Thoughts on Macross II

[Variable_Queadlunn]

M2 was sadly a case of the whole being less than the sum of the parts

characer designs by Mikimoto- great

the VF-2 -IMO one of the most beautiful macross related mecha designs ever- great

soundtrack- great

add it all together.... meh! average at best

Mac + was totally the oposite-

the VF-11 was the only mech design i saw before it's release- didn't do anything for me looked weak and buggy- with a sheild?

what the H*** was up with those pointy noses in the character sketches?

Who the hell is Yokko Kano?

but add it all together and it was nothing but awesome!

[Gubaba]

But the people doing the complaining still generally accepted that Macross 7 was a legitimate Macross title... while the Macross II OVA and its satellite titles still get the dismissive treatment it did ten years ago, regardless of quality, often simply because it didn't come from Kawamori. The worst part, at least in my opinion, is that a fair number of the criticisms leveled at Macross II's setting (as illustrated by Valkyrie addict) stem from having practically every piece of intermediate material connecting Macross II to DYRL fail to make it across with the series.

But, if it's not clear in the series, isn't that A PROBLEM with the series? If you need to hunt out issues of B-Club in order to bolster defense for a show, that generally means the show can't really defend itself.

[VF5SS]

Yeah that's the same defense people used for the prequels and the terrible villain in Star Trek 11.

[Freiflug88]

IMO Macross II works best as an alternate universe where the NUNS didn't follow Global's orders to colonize other worlds. After all its amusing to see how the UN spacey has taken the Zentradi fleet mentality and gone beam cannon crazy at the expense of basic space tactics.

Also is it me or was the UN Spacey fleet actually capable of out-gunning the entire Marduk fleet in a straight up firefight? Cause it looks to me like the UN Spacey had no problem against the Marduk fleet until their main force of Macross Cannons and their flagship Gloria were outflanked and swarmed by hordes of battle pods and mecha.

[Seto Kaiba]

Even if his questions were vitriol I'd be curious about the real answers to them.

kk, I'll furnish you with the answers when I get back from dinner.

IMO Macross II works best as an alternate universe where the NUNS didn't follow Global's orders to colonize other worlds.

Um... the UN Spacy in Macross II's alternate universe DID follow Global's orders to seek out and colonize other worlds... they never launched ships as colossal as those of the main universe, but they were launching colony fleets on a regular basis using both Macross and Megaroad-class colony ships for fifty years. They only stopped after the Zentradi caught one of their fleets shortly after it left the Sol system, and tracked it back to where it'd come from, leading to a second major Space War almost as destructive as the first one.

Also is it me or was the UN Spacey fleet actually capable of out-gunning the entire Marduk fleet in a straight up firefight? Cause it looks to me like the UN Spacey had no problem against the Marduk fleet until their main force of Macross Cannons and their flagship Gloria were outflanked and swarmed by hordes of battle pods and mecha.

Very likely, yes... had the Mardook not resorted to kamikaze attacks, the UN Spacy would probably have been able to use the massive firepower of their Macross Cannons to level the field considerably.

[Alexander Del Sua]

Damn those witty, flank-happy suicide bombers. They always mess up the big guns.

[Penguin]

Dunno if I'd call a suicide bomber "witty"... especially in the Macross II example where they're driven to it by musically-triggered psychological conditioning. Their commanders have the tactical brains... best the bombers could hope for is "dedicated" (or in the Mac II case, "helplessly manipulated").

[Seto Kaiba]

Even if his questions were vitriol I'd be curious about the real answers to them.

... and here we go:

EDIT: Gonna have to put 11-21 into a separate post after a little while, the forum keeps trying to merge my posts and it puts it over the limit of allowed quote tags.

1. WTH? 80 years, they haven't leave Earth and still rely on a mediocre version of a "Minmei attack".

Just because the story of the Macross II OVA is set on Earth doesn't mean there's no colonization program... for a little over 50 of those 80 years, the Macross II alternate universe's UN Spacy was launching colony fleets on a regular basis using Macross and Megaroad-class ships. The colony fleets never got as big as the ones in the main Macross universe, but they did launch a lot of them. As I mentioned earlier, they only stopped after a colony fleet that'd just been launched in 2054 blundered into a massive Zentradi armada shortly after leaving the Sol system, and the Zentradi traced its fold jump back to Earth and attacked... leading to a second, massively destructive space war that decimated the UN Spacy's fleets.

Now, as far as continuing to rely on the Minmay Attack goes... isn't that rather a case of the pot calling the kettle black? The UN Spacy and New UN Spacy of the main Macross timeline do it too. Macross 7's Sound Force had, as its origins, an attempt to improve the Minmay Attack's effectiveness (as a weapon), and spent the entire time trying to beat giant space monsters by rocking out in their general direction and, later, zapping them with a beam made out of songs. In Macross Frontier, the Minmay Attack was the first thing that Leon leaped to suggest when the Vajra attacked, and then eventually turned out to be what turned the Vajra against Grace in the end. Hell, Frontier even did the giant space hologram girl thing.

2. During the initial attack, why the hell did the flagship fold right in the line of fire to be immediately destroyed?.

This is laid out pretty bluntly in the OVA itself, but the answer is "Because the UN Spacy thought they were up against the Zentradi, and had therefore planned for the fight to be a pushover like their previous encounters had been." It was, as Hibiki and Dennis point out, mostly about the spectacle for propaganda purposes.

3. When Hibiki got into the enemy vessel before kidnapping Ishtar, who the hell conveniently destroyed the suit that was going to attack them?.

Considering the ship had already been hit hard enough to have several massive, gaping holes large enough to comfortably fly a fighter into, I'd guess either an ammo storage area or power system blowing up... or perhaps the ship suffered another big hit.

4. Kidnapping Ishtar, drugging her to remain calm and following with a camera filming everything she does is not creepy at all

When did Hibiki drug her? He gave her a glass of water... it even helpfully says "WATER" on the bottle in English. (Oh, and the modern news media has never done ANYTHING creepy... no sir. They'd never hack the phone of a dead person and disrupt a police investigation into a murder, or, say, hound a famous person until they get into a car crash and die...)

5. When Isthar escapes Hibikis apartment to find the Alus, she didn't go trough the front door, apparently she got away trough the balcony, but we get a shot of how fvcking high the balcony is, so...wtf??

You're assuming she didn't go out the door... they don't, in fact, show how she got out, but Hibiki was plenty distracted tearing into Matsui, so there's plenty of opportunity for her to exit stage left by any number of means.

6. To Isthar, an orchestral symphony is torture.

Eh... there are a couple symphonies that I consider to be torture too, but that's beside the point. The music that sets her off like that isn't orchestral, it's initially and principally that idiot with the goofy hair's metal, mixed with other stuff from the televisions behind her. I don't see how you could even confuse the two genres of music. There's not a lot of middle ground between classical and metal.

7. What....the...fvck...are energy surges from the Macross?

Exactly what it says on the tin?

Seriously, the Macross may have been retired from active duty decades before, but it's still operational and its early warning systems are still active to some extent. The energy surges from the main gun occur when the ship's dormant early warning systems (still suffering from a little bit of the "booby trap") detect hostiles.

8. It appears that the Roman Colliseum, leaning tower of piza, Great Wall of China, Easter Island heads and Al Kazneh are all within walking distance.

9. You can run from Al Kazneh, exit in the middle of the Roman Colliseum and see the Macross in the Horizon.

Did you, perchance, miss the part where they say out loud that those monuments (or recreations thereof) are all in the same place? Culture Park is basically a monument to the history and culture Earth lost when the Zentradi flattened everything from orbit in 2010. They're within walking distance because they're all located in the same parkland area. This is not a new or revolutionary idea either, there's a place maybe twenty minutes from my house where it's perfectly possible to walk from Henry Ford's birthplace to Edison's Menlo Park (New Jersey) lab to the Logan county (Illinois) court where Abraham Lincoln used to work as a lawyer without breaking a sweat.

At this point, it's looking like your grievances stem more from not actually watching it rather than legitimate problems with it.

10. The NUNS are in a middle of a frakking war they are loosing, they have no strategy to defend and they decide to hold a stupid show for their new VF using their only 2 ace pilots in the whole frakking world to do aerobatics and also showcase their new flagship and firepower all for the enemy to easily see.

Oh yes, because the UN Spacy has never thrown any kind of public event to distract people from how the war's going (*coughMISSMACROSScough*) or concealed from the public that things aren't going great. Did you also take exception to it when they threw a big damn show during wartime in the Macross 7 and Macross Frontier series?

Also, the Moon Festival is an annual event, not something the UN Spacy scheduled on the spur of the moment. Canceling it would've probably done quite a bit to damage the military's propaganda that everything is fine and the war is going smoothly. Also, who said the Gloria was new? It's not the flagship of their entire fleet either, just the 12th. The Metal Siren they showed at the festival isn't real either... it's a mockup. (Official materials state that it's a replica, literally naming it only as "METAL SIREN REPLICA".)

Edited April 25, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

Trying to break this up as a separate post so the quote tag limit won't freak out...

11. What the in the blue fvck is a "metal sirene"?

12. The metal sirene is the ugliest thing I've ever seen, is like a 5 year old tried to draw a transformer.

The Metal Siren is the newest variable fighter in the UN Spacy's arsenal in Macross II... brand new, in fact. The official designation given to it around 2002-2003 on the official Macross website makes it a variable attack plane tho (VA-1SS). The name is, supposedly, a reference/homage to the VF-4 and its original name of "Siren", which had its first (and thus far, only) starring role in one of Macross II's two prequels: Macross: Eternal Love Song.

The Metal Siren's what you get when you let Gundam and specifically Hathaway's Flash design aesthetics loose in a Macross setting, tho some of it was inspired by Kawamori's early design work on the VF-1J Valkyrie.

13. To destroy a NUNS capital ship you only have to crash on the bridge or use your sole pod to go trough the hull explode and watch the ship veer and completely blow up.

Not terribly unbelievable, considering how destructive Kamikaze attacks were when it was just aluminum planes ramming into steel aircraft carriers WITHOUT carrying several tons of explosive and an active fusion reactor. I imagine those probably make the "boom" when it crashes rather bigger.

14. The metal sirene has this neat electrical thing that can make a capital ship go boom at once but the only one available is used to take down small swarms of enemy pods instead of surgical strikes on enemy capital ship positions.

So, the four kilometer long fleet command battleship he blows up doesn't count then? The thing he uses to destroy that ship is never explained, so I can't say how often it can or can't be used. It may be that he only had enough juice to use it once, and it needs to recharge?

15. By just being inside one of the enemy vessels and Isthar telling Hibiki who she was, apparently Silvie completely understood who the Marduk and this Ingues leader are and why they are attacking Earth.

Based on some of your earlier questions, if you'd actually watched the OVA I'd be willing to bet that you'd have been able to put two and two together too. If you're not going to pay attention, then you're going to miss things, and I won't have any sympathy for you when you complain about it later.

16. That animation quality drop on the last episode was excruciating to watch, I thought they always save the best animation for the last episode.

Budget issues... yes, the drop in animation quality is painful.

17. It appears the Macross cannon on SDF-1 consists of the main cannons, the ARMD and the legs.

's part of a planned retrofit that was carried out with the intention of returning the Macross to active fleet service, but wasn't completed after another major war with the Zentradi (almost certainly the 2054 one) dropped another factory satellite in the UN Spacy's lap, bringing about a jump in human understanding of overtechnology that culminated in an entire new generation of UN Spacy warships.

18. Did they really destroyed the Macross in such a meaningless way? WOW, I didn't know the bridge could float with no power.

Meaningless? Did you, perchance, miss the moral that the important thing isn't the ship, it's the message of peace? Anyway, the bridge clearly had power, as it stayed aloft for a fair amount of time. (It's been implied in a few places that this bridge lifeboat mechanism wasn't new, and was a part of the concept material thought up for earlier projects. It may explain how the bridge crew survived essentially unharmed during Quamzin's final attack back in the original series.)

19. So, what the hell was Silvie doing with the General or Admiral in a hotel room??? they just show them talking about what would happen if the Minmei attack failed in a hotel room with a bed on the background, you just don't go to a hotel room to discuss military strategy and go out in complete disguise.

So... you don't pick up on subtle things, and you don't pick up on obvious things that are said out loud by the main cast? Sylvie and Nexx have a conversation about exactly this in the first bloody episode. They did, yes, go to a hotel specifically to discuss military strategy and nothing else, the point being to avoid talking about how the military has become complacent and overconfident within earshot of the other top brass who are likely to interpret it as insubordination.

20. So the love story was a love hexagon? Silvie+general+nexx+hibiki+ishtar+the marduk guy.

No... Exegran wasn't involved like that. It's a double or triple triangle...

Ishtar x Hibiki x Sylvie

Hibiki x Ishtar x Feff

Hibiki x Sylvie x Nexx

21. Why did Hibiki end up with Silvie?, those two never had anything going for each other.

Belligerent sexual tension.

[Freiflug88]

Kamikaze attacks.or not. I always blamed the UN Spacey for things like:

- positioning the majority of their precious artillery ships out in the front-lines in the first plalce

- lack of decent interceptor craft and anit-fighter flack guns

- lack of any barrier system to protect Macross cannons

[Alexander Del Sua]

Kamikaze attacks.or not. I always blamed the UN Spacey for things like:

- positioning the majority of their precious artillery ships out in the front-lines in the first plalce

- lack of decent interceptor craft and anit-fighter flack guns

- lack of any barrier system to protect Macross cannons

It's generally assumed that most Macross-class ships can recreate the Omni-directional barrier system, but since these ships were in the frontline among friendly ships and energy is directed toward charging the cannons, shields would both lose priority and be too dangerous to use. The only viable substitute is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

[Keith]

I agree with everything you've said except for 2.5 points.

1:As far as we know, the Booby Trap never occurred in the DYRL canon (of which II supposedly follows), so really, the energy discharges make no sense. Even if you assume that they do, the original series imparted that the problem with the system was taken care of, so there'd be no reason for an early warning system to dangerously fire a canon of that size.

2:The Bridge Lifeboat system, if it did exist in the TV canon, had nothing to do with the surivval of the bridge crew, since Kamjin hit the freakin' Daedelus arm.

and

2.5:Macross II's Minmay attack & Fire Bomber aren't comparable. Fire Bomber continued on the actual essence of what won the war in the oriignal series (moving your enemy into becoming your friend), while II's Minmay attack reverted back to the old culture shock standby.

Oh, and before I forget, isn't a lot of that stuff regarding the colony fleet's part of the PC Engine game canon? I wouldn't necessarily take that as fact in regards to II or anything else.

It's generally assumed that most Macross-class ships can recreate the Omni-directional barrier system, but since these ships were in the frontline among friendly ships and energy is directed toward charging the cannons, shields would both lose priority and be too dangerous to use. The only viable substitute is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

Generally assumed by who & where? Sounds fanfic-ish to me.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Keith

[VF-15 Banshee]

Not terribly unbelievable, considering how destructive Kamikaze attacks were when it was just aluminum planes ramming into steel aircraft carriers WITHOUT carrying several tons of explosive and an active fusion reactor. I imagine those probably make the "boom" when it crashes rather bigger.

Remember, Valkyrie Addict, that little big scene in Return of the Jedi where an A-Wing pilot does the same thing and brings down a 19 kilometer Dreadnought?

[VF5SS]

Dude, Mash drugged Ishtar.

Hibiki and Sylvie got together because of bad writing :v

The way they present the Valkyries is terrible.

Ishtar running escaping several miles down the road during like a five minute conversation is goofy, especially when she's a busty woman running in heels :3

Man there's a lot wrong with Macross 2's overall presentation. Considering the director has done little of note besides Megazone 23 III, I think we know the root of the problem.

[Freiflug88]

It's generally assumed that most Macross-class ships can recreate the Omni-directional barrier system, but since these ships were in the frontline among friendly ships and energy is directed toward charging the cannons, shields would both lose priority and be too dangerous to use. The only viable substitute is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

I was thinking why not just attach a "Super Pack" upgrade that supplies an auxiliary reactor to power the barrier system while the main reactors powers the beam cannon? I mean its funny that the UN Spacy has no issue mass producing "Super Packs" with reactor engines for Valkyrie cannon fodder, but yet they never seem to consider up-scaling Super Pack to upgrade their expensive Macross-Class ships.

[Alexander Del Sua]

I was thinking why not just attach a "Super Pack" upgrade that supplies an auxiliary reactor to power the barrier system while the main reactors powers the beam cannon? I mean its funny that the UN Spacy has no issue mass producing "Super Packs" with reactor engines for Valkyrie cannon fodder, but yet they never seem to consider up-scaling Super Pack to upgrade their expensive Macross-Class ships.

I suppose why not? They made the VF-25 almost completely dependent on super packs in space and the Macross Quarter can holster a flight deck on its back. Oh, and the VF-25S very briefly used a bubble shield from its backpacks.

[Seto Kaiba]

Kamikaze attacks.or not. I always blamed the UN Spacey for things like:

- positioning the majority of their precious artillery ships out in the front-lines in the first plalce

- lack of decent interceptor craft and anit-fighter flack guns

- lack of any barrier system to protect Macross cannons

Well, not having the kind of cavalier attitude towards losses due to friendly fire that the Zentradi Army apparently has, the UN Spacy wasn't left with a whole hell of a lot of options about where to place their heavy gun destroyers. Boddole Zer demonstrated that going through thousands of your own ships is effective enough if you want to catch the enemy off-guard, but it's only really sustainable in the long term if you have an unlimited number of replacements to draw on.

1:As far as we know, the Booby Trap never occurred in the DYRL canon (of which II supposedly follows), so really, the energy discharges make no sense. Even if you assume that they do, the original series imparted that the problem with the system was taken care of, so there'd be no reason for an early warning system to dangerously fire a canon of that size.

Remember, please, that what our boy Shoji set down after the fact for the events leading up to Do You Remember Love? doesn't necessarily hold true in Macross II's alternate universe continuity. The explanation of Macross II's continuity given by Ken'ichi Yatagai et. al. in B-Club 79 does indicate that a large number of events that were only depicted in the TV series still did happen in the DYRLverse. Some of them differed in the details, like the whole Zentradi uprising thing ending with Quamzin and company legging it for space as soon as they got their hands on a working ship rather than going on the suicide run they did in the series, but many still did happen.

Oh, and before I forget, isn't a lot of that stuff regarding the colony fleet's part of the PC Engine game canon? I wouldn't necessarily take that as fact in regards to II or anything else.

Yes and no.

Several of the old PC Engine games from the 90's did depict or mention various colony scenarios, but two of them are actually canon prequels to the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA. The creators of the Macross II: Lovers Again series collaborated on the production of a pair of PC Engine games for the purpose of filling in a little bit of the gap between Macross: Flashback 2012 and the new OVA. They made an R-type-style side-scrolling shooter, Macross 2036, and followed it up with a turn-based strategy game as a direct sequel, called Macross: Eternal Love Song. Their canonicity is clearly and expressly established via their inclusion in official coverage of the Macross II OVA, incl. the official Macross II timeline in B-Club 79, which offers information about their development and includes game-specific designs like the Refined Valkyrie in the official "VF History", and Entertainment Bible 51, which includes the events of those two games in their backstory synopsis.

It's generally assumed that most Macross-class ships can recreate the Omni-directional barrier system, but since these ships were in the frontline among friendly ships and energy is directed toward charging the cannons, shields would both lose priority and be too dangerous to use. The only viable substitute is the Pin-Point Barrier System.

Generally assumed by who & where? Sounds fanfic-ish to me.

Alexander Del Sua's on the level here, Keith... the official spec for the original Macross-class and the New Macross-class mention both pin-point and omnidirectional/total barrier systems. Bizarrely, the official spec for the Battle Frontier lists only a pin-point barrier, while the Varauta ships have both pin-point and total barrier systems listed for all classes except the Vanguard Frigate, which has only a pin-point barrier. Since Battle Frontier's commander did raise some kind of barrier covering the entire ship at one point, it seems safe to assume that the "Repulsion Field" (IINM) is either a new name for same or a cousin of the total barrier. The Macross Quarter also displays something that looks like a full-body shield shortly after that initial transformation in the Macross Frontier series, though its official spec also lists only a pin-point barrier.

On balance, it does seem that it's a safe assumption that a Macross-type ship has a total barrier.

The way they present the Valkyries is terrible.

This seems to be a subjective issue... the people who like the designs don't seem to have issues with it. You've made no secret of the fact that you REALLY don't like the designs of the series, so of course you have issues with their presentation.

Ishtar running escaping several miles down the road during like a five minute conversation is goofy, especially when she's a busty woman running in heels :3

Hehe... maybe that's how Hibiki was able to find her so fast. All he would've had to do was follow the drool from passers-by.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[Alexander Del Sua]

Woah... something's changed.

[VF5SS]

This seems to be a subjective issue... the people who like the designs don't seem to have issues with it. You've made no secret of the fact that you REALLY don't like the designs of the series, so of course you have issues with their presentation.

This has nothing to do with the designs, this all about directing and pacing. You can't throw three or four designs into a story, each almost interchangeable in function and expect people to get attached to any of them. I'm sorry, it never works when people try that for any robot anime. They're so disposable it's almost laughable. The Metal Siren is very egregious because it pops up out of nowhere and contributes absolutely nothing important other than mecha porn. Every other Macross production knew how to parse out mecha roles. Plus is literally about new fighters and 7 did the right things in getting new machines into the show.

Just throwing stuff on the screen never works for anyone except Gundam, where they have the built up fanbase and entire magazines devoted to marketing robots.

although I must admit the more I watch M2, the less appealing the designs get in my eyes :3

edit: ps I'm replaying 2036 and boy is this game awful. I may have to Scramble Valkyrie to get the bad shooter taste out of my brain.

Edited April 28, 2012 by VF5SS

[Keith]

Remember, please, that what our boy Shoji set down after the fact for the events leading up to Do You Remember Love? doesn't necessarily hold true in Macross II's alternate universe continuity. The explanation of Macross II's continuity given by Ken'ichi Yatagai et. al. in B-Club 79 does indicate that a large number of events that were only depicted in the TV series still did happen in the DYRLverse. Some of them differed in the details, like the whole Zentradi uprising thing ending with Quamzin and company legging it for space as soon as they got their hands on a working ship rather than going on the suicide run they did in the series, but many still did happen.

But Kamjin "died" in DYRL. And assumedly, if the Booby Trap happened like it did in the TV series, then it would have also been resolved in the TV series, i.e. the crew repaired the damage & sorted out the computer conflicts that caused all the havoc (Global Report).

[Seto Kaiba]

This has nothing to do with the designs, this all about directing and pacing. You can't throw three or four designs into a story, each almost interchangeable in function and expect people to get attached to any of them.

Hmm... maybe that explains why I've never had any use for the VF-11 and VF-19F/S, which were also fairly arbitrary inclusions. Still, I agree with you to a certain extent. The Valkyrie II's presence is justifiable enough, and though it's ugly as sin the Metal Siren at least is justifiable and its presence is explained before it's seen in combat. The only designs from Macross II that I'd really apply your remarks to would be the Zentradi Valkyrie, which was only really present for one very brief scene and as a throwaway design at that, and the Icarus, which was interesting but was essentially almost totally redundant even in its technical material.

although I must admit the more I watch M2, the less appealing the designs get in my eyes :3

edit: ps I'm replaying 2036 and boy is this game awful. I may have to Scramble Valkyrie to get the bad shooter taste out of my brain.

Okay, message received... you have an unstinting hate-on for Macross II. You can stop banging on about it now.

But Kamjin "died" in DYRL. And assumedly, if the Booby Trap happened like it did in the TV series, then it would have also been resolved in the TV series, i.e. the crew repaired the damage & sorted out the computer conflicts that caused all the havoc (Global Report).

Well, all I can really tell you there is that he's very much not dead (but contains significantly more metal by volume) when he makes a reappearance at the head of a second Zentradi main fleet in 2036. They really don't leave any room for doubt as to his identity, since he calls Britai up to taunt him on one of those viewscreens and has specific knowledge of Earth's military arrangements. As far as the booby trap is concerned, all I can tell you is that Ken'ichi Yatagai does explicitly finger the Macross's early warning systems as the culprit behind the energy discharges.

I don't make the news, I just report it.

[Gubaba]

Well, all I can really tell you there is that he's very much not dead (but contains significantly more metal by volume) when he makes a reappearance at the head of a second Zentradi main fleet in 2036.

But...the Gold Book said that he died. Is the Gold Book wrong?

[Seto Kaiba]

But...the Gold Book said that he died. Is the Gold Book wrong?

Now, I know I've answered this question for you before, so I feel compelled to ask... are you seriously asking?

Unless the Quamzin who "dies" fighting Roy in DYRL? isn't the famous(ly crazy) one, and there's another completely unmentioned Quamzin out running around and getting into all kinds of ally-killing hijinks under Britai's supervision during the war, then yes... that caption in the Gold Book would be wrong within the context of the Macross II alternate universe timeline. The implication in the Macross 2036 story is that the Quamzin returning to wreak havoc with the Zentradi Neld main fleet is the Quamzin, the notorious one who led the Zentradi uprising on Earth after the war ended. I suppose it's not really beyond the realm of possibility that there was more than one Quamzin serving under Britai (esp. after Macross Frontier and Temjin), though wasn't the Quamzin who dies fighting Roy supposed to also be the Quamzin?

[Reïvaj]

Aren't the Zentradi clones? All you have to do is add a different number after the name and you'll have all the Quamzin you want.

[Seto Kaiba]

Aren't the Zentradi clones? All you have to do is add a different number after the name and you'll have all the Quamzin you want.

Yeah, they're clones... but I don't think every Quamzin is the Ally-Killer. The one who shows up in Macross: Do You Remember Love? isn't around long enough to establish if he's the famous one or not, but the one who shows up in Macross 2036 is supposed to be the notorious one whose forces served with the Britai branch fleet during the war and who lived on Earth briefly before legging it back into space for reinforcements to finish what he started.

EDIT: Clarity.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[Reïvaj]

Yeah, they're clones... but I don't think every Quamzin is the Ally-Killer. The one who shows up in Macross: Do You Remember Love? isn't around long enough to establish if he's the famous one or not, but the one who shows up in Macross 2036 is supposed to be the notorious one whose forces served with the Britai branch fleet during the war and who lived on Earth briefly before legging it back into space for reinforcements to finish what he started.

Fair enough. So we could have (at least) two Quamzins: One of them would be the notorious one also commonly known as the Ally-Killer and the other one would be the generic Quamzin 03350.

[Seto Kaiba]

Fair enough. So we could have (at least) two Quamzins: One of them would be the notorious one also commonly known as the Ally-Killer and the other one would be the generic Quamzin 03350.

Possible, which is why I asked Gubaba for confirmation as to whether the Quamzin 03350 from Macross: Do You Remember Love? was supposed to be the same person as the famous Quamzin the Ally-Killer. It would tidy up a neat little loose end for me if they were two different people.

[Gubaba]

Possible, which is why I asked Gubaba for confirmation as to whether the Quamzin 03350 from Macross: Do You Remember Love? was supposed to be the same person as the famous Quamzin the Ally-Killer. It would tidy up a neat little loose end for me if they were two different people.

You know that there's no information one way or another about stuff like that. I think you're thinking about it MUCH harder than either the original creators or the game developers.

[Freiflug88]

Well, not having the kind of cavalier attitude towards losses due to friendly fire that the Zentradi Army apparently has, the UN Spacy wasn't left with a whole hell of a lot of options about where to place their heavy gun destroyers. Boddole Zer demonstrated that going through thousands of your own ships is effective enough if you want to catch the enemy off-guard, but it's only really sustainable in the long term if you have an unlimited number of replacements to draw on.

I was thinking front-line of the war out in the middle of the solar system, not the actual battle. My bad for not typing it out.

Then again since space is vast and 3-dimensional they could easily avoid friendly fire if they were careful and creative about ship positions. After all the SDF-1's main gun destroyed a number of Zentradi capital ships by surprise without vaporizing their VF fleets in friendly fire.

[Seto Kaiba]

You know that there's no information one way or another about stuff like that. I think you're thinking about it MUCH harder than either the original creators or the game developers.

To be fair, I was quite happy taking it at face value until you lot made it an issue.

I was thinking front-line of the war out in the middle of the solar system, not the actual battle. My bad for not typing it out.

Then again since space is vast and 3-dimensional they could easily avoid friendly fire if they were careful and creative about ship positions. After all the SDF-1's main gun destroyed a number of Zentradi capital ships by surprise without vaporizing their VF fleets in friendly fire.

Granted, space is vast and three-dimensional... but when the chips are down, people tend to think two-dimensionally* and depicting it that way makes the whole engagement easier for the audience to process.

* Lampshaded in Star Trek II?

[VF-15 Banshee]

Granted, space is vast and three-dimensional... but when the chips are down, people tend to think two-dimensionally*

That's why you should take Doc Brown's advice and think four-dimensionally!

[Keith]

I'm gonna have to declaire Shennanigoats on the MII Game canon then, as it ignores something far to blatant to be wrong.

[Gubaba]

Never mind.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Gubaba

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm gonna have to declaire Shennanigoats on the MII Game canon then, as it ignores something far to blatant to be wrong.

*shrug* 's your own call there, but the official Macross II publications do include the material from the prequel games and the timeline treats 'em as a part of the universe. The main Macross universe takes far more dramatic liberties with DYRL.

[Mechamaniac]

MOD WARNING - Gentlemen, go to your corners and stop poking at each other.