The Transformers thread

[Twoducks]

Recently got a Leader Sentinel Prime, and WOW!, I like this figure a LOT more than I thought I would. Its my first leader class, and sure was worth it. Its nice to take a break from more complicated Macross Figures for a figure of similar complexity, though really only takes me a few minutes to transform. Lot more fun....

Anywho's, what should I get next? Leader Bee or Ironhide?

People seem to hate on both of them, but I can't understand why

I too got Sentinel and I must say I've had a lot of fun with it. Transformations isn't as frustrating as some people say. I thought the chest looked too stupid from the pics but I'm really glad I got it.

Don't know about Bee but Leader Ironhide has limited articulation and a very very simple transformation. That said, it looks incredibly cool, especially once you unglue the head to move it and keep the mouth piece down. He also has tons of weapon gimmicks. Really happy with it too.

[CoryHolmes]

Just snagged MP Rodimus at my local TRU. (and used my 20% off coupon)

Cerritos TRU, RODI. 7 left. Go/call now!

Re: Masterpiece Rodimus, Toys R Us Ft Lauderdale, FL - 2 or 3 left after I just bought 2.

-b.

The Hasbro Masterpiece Rodimus is now available at all TRU stores in the Metro Manila area for Php 4,000 (roughly US$90).

I hate you all Still haven't found one in Vancouver, BC yet.

[dizman]

I hate you all Still haven't found one in Vancouver, BC yet.

Heh I'm with you, still haven't seen a single one here in NJ. We always seem the last to get anything transformers related.

[anime52k8]

Recently got a Leader Sentinel Prime, and WOW!, I like this figure a LOT more than I thought I would. Its my first leader class, and sure was worth it. Its nice to take a break from more complicated Macross Figures for a figure of similar complexity, though really only takes me a few minutes to transform. Lot more fun....

Anywho's, what should I get next? Leader Bee or Ironhide?

People seem to hate on both of them, but I can't understand why

Leader bumblebee isn't a bad toy per say, it's just that the figure itself isn't a significant improvement over some of the deluxe bee's out there that cost 1/3 the price. Pretty much all the extra money is for the toy to be bigger and to have a giant backpack full of electronics.

The problem with leader Ironhide is that it has a very simplistic transformation, poor articulation, and a lot of obtrusive kibble on the arms and back in order to accommodate a large number of electronics and action features. It's really not good leader class figure and is much more in line with an Ultimate class figure like RotF ultimate bumblebee (i.e. being a large figure built entirely around supporting lots of gimmicks).

Unfortunately, if you want another Leader figure like Sentinel Prime you're going to have to go hunting for either a Leader Starscream, or some version of the RotF leader Optimus.

[Archer]

Leader bumblebee isn't a bad toy per say, it's just that the figure itself isn't a significant improvement over some of the deluxe bee's out there that cost 1/3 the price. Pretty much all the extra money is for the toy to be bigger and to have a giant backpack full of electronics.

The problem with leader Ironhide is that it has a very simplistic transformation, poor articulation, and a lot of obtrusive kibble on the arms and back in order to accommodate a large number of electronics and action features. It's really not good leader class figure and is much more in line with an Ultimate class figure like RotF ultimate bumblebee (i.e. being a large figure built entirely around supporting lots of gimmicks).

Unfortunately, if you want another Leader figure like Sentinel Prime you're going to have to go hunting for either a Leader Starscream, or some version of the RotF leader Optimus.

Thanks for the reply. I really like leader starscream's robot mode, but HATE his alt mode. Its just WAY to large in the hull area for me to consider it a legitimate F-22, no matter how well engineered it is. I'm waiting for striker optimus prime before I get that mold (largely due to the fact that he comes with a gun and shield to face off against sentinel's sword and shield). I think I might get bumblebee for that awesome stealth mode....

[Negotiator]

I can't help but wonder if they could have got leader SS more streamlined without the gimmicks. I'd say if anyone was curios about leader ironhide, that they save the receipt. Also make sure his knife is in the box. Mine didn't come with one, but wasn't a big deal for me.

[David Hingtgen]

Well, leader Jetfire could have been half as thick without the electronics.

[kanedaestes]

Cause in America kids like noises, lights and sounds, who cares of the alt mode is crappy cause of it, kids will buy it because they talk.....Suckers......

[treatment]

My wife wanted to go to Target to buy plastic totes... I didn't want to, because I was just there buying a movie for my dad for his birthday, but I'm glad she talked me into it. Major jackpot. I scored Wheeljack, Thundercracker, Kup, and Warpath. Since I'd already collected the four War for Cybertron guys, Jazz, Tracks, and Laser Prime, I think (but correct me if I'm wrong) I'm just missing Perceptor and Wreck-Gar.

EDIT: I forgot about, but do have, Dirge, Thunderwing, Darkmount/Staxus, Blurr, Scourge, and Peg/Drift. I did not forget Red Alert, Skullgrin or the fifth War for Cybertron guy (that'd be Cliffjumper). I didn't like WfC Bumblebee's mold, I don't (despite having Sideswipe and Sunstreaker) Red Alert's mold, and Skullgrin never made enough of an impact on me to buy his mold agian.

Both Target and Wally's over here have been stocking up on those. Was surprised to see two WheelJacks last weekend.

Except for WarPath.

But.

They are still stocking up on their favorite SkullGrin.

[areaseven]

Cause in America kids like noises, lights and sounds, who cares of the alt mode is crappy cause of it, kids will buy it because they talk.....Suckers......

But kids don't like toys anymore. They like video games, Facebook and iPods. Toys don't satisfy them anymore when it comes to lights and sounds.

[JB0]

Cause in America kids like noises, lights and sounds, who cares of the alt mode is crappy cause of it, kids will buy it because they talk.....Suckers......

What sort of jerk designs toys for KIDS? The damn whipersnappers are RUINING my toys!

...

Well, okay, they ARE ruining my toys. I WANTED to want Leader Jetfire, but the whole robot hang-glider thing was unignorable for me.

Edited August 16, 2011 by JB0

[RD Blade]

I WANTED to want Leader Jetfire, but the whole robot hang-glider thing was unignorable for me.

Yep. They didn't even try to hide the robot kibble. Coloring them black would've done wonders. But damn if the jet isn't gorgeous from overhead.

[CoryHolmes]

But damn if the jet isn't gorgeous from overhead.

Inherited from the source vehicle.

[Limbo]

Inherited from the source vehicle.

My problem with most of the movie toys is that almost no parts of the vehicles are actually used on the robots. On both Starscream and Jetfire you basically have a jet with a huge folded robot underneath it, and the transformation is basically fold the jet as a giant backpack.

Sad, considering movie Starscream could have used a very similar transformation to a Yamato VF-22, buy like was said above, the damn sound and lights didn't allow it to.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Limbo

[Archer]

I would go as far as saying that, from what I've seen in pictures, Leader ROTF Optimus Prime, as heavily coveted as he already is, could have been a LOT more movie accurate and streamlined if he had no battery box compartment within the chest (which is good for one lousy "I am Optimus Prime").

I would recon he would have looked a lot like the DMK-01 model of Optimus Prime....

[knoted]

Sad, considering movie Starscream could have used a very similar transformation to a Yamato VF-22, buy like was said above, the damn sound and lights didn't allow it to.

NONE of the VF jets are realistic real life jets. None of them have to emulate the shape of a real life jet like Starscream's F22 or heck, even G1 Starscream's F15. This fact alone, already makes a big difference.

All of a VF battroid's limbs are robot kibble in plain sight just as much as Leader class Starscream's / Jetfire's. ( The difference is that a VF's legs & arms are styled in similar style to

the panel lines of the fantasy jet, thus fandom has accepted this as 'realistic' / non-kibble. So, the supposed argument a VF toy does it 'better' than a TF toy, is a falacy. )

That said, although I really like the movie Starscream design ... I dislike the Leader class Starscream ( a lot of undercarriage mass at the rear, beneath thrust nozzles ).

Indeed, due to electronic gizmo's, his engineering was compromised. However, ROTF voyager Starscream and DOTM deluxe Starscream do feature quite brilliant mold engineering and fun transformation schemes.

Considering the constraints of their size class and budget - especially the new DOTM deluxe mold - , they strike a good balance between design of the CGi robot mode and the shape of the actual F22 jet.

Leader class Jetfire is a similar but slightly different story. His jet mode is pretty tricky to work with when it comes to transforming it into a robot. Also, the mold had to cater for combining with Optimus Prime.

Edited August 16, 2011 by knoted

[kanedaestes]

Haven't we all ready been down this road before? Limbs aren't kibble on a VF as they are fully integrated into the fighter as is their design, unlike all transformers figures where you see 80 percent of the robot underneath the jet. Kibble comes from one part of a transforming toy not integrating fully with the other part. TF fighters are notorious for this. The best fighter/ plane mode is Masterpiece Starscream (not the movie version), unfortunaly when in bot mode there is hip kibble. Despite the fact the VFs are not actual planes they are heavily based on real world designs. Shoji redesigns them to eliminate kibble thus all parts of the fighter are present and accounted for in Battroid and vice versa as can be seen in the Macross Design Works and other source material. And last I check there are futuristic designs in TF whether they be jets or other and still kibble is present on the toys thus negating your arguement.

Edited August 16, 2011 by kanedaestes

[knoted]

Haven't we all ready been down this road before?

As long as people keep bashing TF's for that reason...

Limbs aren't kibble on a VF as they are fully integrated into the fighter as is their design

Point is ; the VF fighter design is non realistic in the FIRST place. They don't have to adhere a strict, realistic jet shape like a Transformer has to. Let's have Yamato try to engineer a VF which transforms into any realistic jet (F22, F35, F16 etc.) and I bet you, they will have to make the same compromises as Hasbro has to.

The fandom has gotten so used to VF's fantasy jet design, that they even try to defend these fanta shapes as 'realistic' jet. heavily infleunced by realword jets ? Yeah... lots of margin for trying to blend in robot parts as long as they look like jet panels.

With TF jets it's like the computer graphics' uncanny valley effect, when it comes to realistic styled human characters ; even the smallest difference will stick out like a sore thumb, because we know the real thing so well.

Edited August 16, 2011 by knoted

[kanedaestes]

Still be better than Hasbro. Actually to prove my point Shoji is the one who designed Masterpiece Starscream and the only kibble was hip kibble which i usually detach from the hips and add to the legs anyway. So a better designer still turned in a better product. Also we aren't necessarily bashing them just pointing out the obvious. I have Leader Starscream and I enjoy him greatly, I have jetfire too but only to combine with prime. A lot of us are huge TF fans, but their kibble is still a point of issue.

Edited August 16, 2011 by kanedaestes

[knoted]

Still be better than Hasbro. Actually to prove my point Shoji is the one who designed Masterpiece Starscream and the only kibble was hip kibble which i usually detach from the hips and add to the legs anyway. So a better designer still turned in a better product.

Correct me if I'm mistaken - but didn't he merely make small adjustments to a prototype MP Starscream design which was already there ? In fact, Shoji's adjustments lead to the dreaded hip kibble.

And that's just one single jet design. In VF design, a lot of the transformation schemes remain very similar with similar robot modes, with increasingly less realistic jetmodes. TF designers have to create a lot of heavily varying robot modes with very different transformation schemes for a line up of realistic jetmodes within all kinds of size/budget classes. I didn't get Leader Starscream nor Jetfire ; because imo, Hasbro dropped the ball there ; both their Deluxe and voyager Starscream are imo, better.

Edited August 16, 2011 by knoted

[kanedaestes]

He was the design supervisor, everything i have seen states it was his design. Plus the only thing that changed from the prototype is how the stuff on the legs were moved to the hips but it is all the same. And once again he has the foresight to try and envision the toy to work in all modes, while Hasbro either wants a good bot or a good alt most times. From recent lines, the Human Alliance is the best of both worlds that they can offer, that and the Animated line which I loved. While simple they proved in the animated line they can make screen acturate toys in both modes.....except for starscream, who was a stylistic future jet and still had kibble. Actually the Generations line is pretty decent at it too, so why screw up the movie figs?

Edited August 16, 2011 by kanedaestes

[knoted]

He was the design supervisor, everything i have seen states it was his design. Plus the only thing that changed from the prototype is how the stuff on the legs were moved to the hips but it is all the same.

Ok, but the overal design style & layout was the original Diaclone mold and the schematics of the G1 cartoon.

Screwing up the movie figs ? Really...I think it'll be a tougher feat to engineer a perfect F22 TF, than we think. Certainly, if said Hasbro designer has to work within constraints, Shoji doesn't have to worry about.

Edited August 16, 2011 by knoted

[kanedaestes]

I don't think it would be hard. You just need to think of what the bot should look like with the parts that the F-22 all ready has. Shoji does that, and I am sure if given the challenger he could make it work. You keep bringing up the fact VFs aren't real fighters, but you gloss over the fact that most of them are based on real fighters. He is very smart in his designs, and he adjust real world designs to make a functioning transforming robot without pieces that mysteriously appear or disappear. When the movies were designed they honestly didn't take into affect how the transformations would work, they just wanted cool looking robots, thus the movie designes are flawed anyway as those robots couldn't possibly transform into those vehicles with the parts that are shown. If they thought about the designs a bit more to make them show all parts for both modes the bots would look very different, and more like their alt modes than they do. Hmm much like oh I don't know the original designs of Transformers.

Edited August 16, 2011 by kanedaestes

[VF5SS]

Let's have Yamato try to engineer a VF which transforms into any realistic jet (F22, F35, F16 etc.) and I bet you, they will have to make the same compromises as Hasbro has to.

uhm no?

Dude face it, even Gobots had better jet modes that Transformers. Case in point, toys like Heat Seeker, Bad Boy, Leader-1, and Royal-T have better jet modes. Their robot modes are a little quirky, but I can forgive them because they're small, simple toys. And hey, they can look cool when drawn.

There are some good jet TFs like Stratosphere although he's a transport plane and not a fighter.

We're over 25 years into this gig and most jet TFs haven't risen above a G1 Aerialbot.

[knoted]

I don't think it would be hard. You just need to think of what the bot should look like with the parts that the F-22 all ready has.

That could work maybe. But using this method in context of toy engineering, you're going to limit the robot design to blocky chunks for limbs, which either slide in and out or fold up in a straight manner.

You keep bringing up the fact VFs aren't real fighters, but you gloss over the fact that most of them are based on real fighters. He is very smart in his designs, and he adjust real world designs to make a functioning transforming robot without pieces that mysteriously appear or disappear.

His endresults are still fantasy jets which give him a lot of leeway to get away with robotlimbs hanging under and sitting ontop of a basic fuselage. The styling of the outer casing and panels completes the illusion of some sort of styled unity. The fantasy design basically IS the excuse for being non-realistic.

The basic principle is like this :

designer A : gets to design a jetformer toy which isn't constricted to a real F22 and he gets years to refine one single basic design without cost/size constraints.

designer B : gets to design a jetformer toy which has to come as close as possible to a real F22 and he needs to do this within strict cost/size constraints for a wide array of size/budget classes.

Now, I think we can all agree designer A has the easier job here. Most of the VF's are simply an evolution of one single fantasy design. Of course, that's going to be the easier job. Also, most of his recent VF designs are, imo, looking less and less realistic.

When the movies were designed they honestly didn't take into affect how the transformations would work, they just wanted cool looking robots, thus the movie designes are flawed anyway as those robots couldn't possibly transform into those vehicles with the parts that are shown.

You have to give the Hasbro toy designers some credit here. They don't design the character, ILM did.

ILM stated the complex CGi transformations only cheat a little, but their designs do work with a believable transformation layout. However, Hasbro can't possibly translate such complex Cgi engineering 1 on 1 into toys. Certainly not within size/budget constraints which many high end VF toys do not have.

Remember, we're talking all mass market Transformers toys here, not just TF Masterpiece class and high end Yamato/Bandai VF's. That said, the Hasbro toy designers did some fantastic work to emulate both the TF movie Cgi botmodes and the real life F22 within constraints ; resulting into fantastic enjoyable TF toys within the $ 10 to $ 25 range (deluxe and voyager class respectively).

Anyone should be able to acknowledge that, regardless of personal aesthetics preferences.

Hmm much like oh I don't know the original designs of Transformers.

Let's keep it all G1 ! Yeah, sure that's THE solution.

We're over 25 years into this gig and most jet TFs haven't risen above a G1 Aerialbot.

Oh please. Yeah, Universe Silverbolt is still one of the worst robots-with-a-jet for-backpack TF. But that's what you get for hanging on to blocky-formers.

Instead, take a look at this video and see why even a G1 purist like Thew, likes the new movieverse mold :

For anyone interested : Finally, the movieverse seeker trio is now complete : Skywarp, Thundercracker and Starscream gallery

Edited August 17, 2011 by knoted

[Renato]

I don't think it would be hard. You just need to think of what the bot should look like with the parts that the F-22 all ready has.

A picture of an ingenious, fan-designed F-22 robot has been posted on these forums many times. I think the designer was a member here? Anyway, it was really well done. Does anyone have it? Of course, actually engineering a toy out of that design is something else entirely, but it shows a perfect transformation is possible.

[VF5SS]

Oh please. Yeah, Universe Silverbolt is still one of the worst robots-with-a-jet for-backpack TF. But that's what you get for hanging on to blocky-formers.

jeez mang, keep your anti-geewun down.

Instead, take a look at this video and see why even a G1 purist like Thew, likes the new movieverse mold :

It's a bit of a stretch to call Thew a G1 purist considering the depth of toys he likes. I like Thew and his reviews. He's just so British. Now I don't see how it's helping your case when the bottom of that Thundercracker toy is still a mess of robot parts. Well maybe the parts are neatly arranged but they're still clearly robot parts.

Seriously, they don't pull this crap with car or truck Transformers.

[knoted]

jeez mang, keep your anti-geewun down.

Ehm, how can my post be anti G1 if you claim none of them have improved in one way or another in the past 25 years ?

Now I don't see how it's helping your case

...When can you finally see that the mold is a good and fun toy solution considering its contextual constraints.

- From a number of angles it does the F22 justice. In its distribution of mass, I'd say it does a better job than the Leader class mold.

- It enables a robot design aesthetic very different than anime mecha /TF G1/MP or Classics.

- Nice articulation coupled with a yet again a very different and fun transformation schematic.

- It does all this at mass market price point approx. $10 to $15.

I'd say that's a major toy design accomplishment....imo, moreso than some of the VF designs; which may "seem" realistic to some people just because of its panel lining aesthetic; While they are in fact highly skewed jets, in order to enable a typical anime robot design at 1/60 or 1/48 scale and $100 price point.

Edited August 17, 2011 by knoted

[anime52k8]

Seriously, they don't pull this crap with car or truck Transformers.

your joking right?

[mikeszekely]

OK, back up the train a minute.

I really like leader starscream's robot mode, but HATE his alt mode.

I can't help but wonder if they could have got leader SS more streamlined without the gimmicks.

Well, leader Jetfire could have been half as thick without the electronics.

I WANTED to want Leader Jetfire, but the whole robot hang-glider thing was unignorable for me.

On both Starscream and Jetfire you basically have a jet with a huge folded robot underneath it, and the transformation is basically fold the jet as a giant backpack.

I think, despite not specifically mentioning the class in the last quote, that we're complaining about how disappointing Leader Starscream and Leader Jetfire were. Limbo goes on to suggest that if not for the electronics, Starscream (again, assumed to be Leader since he's the only one with electronics) could have used a transformation similar to a Yamato VF-22, and that the toy would have been improved for it, sparking knoted's defense of Hasbro by pointing out that a plane designed to transform into a robot is different than taking a plane not designed to be a robot and making it a robot anyway. Which is where you guys lost me.

For one, I think we all agree that Valkyries and the expensive toys made of them are indeed a different beast than the mass-market, under $50 Transformers. The point of contention seems to be this quote from knoted:

All of a VF battroid's limbs are robot kibble in plain sight just as much as Leader class Starscream's / Jetfire's. ( The difference is that a VF's legs & arms are styled in similar style to

the panel lines of the fantasy jet, thus fandom has accepted this as 'realistic' / non-kibble. So, the supposed argument a VF toy does it 'better' than a TF toy, is a falacy. )

Leave aside the issue of what is/is not kibble on a Valkyrie; this statement is already made moot by the one before it.

NONE of the VF jets are realistic real life jets. None of them have to emulate the shape of a real life jet like Starscream's F22 or heck, even G1 Starscream's F15. This fact alone, already makes a big difference.

Agreed! It is a big difference. Acknowledging the difference doesn't make Leader Starscream or Leader Jetfire any less disappointing, though. And knoted agrees that Leader Starscream, at least, is disappointing.

I dislike the Leader class Starscream ( a lot of undercarriage mass at the rear, beneath thrust nozzles ). Indeed, due to electronic gizmo's, his engineering was compromised.

That's the point of the earlier quotes too. Leader Jetfire and Leader Starscream were both thick, kibbly toys that could have been less so if not for the electronics. But then we go here:

ROTF voyager Starscream and DOTM deluxe Starscream do feature quite brilliant mold engineering and fun transformation schemes

The fact that the Voyager and the new deluxe mold are better than the Leader-class mold emphasizes the problems with the Leader molds. knoted seems inclined to defend movie Starscream by pointing out that he has good toys, but I think the discussion to this point wasn't that movie Starscream sucked, it was that Leader Starscream sucked.

[knoted]

think the discussion to this point wasn't that movie Starscream sucked, it was that Leader Starscream sucked.

True, but Kanedaestes and VF5SS chimed in, implying something with "Hmm much like oh I don't know, the original designs of Transformers." and quite the bold statement of "We're over 25 years into this gig and most jet TFs haven't risen above a G1 Aerialbot." respectively.

Sure, I can understand some people disliking the movie designs. That's their personal right and choice. But I think it's just not right to pass off all the TF movie character iterations as crap, just because of a compromised Leader class toy. Especially if we're comparing him to a high end Valk which isn't hindered by realism, nor electro gizmo's and which sits at about double the price point and development time.

Edited August 17, 2011 by knoted

[dizman]

So in the end electronic features ruin otherwise good toy design. That was the point of the last 15 or so posts right?

[VF5SS]

Ehm, how can my post be anti G1 if you claim none of them have improved in one way or another in the past 25 years ?

...When can you finally see that the mold is a good and fun toy solution considering its contextual constraints.

- From a number of angles it

yeah all from above amirite

- It enables a robot design aesthetic very different than anime mecha /TF G1/MP or Classics.

I don't know if monkeyjet is really something to be proud of but I also am not convinced you need to sacrifice the jet mode just to have something like monkeyjet. Stratosphere certainly looks fine as a jet even if that jet is a weird amalgamation of real life designs. Breakaway almost gets it right but he's still got chunky legs and those weird hand-feet that don't hide themselves at all.

I'd say that's a major toy design accomplishment....imo, moreso than some of the VF designs; which may "seem" realistic to some people just because of its panel lining aesthetic; While they are in fact highly skewed jets, in order to enable a typical anime robot design at 1/60 or 1/48 scale and $100 price point.

Man what's your beef with Valkyries? I'm not sure why you call them "highly skewed jets" when they're mostly realistically styled jets with a little sci-fi thrown in. And need I remind you that Valkyries were also mass market items (and might still be if you count the Revoltechs or Toynami toys).

[areaseven]

- What two Transformers could possibly be worse?

[knoted]

yeah all from above amirite

Jet designs such as the F22, the F35 and even the good old F117 are very unforgiving jet designs. Any deviation to their very typical and exact shape, will stand out as inaccurate.

So, when we put aside the fact there's going to be robo kibble no matter what ; it comes down to HOW elegant they can tuck away that kibble and extra-mass. As such, the consensus is that the new Deluxe and Voyager do a better job of handling that kibble/mass, than the Leader version.

I don't know if monkeyjet is really something to be proud of but I also am not convinced you need to sacrifice the jet mode just to have something like monkeyjet.

This is where the complexities of a CGi transformation simply cannot be replicated exactly into a 15 dollar toy. With that in mind I think the endresult is quite the accomplishement (speaking about the new deluxe mold), even if one doesn't like the style of the robot design.

Man what's your beef with Valkyries?

None, I still think most of them are friggin' awesome...however, it shouldn't mean I should label them as realistically superior in these apples & oranges comparisons to cheaper jet TF's.

I'm not sure why you call them "highly skewed jets" when they're mostly realistically styled jets with a little sci-fi thrown in.

Well, their structural designs are in fact skewed realism, no ? Just like many jet Transformers which Hasbro didn't get a toy license for ( your Breakaway & Stratosphere examples as well as ROTF Mindwipe, ROTF Dirge, Universe Powerglide etc. ), many of thoe VF's feature questionably elongated canopies, questionable placement & surface volume of stabilizers and winglets, canopy bubble upon canopy (VF22) and all sorts of extra jet engines like Classics Ramjet has them, worked into thin wings which I doubt would be able to retain structural intergrity.

It's like a longsleeve t-shirt with a tuxedo print ; just because it's tuxedo styled, doesn't mean it's a real tuxedo.

And need I remind you that Valkyries were also mass market items (and might still be if you count the Revoltechs or Toynami toys).

I think modern market working has proven they address a smaller niche market, even if they do provide some cheaper alternatives ( still not really within the $10 - $25 range though )

That was the point of the last 15 or so posts right?

Not really. It's moreso about coming to understanding about the constraints, the Hasbro toy designers have to work with. In case of the movie TF designs, the Hasbro guys often got incomplete Cgi source material to work with, then having to work that into a $15 toy mold. Hence, it's an apples/oranges comparison between a high end VF product and a mass market TF jet-former.