Thoughts on Macross II

[Gubaba]

If you say you can't see my original point that the basic premise of SDFM TV is much more gritty than that of Macross 7 then you are being obtuse on purpose and that is quite rude.

???

When did I say it wasn't?

[Load Master]

I don't have any evidence on hand but I defer to you Gubaba, who clearly has done more research than most:

Do you Gubaba admit that Kawamori had more autonomous control over the original concept for Macross 7 than he did for the original concept of SDFM TV? If you do admit it then you see my point as to why I don't subscribe to Macross-verse post MII. Kawamori ruined it with space hippies instead of a focus on space wars IMO.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Load Master

[frothymug]

I've been watching this argument from a third-person perspective and I have to say that you, Load Master, did kind of come in here with the intention of roughing up the status quo, so to speak. You can't expect there to not be a little resistance to what is purely your opinion. Once everyone starts to challenge your opinion, you start to dismiss them as if they don't matter. This is not the way to get people to go over to your side on the matter of things.

If by reading that just now, you say "well, I don't care what everyone has to say about this or that," then there was no point to coming in here to debate things in the first place. Everyone in here has a pretty good bead on the way they see each Macross series. You can't fault anyone for standing behind their opinions to this point, and then refuting yours a little bit.

[Gubaba]

I don't have any evidence on hand but I defer to you Gubaba, who clearly has done more research than most:

Do you Gubaba admit that Kawamori had more autonomous control over the original concept for Macross 7 than he did for SDFM TV?

No. From what I've seen, it seems like he suggested, "rock band that uses singing instead of missiles," and left the rest to the staff.

I've been watching this argument from a third-person perspective and I have to say that you, Load Master, did kind of come in here with the intention of roughing up the status quo, so to speak. You can't expect there to not be a little resistance to what is purely your opinion. Once everyone starts to challenge your opinion, you start to dismiss them as if they don't matter. This is not the way to get people to go over to your side on the matter of things.

Well, Load Master isn't really a NEW member, so it's more a continuation of his old argument.

[VF5SS]

Premises are a funny thing. Mospeada had a pretty grim premise but it's all Flash Dancing and loli birthday parties in the show. The premise of Macross isn't really about the annihilation of humanity (that comes later) but a little ship trying to outlast a bunch of aliens trying to capture it as they unravel the mystery of why culture seems to affect the aliens.

Which is pretty much the same as Macross 7. In fact it's more grim in 7 because there is literally nothing they can do to stop their enemies through force.

[Load Master]

Okay, I don't care who created what anymore, all I know is that I like everything up until Plus/7 and in keeping with the theme of this thread, my thoughts on Macross II is that is was the last true Macross production IN MY OPINION. Why? Because I like Macross II but I don't like Macross 7/Plus/Frontier. That is what I think of Macross II, as the original post asks us to state.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Load Master

[frothymug]

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable opinion to me. We can just agree to disagree.

[sketchley]

I've been watching this argument from a third-person perspective and I have to say that you, Load Master, did kind of come in here with the intention of roughing up the status quo, so to speak. You can't expect there to not be a little resistance to what is purely your opinion. Once everyone starts to challenge your opinion, you start to dismiss them as if they don't matter. This is not the way to get people to go over to your side on the matter of things.

If by reading that just now, you say "well, I don't care what everyone has to say about this or that," then there was no point to coming in here to debate things in the first place. Everyone in here has a pretty good bead on the way they see each Macross series. You can't fault anyone for standing behind their opinions to this point, and then refuting yours a little bit.

Thank you!

[VF5SS]

Throwing around the no true Scotsman fallacy doesn't make your opinion valid.

[Gubaba]

Okay, I don't care who created what anymore, all I know is that I like everything up until Plus/7 and in keeping with the theme of this thread, my thoughts on Macross II is that is was the last true Macross production IN MY OPINION. Why? Because I like Macross II but I don't like Macross 7/Plus/Frontier. That is what I think of Macross II, as the original post asks us to state.

Huh...you've a gift for creating straw men, I'll give you that (at least two in this thread alone).

It wasn't your opinion that Macross II is good that I was arguing with, it was this:

For me Macross went in a really bad direction as soon as Kawamori tookover overall control (absolute power corrupts absolutely)...

So I was pointing out that your facts are wrong.

Nowhere did I say that your opinion is bad. And nowhere did I say that M7 is "grittier" than SDFM.

If you want to debate, fine. But please don't make up statements and pretend that I said them, thanks.

[knoted]

I just really like the battroid mode of the VF 2SS ; the turbo thighs, the tapered shinlegs and even the illogical chest plate ( pointy bits obscuring FOV ).

For its fighter mode, I like the fact the canopy is a rather short, since I don't like elongated canopies in jetdesigns.

[Killer Robot]

I found DYRL to have a disjointed and surreal plot, with relatively flat characters. It was okay though, since it was written expecting you to be familiar with the TV series and so be able to fill in the blanks with your love of the characters and plot there. Also the animation and designs were top notch throughout, though I was never a fan of the more monstrous-looking Zentradi, and it played up a massive sense of scale.

Macross II followed DYRL in having a disjointed and surreal plot with relatively flat characters, and even in having an ambitious sense of scale. But its animation wasn't all there, and it importantly was standalone with no TV series to fill in the mental blanks when characters or plot flagged. For a series that's very much DYRL's sequel, it carries all of its predecessor's weaknesses while lacking most of its strengths, so while it was watchable it didn't grab me.

As for the mecha designs, eh. I don't dislike them, but I don't see why others find them so awesome. The other sequels all felt like they had more imagination put in.

[Sdf Prime]

I purchased and watched Macross II the other day after not seeing it in at least ten years. I thought it was pretty good, liked the mecha and character designs (got to love Mikimoto's work) the only thing in the last episode there was a massive drop in animation quality which was to bad because the animation was great throughout the rest of the OVA. I just wish they didn't blowup the SDF-1 Macross. Couldn't they have just damaged it instead? Oh well that's how it went.

[sketchley]

I just wish they didn't blowup the SDF-1 Macross. Couldn't they have just damaged it instead? Oh well that's how it went.

Heh... that reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day with the SDF-1 and Macross productions:

SDF-1 appears: generally liked by us foreign fans (SDFM, DYRL, FB2012, M+, MF)

SDF-1 doesn't appear: generally disliked by us foreign fans (M0, M7)

Macross II is the odd one out - as despite having the SDF-1 appear, it gets destroyed! Therefore, the dislike is stronger than the like.

The SDF-1 is like a dog in a movie. You need it to be successful. But don't KILL the dog!

Edited November 20, 2011 by sketchley

[Sdf Prime]

The SDF-1 is like a dog in a movie. You need it to be successful. But don't KILL the dog!

True, don't kill off one of the coolest star ships. Makes me think of star trek 3 and how popular or unpopular it was when it was released (I really don't know myself, I liked the movie.) when they did something unthinkable, they blew up the Enterprise. At least Enterprise was replace quickly. The SDF-1 Macross who knows maybe there's a spare hull to put the surviving bridge on.

[sketchley]

Makes me think of star trek 3 and how popular or unpopular it was when it was released (I really don't know myself, I liked the movie.)

I recently watched that movie. Fundamentally, it's a Trek movie with a decent plot. And watching Christopher "Doc Brown" Lloyd's scenery chewing is a treat.

That said, I kept being pulled out of the movie by the dialogue. The captain of the science ship? Sounds like a retard. Starfleet security referring to Bones as "in the funny farm"? Terrible. Truly terrible writing.

Ah well... the director makes up for it with the yes-no conversation in ST IV.

[Sdf Prime]

I recently watched that movie. Fundamentally, it's a Trek movie with a decent plot. And watching Christopher "Doc Brown" Lloyd's scenery chewing is a treat.

Oh yeah, Christopher Lloyd made a great Klingon.

[Dynaman]

The captain of the science ship? Sounds like a retard.

the director makes up for it with the yes-no conversation in ST IV.

Starfleet is an equal opportunity organization... (I get a kick out of seeing the same lady on both the science vessel and the Excelsior though, transporter accident perhaps?)

STIV has it's own problems, the "I've gotta help those whales!" line has GOT to go...

[pfunk]

Heh... that reminded me of something I was thinking about the other day with the SDF-1 and Macross productions:

SDF-1 appears: generally liked by us foreign fans (SDFM, DYRL, FB2012, M+, MF)

SDF-1 doesn't appear: generally disliked by us foreign fans (M0, M7)

Macross II is the odd one out - as despite having the SDF-1 appear, it gets destroyed! Therefore, the dislike is stronger than the like.

The SDF-1 is like a dog in a movie. You need it to be successful. But don't KILL the dog!

That is a really good sum up, SDF-1 love

[sharky]

If grittiness is a deciding factor for what is cool, then I would have to say Frontier (the show) is way grittier than SDFM or MII

[scannerfish]

If grittiness is a deciding factor for what is cool, then I would have to say Frontier (the show) is way grittier than SDFM or MII

Eh, MF doesn't have Misa flipping **** and pretending to have a normal middle class life with Hikaru. There is still something to this day I find creepy about that scene in the colony ship.

[VF-15 Banshee]

You're gonna have to remind me what scene that is, my memory is failing

[VF5SS]

He's talking about during the scene where Hikaru and Misa are wandering around the abandoned Protoculture city, she tells him to go look around while she stays and plays house in a wrecked kitchen. In a very feminine moment she invites him to have a cup of water as if it were coffee or something. It's a very touching moment she then gets upset that they may never be found and might die on the ruined earth. Hikaru makes her feel better.

I like how when we see them walking out of the room in the next scene, Misa is zipping up her jumpsuit.

She's a goer. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more.

[Reïvaj]

Yeah, that was cool.

[VF-15 Banshee]

Ah, he said colony ship and that's what threw me off. And hey it probably got pretty cold in those ruins at night. Hikaru and Misa were probably just sharing body heat. Yeah, that's the ticket...

[Cpt_Gloval]

Ah, he said colony ship and that's what threw me off. And hey it probably got pretty cold in those ruins at night. Hikaru and Misa were probably just sharing body heat. Yeah, that's the ticket...

I'd love to share body heat with Misa

[treatment]

[tankf77]

Maybe they should have Mac III?

[Gubaba]

Maybe they should have Mac III?

They kinda did. It's volumes 3 through 5 of the Macross II novels.

[scannerfish]

They kinda did. It's volumes 3 through 5 of the Macross II novels.

The best part in the fifth novel was the foreword: "btw we're abandoning this universe so support the upcoming releases k thnx bai."

Edited December 27, 2011 by scannerfish

[Gubaba]

The best part in the fifth novel was the foreword: "btw we're abandoning this universe so support the upcoming releases k thnx bai."

You mean the afterword, right?

[VF5SS]

More like the final word on Macross II amirite

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

macross II haviing the sdf1 being destroyed wasn't a big deal for me. It's not an invincible ship and the UN Spacy not being invincible was the entire theme of that sequel. Technology alone is not what gav humans the freedom. It was the awakening of the zentradi ancient memories causing them to remember who they are really that made the difference, since the soldiers are just mind controlled. I guess you could say the song gave them something else to live for.

This was the "legend of the alus". The legendary ship was not special because of weapons but the culture it would bring to the barbarians which only saw war as the sole reason for living due to mind control by thier masters much like the clone soldiers in star wars who were created for one purpose alone and used and exploited as tools..

Yes I know macross is just a mech show to people but like gundam its an anti-war story too. Having a ship be blown up only makes that part special because it tells you that your fave thing is vulnerable again which is what the drunken guy at the beginning of the story was trying to teach the young reporter; that the military is not invincible and it is not safe to assume you can rely only on one little trick for every encounter. (ie pilots might get the idea that training hard is not necesary now that they have enjoyed peace for so long)

The key to understanding the legend is not knowing the ship and finding it to use as a weapon to defeat the enemy, (its power is not the weapons) but instead using the memory of the past to remind the soldiers that there is no need to destroy everything if you can just find meaning beyond "fighting things for fun".

The aliiens are only warlike because that is what they are taught, but that is artificially programmed into them so they forget they can be more than soldiers and actually be other things too. (not that soldiers are not needed for defence of course, just that it is not the sole reason for your existence)

Macross 7 goes way too far into the other extreme where weapons like missiles, and bombs and traditional weapons are pretty much useless so you feel as if the war is no longer physical at all and as a result that means much more boring combat and lack of exciting dogfighting. People want to see some "gritty action" not just be preached to about the futility of war that inevitably escalates into planetary destruction and extinction of humans.

Edited December 29, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[leading edge]

I like macross II just wish some things were not so much like the first series. the futility of war is however a an old topic it is better to see it as a reality and acknowledge the futility than to just make a statement. The relentless struggle for no reason is clear in Macross but sometimes other series capitalize this too much ( ie Macross 7) and you get some silly results. Honestly Macross 7 was good but really when your talking life and death your not murdering if you stop someone from killing someone else or your self it really becomes an issue of restraint and not buying into violence solving a problem. Really violence solves a problem and creates a new one( killing someone equals vengence) that will happen the idea i always got from macross was there is a better way when people become reasonable and have a common interest or look beyond a barrel of a gun and they might see something in each other that theycan enjoy( music love) Iknow it sounds cheesey but that was what I always thought macross was about. I feel this Macross II did it I just think it could do somethings better still I enjoyed the series.

[Mommar]

the idea i always got from macross was there is a better way when people become reasonable and have a common interest or look beyond a barrel of a gun and they might see something in each other that theycan enjoy( music love) Iknow it sounds cheesey but that was what I always thought macross was about. I feel this Macross II did it I just think it could do somethings better still I enjoyed the series.

I would take issue with that for one reason, while music tends to turn the giants minds so that they think for themselves SDFM ended with them turning on their masters, blowing up a lot of ships and killing a LOT of people. Guns were used. I would say the message is if you're clear of mind you can choose to fight for what you believe in whatever way you feel is reasonable. Hikaru was a fighter pilot, he fought in a fighter. Minmei was a singer, she sang a song to distract/inspire/awaken. Same goal, different methods. Guns were still used and people still died. In Mac7 Gamlin fought with his fighter, Basara with singing (it just wasn't nearly as good as SDFM in my opinion.)