Transending the Protoculture

[I_Fly_For_Firebomber]

Okay.

In Frontier evil glasses girl who I am not even going to bother trying to spell the name of here goes on about transcending the protoculture. Unfortunately my subs are a bit dodgy on that episode (and only that episode) so I might as well have been reading "All your base are belong to us."

I guess what I am asking is...

HOW?

What exactly was it that she thought would allow humanity to transcend the protoculture?

From what I saw of them in Macross-7 they seemed pretty advanced and what was it about the Vajra that would allow humanity to become the next evolution of mankind. Like, other than gaining the obviously godlike destructive power of being plugged into a giant space bug... what had she accomplished?

I could see what was happening but so much did not make sense (with regard to her motives and goals).

Also, why the hell did she smile when she died? It's like she wanted Alto to kill her. The whole thing just puzzles me.

[sketchley]

I don't have the source material on hand, and keeping in mind that subtitles, in general, are dodgy, as about half the meaning is lost in translation. Period.

... I believe she's referring to attaining control of the Vajra, and manipulating (using might be a better word) them for galactic dominance. This is something that is stated in MF that the Protocultures were never able to do.

Why did she smile when she died? It was her chance to get away from it all (stealing a line from Star Trek II) . Seriously, if I understood things correctly and memory serves, the bad guys were using the Vajra for a universe-wide instantaneously communicating group mind. IMHO, her smiling indicates relieve that she (or they) will be separate from each other and there failed experiment with group-think has failed in such a way that it won't be attempted.

[Gubaba]

I don't have the source material on hand, and keeping in mind that subtitles, in general, are dodgy, as about half the meaning is lost in translation. Period.

... I believe she's referring to attaining control of the Vajra, and manipulating (using might be a better word) them for galactic dominance. This is something that is stated in MF that the Protocultures were never able to do.

I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but I thought it had more to do with overcoming the problem of Fold Faults and creating truly instantaneous travel and communication.

Of course, having that involves control of the Vajra, hence why I think we may be in agreement...

[sketchley]

I'm pretty sure controlling the Vajra was the character's main point.

Nevertheless, it is true that overcoming fold dislocations and galaxy-wide instantaneous communication are huge advancements over Protoculture technology. That said, the only reason I think the answer should be focused on controlling the Vajra is because Protoculture and human technology is vastly different. Basically, despite humans having mastered variable fighter technology, ISC, so on and so forth, the Protoculture have achieved a level of genetic engineering that human technology hasn't even scratched the surface of.

Edited September 29, 2011 by sketchley

[Gubaba]

I'm pretty sure controlling the Vajra was the character's main point.

Nevertheless, it is true that overcoming fold dislocations and galaxy-wide instantaneous communication are huge advancements over Protoculture technology. That said, the only reason I think the answer should be focused on controlling the Vajra is because Protoculture and human technology is vastly different. Basically, despite humans having mastered variable fighter technology, ISC, so on and so forth, the Protoculture have achieved a level of genetic engineering that human technology hasn't even scratched the surface of.

That's true...but I don't see how controlling the Vajra gives mankind access to such genetic manipulation. The only reason why controlling the Vajra seemed advantageous (in my understanding at least) was because of the Fold Quartz... or am I missing something?

[sketchley]

? I don't think I indirectly or directly implied that controlling the Vajra equates to attaining genetic manipulation.

Anyhow, the controlling fold quartz is basically the point that I've basically been trying to convey.

So... in the end, I think we both think that we think we are agreeing with each other. Or something like that.

[Gubaba]

So... in the end, I think we both think that we think we are agreeing with each other. Or something like that.

That sounds fine to me. Controlling the Vajra = Better than Protoculture.

[azrael]

To the OP, her name is Grace O'Connor. And if a CERTAIN OTHER mod finds out you can't remember her name, you'll only wish he would ban you.

And apparently 2 people in this world didn't drink any coffee when they wrote that...

It goes back to Protoculture revering and fearing the Vajra. Protoculture spent so much time emulating the abilities of the Vajra but they never transcended them. Grace wanted humanity to do that. Humanity gained most of Protoculture's technology but they were limited by what Protoculture did. By linking with the Vajra and using them, humanity would have gone that 1-step above what Protoculture never did.

[Gubaba]

To the OP, her name is Grace O'Connor. And if a CERTAIN OTHER mod finds out you can't remember her name, you'll only wish he would ban you.

What was that other surname you threw at me a few months ago...? Thanks, Macross the Ride...

[Zinjo]

It goes back to Protoculture revering and fearing the Vajra. Protoculture spent so much time emulating the abilities of the Vajra but they never transcended them. Grace wanted humanity to do that. Humanity gained most of Protoculture's technology but they were limited by what Protoculture did. By linking with the Vajra and using them, humanity would have gone that 1-step above what Protoculture never did.

How can we say "Humanity gained most of Protoculture's technology", when we know genetic engineering in the Macross Galaxy Network is still essentially in it's infantcy. Humanity only recently discovered what fold quartz is for and much of what the PC actually knew has been lost to antiquity. I agree humanity has nearly mastered variable technologies, however I am doubtful they are at the level the PC were at the height of their power.

It is my belief that the potential of the instantaneous communication offered by the Vajara hive mind may have been the reason for the PC civil war in the first place. The potential threat that would pose to freedom loving citizens would be incredible.

[frothymug]

I opened a thread a few months ago about how there are a lot of similarities between humanity and the PC. The story the Mayan islanders tell about how "a huge turtle shell dropped from the sky and hit a rock. The pieces then became the island of Mayan." I noticed on the last episode of Frontier, how when the Island-1 carrier landed in the ocean, it very much resembled a huge turtle shell.

Also, there was the prophecy of the arrival of the Birdmen, and how it would signal the end of humanity. Did the protoculture also use variable fighters? Did the ancient Humans only see them as their giant mecha-forms, or were the protoculture actually part bird, part humanoid?

[Zinjo]

Also, there was the prophecy of the arrival of the Birdmen, and how it would signal the end of humanity. Did the protoculture also use variable fighters? Did the ancient Humans only see them as their giant mecha-forms, or were the protoculture actually part bird, part humanoid?

The PC did use variable mecha, only it was bio-mecha like the AFOS. Whether they started out like humanity with metal mecha is open to speculation I supose.

[Killer Robot]

I would also add that the Galaxy plan ultimately involved also transcending the individual through implant linkage and control. True instantaneous communication was one step to that. This would also, if truly achieved, transcend the Protoculture still being made out of individuals capable of falling into war among themselves, if at the cost of human freedom.

[Reïvaj]

I would also add that the Galaxy plan ultimately involved also transcending the individual through implant linkage and control. True instantaneous communication was one step to that. This would also, if truly achieved, transcend the Protoculture still being made out of individuals capable of falling into war among themselves, if at the cost of human freedom.

I think that’s the right answer to the thread’s theme. And Azrael’s as well.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I thought it had something to do with mind control and gaining ultimate knowledge.

[Reïvaj]

I thought it had something to do with mind control and gaining ultimate knowledge.

It is about mind control, transcending the PC in a rather selfish way for it wouldn’t be “mind control for everybody” but “mind control over everybody”.

I don’t think it’s about gaining ultimate knowledge, but if you are interested in that subject you’ll find some stuff here:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=33075

[taksraven]

This is all, of course, impossible.

[Reïvaj]

This is all, of course, impossible.

What do you mean? Didn’t noticed, I guess most of us around want to believe.

[valkyriechild]

So, is it right to assume that this transcending protoculture doesn't really happen in the end, and humans still only following the remnants of protoculture relics along the way?

What about fold quartz instantanious travel and communication? Did the protoculture have this technology?

[Jasonc]

So, is it right to assume that this transcending protoculture doesn't really happen in the end, and humans still only following the remnants of protoculture relics along the way?

What about fold quartz instantanious travel and communication? Did the protoculture have this technology?

I don't think that question is really answered. Also, there seemed to be 3 groups that had their own directives in the story. One seemed to be Grace and her other mental entities that wanted to control the Vajra and create a universe where humans transcended their static bodies, and could know all, and have a type of omnipotence that the PC didn't have. There's Mr. Bilrer (sp?), who wanted to use the physical aspects of the Vajra, to create a monopoly on shipping, transportation, and information sharing, by being able to use their fold quartz to negate the fold faults. Then there's the people like Ozma, Alto, and the heroes, who want to save and preserve humanity as it is, and create peace for all the races. At least that's my quick take on it. It's been awhile since I last watched through it all, but I think that's some of the bare bones of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Radd]

"Why did Grace smile at the end?" It wasn't so much a smile as the transition from despair to resignation.

[frothymug]

She was thinking, "Well played, sir. Well played."

[Reïvaj]

She smiles at Alto and thinks “You think you’re killing me but I´m going to reload my mind into a new body right after you fire; I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again! Bwahahaha!!!

[VF-15 Banshee]

Naw, she was thinking, "Did I leave the iron on?"

[frothymug]

She smiles at Alto and thinks “You think you’re killing me but I´m going to reload my mind into a new body right after you fire; I’ve done it before and I’ll do it again! Bwahahaha!!!

^ this

It's kind of the natural progression to take, if one were to try writing a sequel to the series, wink wink, nudge nudge.

[VFTF1]

I think Grace meant attaining a supra-rational onto-dialectical synergy that is beyond good and evil and no longer bound by the modals of yesteryear. The protoculture's insistance on building the perfect civilization by effectively seeding ever new worlds with "the experiment" in the hopes that "this time" it would work only guaranteed everlasting melancholy and infinite sorrow. Had Grace succeeded she would have effectively brought about the end of inter-dimmensional history since in both theory and practice all dimmensions woul be equally attainable at the same time. This in turn would have effectively anihhilated all distinctions between realms of being and becoming.

Pete

[VF-15 Banshee]

Hmm I always thought that whole "becoming one in all of space and time through the Vajra" was more of a side-bonus to Grace and what she really wanted was revenge against the Vajra.

[VFTF1]

Hmm I always thought that whole "becoming one in all of space and time through the Vajra" was more of a side-bonus to Grace and what she really wanted was revenge against the Vajra.

Oh yeah - there's that too. Although, I always thought the hatred was radically illogical. Either the Vajra were a) non-sentient bug-life that acted on instinct and therefore could not be "hated" in the sense that it wasn't really as if they "chose" to be "evil" towards Grace and burn her or b) were sentient beings - and therefore were individually resopnsible for their actions (in spite of of the collective interface communications between them and their swarm like nature, it is physically imopssible - I think - to "blame" "all" the Vajra for the actions of SOME Vajra. Look at Ai kun - while it's true that he was drawn to the swarm and generally respondant by nature to it, he was also - as an individual - uniquely tied to Ranka - able to demonstrate that the Vajra were sentient as individuals.

Pete

[Einherjar]

Well, Grace was human at one time, and the things we do are pretty illogical sometimes. She did lose her humanity and became pretty much a Cylon because of the Vajra too.

[RedWolf]

The way I see it the Protoculture limited themselves.

How? They never messed with fold capable aliens like the Vajra and Galactic Wales.

The Protoculture admired and emulated the Vajra but never went to control them. Even during their civil war.

In short the Protoculture feared the Vajra. The Vajra has taken for granted technological limitations of the Protoculture. Instant no time lag fold and communication. The Vajra also has rapid adaption to weaponry.

Thus the whole Bird Human test makes sense. If Humans went out in space and brought their warlike tendencies with them inevitably they are going to piss off the wrong aliens.

It turns out corporate transhumanist cyborgs of Macross Galaxy were stupid and daring enough to try to control the Vajra. Their vision is to unite the galaxy under their rule. Surpassing the Protoculture's Stellar Republic. Only this time descent means instantaneous death.

Edited October 24, 2011 by RedWolf

[Keith]

To be fair, we don't know that the Protoculture didn't try to control the Vajra. The fact that they adapt to weapons so quickly may imply that they already fought with the Protoculture to develope their current level of combat ability. Perhaps the Protoculture were just smart enough to see that they weren't going to win that particular arms race. As for the Ginga Kujira, their ties with Zola may well imply that like the Zolans, they were engineered/altered by the Protoculture. They at the very least seemed to be Zola's version of the AFOS test.

Then when it comes down to it, maybe humans are just better hackers than the Protoculture were, and they never thought to wire one of their own into the Vajra network as a bridge.

[RedWolf]

As for the Ginga Kujira, their ties with Zola may well imply that like the Zolans, they were engineered/altered by the Protoculture. They at the very least seemed to be Zola's version of the AFOS test.

From the ancient script said the White Whale is a million years old. Older than Protoculture civilization. I'd like to think that while the Vajra Queen is the original source of the Bird Human in the Mayan myths the White Whale would be the Fish Human. The ancestors or Protoculture on Zola considers the White Whale a god. This would suggest the Protoculture could be Animists in their religion.

Edited October 25, 2011 by RedWolf

[Zinjo]

We can speculate if the PC had a religion or were merely agnostics. We simply don't know. We could also speculate the Fish Human was actually a Dolphin and not the ape as Darwinians believe...

Fold quartz could have been a common component in all Zentradi cap ships, they wouldn't know what it was for. Since humanity likes to tinker with things, it didn't see any use for fold quartz so they might have removed it in subsequent upgrades to fold engines thus creating the limitations of Fold Faults inadvertently.

Prior to MF, fold faults were never mentioned.

[TehPW]

We can speculate if the PC had a religion or were merely agnostics. We simply don't know. We could also speculate the Fish Human was actually a Dolphin and not the ape as Darwinians believe...

Fold quartz could have been a common component in all Zentradi cap ships, they wouldn't know what it was for. Since humanity likes to tinker with things, it didn't see any use for fold quartz so they might have removed it in subsequent upgrades to fold engines thus creating the limitations of Fold Faults inadvertently.

Prior to MF, fold faults were never mentioned.

well, the RL answer is they made things up as they moved along. in anime terms, its a issue never before encountered as for as humans are concerned...

[RedWolf]

We can speculate if the PC had a religion or were merely agnostics. We simply don't know. We could also speculate the Fish Human was actually a Dolphin and not the ape as Darwinians believe...

Fold quartz could have been a common component in all Zentradi cap ships, they wouldn't know what it was for. Since humanity likes to tinker with things, it didn't see any use for fold quartz so they might have removed it in subsequent upgrades to fold engines thus creating the limitations of Fold Faults inadvertently.

Prior to MF, fold faults were never mentioned.

MF ep prologue said fold faults are the limitation of all Protoculture derived civilizations.Considering their arms escalation which resulted to the Evil series and the Protodevlin entering our space even the Zentradi hence their Protoculture masters didn't conquer fold faults as it was a different avenue.

Humans and associated races inherited Protoculture technology and made their own improvements.

The reason fold faults weren't mentioned in prior media is that Shoji Kawamori likes to add new things to his current projects.

Edited October 28, 2011 by RedWolf