Red Tails

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

And we're all in luck -- John Woo is directing a film about them!

My first mental image is of a P-40 pilot baling out and firing at the A6M2 on his six with twin revolvers before he even yanks the chute....

[reddsun1]

I'm hoping it won't be entirely a CGI fest though. Looking at the Red Tails trailer, I think it looks cool but also phony as poo. Nothing compares to real footage of real planes like in Battle of Britain.

Hear hear!

I'm willing to concede that we'll have to settle for CG for movies about this particular period of history though, as most of these planes just don't exist any more. I just wish they wouldn't cram everything together, as though all the action takes place in an airspace shaped like an imaginary cube, conveniently shaped to fit a 1.73:1 widescreen...

[Bowen]

My first mental image is of a P-40 pilot baling out and firing at the A6M2 on his six with twin revolvers before he even yanks the chute....

That's not necessarily a bad thing...

Especially if said pilot would be played by Liam Neeson

I mean, if you can get away with flying a tank, you can get away with that

Oh god, nerdgasm-levels are rising...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

That's not necessarily a bad thing...

Especially if said pilot would be played by Liam Neeson

I mean, if you can get away with flying a tank, you can get away with that

Oh god, nerdgasm-levels are rising...

Then he'll still not yank the chute, glide onto the next Zero, yank the pilot out into the slipstream and take over the Zero before shooting down everyone.

[Dynaman]

Then he'll still not yank the chute, glide onto the next Zero, yank the pilot out into the slipstream and take over the Zero before shooting down everyone.

The movie can end in 1945, the bomb on the Enola Gay gets stuck and he is wearing a cowboy hat...

[F-ZeroOne]

F-ZeroOne,

I remember hearing that there was a helluva controversy over a detail of Guy Gibson's depiction in this remake; as concerning the historically accurate but utterly UN-'P.C.' naming of his labrador dog, the squadron mascot.

There is indeed - Stephen Fry, the screenwriter, has commented to the effect that its an "unwinnable" battle; whatever they decide to do about it will annoy someone, though I have a suspicion at least some of those arguing in favour of strict historical accuracy are not in fact interested in strict historical accuracy but have some other agenda...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The movie can end in 1945, the bomb on the Enola Gay gets stuck and he is wearing a cowboy hat...

Oh yeah of course. He'll have to fight off the Evil Japanese Ninja Chick hiding in the Enola Gay before that though.

[Arthurius]

wow, visually looks awsome, so many nice places!!!!

[Keith]

Oh yeah of course. He'll have to fight off the Evil Japanese Ninja Chick hiding in the Enola Gay before that though.

WTF are you talking about? He's going to have to fight the Dolphin & Whale piloting it. Sheesh, ninja's...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

WTF are you talking about? He's going to have to fight the Dolphin & Whale piloting it. Sheesh, ninja's...

Silly American! Your government has been lying to you all these years. It was Cow and Chicken piloting it! Sheesh, whales piloting B-29s. Next thing you'll be telling me that crab people exist.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[renegadeleader1]

There is indeed - Stephen Fry, the screenwriter, has commented to the effect that its an "unwinnable" battle; whatever they decide to do about it will annoy someone, though I have a suspicion at least some of those arguing in favour of strict historical accuracy are not in fact interested in strict historical accuracy but have some other agenda...

Why not just name the dog black? Thats what the word means in english as opposed to its latin origin.

[Bowen]

Why not just name the dog black? Thats what the word means in english as opposed to its latin origin.

Because then you'd have people bitching it's not called African American

[Keith]

Leave the dogs name alone, anything else would be insulting to actual history & the real people involved. Nobody of any merit will take an issue, just those who want attention.

[Daigoro]

Hear hear!

I'm willing to concede that we'll have to settle for CG for movies about this particular period of history though, as most of these planes just don't exist any more. I just wish they wouldn't cram everything together, as though all the action takes place in an airspace shaped like an imaginary cube, conveniently shaped to fit a 1.73:1 widescreen...

Yep, that is why I said I hoped it wouldn't be _entirely_ CGI. There are probably enough later model P-40s still flying that they could use real planes, but the Japanese planes would either have to be things like Texan trainers or radio-controlled models. (I thought the Heinkel RC-models in BoB that they used for crashing into the sea looked great.) If the budget permitted they could even build flying replicas with real pilots inside.

Unfortunately, CGI would most likely be both CHEAPER and SAFER. They had actually built flying replica planes for the movie Flyboys, but a fatal accident early on meant that they switched over to CGI -- which I thought looked terrible.

As for the flying, most directors don't seem to have a feel for the real mechanics of flight. Few of them are pilots or flight simulator enthusiasts. And usually the tactics aren't realistic for dramatic purposes. For example, the Mustang looping to get behind a German plane in the trailer is positively ridiculous -- but I suppose it is the sort of tactic that a non-flying movie audience could understand.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

As for the flying, most directors don't seem to have a feel for the real mechanics of flight. Few of them are pilots or flight simulator enthusiasts. And usually the tactics aren't realistic for dramatic purposes. For example, the Mustang looping to get behind a German plane in the trailer is positively ridiculous -- but I suppose it is the sort of tactic that a non-flying movie audience could understand.

CG is ok if it is high-end CG I guess. For space ships like Star Destroyers I think _good_ miniature models are still better (look at what they managed in the 70/80s with Star Wars). For smaller scale objects (compared to Star Destroyers that is) like B-17s, I don't think models would be better than CG and when you want to show battle damage and flaming engines and flak hits, flying replicas dumping airshow smoke ain't gonna cut it.

Don't even start on real world physics and movies.

[Daigoro]

For smaller scale objects (compared to Star Destroyers that is) like B-17s, I don't think models would be better than CG and when you want to show battle damage and flaming engines and flak hits, flying replicas dumping airshow smoke ain't gonna cut it.

Have seen The Battle of Britain? Or Blue Thunder? The radio-controlled models in both look so convincing you might not have realized they weren't real planes or helicopters. For example, look at the shots of Heinkels crashing into the Channel in BoB. All done with RC models. Note that I'm NOT talking about models in front of bluescreen (like in Firefox or Star Wars), or models hanging from wires in front of a backdrop, but models filmed flying against real backgrounds.

I would agree about flying replicas dumping airshow smoke, but I never said that you couldn't use ANY CGI shots. You do realize that CGI can be added to footage of real-life objects, don't you? You could always add CGI flames/smoke to footage of real planes, or use CGI planes only for those shots where they take damage. The Czech film Dark Blue World is a good example of how they used leftover footage from BoB of real planes and modified it by computer to good effect.

Also, a mix of effects should be used, depending on what looks best or is practical in a given scene. All of the movies I've mentioned used a combination of methods -- some shots had real planes, others models; some used practical effects like smoke generators, others optical effects or, in the case of Dark Blue World, CGI.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Daigoro

[F-ZeroOne]

Actually, using models presents a bit of an accuracy dilemma in itself - do you match them against the aircraft that were available or authentic, period-accurate aircraft? Many of the "real" aeroplanes in "The Battle of Britain" came from many different periods of the war - a few were actually post-war marks or variants, including many of the "German" aircraft, which IIRC were mostly post-war Spanish built with Merlin engines! Its been a while since I've seen that film, but IIRC the model He-111s had been built with "Merlins" as well...!

CGI can help in this respect but due to the limited availability of period-accurate aircraft unless you replace the "real" thing completely you might still be using an aircraft that isn't "completely" authentic (actually, there probably isn't a "warbird" flying today thats 100% authentic, due to the necessity or re-manufacturing parts etc - pretty much the first thing thats done with all re-built Spitfires is to replace the original fasteners, which were originally made from a metal that would start eating into the airframe over time!).

Edited August 6, 2011 by F-ZeroOne

[Dynaman]

As for the flying, most directors don't seem to have a feel for the real mechanics of flight.

Far more importantly, most audiances do not have a feel for the real mechanics of flight - and would find an authentic dogfight boring and slow. Let's not forget that most "dogfights" were nothing of the sort either - fast planes would make a quick pass, then turn around realllll slow and far away and do it again. It was only when the inexperienced (or foolish) with the less manuevarable plane tried to get in to turning fight that a dogfight occured. (one caveat - a poor soul with a slower AND less manuevarble plane was really out of luck)

[Warmaker]

Kinda funny Cuba Gooding Jr is in this film, since he was in another flick years ago with Laurence Fishburne in a Tuskegee Airmen movie.

Curious to see how this pans out. I'm all for an air combat flick, but I wish it could look more real with the aircraft sequences. It's like a video game cutscene because it blatantly screams CGI.

[reddsun1]

Yep, that is why I said I hoped it wouldn't be _entirely_ CGI. There are probably enough later model P-40s still flying that they could use real planes, but the Japanese planes would either have to be things like Texan trainers or radio-controlled models. (I thought the Heinkel RC-models in BoB that they used for crashing into the sea looked great.) If the budget permitted they could even build flying replicas with real pilots inside.

Unfortunately, CGI would most likely be both CHEAPER and SAFER. They had actually built flying replica planes for the movie Flyboys, but a fatal accident early on meant that they switched over to CGI -- which I thought looked terrible.

As for the flying, most directors don't seem to have a feel for the real mechanics of flight. Few of them are pilots or flight simulator enthusiasts. And usually the tactics aren't realistic for dramatic purposes. For example, the Mustang looping to get behind a German plane in the trailer is positively ridiculous -- but I suppose it is the sort of tactic that a non-flying movie audience could understand.

Indeed. I'd prefer the B/C model on screen for a movie with P-40s. Just a meaner, better looking plane. I read somewhere that original designer Donovan Berlin (sp?) was never happy with Curtiss' solution for engine cooling with the plane (the big, distinctive chin duct) on later models. I've often wondered how much, if any, the performance of the plane might have improved if Curtiss had invested in improvements on the model similar to those on other planes like the P-51 and P-47; things like: a 4-blade "paddle" prop; fuel injection instead of carburetors; metal control surfaces; airframe lightening, where possible? Anectdotal evidence, from original Flying Tigers and others, seems to indicate that the P-40--while it couldn't out turn a Zero--could turn better than just about any other fighter of the time; it could apparently out-accelerate [early] Spitfires in level flight [at least until the Spit's higher top speed allowed it to catch up]; only the P-47 "Jug" could out-dive it; and the Allison engine's rugged design made it capable of operating at higher than rated power settings [vacuum?] for brief periods. For a pilot aware of and able to use those strengths to try to dictate the terms of a fight, one can see how it would be a formidable weapon, at least early on in the war.

But I digress. I plan to see Red Tails in the theaters, because I want to support this one, CGI "warts" and all. I love warbirds; I admire the Tuskeegee Airmen, and I like the idea of their stories being told and passed on to future generations [just tell it reasonably close to the truth, godda**it!].

I think the Tigers' stories are damned good too, and worthy of rememberance...

Edited August 24, 2011 by reddsun1

[Vespaeda]

reddsun1,

Your probably already in the know--that speculation of 'what-if' the P-40 was allowed to evolve into something more updated did happen; it was just turned down. Considered redundant & only as good as the P-51, which was already dominating in all theatres. Radials were edging out inlines as the preferred, high horsepower engine requiring no coolant system.

see: My link

I agree too...I hope to build this version in R/C someday.

[Ghost Train]

Yo yo yo, this thread got me thinking about society's inequities again... why isn't there a P-51 African American Tuskegee Gal Strike Witch? Them anime is so racist yo... so racist.

[Vespaeda]

...hilarious!!! But, yeah why not.

Throw in a WAAC ferry pilot homage, Mexican Expeditionary AF senorita's for the Philippines Campaign and the Russian "Night Witches" to boot. Any EEOP been left out?

Ground radar control ops lasses, French partisan liaison/ Lysander "night drop" Corp or Bletchley Park 'spooks' of the unspoken persuasion?

Edited September 5, 2011 by Vespaeda

[Keith]

Yo yo yo, this thread got me thinking about society's inequities again... why isn't there a P-51 African American Tuskegee Gal Strike Witch? Them anime is so racist yo... so racist.

They're saving that for the eventual movie

Edited September 5, 2011 by Keith

[Keith]

Did anyone else go to see it? While the acting is about what you'd expect from a Lucas movie, it was still pretty enjoyable, and the dogfight scenes were definately pretty. A nice action counterpart to the more serious/less acitony Tuskeegee Airmen.

[buddhafabio]

a good flick but historically inaccurate.i can forgive dtuff like that though.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Not horribly bad, but not OK either and not looking forward to owning this on Blu or even Netflixing it. Concerning the minor characters, when I watched them and their banter the image of the crows in Dumbo came to mind since I watched it recently with my little Meltran. The only good acting was by Terrence Howard, everything else was just so horribly bad. There was no tension to the combat, I wish it was more like Pearl Harbor's brief, but sweet dogfights. You felt that Affleck's character was in constant danger as he fought against the Luftwaffe. In this movie, not so much, more practical effects would have been nice too, but oh well, it's the 21st century.

[Keith]

Worse than Pearl Harbor? Hardly. And while a lot of the dialogue "was" bad, everything concerning Black Jesus was hilarious.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Worse than Pearl Harbor? Hardly. And while a lot of the dialogue "was" bad, everything concerning Black Jesus was hilarious.

No, not worse than Pearl Harbor, that is what I like to call "Michael Bay Bad" which is very different from "George Lucas Bad."

[myk]

Love Pearl Harbor, especially the part where Hartnett steals a P40, puts Kate Beckinsdale in his lap and flies her up to the sunset, only to land later and then knock her up in a hangar full of silk sheets; best date-move ever and you wish that poor Hikaru coulda had it so good in DYRL.

I definitely want to see Red Tails for the dog-fighting action, and I'm not expecting much in the way of quality of dialogue or, as you guys are saying, quality of story or historical accuracy either...

[Keith]

I actually liked the story, and the worst offender (acting wise) was defintely Cuba, which is odd since he was good in The Tuskeegee Airmen. As for historical accuracy, who watches movies for that?

[Dynaman]

As for historical accuracy, who watches movies for that?

Raises hand. (granted, I'm sorely disappointed most of the time. Some gems stick out however, the Howard Hughes movie and well, the Howard Hughes movie....)

[buddhafabio]

it kinda pissed me off that they had the Tuskeegee Airmen in p 40s in Itally and they only had them in THe north africa campaign. prior to getting P-51s they were in P-47s a fighter that could argueable be equal to the P-51.

[reddsun1]

Love Pearl Harbor, especially the part where Hartnett steals a P40, puts Kate Beckinsdale in his lap and flies her up to the sunset, only to land later and then knock her up in a hangar full of silk sheets; best date-move ever and you wish that poor Hikaru coulda had it so good in DYRL.

I definitely want to see Red Tails for the dog-fighting action, and I'm not expecting much in the way of quality of dialogue or, as you guys are saying, quality of story or historical accuracy either...

"Unlike Tora! Tora! Tora!, [2nd Lt. Ken] Taylor was not consulted for the Pearl Harbor film, and later called the adaptation "... a piece of trash...over-sensationalized and distorted."^[1]"

'nuff said.

Edited February 6, 2012 by reddsun1

[reddsun1]

reddsun1,

Your probably already in the know--that speculation of 'what-if' the P-40 was allowed to evolve into something more updated did happen; it was just turned down. Considered redundant & only as good as the P-51, which was already dominating in all theatres. Radials were edging out inlines as the preferred, high horsepower engine requiring no coolant system.

see: My link

I agree too...I hope to build this version in R/C someday.

Indeed: the Q might have been a real terror in the Pacific, had it been developed with more urgency. Dunno just what it is that's so mezmorizing about the profile of those earlier models, though....

What models were the Tuskeegee Airmen assigned to? E's or later versions?