Thoughts on Macross II

[Protoculture]

I knew it! Flame on! Anyways, I could care less for Mac II, but it did leave a lasting legacy that was eventually seen in Macross Frontier. It is the only Macross series not in my collection.

I think you left out the lasting legacy of Macross II that lingers on in Macross 7.

Personally, I like Macross II, hated Macross 7 - only to loved Macross 7 more than Macross II (listened to Basara on daily doses & appreciating Sivil had make me a convert).

I mean, there's Haruhiko Mikimoto character's designs splattered all over Macross II. That's a win, naturally for me. Then there's that sleek Valkyrie VF-2SS & awesome Destroids ... & humongous Macross cannons. Oh, even Marduk mechas & ships are a visual fest!

But still, it felt a bit hollow ... perhaps ... I don't know ... feels too 'Robotech-y' ? Sure, I did kinda feel that when ... Silvie Gena feels as better character as compared to Dana Sterling / Marduk & its brainwash Zentrans seems like a better version of RT Masters & their Zentraedi slaves / Red Gilgamesh more than equals Red Bioroid / besieged Earth by Mardook Fleet as compared to besieged Earth by Masters' Armada ....

Ahhh well, Macross II do feel superior to any Robotech series, bar Macross Saga.

[Zinjo]

if it's a space fighter, why does it have 6 intakes? Why does it have wings? Tail fins? And no, the intakes on the vf-1 chest do go somewhere, just like the ones on the 25 and 19 go somewhere. The intakes on the vf-2 go into the shoulders.

Why does the Vf-19 Blazer have wings or vertical stabilizers? Probably because it is space "optimzed" like the VF-2SS is supposed to be. However, I'd probably want to fly a Blazer than a VF-2SS in an atmosphere. The VF-2SS's atmospheric attributes seem more akin to providing hard points for missiles and an effective way to land the beast shouid it fall into an atmosphere. The VF-2JA is designed for atmospheric maneuvering more so than the VF-2SS.

And bringing up the wonkiness of the vf-4 design doesn't make the vf-2 any better. It just means there's another wonky design out there. But while the vf-4 also has the belly fin, it doesn't have a welder's mask so it's still better.

True, but it doesn't help any arguments for the VF-4 or VF-9 either... As fighters I love both of the Kawamori designs, but the wheels fell off when he tried to figure out how to transform them into battroids! I am so glad he plays with lego now!

[VF5SS]

The VF-19 is simply a more revolutionary design than the VF-2SS. You can argue the little details but there's no denying the allure of the VF-19.

The VF-2SS is one of the things that failed to captivate the general audience due to its inability to differentiate itself from the VF-1.

[Gubaba]

'NUFF SAID!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-XGlRYXQM

[coronadlux]

I enjoyed Frontier more than Macross II, and I agree that Macross II is lacking in the substance department. The Mecha and action scenes were cool for the 90's. It was hard to follow from the get-go but after watching the entire episodes, I get most of it.

[Uxi]

The VF-19 is simply a more revolutionary design than the VF-2SS. You can argue the little details but there's no denying the allure of the VF-19.

The VF-2SS is one of the things that failed to captivate the general audience due to its inability to differentiate itself from the VF-1.

The VF-2SS wasn't supposed to be revolutionary. It was precisely the point that it was too much of a "me too'ism" not realizing that the game had changed. Metal Siren was the revolutionary new design. I think it did go a bit too Gundam'ish but I still wish I could get a good toy of it in 1/60.

[VF5SS]

Metal Siren was the revolutionary new design.

It's a VF-1 derivative too.

[Zinjo]

It's a VF-1 derivative too.

I think you are being kind...

Never liked the MS, the boxiest variable fighter I've ever seen!

I liked the concept, but the execution failed IMHO...

[VF5SS]

My point is, there's a much clearer transition between the VF-11 (or VF-1 really) to the VF-19 and VF-22 (and their respective prototypes). They both transform differently and have recognizably unique silhouettes in all three modes.

The Metal Siren was too similar to its predecessors and only had a gimmicky super mode to distinguish itself from the other Valkyries in the OVA.

Maybe Bandai had a hand in that decision to keep everything derivative as I know the designers who worked on Macross II are pretty versatile. Or it could just be a director's decision or something along those lines.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm currently watching M2 on netflix. Yeah it's the english dub, and I hate Ibiki, such a snot nosed 17 yr old civvie turd. The casting was terrible as was the acting. M+ was so much better. The story of M2 isn't bad, but if they were to re cast it, and digitally remaster the animation, and re do the dialogue, it could easily be so much better. As for the ADV SDFM dub, yeah it was clunky, but I still enjoyed it enough to buy the set. I guess I'm not that picky, I just want to be entertained. M+ remains one of my favorite of the franchise to date. Now, If only we could get a dub of M7, Zero, and Frontier I'd be set. Frontier grew on me, the mecha was cool, and the story was fun. Could have done without the bionic camel spiders in space though.

[Seto Kaiba]

My point is, there's a much clearer transition between the VF-11 (or VF-1 really) to the VF-19 and VF-22 (and their respective prototypes). They both transform differently and have recognizably unique silhouettes in all three modes.

The Metal Siren was too similar to its predecessors and only had a gimmicky super mode to distinguish itself from the other Valkyries in the OVA.

's an odd thing to say, considering that the Metal Siren's design stands out fairly clearly from the other Valkyries in the OVA... and it does quite a few things differently like the completely-different cockpit design, the internal micro-missile launchers, dual gunpods, the way the wings are handled, etc.

(I don't actually like the design much, I'm just trying to be fair to it... IMHO, it's a Valkyrie that's trying a little too hard to be a Gundam.)

I'm currently watching M2 on netflix. Yeah it's the english dub, and I hate Ibiki, such a snot nosed 17 yr old civvie turd. The casting was terrible as was the acting.

Oh, no denying the dub of Macross II was absolutely atrocious... that's why almost everyone I know refuses point-blank to watch Macross II in any format other than subbed or unsubbed in the original Japanese.

[VF5SS]

's an odd thing to say, considering that the Metal Siren's design stands out fairly clearly from the other Valkyries in the OVA... and it does quite a few things differently like the completely-different cockpit design, the internal micro-missile launchers, dual gunpods, the way the wings are handled, etc.

ok here's the deal

forget the pointless stat crap like zomg dual gunpods and magic electrical attack and what have you. None of that matters in the end.

from your own website

http://macross2.net/...rt-macross2.jpg

Those three Valkyries look like VF-1s. Even with the surface details changed, there is no denying that silhouette in all of their modes.

When you go from the VF-1 and VF-11 to the VF-19, there is so much of a difference in the overall appearance. Even at a quick glance, you know the VF-19 marks a radical departure. The beauty of it is that even with a marked change in design philosophy, both the Plus and 7 era variants have little callbacks to the VF-1 and VF-11 that echo a heritage without just being the same basic design.

i just can't stop gushing over it <3

[Seto Kaiba]

forget the pointless stat crap like zomg dual gunpods and magic electrical attack and what have you. None of that matters in the end.

[...]

Those three Valkyries look like VF-1s. Even with the surface details changed, there is no denying that silhouette in all of their modes.

Wait... are you actually being serious here, or are you just taking the piss? I have to ask, because I honestly can't tell.

Really, if you're actually serious in complaining that the Macross II: Lovers Again Valkyries look like they're modeled on the original VF-1, then all I can do is shake my head in dismay and wonder how you missed that that was the bloody point. I don't see you bagging on Kawamori for doing exactly the same thing on no less than three occasions (the VF-11, VF-0, and VF-25) with much less justification in most cases.

[VF5SS]

Yeah and that's why it's the stagnant and forgotten entry in the franchise.

Huge lack of vision.

tsk

tsk

PS the VF-11, and VF-0 were never flagship machines.

And the VF-25 is a celebration of the craft.

[Valkyrie addict]

so...I was rearranging an old DVD collection and bump into the Macross II DVD, having only seen it once a looooooooong time ago and not liking it, I thought I'd give it a second chance and....

Holy Sh!t!! one of the stupidest anime I've ever seen, even worst being part of Macross, so many things wrong with it,

1. WTH? 80 years, they haven't leave Earth and still rely on a mediocre version of a "Minmei attack".

2. During the initial attack, why the hell did the flagship fold right in the line of fire to be immediately destroyed?.

3. When Hibiki got into the enemy vessel before kidnapping Ishtar, who the hell conveniently destroyed the suit that was going to attack them?.

4. Kidnapping Ishtar, drugging her to remain calm and following with a camera filming everything she does is not creepy at all

5. When Isthar escapes Hibikis apartment to find the Alus, she didn't go trough the front door, apparently she got away trough the balcony, but we get a shot of how fvcking high the balcony is, so...wtf??

6. To Isthar, an orchestral symphony is torture.

7. What....the...fvck...are energy surges from the Macross?

8. It appears that the Roman Colliseum, leaning tower of piza, Great Wall of China, Easter Island heads and Al Kazneh are all within walking distance.

9. You can run from Al Kazneh, exit in the middle of the Roman Colliseum and see the Macross in the Horizon.

10. The NUNS are in a middle of a frakking war they are loosing, they have no strategy to defend and they decide to hold a stupid show for their new VF using their only 2 ace pilots in the whole frakking world to do aerobatics and also showcase their new flagship and firepower all for the enemy to easily see.

11. What the in the blue fvck is a "metal sirene"?

12. The metal sirene is the ugliest thing I've ever seen, is like a 5 year old tried to draw a transformer.

13. To destroy a NUNS capital ship you only have to crash on the bridge or use your sole pod to go trough the hull explode and watch the ship veer and completely blow up.

14. The metal sirene has this neat electrical thing that can make a capital ship go boom at once but the only one available is used to take down small swarms of enemy pods instead of surgical strikes on enemy capital ship positions.

15. By just being inside one of the enemy vessels and Isthar telling Hibiki who she was, apparently Silvie completely understood who the Marduk and this Ingues leader are and why they are attacking Earth.

16. That animation quality drop on the last episode was excruciating to watch, I thought they always save the best animation for the last episode.

17. It appears the Macross cannon on SDF-1 consists of the main cannons, the ARMD and the legs.

18. Did they really destroyed the Macross in such a meaningless way? WOW, I didn't know the bridge could float with no power.

19. So, what the hell was Silvie doing with the General or Admiral in a hotel room??? they just show them talking about what would happen if the Minmei attack failed in a hotel room with a bed on the background, you just don't go to a hotel room to discuss military strategy and go out in complete disguise.

20. So the love story was a love hexagon? Silvie+general+nexx+hibiki+ishtar+the marduk guy.

21. Why did Hibiki end up with Silvie?, those two never had anything going for each other.

I know Macross II is not part of the official Macross universe, but it's astonishing just how bad Macross II it makes me want to boil my eyes; I'm going now to pop DYRL in to purge my brain.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Valkyrie addict

[Reïvaj]

[...] I'm going now to pop DYRL in to purge my brain.

Good idea

[TehPW]

Yeah and that's why it's the stagnant and forgotten entry in the franchise.

Huge lack of vision.

tsk

tsk

PS the VF-11, and VF-0 were never flagship machines.

And the VF-25 is a celebration of the craft.

you mean 'Hero' ships. Thats the term i've seen coined to justify the creation of the VF-171 for the cannon fodder birds for MF, vice the VF-19D/S. The VF-19 was TOO heroic (that and it looks retarded with those http://www.macross2....uperbooster.htm huge FAST pack on the shoulders in Battroid mode) for MF.

uh...as for M0... how can the VF-0 not be a flagship machine for its own series?

and heres a thought: maybe in Japan, the VF-11 didnt have much of a fan base (until M:TR came to be) but im sure a lot of folks on this side of the Pacific took a real shining to the T-Bolt III (probably because its sooo much better than the equally ugly-compared-to-the-Metal-Siren: The VF-4 in Battroid mode...)

Off Topic slightly but ive seen a Avatar of a VF-19 with VF-25-type FAST packs (i was told by PM that the image was a clip from the 2nd MF movie).... was there really such a bird in that 2nd movie?

Edited April 11, 2012 by TehPW

[VF5SS]

I think only a vocal minority really like the VF-11 in the west because they'd rewatch the opening battle to Plus for lack of anything better to do :3

[Keith]

Off Topic slightly but ive seen a Avatar of a VF-19 with VF-25-type FAST packs (i was told by PM that the image was a clip from the 2nd MF movie).... was there really such a bird in that 2nd movie?

Isamu has a really quick cameo towards the end, as he folds in with SMS re-enforcements piloting a custom VF-19 with 25 Fast Packs, that closely resembles the original YF-19.

You can probably find this on youtube.

[sketchley]

You can probably find this on youtube.

As the BR is out, there's no need to put that in spoiler tags any longer...

[Keith]

As the BR is out, there's no need to put that in spoiler tags any longer...

I did that for his benefit, just so he had the option of not reading it if he didn't want to given that it was a bit of a spoiler.

[Zinjo]

I think only a vocal minority really like the VF-11 in the west because they'd rewatch the opening battle to Plus for lack of anything better to do :3

Yeah like the vocal minority who like the VF-4 and the VF-17, etc...

Dismissing the preferences of other fans really doesn't re-enforce any points you make. On the contrary.

so...I was rearranging an old DVD collection and bump into the Macross II DVD, having only seen it once a looooooooong time ago and not liking it, I thought I'd give it a second chance and....

I know Macross II is not part of the official Macross universe, but it's astonishing just how bad Macross II it makes me want to boil my eyes; I'm going now to pop DYRL in to purge my brain.

Talking smack about Mac II is really not the way to go to debate it's weaknesses. Many here can argue equally as vehemently against Mac 7 or Mac Zero for that matter. You know, rainbow rays capable of stopping Macross Cannon blasts, the GI Joe manner in which human fighter pilots were mercifully spared a flaming death in battle, a civilian flying a fighter "BETTER" than trained fleet pilot aces, etc... The reality is that it doesn't take away from many members' enjoyment of those productions. Keith and I have had many a lively debate with respect to Mac 7 and Mac II and their weaknesses in terms of story and plausibility, but ultimately we've agreed to disagree because after all they are TV shows and appreciation of them are always purely subjective to the viewers.

As a matter of fact if you were interested in learning the "in universe" history that Mac II was based on I'm sure Seto would be happy to educate you. It was the official history before Kawamori retconned it to make Mac Plus and Mac 7 work. It was about this same time that DYRL was relegated to a lame "in universe " movie as opposed to an alternate telling of the events of SW1 (which is more in keeping with his philosophy regarding Macross productions all being dramatic stories of actual historical events "in universe").

Edited April 15, 2012 by Zinjo

[VF5SS]

Yeah like the vocal minority who like the VF-4 and the VF-17, etc...

All I have to do is look how well VF-11 merchandise sold. There's no speculation necessary.

[Renato]

Yeah like the vocal minority who like the VF-4 and the VF-17, etc...

Well... Yeah. Seems to me like it's EXACTLY like that, actually.

[VF5SS]

Well... Yeah. Seems to me like it's EXACTLY like that, actually.

Shh. What did I tell you about using real life observations on MW :3

[Zinjo]

All I have to do is look how well VF-11 merchandise sold. There's no speculation necessary.

Well you may have a point, considering how well the VF-19Kai and VF-19Blazer Hi-Metals have sold...

Then there appears to be plenty of 1/60 scale VF-19Kai's around as well...

They too appear to have a "vocal minority", so I see what you are saying...

Although, if one were to take the available stock at HLJ as an indicator, it would appear nearly all the VF-11 stock is sold out and waiting for back order refills.

The sponsors would do well to consider limited runs on non-hero valks. Money is money and if a niche of a niche market is willing to pay for a limited run kit or toy then give it to them. This is particularly resonant for Hasegawa where they can milk a mold for years. They've made quite a profit off the VF-1 and VF-19 molds over the years and will probably continue to do so with the 1/48 scale molds now..

[VF5SS]

Well you may have a point, considering how well the VF-19Kai and VF-19Blazer Hi-Metals have sold...

That was a terrible line that had come too late in the game. Sorry, try again.

Then there appears to be plenty of 1/60 scale VF-19Kai's around as well...

If you're talking about HLJ, it's my understanding those Kais are on a second issue up for pre-order.

Although, if one were to take the available stock at HLJ as an indicator, it would appear nearly all the VF-11 stock is sold out and waiting for back order refills.

The VF-11 took literally years to go on clearance just to get to that point.

This is particularly resonant for Hasegawa where they can milk a mold for years. They've made quite a profit off the VF-1 and VF-19 molds over the years and will probably continue to do so with the 1/48 scale molds now..

So how does making money on two hero Valkyries affect the VF-11?

[Valkyrie addict]

Just because Macross II was at it's original intend the "official" continuation of Macross before Kawamori retcon it, it does not take away the fact its a bad anime and that I as many other should not critized its many, many shortcoming, for me Macross II was failed marketing. It had potential but it didn't fulfil. I know my post was very negative but I just had to let it out.

In the past I've been vocal about Macross 7, I do not hate it, I have very fond memories of the series, but Basara is annoying as hell with his irrational ego singing while everyone else dies around him, and the first 11 episodes that are a rerun of each other do not help by blasting planet dance a bagillion times.

I love the Macross universe, its sillyness and its nostalgia, but it would be silly not to point out when something is just plain bad (Macross II).

[VF-15 Banshee]

But you dig Dennis right? I mean, c'mon, it's Dennis "You Don't Know Anything About Culture" Lone! What's not to love?

[VF5SS]

The Reverse Thieves invited me to their speakeasy podcast to talk about Macross 2.

It's gonna be great.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just because Macross II was at it's original intend the "official" continuation of Macross before Kawamori retcon it, it does not take away the fact its a bad anime and that I as many other should not critized its many, many shortcoming, for me Macross II was failed marketing. It had potential but it didn't fulfil. I know my post was very negative but I just had to let it out.

To a certain extent, you're right... Macross II: Lovers Again was not up to the level of previous Macross shows. The thing that really undermined it was that it was trying to follow in the footsteps of Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which is generally hailed as the definitive Macross experience, setting the bar pretty damn high to start. No matter how good it was, it was never going to live up to the way it was being promoted by the idiots in America, as they called it things like "the most anticipated anime sequel of all time" and generally built it up to sound like the single greatest achievement in anime's history. At that point, failing to meet expectations was the only option. It also didn't help that neither of its two prequels, and virtually none of the other material for it ever made it to audiences outside of Japan, who were left to flail in the dark and wonder how this OVA connected to Macross as a whole.

Really, the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA isn't a bad series... under any other name, it would probably have done quite well for itself, but it was only an average series in a family where exceptional is the norm. Had Macross 7 not been the right show at the right time, we'd probably be tearing into it the same way for the various ways it falls short of the mark.

Now, if those questions of yours are serious, and not just vitriol, I can answer them for you... many of them would have been answered for you already had the Macross II publications made it to audiences outside of Japan.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Seto Kaiba

[VF5SS]

Had Macross 7 not been the right show at the right time, we'd probably be tearing into it the same way for the various ways it falls short of the mark.

Are you new here?

It took over ten years and two new Macrosses for people to stop tearing into 7 for every little thing.

I mean come on now.

And to blunt, Macross 2 is a pretty lackluster OVA even for its time. There is nothing remarkable about it, especially when compared to much grander productions like Detonator Orgun and Gundam 0083. Without being a Macross series it would have probably done worse.

Edited April 25, 2012 by VF5SS

[Vifam7]

The one element Macross II did right was the music. The OP/ED songs as well as Ishtar and Wendy Ryder's songs were all pretty good. Obviously not as great as Minmay's songs but then it's really not fair to compare.

[Seto Kaiba]

It took over ten years and two new Macrosses for people to stop tearing into 7 for every little thing.

But the people doing the complaining still generally accepted that Macross 7 was a legitimate Macross title... while the Macross II OVA and its satellite titles still get the dismissive treatment it did ten years ago, regardless of quality, often simply because it didn't come from Kawamori. The worst part, at least in my opinion, is that a fair number of the criticisms leveled at Macross II's setting (as illustrated by Valkyrie addict) stem from having practically every piece of intermediate material connecting Macross II to DYRL fail to make it across with the series.

[Mommar]

To a certain extent, you're right... Macross II: Lovers Again was not up to the level of previous Macross shows. The thing that really undermined it was that it was trying to follow in the footsteps of Macross: Do You Remember Love?, which is generally hailed as the definitive Macross experience, setting the bar pretty damn high to start. No matter how good it was, it was never going to live up to the way it was being promoted by the idiots in America, as they called it things like "the most anticipated anime sequel of all time" and generally built it up to sound like the single greatest achievement in anime's history. At that point, failing to meet expectations was the only option. It also didn't help that neither of its two prequels, and virtually none of the other material for it ever made it to audiences outside of Japan, who were left to flail in the dark and wonder how this OVA connected to Macross as a whole.

Really, the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA isn't a bad series... under any other name, it would probably have done quite well for itself, but it was only an average series in a family where exceptional is the norm. Had Macross 7 not been the right show at the right time, we'd probably be tearing into it the same way for the various ways it falls short of the mark.

Now, if those questions of yours are serious, and not just vitriol, I can answer them for you... many of them would have been answered for you already had the Macross II publications made it to audiences outside of Japan.

Even if his questions were vitriol I'd be curious about the real answers to them.