Archer Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 No, I mentioned the VF-19S ankles would be improved. Basically, the tray that holds the ankle ball joint on the VF-19S will now have a metal plating, compared to just being painted as on the VF-19Kai. Using a metal plating allows Yamato to control the thickness of the plating more accurately compared with the layer of paint on the VF-19Kai. This should increas friction and have less wear compared to paint. I don't know about the VF-17S ankles, whether they are ball or ratchet joints. I have emailed Yamato today to ask. Graham Thanks for doing that. If they are ratchets, than I have no problem whatsoever buying this. Its just that my experiences with ball joints haven't been so pleasant... Anyhow, does anyone know if there will be a lot of diecast similar to the VF-19?
eugimon Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 Hmmm.........perhaps people should try using a little less 'force'. The words "force" and "transforming plastic toys" are never a good mix. Seriously, if I had a spare junker VF-19, it would be an interesting experiment to see how much force is needed to force the socket apart. Haven't experienced this problem on my two VF-19 and I'm not gentle with them either. Not rough, but not gentle. Graham you definitely have to force it to get it to loosen up. The problem is that the lip of the socket makes it look like the feet should be able to angle forwards or backwards much deeper than the joint itself will allow. So you get to a point where finger pressure isn't enough to get the position you want and then if you keep pushing, the foot will move but by then you've pried the two halves of the socket apart and it will no longer hold the ankle steady in a neutral pose.
m0n5t3r Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 i don't mind the ball joint ankles if only they put some meat on those skinny ankles... as it is now, it looks like the chunky lower leg of the VF-19 is connected to its foot by just bone. if they can include those fillers for the back of the thighs maybe they can include something for those ankles.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I want lots of ratchets and detents on this bad boy. Can't wait to see the VF17D that head sculpt was so bad ass. Speaking of heads, hope they're on ball joints. VF17 has one of the best battroids designed. General Galaxy FTW
Mommar Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 Hmmm.........perhaps people should try using a little less 'force'. The words "force" and "transforming plastic toys" are never a good mix. Seriously, if I had a spare junker VF-19, it would be an interesting experiment to see how much force is needed to force the socket apart. Haven't experienced this problem on my two VF-19 and I'm not gentle with them either. Not rough, but not gentle. Graham No offense to anyone here but I've always been curious what the definition of "force" has been for most of the guys around here. It makes me think back to a video I saw concerning men and the complaints women had about sex with them. 90% of men thought they were being gentle when in reality it was more like they were punching a woman in the crotch. I know based on a lot of the video reviews I've seen I've always felt like there has been way too much force applied to most of the toys during transformations and wouldn't be surprised if some of those toys eventually broke.
charger69 Posted September 28, 2011 Author Posted September 28, 2011 To avoid all this "Too much force" ambiguity, Yamato should put a video guide for all of their Macross products on Youtube! They did it for VF-19Kai and I'm pretty sure it helped the owners a lot.
Mommar Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 To avoid all this "Too much force" ambiguity, Yamato should put a video guide for all of their Macross products on Youtube! They did it for VF-19Kai and I'm pretty sure it helped the owners a lot. That is a pretty good idea. Though we did still find ways to break it in many spots.
m0n5t3r Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 To avoid all this "Too much force" ambiguity, Yamato should put a video guide for all of their Macross products on Youtube! They did it for VF-19Kai and I'm pretty sure it helped the owners a lot. that's why i prefer ratchet joints... just let the buyers know the max number of detents a certain ratchet joint has... esp. when every other recent valk Yamato has made has 4-5 detents for the thigh joint and then limit the VF-19's to only 3 detents.
kamadoma Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) I think the "force" enough to dislodge the ankles is when you try to move the ankles forward/backward to pull off an aggressive Gerwalk. That means pushing the foot more than the angle allowed, which was shown here. Like the others, I do want the VF-17 to have ratchet ankles. But if they don't, I wouldn't complain a lot either since chances are they are already fixed like on the 19S. Seeing that Yamato's addressing the issue on the 19S, they would probably discard the initial ball-joint design on the Kai and use the better one for the rest of their releases, much like what they did with the initial crotch hatch and tinted canopies of the VF-1 v.2 Edited September 28, 2011 by kamadoma
Mommar Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 No, I mentioned the VF-19S ankles would be improved. Basically, the tray that holds the ankle ball joint on the VF-19S will now have a metal plating, compared to just being painted as on the VF-19Kai. Using a metal plating allows Yamato to control the thickness of the plating more accurately compared with the layer of paint on the VF-19Kai. This should increas friction and have less wear compared to paint. I don't know about the VF-17S ankles, whether they are ball or ratchet joints. I have emailed Yamato today to ask. Graham I thought there was something about increasing range of motion as well but maybe I'm going crazy.
kamadoma Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 If my hunch is correct, the improvement of the ankles mean you can move them even more without fear of dislodging them like on the Kai.
Chronocidal Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 you definitely have to force it to get it to loosen up. The problem is that the lip of the socket makes it look like the feet should be able to angle forwards or backwards much deeper than the joint itself will allow. So you get to a point where finger pressure isn't enough to get the position you want and then if you keep pushing, the foot will move but by then you've pried the two halves of the socket apart and it will no longer hold the ankle steady in a neutral pose. I'll repost this here for an illustration. I was really careful not to spread the ankle joint when I did this, and this is about as far as the ankle will go. I moved the ankle only to the point where it looked like the ankle shaft was starting to press on the rim of the ball joint, and this is how far it moved. Compared with every other ankle Yamato has made, it has almost no range of motion at all. I'm hoping they can improve this somewhat on the VF-19, but I don't have my hopes up. And I really hope they don't make this same mistake on the VF-17. Good thing I like fighter mode more anyway.
eugimon Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I'll repost this here for an illustration. I was really careful not to spread the ankle joint when I did this, and this is about as far as the ankle will go. I moved the ankle only to the point where it looked like the ankle shaft was starting to press on the rim of the ball joint, and this is how far it moved. Compared with every other ankle Yamato has made, it has almost no range of motion at all. I'm hoping they can improve this somewhat on the VF-19, but I don't have my hopes up. And I really hope they don't make this same mistake on the VF-17. Good thing I like fighter mode more anyway. yup, the range you're showing is the same range as I found that I could get, safely, before the socket fails and the ankle joint becomes useless. IMO, the yamato ball joint design is a good one on paper. The bottom half of the ball is actually a plastic piece that is pegged and glued onto the metal shaft and upper hemisphere of the ball portion of the joint. This should give the joint a much longer life than the metal on metal ball joints that are found on the DX line. Hopefully the issue is what Yamato thinks it is and there is paint pooling in the socket causing that part to be malformed.
Mommar Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I'll repost this here for an illustration. I was really careful not to spread the ankle joint when I did this, and this is about as far as the ankle will go. I moved the ankle only to the point where it looked like the ankle shaft was starting to press on the rim of the ball joint, and this is how far it moved. Compared with every other ankle Yamato has made, it has almost no range of motion at all. I'm hoping they can improve this somewhat on the VF-19, but I don't have my hopes up. And I really hope they don't make this same mistake on the VF-17. Good thing I like fighter mode more anyway. Does the "toe" joint make up for the lack of ankle movement?
Chronocidal Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I want to say no, but I haven't tested that myself. The toe and heel have two stable positions that they click into, but I don't think the hinges have any sort of tension to them that would support the weight of any poses that use intermediate positions.
Mommar Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I want to say no, but I haven't tested that myself. The toe and heel have two stable positions that they click into, but I don't think the hinges have any sort of tension to them that would support the weight of any poses that use intermediate positions. The toes have clickable positions? That's way better then those damn floppy toes on the Hi-metal VF-1's.
kamadoma Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 The toe joints on mine don't click and I don't think they do. What clicks in that area is the main metal shaft as you push/pull it out of the whole leg cavity.
Archer Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 The problem with those pull out ankles that I found is that, at least the first few times over, you need to apply a LOT of force to get them out, as they are ridiculously tight in the leg. Took me all I had to pull them out, and to be honest, at that level, careful control of force isn't really an option, and you can't really control how hard your pulling the ankle out once it starts to move. In my experience, while pulling out, after enough force, the ankle just slid out real quickly, and I didn't have much control over how far the ankle was being pulled. It just went as far as it could I guess lol. I don't know, but this might be why my ankles are so loose. For those that haven't transformed it or bought one yet, DEFINITELY loosen the screw a bit in that area to make pulling the ankle out easier. I would assume the same applies to the VF-17 if ball joints are going to be used.
Reïvaj Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) The problem with those pull out ankles that I found is that, at least the first few times over, you need to apply a LOT of force to get them out, as they are ridiculously tight in the leg. Took me all I had to pull them out, and to be honest, at that level, careful control of force isn't really an option, and you can't really control how hard your pulling the ankle out once it starts to move. In my experience, while pulling out, after enough force, the ankle just slid out real quickly, and I didn't have much control over how far the ankle was being pulled. It just went as far as it could I guess lol. I don't know, but this might be why my ankles are so loose. For those that haven't transformed it or bought one yet, DEFINITELY loosen the screw a bit in that area to make pulling the ankle out easier. I would assume the same applies to the VF-17 if ball joints are going to be used. I can pull the ankles out without effort by following the Instructions Manual’s 2 steps for doing so. Also see what these Yamato guys do in these old videos: anything but force. Edited September 30, 2011 by Reïvaj
Mommar Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 I can pull the ankles out without effort by following the Instructions Manual’s 2 steps for doing so. Also see what these Yamato guy do in these old videos: anything but force. Damn, I can't wait for my S, F and P after watching those videos. Something I did notice in that second video is they're using the fact the ankles tilt left and right farther than forward/back plus the legs being splayed to make an aggressive a stance instead of adjusting the ankles forward/back to get the same pose. It's not impossible to get something really aggressive you just can't do it with the legs straight forward/back.
dizman Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Whoa that VF-17 is perfect! I can't wait till it goes on a clearance sale in a year so I can actually buy it. Edited September 29, 2011 by dizman
Reïvaj Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Damn, I can't wait for my S, F and P after watching those videos. Something I did notice in that second video is they're using the fact the ankles tilt left and right farther than forward/back plus the legs being splayed to make an aggressive a stance instead of adjusting the ankles forward/back to get the same pose. It's not impossible to get something really aggressive you just can't do it with the legs straight forward/back. Voilà ! And by doing so the ankles should never get loose...
Archer Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Oh yeah, I meant to ask, but has there been any news regarding the cockpit block of the battroid mode? I guess we can assume that it will open, as did the VF-19 figure, but it'd be great to hear a confirmation!
Mommar Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Voilà ! And by doing so the ankles should never get loose... Can I just thank you for spelling "Voilà " correct and not confusing it for some nonsense word beginning with a "W."
s001 Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 I really want a "P" but no way I'm paying almost 300 dollars on a single valk. I mean, throw another 100 and you can get a giant customizable SDF-1!
MacrossJunkie Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Can I just thank you for spelling "Voilà " correct and not confusing it for some nonsense word beginning with a "W." Or for a certain stringed instrument similar to a violin. Back on topic, I think I might hold off on getting the 17S. That sculpt looks pretty awesome, but with the release being so close to the 19S and the price tag of close to $300 coupled with the holiday shopping season rapidly approaching, I think I'm going to opt to get the 19S when it's released and hold off on the 17 until the D variant comes out. The D's head unit looks far better to me, anyway.
Lonely Soldier Boy Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Or for a certain stringed instrument similar to a violin. Back on topic, I think I might hold off on getting the 17S. That sculpt looks pretty awesome, but with the release being so close to the 19S and the price tag of close to $300 coupled with the holiday shopping season rapidly approaching, I think I'm going to opt to get the 19S when it's released and hold off on the 17 until the D variant comes out. The D's head unit looks far better to me, anyway. I was thinking the very same thing.
Renato Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Or for a certain stringed instrument similar to a violin. Yeah, people do that ALL THE TIME on this forum, it was infuriating and I don't call out anyone anymore because when I did once or twice they just didn't seem to get it. Damn, I can't wait for my S, F and P after watching those videos. Something I did notice in that second video is they're using the fact the ankles tilt left and right farther than forward/back plus the legs being splayed to make an aggressive a stance instead of adjusting the ankles forward/back to get the same pose. It's not impossible to get something really aggressive you just can't do it with the legs straight forward/back. OK, yes, but it wouldn't exactly be "the same pose", though. I think I'm going to opt to get the 19S when it's released and hold off on the 17 until the D variant comes out. The D's head unit looks far better to me, anyway. I'm in a rut because I like both types but I know I cannot afford two of these. Actually, I doubt I can afford one, so my problem might be solved, depending on what mood I'm in.
Mommar Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 OK, yes, but it wouldn't exactly be "the same pose", though. What pose are you going for exactly? I tend to put my VF-1's in the deepest A stances and the only way to do that and get the look I like is by splaying the legs and adjusting the ankles in (as best I can considering how limited the range is on the VF-1's.) It seems like this would actually help me more than the ankles going forward or back. I don't have a Kai so I can't say for sure but it appears in that video they adjusted the legs/ankles in exactly the same manner I always have to get a deeper stance. And remember I'm Mr. Gerwalk, that's my favorite mode so I tend to play with that mode the most.
Reïvaj Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 What pose are you going for exactly? I tend to put my VF-1's in the deepest A stances and the only way to do that and get the look I like is by splaying the legs and adjusting the ankles in (as best I can considering how limited the range is on the VF-1's.) It seems like this would actually help me more than the ankles going forward or back. I don't have a Kai so I can't say for sure but it appears in that video they adjusted the legs/ankles in exactly the same manner I always have to get a deeper stance. And remember I'm Mr. Gerwalk, that's my favorite mode so I tend to play with that mode the most. I think you're right. This is my Kai and as you can see I barely bend the ankles backwards in gerwalk mode.
Ignacio Ocamica Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I think you're right. This is my Kai and as you can see I barely bend the ankles backwards in gerwalk mode. Great pose!! Back on topic, the VF-17 can't come soon enough!!!! Edited September 30, 2011 by Ignacio Ocamica
Uxi Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 Think I'm going to wait for the VF-17D but we'll see.
Mommar Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 I think you're right. This is my Kai and as you can see I barely bend the ankles backwards in gerwalk mode. It looks like from the angle of the ankles it's pretty sturdy in that pose even as low as the nose is. Is that the case? That looks just like any classic, deep A-stance I can think of for a 19 in Gerwalk. I'm not sure what the issue with the ankles are in that mode. I could see some fancier positions in Battroid being an issue however.
kamadoma Posted September 30, 2011 Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I think you're right. This is my Kai and as you can see I barely bend the ankles backwards in gerwalk mode. Is that pose achievable without pulling the whole feet shaft down, or will the angled feet be obstructed by the yellow ankle bands? If it's really required to pull the feet down, then that's probably why I couldn't give mine a good Gerwalk. I easily get turned off seeing those metal shafts down so I try to do Gerwalk poses without pulling them down. Back on topic, seeing that Yamato has been doing pretty well on their releases lately, I hope they do good on the 17 so I can get it early on even without waiting for a sale. I usually buy my VFs after seeing tons of reviews and during a sale, but I do love Macross 7 units and I don't mind getting them on full SRP, as long as they don't suddenly dismember themselves on their own. Edited September 30, 2011 by kamadoma
Reïvaj Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 Is that pose achievable without pulling the whole feet shaft down, or will the angled feet be obstructed by the yellow ankle bands? If it's really required to pull the feet down, then that's probably why I couldn't give mine a good Gerwalk. I easily get turned off seeing those metal shafts down so I try to do Gerwalk poses without pulling them down. [...] The feet are three clicks down in that pose. I pull them down the whole five clicks, pose the valk, angle the feet flat and then apply some pressure on the legs making them go down a couple of clicks –or as much as possible until the feet touch the yellow ankle bands. Try as much as possible to not to angle the feet forward or backwards; bend the legs instead.
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