Basara Nekki

[Omegablue]

Hikaru, Basara, Shin and Isamu are people we definitely would call douchebags i think if we were to met them in real life.

If Hikaru, Shin and Isamu are douchebags in your world, then I really don't want to meet you.

Basara can't be put with them, because he is just an unrealistic and uncreative piece of writing. He's like a karaoke booth, lots of repetitive noise that requires vast amounts of drinking to endure as nothing is real.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Omegablue

[Reïvaj]

Basara’s dangerous for everybody, he just shoots randomly. The proof? This guy doesn’t look like the enemy:

[ChronoReverse]

Considering what a good shot he is, I'd say he just wanted everyone to listen to his song and stop shooting each other (with deadly munitions).

[Zinjo]

Didn't realize there were so many people who subscribed to submissive mediocrity.

If you're right, then you're right. Who gives a damn about what everyone else thinks? Basara is by far my favorite Macross character because he's not emo, doesn't need to grow up. He's got his crap together.

Just because M7 uses an unconventional dramatic perspective from conventional stories does not diminish its merits. Besides which, Basara as a character does undergo change though out the show. He engaged in a journey of self-discovery that ultimately led him back to the starting point. His beliefs are ultimately justified. If you are looking at end points, then yes, there is no change, but if you are looking at the path he takes then you realized he made a full circle.

Then by all means let us enjoy Basara's reciprocal journey together. At least that is a story worthy of a main character. Basara has already made that journey without us and thus no longer merits the position of main protagonist.

What is more interesting, the finished room or watching someone trying paint it?

Deriding your detractors because they don't subscribe to your position only weakens your point.

An unconventional perspective has merits, but if it distracts from the "actual" drama of a story then it has no place or use in a tale. Every GOOD story is crafted with deliberate purpose to an ultimate moral end (whatever the moral the author has in mind).

Basara as a catalyst supporting character is much more palatable than one that is in your face episode after episode for no worthwhile reason other than to sing a song repeatedly and shoot potentially lethal speaker pods at you (thanks JBO... )...

Edited November 16, 2011 by Zinjo

[Bri]

An unconventional perspective has merits, but if it distracts from the "actual" drama of a story then it has no place or use in a tale. Every GOOD story is crafted with deliberate purpose to an ultimate moral end (whatever the moral the author has in mind).

Basara as a catalyst supporting character is much more palatable than one that is in your face episode after episode for no worthwhile reason other than to sing a song repeatedly and shoot potentially lethal speaker pods at you (thanks JBO... )...

That is assuming that the writers want to tell a story. While Macross 7 has a background storyline in which the events of the conflict with the protodevlin are told, the Firebomber part of the anime has a more slice of life structure where the focus is more on character interaction rather then any kind of plot development. This resembles the modern kuuki-kei (atmospheric type) anime where narrative has become far less important in comparison to character enjoyment.

[knoted]

character enjoyment.

....and Basara in one sentence. For some people that only has relative meaning....

[justvinnie]

Then by all means let us enjoy Basara's reciprocal journey together. At least that is a story worthy of a main character. Basara has already made that journey without us and thus no longer merits the position of main protagonist.

What is more interesting, the finished room or watching someone trying paint it?

Deriding your detractors because they don't subscribe to your position only weakens your point.

An unconventional perspective has merits, but if it distracts from the "actual" drama of a story then it has no place or use in a tale. Every GOOD story is crafted with deliberate purpose to an ultimate moral end (whatever the moral the author has in mind).

Basara as a catalyst supporting character is much more palatable than one that is in your face episode after episode for no worthwhile reason other than to sing a song repeatedly and shoot potentially lethal speaker pods at you (thanks JBO... )...

Oh please, your condescension is weak.

Stories need a moral? I definitely need more proselytizing in my life. I love it when people shove their morals in my face because I'm a nobody with no independent thoughts and beliefs of my own.

Stories need a main protagonist that goes on a journey? So I guess you only like stories that are formulaic and trite.

A well done room is just as enjoyable as a watching the process of it becoming such. If you can't go into a room and enjoy it for what it is, then I pity you and your need to see the process. Besides which, most processes are boring to observe; an understanding of process is just as useful as witnessing it. That is unless you really do enjoy watching paint dry or grass grow.

Whatever, if you want to subscribe to the whole "everyone's opinion matters", then that's up to you. I consciously chose to deride and disdain banal opinions harbored by the mediocre masses. If you (or anyone else) want to take offense to that, then it is ultimately your problem and not mine.

M7 (and by connection Basara) is genius stroke of creativity in terms of setup and concept. It's execution could have been better.

Edited November 16, 2011 by justvinnie

[VF5SS]

I'm not sure if I'd call it a stroke of genius as there have been other protagonists with a heavy stroke of pacifism before Basara, like say Eiji from Layzner for example. Actually most of the things Basara does are fairly logical extensions of how to show what he's doing, to the audience.

His Valkyrie has physical speakers and a light show system to communicate that he's a musician. The Fire Valkyrie has a guitar shaped control stick so he wouldn't look so strange when sitting inside while singing music. The speaker pods deal with the whole "no sound in space" factoid by having a more visceral means of delivering music. It allows for the sponsors to keep the appearance of a robot with a gun while staying inline with the theme of the series. Some of the other aspects to Spiritia and Sound Energy are keeping in line with many popular sci-fi series in Japan.

No worse than tiny bug psychic crystals that live in your stomach :3

Edited November 16, 2011 by VF5SS

[Castel]

I'm not sure if I'd call it a stroke of genius

Haha, no, not really no.

[justvinnie]

I'm not sure if I'd call it a stroke of genius as there have been other protagonists with a heavy stroke of pacifism before Basara, like say Eiji from Layzner for example. Actually most of the things Basara does are fairly logical extensions of how to show what he's doing, to the audience.

His Valkyrie has physical speakers and a light show system to communicate that he's a musician. The Fire Valkyrie has a guitar shaped control stick so he wouldn't look so strange when sitting inside while singing music. The speaker pods deal with the whole "no sound in space" factoid by having a more visceral means of delivering music. It allows for the sponsors to keep the appearance of a robot with a gun while staying inline with the theme of the series. Some of the other aspects to Spiritia and Sound Energy are keeping in line with many popular sci-fi series in Japan.

No worse than tiny bug psychic crystals that live in your stomach :3

You've been on this board for as long as I can remember. Your posts have always been reasonable so I don't know if you missed my point or have instigated a straw man attack.

My premise is that the use of nontraditional story elements in M7 is genius. Basara as a pacifist is of no relevant issue to me nor does the manner in which he expresses it. I myself do not subscribe to pacifism. What interests me in Basara is that he is a protagonist that defies the common role that many protagonists take one: reluctant anti-hero, quest of self discovery, etc... Basara has already developed and is settled in-universe such that there is no reason for him to change. This sets the stage of interesting interactions between him and his peers. That he does doubt himself at all due to peer pressure is realistic he ends up exactly where he started. He is a hero for the fact that he holds steadfastly to his belief system. He represents extremem individualism and is what I consider a relevant version of the traditional Greek hero achetype.

That M7 stirs both people's ire and adoration is proof enough to me of its creative genius.

[VF5SS]

You've been on this board for as long as I can remember. Your posts have always been reasonable so I don't know if you missed my point or have instigated a straw man attack.

dude i don't even known anymore

That M7 stirs both people's ire and adoration is proof enough to me of its creative genius.

sho 'nuff

I just wish we were passed all the hate threads. Those were dark times. The time of the Agentonepire.

[Radd]

I don't know that Basara is unique in that regard. Leiji Matsumoto's iconic "Captain Herlock" fits the bill as a character who has already grown into his role and everyone else is along for the ride. This works well in Herlock as the audience is given Tadashi Daiba, the typical rash young hero, to relate to and watch grow. Similarly, we're given Mylene and Gamlin in Macross 7 to fill that role.

Personally, Captain Herlock is among my favourite anime characters, and favourite stories, of all time, despite his lack of "character development".

[VF5SS]

It's kind of funny that even Basara's backstory shows him being exactly the same as he is during the series. Just sometimes he's a little kid with the his adult hair and sometimes he's a little kid with regular hair :x

[Killer Robot]

It's kind of funny that even Basara's backstory shows him being exactly the same as he is during the series. Just sometimes he's a little kid with the his adult hair and sometimes he's a little kid with regular hair :x

I can't really fault Basara (or his writers) so much for that. Almost any teenage/young adult anime character shown as a child in a flashback is either going to be "exactly how they are now only smaller" or "exactly how they are now only more carefree and/or with simpler hair." Sheryl's more the exception there, I guess.

[VF5SS]

Oh I was more referring to how in episode 49 of the show he's got his regular big hair as a child and in the Encore episode he's got more normal hair and doesn't wear his trademark tank top.

Just silly little things.

[Zinjo]

Oh please, your condescension is weak.

Stories need a moral? I definitely need more proselytizing in my life. I love it when people shove their morals in my face because I'm a nobody with no independent thoughts and beliefs of my own.

Stories need a main protagonist that goes on a journey? So I guess you only like stories that are formulaic and trite.

A well done room is just as enjoyable as a watching the process of it becoming such. If you can't go into a room and enjoy it for what it is, then I pity you and your need to see the process. Besides which, most processes are boring to observe; an understanding of process is just as useful as witnessing it. That is unless you really do enjoy watching paint dry or grass grow.

Whatever, if you want to subscribe to the whole "everyone's opinion matters", then that's up to you. I consciously chose to deride and disdain banal opinions harbored by the mediocre masses. If you (or anyone else) want to take offense to that, then it is ultimately your problem and not mine.

M7 (and by connection Basara) is genius stroke of creativity in terms of setup and concept. It's execution could have been better.

Condescension? Was I not paying attention at that undefined moment?

A moral (from Latin morālis) is a message conveyed or a lesson to be learned from a story or event.

Morals do not automatically mean Morality, oops did someone just learn something banal, mediocre and new...

sto·ry a narrative, either true or ficticious, in a prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse or instruct the hearer or reader; tale

I weep for the next generation with the current education system

Choosing to "deride and disdain banal opinions" is the purest form of empty arrogance in people today. It is the evidence that one has become willfully ignorant of anything beyond their own opinions and that is quite sad. However, each is entitled to be what they are. Attacking others because they disagree with your opinions is unfortunate.

I could make comments that could start a flame war, but I like it here too much to go there...

I agree that much of what comes out of the Hollywood movie mills is definitely formulaic and trite, but M7 did not buck that convention, instead, just as so many other self professed "avante guarde" film makers do, they forced the audience to endure a supporting character thrust into the role of lead. Mainly because they didn't understand the basic principles of story construction.

It isn't genius or "new" it is bad writing, plain and simple. What was mundane and banal was watching a main character do the same things over and over and over again for nearly 49 episodes. Oh wait, after we got to the point where we nearly hated the song he was repeating, we would get a new one to listen to over and over again...

Transposing one's love of Basara's music into some sort of evidence that the series was NOT poorly structured berays a basic lack of understanding of how story and tales are told.

[ChronoReverse]

I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking that the only way characters can be interesting along with their story is along the path of character development and being identifiable with (i.e., have something in common with).

This seems to be particular prevalent in North American audiences but considering the popularity of Macross 7 in Japan, clearly that's not the only way a character can be interesting.

I liked Macross 7 a lot and even the character of Nekki Basara was appealing. My own beliefs aren't actually in line with him and I really have nothing in common with him besides the desire for peace (and even then I'm not a staunch pacifist). And as you noted, his character doesn't really change much during the course of the show. Still, that's not sufficient to make him a bad or a boring character to me; it's just not his development that interests me.

Things like character development and being sympathetic to the audience are simply tools that can be used to make a character interesting. However, the lack of such doesn't necessarily make such characters boring or bad. It's too often the case that characters are judged as such on the basis of the former to the point where the character really does become terrible to the judger.

Basically the pre-existing biases has made such characters unenjoyable to you and it's really too bad.

Edited November 17, 2011 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

wow, that's a huge leap. There's plenty of characters that go through no character development that "north american" audiences like very much. Such as Captain Jack Sparrow or Morpheus (as he is in the first Marix movie). American "sit-coms" were designed around characters that didn't grow or change through hundreds of episodes. James Bond, until the recent Daniel Craig era, had no real character arc either.

The difference is, those characters are all interesting.. Basara is not.

[ChronoReverse]

wow, that's a huge leap. There's plenty of characters that go through no character development that "north american" audiences like very much. Such as Captain Jack Sparrow or Morpheus (as he is in the first Marix movie). American "sit-coms" were designed around characters that didn't grow or change through hundreds of episodes. James Bond, until the recent Daniel Craig era, had no real character arc either.

The difference is, those characters are all interesting.. Basara is not.

Eh, I was more referring to a common trend of labeling characters uninteresting because they don't undergo development. I was also snidely being snarky about those who try to be "refined" by using such arguments since clearly even characters that aren't developed can be interesting (which was the entire point so thanks for more examples).

As for Basara, he might not be interesting to everyone, but clearly he's interesting to many if even the non-jp poll here is split down the middle.

Edited November 17, 2011 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

I don't see how I could have misunderstood. Maybe it was when you said:

I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking that the only way characters can be interesting along with their story is along the path of character development and being identifiable with (i.e., have something in common with).

This seems to be particular prevalent in North American audiences but considering the popularity of Macross 7 in Japan, clearly that's not the only way a character can be interesting.

The fact that there are several popular characters and franchises based around those characters that resonate with "north american" audiences seems to disprove your entire point that disliking Basara has something to do with a cultural bias.

[ChronoReverse]

"Particularly prevalent" doesn't mean "all".

If I didn't phrase it so that you understood that I meant that this is especially common here then I apologize and will make clear that it's what I meant.

That is, the argument seems thrown around often as if "no character development" == "boring character".

[knoted]

That is, the argument seems thrown around often as if "no character development" == "boring character".

Not really.

A story about some creepy serial killer might show zero charcter development too, as the killer is trapped in an endless loop of his own sick mind...but the big difference is that this character might be written in such an interesting way as if the audience were observing this guy in documentary manner.

The ones that don't like Basara basically agree on this thing : he annoys the heck out of people.

[ff95gj]

War time. Enemies invade your home. Kill your friends.

Men defend homes. Then there is this guy, running out among enemy and friendly fires, and insists to sing in the middle of the battle, thinking THAT would end a war.

Oh also, one of the enemies is an alien vampiress. He finds her in deep sleep. For whatever reason, he tries hard to wake her up.............

Sorry, I can't make out any logic in these. That's one big reason I don't like Basara.

[Keith]

War time. Enemies invade your home. Kill your friends.

Men defend homes. Then there is this guy, running out among enemy and friendly fires, and insists to sing in the middle of the battle, thinking THAT would end a war.

Oh also, one of the enemies is an alien vampiress. He finds her in deep sleep. For whatever reason, he tries hard to wake her up.............

Sorry, I can't make out any logic in these. That's one big reason I don't like Basara.

Fortunately, that's a wildly inaccuracte description of 7. Regardless, hater's gonna hate, but Basara doesn't care if you like him or not, he's not singing for you!

[Gubaba]

Fortunately, that's a wildly inaccuracte description of 7. Regardless, hater's gonna hate, but Basara doesn't care if you like him or not, he's not singing for you!

Yes, he is. He's singing ESPECIALLY for such people.

[Bri]

War time. Enemies invade your home. Kill your friends.

Men defend homes. Then there is this guy, running out among enemy and friendly fires, and insists to sing in the middle of the battle, thinking THAT would end a war.

Oh also, one of the enemies is an alien vampiress. He finds her in deep sleep. For whatever reason, he tries hard to wake her up.............

Sorry, I can't make out any logic in these. That's one big reason I don't like Basara.

It's not too different from a journalist taking pictures or filming during combat. They may seem out of place in the middle of a battle but their work can influence a war. In Macross it's a musician. Basara is out there with full permission of fleet command.

As for waking the pretty alien girl, well that's just narrative causality at work...

[Castel]

Then there is this guy, running out among enemy and friendly fires, and insists to sing in the middle of the battle, thinking THAT would end a war.

That's one of the main problem with this character. Everything about him is kind of ridiculous. You just can't take him seriously or really listen to him without laughing.

Well, like a lot of other things concerning M7.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Castel

[Bri]

That's one of the main problem with this character. Everything about him is kind of ridiculous. You just can't take him seriously or really listen to him without laughing.

Well, like a lot of other things concerning M7.

How does that make Basara and Macross 7 any different from the other Macross shows? They are all kind of ridiculous. Frontier pushed the envelope of believability at least a far as M7 ever did.

[JB0]

Basara as a catalyst supporting character is much more palatable than one that is in your face episode after episode for no worthwhile reason other than to sing a song repeatedly and shoot potentially lethal speaker pods at you (thanks JBO... )...

No problem.

And for clarification, I really DO think Basara is oblivious enough that he genuinely didn't realize the speakerpods were potentially hazardous projectiles.

He's a very... focused... individual. He just thought it was so great that he could share his song with everyone and got caught up enough in it that he never stopped to think about the implications. Hell, he may not even realize they're designed to punch holes in armor. For all we know, he thinks they're tiny little radio buoys.

I do admit the series has it's moments. Even Basara-centric moments.

While in general I don't like how the series ended, I thought Basara's coma recovery was perfect. It's a very Basara scene. Especially the part where he starts trying to sing WHILE IN A COMA... only Basara...

It also serves as a decent showcase for Gamlin and Mylene, and is really the final capstone on a long-running arc showing Gamlin accepting Basara(if not actually LIKING him), but that's actually not what primarily interests me in the scene. Amazingly, it's a scene I think Basara SHOULD steal.

I just think a lot of moments that shouldn't have been ABOUT Basara wound up being about Basara.

Also, I found the Encore episodes on my hard drive a few days ago. Encore 1 is largely a gossip show trying to dig up back-story on Fire Bomber and Basara.

While it's framed in such a way as to make pretty much EVERYTHING in it questionable, almost to the point of being anticanon, it's got some good Basara moments in it.

They even play off his passion for music to make a small gesture much larger in-context. (you know, assuming it'd ever actually HAPPENED)

And Ray gets some character development!(or would if a single word they said was trustworthy)

It's actually pretty fun, and though I see why it wouldn't work in the series proper, I wish something more had been made of the idea. Maybe break it out and do a series of short gossip show segments scattered through the regular episodes. It's a way to add some depth(?) to the main character without really breaking the feel of the show.

[VF5SS]

Men defend homes. Then there is this guy, running out among enemy and friendly fires, and insists to sing in the middle of the battle, thinking THAT would end a war.

Well with regards to Macross, it sure worked twice before

Oh also, one of the enemies is an alien vampiress. He finds her in deep sleep. For whatever reason, he tries hard to wake her up.............

Showing compassion to one's enemies isn't entirely out of left field in fiction, let a lone in Macross.

Max comes across an enemy pilot who killed many of his comrades (and tries to shank him) and within the span of maybe five minutes he marries her.

The result of Basara's actions towards Sivil were in part responsible for saving the entire Macross 7 fleet on at least one occasion.

[justvinnie]

Congratulations, you have demonstrated that you know how to use the internet. So how long did it take you to craft this “witty” response?

I love the fact that you quoted Wikipedia (which you forgot to cite, by the way). I am going to guess that none of your teachers have taught you that Wikipedia is never an appropriate reference source. I also love your attempt at slyness, underhandedly attacking my academic background, which you are completely ignorant about. Indeed, I do pity the educational system that produced you. Fortunately, I am actually doing something about it and educating whole new generations that there is a difference between having information and critical thinking about it.

By your own assertion (via Wikipedia), a moral “is a message conveyed or a lesson to be learned from a story or event.” If you continue reading the entry, you will see that, “Throughout the history of recorded literature, the majority of fictional writing has served not only to entertain but also to instruct, inform or improve their audiences or readership.” Indeed, a moral is meant to instruct and/or enlighten the audience through the lesson or message it conveys. I imply that I do not need art that is trying to force its message down my throat or try to enlighten me because I am an independent thinking human with my own world view. Instead of addressing my point, you created a straw man by implicating that I somehow meant to say that morals and morality were one and the same. A semantic debate about morals and morality, while possibly entertaining, is not something I have any desire to engage in.

Choosing to "deride and disdain banal opinions" is the purest form of empty arrogance in people today. It is the evidence that one has become willfully ignorant of anything beyond their own opinions and that is quite sad. However, each is entitled to be what they are. Attacking others because they disagree with your opinions is unfortunate.

I mince no words to make my position clear with regards to how I view the general masses. It amuses me that in attempting to chastise me from your moral high ground, you have rendered judgment on me and thus are no better than I am from your own moral code. Since I have no problems with my own world view, I have no problems with your judgment, though your own hypocrisy should force a re-evaluation of your world view. This is a perennial problem for people who subscribe to a slave moral code. The masses are mediocre (rightly so by definition) and if a member of the masses wishes to garner my respect, they will have to earn it through their own merits. I need not and seek not the acceptance of people who are not my intellectual equivalents. Furthermore, you operate on the assumption that all opinions are equivalent, when there are in fact not. I also noted how you chose to ignore my argument regarding aesthetic appreciation of the product without the benefit of witnessing the process.

Have you ever considered going to college so you don't embarrass yourself so much? Maybe you can even register for one of my classes.

As a source of personal entertainment and diversion from my daily routine, you have run dry. I have no need nor desire to prove myself to you. Therefore, you are now nothing to me.

[justvinnie]

I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking that the only way characters can be interesting along with their story is along the path of character development and being identifiable with (i.e., have something in common with).

This seems to be particular prevalent in North American audiences but considering the popularity of Macross 7 in Japan, clearly that's not the only way a character can be interesting.

I liked Macross 7 a lot and even the character of Nekki Basara was appealing. My own beliefs aren't actually in line with him and I really have nothing in common with him besides the desire for peace (and even then I'm not a staunch pacifist). And as you noted, his character doesn't really change much during the course of the show. Still, that's not sufficient to make him a bad or a boring character to me; it's just not his development that interests me.

Things like character development and being sympathetic to the audience are simply tools that can be used to make a character interesting. However, the lack of such doesn't necessarily make such characters boring or bad. It's too often the case that characters are judged as such on the basis of the former to the point where the character really does become terrible to the judger.

Basically the pre-existing biases has made such characters unenjoyable to you and it's really too bad.

Indeed, stories can be placed on a continuum between character and plot driven. A story with a well executed plot is just as enjoyable as character pieces. Character development is but just one way for stories to develop.

I don't know that Basara is unique in that regard. Leiji Matsumoto's iconic "Captain Herlock" fits the bill as a character who has already grown into his role and everyone else is along for the ride. This works well in Herlock as the audience is given Tadashi Daiba, the typical rash young hero, to relate to and watch grow. Similarly, we're given Mylene and Gamlin in Macross 7 to fill that role.

Personally, Captain Herlock is among my favourite anime characters, and favourite stories, of all time, despite his lack of "character development".

An early life encounter with pirates has left me biased against pirate based entertainment. While I am peripherally aware of Captain Herlock and Matsumoto's status within the anime subculture, I choose not to partake. That is my own shortcoming, and I am sure that your assessment is correct.

[Gubaba]

An early life encounter with pirates has left me biased against pirate based entertainment.

That sounds like it would be a lot more interesting tale than anything else going on in this thread...

Edited November 18, 2011 by Gubaba

[Renato]

Therefore, you are now nothing to me.

Jesus.

[VF5SS]

Come on people

sheesh