Shoji Kawamori "created" Macross: load of bull?

[mr.chogokin]

Yeah by all means defer to Kawamori if in doing so improves the overall package quality... but here we get stuff that makes you go "eh wth?" like:

Mplus - where Guld lost his memory, but not after feasting his eyes on the most magnificent pair of boobies. And Isamu dejected for not being able to see them before Guld, ran away.

M7 - At an attempt to be more original than SDF Macross, explores sound further as a form of deterrent / passive weapon, but ultimately fails when the concept is married to a glam rock band whose headman is a self-indulging prick. As if that isn't bad enough, in order for Basara to be the messiah in the show, the entire UN Spacy is made the pariah.

Mzero - Er, were they trying to explain the origins of the aliens but failed miserably or what? Why do they need to explain the aliens through the eyes of the Mayan culture?

Mflontier - A renewal of SDF Macross, maybe? I failed to see that. Primarily, because I cannot stand the character designs - to me it was bad in Macross plus, it got worse in the subsequent sequels and frontier has manage to top all of them for supremely bad. Alto Saotome, are ya fvcking kidding me???

Notice that all that is mentioned above are but the little bad things that I dislike about the sequels, but plays a big part in turning me off. There is too much emphasis on window-dressing more than actually telling a good story.

Maybe they didn't defer to Kawamori on the story in SDF Macross or DYRL. That's why it is till today, fruit-free.

[Gubaba]

Yeah by all means defer to Kawamori if in doing so improves the overall package quality... but here we get stuff that makes you go "eh wth?" like:

Mplus - where Guld lost his memory, but not after feasting his eyes on the most magnificent pair of boobies. And Isamu dejected for not being able to see them before Guld, ran away.

M7 - At an attempt to be more original than SDF Macross, explores sound further as a form of deterrent / passive weapon, but ultimately fails when the concept is married to a glam rock band whose headman is a self-indulging prick. As if that isn't bad enough, in order for Basara to be the messiah in the show, the entire UN Spacy is made the pariah.

Mzero - Er, were they trying to explain the origins of the aliens but failed miserably or what? Why do they need to explain the aliens through the eyes of the Mayan culture?

Mflontier - A renewal of SDF Macross, maybe? I failed to see that. Primarily, because I cannot stand the character designs - to me it was bad in Macross plus, it got worse in the subsequent sequels and frontier has manage to top all of them for supremely bad. Alto Saotome, are ya fvcking kidding me???

Notice that all that is mentioned above are but the little bad things that I dislike about the sequels, but plays a big part in turning me off. There is too much emphasis on window-dressing more than actually telling a good story.

Maybe they didn't defer to Kawamori on the story in SDF Macross or DYRL. That's why it is till today, fruit-free.

Okay... why blame Kawamori?

Mplus: co-directed by Kawamori, written by Keiko Nobumoto.

M7: Kawamori provided the idea, but most of the work was presumably done by the director (Tetsuro Amino) and the head writer (Sukehiro Tomita (who also wrote the lion's share of SDFM episodes, as well as DYRL and MII).

Mzero: Directed by Kawamori, written by Hiroshi Ohnogi (who also wrote about ten episodes of SDFM TV, as well as a bunch of other things, including Orguss and Zeta Gundam).

Mflontier: Kawamori was basically in the same position for this as Noburo Ishiguro was for SDFM TV...supervising the young turks as they went wild and did whatever they wanted.

And uh...lots of Macross has fruit. There are lots of pineapples in SDFM TV and Mac F. Isamu eats a sour fruit in Mac Plus. Mylene has a lemon drink in Mac 7. Tropical fruit is abundant in Mac Zero. I think DYRL and Macross Dynamite 7 are the only ones without fruit.

...unless of course, by "fruit," you mean the hopelessly outdated, rather offensive term for "homosexual," in which case I will point out that Macross Frontier is the only Macross series to feature a homosexual character.

[mr.chogokin]

Why blame Kawamori... come on man, he IS the go-to guy as far as what gets shipped in Macross or not. I would have given him the benefit of doubt if it weren't for the many other non-Macross productions with him in the lead that missed rather than hit. The only titles in the Macross franchise itself than I can't pin the blame on him for the missing magic in the sequels, are the original TV series and the movie because he weren't entirely in charge. The originals aren't perfect mind you, but as far as story, character design, character development, the charm etc... are what magic I can't find in the sequels.

Btw, by "fruit" I meant the needless things that gets put into the sequels by way of indecision, bad decision making or quite simply poorer taste. For example, it's like compiling objects for a still-life drawing, you can't get any interesting composition... so fruit is added. And when you still can't get any interesting result, more fruits are added again; but that is not going anywhere unless you have the "eye" to make thing interesting. As a fan, I felt that Ishiguro had the "eye" for direction more than Kawamori. Maybe I should use "fluff", but it's not constructive either.

[Gubaba]

Why blame Kawamori... come on man, he IS the go-to guy as far as what gets shipped in Macross or not. I would have given him the benefit of doubt if it weren't for the many other non-Macross productions with him in the lead that missed rather than hit. The only titles in the Macross franchise itself than I can't pin the blame on him for the missing magic in the sequels, are the original TV series and the movie because he weren't entirely in charge. The originals aren't perfect mind you, but as far as story, character design, character development, the charm etc... are what magic I can't find in the sequels.

So, like VF5SS said...anything you DON'T like in Macross: blame Kawamori. Anything you DO like: praise his collaborators.

Convenient.

Btw, by "fruit" I meant the needless things that gets put into the sequels by way of indecision, bad decision making or quite simply poorer taste. For example, it's like compiling objects for a still-life drawing, you can't get any interesting composition... so fruit is added. And when you still can't get any interesting result, more fruits are added again; but that is not going anywhere unless you have the "eye" to make thing interesting. As a fan, I felt that Ishiguro had the "eye" for direction more than Kawamori. Maybe I should use "fluff", but it's not constructive either.

So, please...explain to all of us...what exactly was the breakdown between Kawamori-direction in DYRL and Ishiguro-direction. Since we've never had a hard-and-fast answer to this, your information will be a goldmine!

[mr.chogokin]

It's okay, with the wealth of Kawamori-directed anime out there, I'm sure you'll see the light that he's not meant for the director's chair. But happily, we can both agree with what VF5SS said.

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

...unless of course, by "fruit," you mean the hopelessly outdated, rather offensive term for "homosexual," in which case I will point out that Macross Frontier is the only Macross series to feature a homosexual character.

Macross 7 had the purple haired band manager...

[Gubaba]

It's okay, with the wealth of Kawamori-directed anime out there, I'm sure you'll see the light that he's not meant for the director's chair. But happily, we can both agree with what VF5SS said.

So, uh...is this you stating that you CAN'T explain what the DYRL breakdown is...? 'Cause I'm still curious about that, and I figure that anyone who praises Ishiguro and slams Kawamori knows where the split lies.

So, c'mon, be a bro and tell me.

[mr.chogokin]

I already did pointed them out - story, character design, character development, the charm etc... But then as you have also pointed out, the same people who also worked for both directors, I'd say Ishiguro imo is better at distilling what great and what's mediocre than Kawamori. Some directors just do not settle for what's on the menu. Just a personal opinion is all.

Also to quote Azrael from page 1: "Co-creator. While Kawamori wasn't involved in the minute details of Macross, the original concepts did come from him (i.e. the Valks and setting). He mainly focuses on mecha design, he has written episodes, directed episodes, and directed series. Others have developed Macross into its current form, but the original concept began with Kawamori and matured through other people, hence, co-creator. A more effective title for his role these days is probably "Show Runner" or "Executive Producer"...

I don't know if he's unhappy with how things turned out in the end, I'm glad Ishiguro rode him for what we got in the original tv series.

[Gubaba]

I already did pointed them out - story, character design, character development, the charm etc... But then as you have also pointed out, the same people who also worked for both directors, I'd say Ishiguro imo is better at distilling what great and what's mediocre than Kawamori. Some directors just do not settle for what's on the menu. Just a personal opinion is all.

Vague, very vague...

How do you come to your determination of what's Kawamori's and what's Ishiguro's?

[mr.chogokin]

Maybe for you but what I care about is the result. I didn't the "Eh, WTF is this?" moments from SDF & DYRL that I got from the sequels. That's very telling on which master has the higher hand.

[Gubaba]

Maybe for you but what I care about is the result. I didn't the "Eh, WTF is this?" moments from SDF & DYRL that I got from the sequels. That's very telling on which master has the higher hand.

I also didn't get the "Eh, WTF is this?" moments from Star Wars Episode IV that I did from Episode I. Did Shoji Kawamori do that, as well?

[mr.chogokin]

Ok, according to ANN, Ishiguro was the Chief Director and according wikipedia, Kawamori is the writer (co-creator). I see what you're getting at with your SW example. It's just not a good example because Lucas was obviously appealing to different demographics, or he's really lost his edge.

With SDF Macross, you can't overide what the chief director wants even though it's all Kawamori's vision. For all you know SDF & DYRL could have been like Macross 7 or plus or zero or frontier. All I'm saying is Ishiguro threw away the things that made the original series and movie, unkawamori-sequel-like.

[Gubaba]

Ok, according to ANN, Ishiguro was the Chief Director and according wikipedia, Kawamori is the writer (co-creator). I see what you're getting at with your SW example. It's just not a good example because Lucas was obviously appealing to different demographics, or he's really lost his edge.

With SDF Macross, you can't overide what the chief director wants even though it's all Kawamori's vision. For all you know SDF & DYRL could have been like Macross 7 or plus or zero or frontier. All I'm saying is Ishiguro threw away the things that made the original series and movie, unkawamori-sequel-like.

Maybe you should go back and read the thread from the beginnning...

Just sayin'.

[mr.chogokin]

I did. I'm telling you, SDF & DYRL that we love is not completely "created" by Kawamori himself.

And having watched the sequels, I'm even more convinced that it's not.

Edited September 13, 2011 by mr.chogokin

[Gubaba]

I did. I'm telling you, SDF & DYRL that we love is not completely "created" by Kawamori himself.

And having watched the sequels, I'm even more convinced that it's not.

I never said it was...

But can you answer the three questions I posed on the first page? With FACT, not SPECULATION...?

[VF5SS]

It's okay, with the wealth of Kawamori-directed anime out there, I'm sure you'll see the light that he's not meant for the director's chair. But happily, we can both agree with what VF5SS said.

I was being facetious.

I liked Aquarion and Macross Zero. Not everything he does is a success like those Aquarion OVAs but whatever. Tomino can survive and few duds like Brain Powered and Garzey's Wing. Even Ishiguro had his dud with Tytania and parts of Orguss (although that may have been the other director).

When I see pictures of Kawamori in stuff like Macross Age or old issues of magazines where he's playing with his Valkyrie toys (bastard got a new 1/60 VF-1D before it was released) and taking pictures of planes at airshows I still see the same goofy aviation enthusiast.

Give him the guy some credit. Every Macross production with his involvement has been a success.

[mr.chogokin]

FACT: SDF & DYRL had the benefit of experience. The sequels did not.

[Gubaba]

FACT: SDF & DYRL had the benefit of experience. The sequels did not.

Uh-huh...you might want to check Anime News Network before making fallacious statements like that...

In other words, basically, you got nothin' except your own ideas of who did what. NEXT!

[mr.chogokin]

I was being facetious.

I liked Aquarion and Macross Zero. Not everything he does is a success like those Aquarion OVAs but whatever. Tomino can survive and few duds like Brain Powered and Garzey's Wing. Even Ishiguro had his dud with Tytania and parts of Orguss (although that may have been the other director).

When I see pictures of Kawamori in stuff like Macross Age or old issues of magazines where he's playing with his Valkyrie toys (bastard got a new 1/60 VF-1D before it was released) and taking pictures of planes at airshows I still see the same goofy aviation enthusiast.

Give him the guy some credit. Every Macross production with his involvement has been a success.

No worries, as harsh as I sounded, he is definitely still one of the good guys in my book. I wished that the sequels would come close if not exceed the original. Was Aquarion OVA a success? I find it weak. Love the mecha design though.

[Gubaba]

For example: Noboru Ishiguro's first credit is on "Kaibutsu-kun" from 1968. 1982 - 1968= how many years...? And are those years more than the 20 years that Hiroshi Ohnogi has been writing anime between Macross in 1982 and Macross Zero in 2002...?

[mr.chogokin]

Uh-huh...you might want to check Anime News Network before making fallacious statements like that...

In other words, basically, you got nothin' except your own ideas of who did what. NEXT!

I have read your 3 questions. While they may point to Kawamori but that is beside the point because if that alone enough, why did they need to bring in Ishiguro?

As I said, all I care for is the result. What came from Ishiguro and Kawamori as directors in terms for result, are vastly different.

[azrael]

BTW...The Animeigo liner notes for SDFM...great resource.

[Gubaba]

I have read your 3 questions. While they may point to Kawamori but that is beside the point because if that alone enough, why did they need to bring in Ishiguro?

To convince the suits at the TV network to let a bunch of young'uns run wild with this show they created...why else?

BTW...The Animeigo liner notes for SDFM...great resource.

My point exactly. Thank you.

[Gubaba]

Just to add: if you get the novel "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences," there are three people credited on the front flap: Shoji Kawamori, Hiroshi Ohnogi, and Haruhiko Mikimoto.

Ohnogi wrote the novel. Mikimoto illustrated it. Why would Kawamori be credited as well...?

Ditto "Dreaming Prelude: My Fair Minmay." Kawamori wrote the introduction which explains what the book is and why it was written. If Ishiguro were the driving force behind the show, shouldn't he have written that...?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Gubaba

[VF5SS]

The Aquarion TV series was a success. It's basically part of the modern mecha pantheon. I'm not sure about the OVAs.

Edited September 13, 2011 by VF5SS

[mr.chogokin]

Just to add: if you get the novel "Misa Hayase: White Reminiscences," there are three people credited on the front flap: Shoji Kawamori, Hiroshi Ohnogi, and Haruhiko Mikimoto.

Ohnogi wrote the novel. Mikimoto illustrated it. Why would Kawamori be credited as well...?

Ditto "Dreaming Prelude: My Fair Minmay." Kawamori wrote the introduction which explains what the book is and why it was written. If Ishiguro were the driving force behind the show, shouldn't he have written that...?

Fair enough, my contention was with how well the original show & movie seem to tie together so much better, and how the sequels are not as good imo. IF Ishiguro was brought in to convince the suits at the TV network to let a bunch of young'uns run wild with this show they created, they obviously went berserk with the sequels without this check and balance.

Edited September 13, 2011 by mr.chogokin

[Gubaba]

Fair enough, my contention was with how well the original show & movie seem to tie together so much better, and how the sequels are not as good imo. IF Ishiguro was brought in to convince the suits at the TV network to let a bunch of young'uns run wild with this show they created, they obviously went berserk with the sequels without this check and balance.

Except that by that point, they were seasoned opinions themselves...

Now maybe you think Tomita circa 1982 was better than Tomita circa 1992 (when he wrote Macross II) or Tomita circa 1994 (when he wrote most of Macross 7)...or than Ohnogi was better when he plotted out the postwar episodes of SDFM than he was when he wrote Macross Zero...

Or you can just say, "Kawamori's BAD!" because it's, y'know, easier than doing actual RESEARCH.

[Keith]

Am I really seeing a dude with a Gurren Lagann avatar complaining about the Macross sequals?

[VF5SS]

You can tell a lot about people by their avatar.

[Bri]

To convince the suits at the TV network to let a bunch of young'uns run wild with this show they created...why else?

I keep seeing this line (or something to a similar extent) pop up whenever Ishiguro's involvement with SDFM is discussed. Unless I misinterpret it, to me this line suggests a role like some sort of executive producer rather than being actively involved with the production of the show.

Now I'm not questioning Kawamori's position. But I would find it hard to believe that when someone like Ishiguro is around, that the team would not have made use of his skills as a director. To refer to the Star Wars analogy, it's Lucas' baby start to finish, but Kershner's skills as a director (I'm thinking of shots, angles, close ups, pacing etc.) made Empire Strikes Back a better movie. Now I'm far from an expert but when looking at Tytania or Megazone 23 (haven't seen Logh yet) I do see some resemblances (like character shots, vehicle movements, bgm scoring, pacing etc.)to SDFM. Is there any confirmation what he actually did on the show?

[Gubaba]

I keep seeing this line (or something to a similar extent) pop up whenever Ishiguro's involvement with SDFM is discussed. Unless I misinterpret it, to me this line suggests a role like some sort of executive producer rather than being actively involved with the production of the show.

Now I'm not questioning Kawamori's position. But I would find it hard to believe that when someone like Ishiguro is around, that the team would not have made use of his skills as a director. To refer to the Star Wars analogy, it's Lucas' baby start to finish, but Kershner's skills as a director (I'm thinking of shots, angles, close ups, pacing etc.) made Empire Strikes Back a better movie. Now I'm far from an expert but when looking at Tytania or Megazone 23 (haven't seen Logh yet) I do see some resemblances (like character shots, vehicle movements, bgm scoring, pacing etc.)to SDFM. Is there any confirmation what he actually did on the show?

Not that I've seen...but I have a bunch of interviews in various books that I haven't gone through yet.

[isamu]

Well you guys can choose believe this or not I don't care:

I was at Anime Expo when Ishiguro was there several years ago(1999 I think it was) and spoke to him *directly* about his involvement in SDF Macross. He told me *DIRECTLY* to my face that he co-wrote the show and that the *majority* of directorial input came from him. I am not lying and I am not here to bullshit you. This is what he told me while sitting together at the Mari Iijima focus panel.

If any of you REALLY want to hear it from the horses mouth, I suggest you contact Egan loo and find out when Ishiguro will be coming back to AX. He has been there several times since then, and if you catch him at a focus panel or just walking around he will be very kind and open to talking to anyone about Macross.

[Keith]

Well you guys can choose believe this or not I don't care:

I was at Anime Expo when Ishiguro was there several years ago(1999 I think it was) and spoke to him *directly* about his involvement in SDF Macross. He told me *DIRECTLY* to my face that he co-wrote the show and that the *majority* of directorial input came from him. I am not lying and I am not here to bullshit you. This is what he told me while sitting together at the Mari Iijima focus panel.

If any of you REALLY want to hear it from the horses mouth, I suggest you contact Egan loo and find out when Ishiguro will be coming back to AX. He has been there several times since then, and if you catch him at a focus panel or just walking around he will be very kind and open to talking to anyone about Macross.

Uh huh, your blank avatar maens you're lying! nice try though.

[Gubaba]

Well you guys can choose believe this or not I don't care:

I was at Anime Expo when Ishiguro was there several years ago(1999 I think it was) and spoke to him *directly* about his involvement in SDF Macross. He told me *DIRECTLY* to my face that he co-wrote the show and that the *majority* of directorial input came from him. I am not lying and I am not here to bullshit you. This is what he told me while sitting together at the Mari Iijima focus panel.

If any of you REALLY want to hear it from the horses mouth, I suggest you contact Egan loo and find out when Ishiguro will be coming back to AX. He has been there several times since then, and if you catch him at a focus panel or just walking around he will be very kind and open to talking to anyone about Macross.

Huh...that IS odd, since it seems (to me at least) to go against the impression I got from the Ishiguro interviews on the AnimEigo DVDs, as well as the other various circumstantial stuff I've picked up over the years.

I guess we could always ask Renato to ask Ishiguro the next time they run into each other...

[TheLoneWolf]

Animerica 4:9 (1996) contains an interview with Noburo Ishiguro where he modestly downplays his involvement with SDF Macross. He said that he was too busy working on other projects at the time to focus on SDF Macross and credits the show's success to the young staff. He confessed that when the show's sponsors would ask him for status updates, he'd lie and say that everything was going well. In actuality, he didn't know how things were going because he spent most of his time working on other projects. Sorry isamu, but a published interview trumps your anecdote.

As far as Ishiguro's involvment with DYRL goes, all I can say is that we'll have that answer soon.