DYRL VF-1 WIP

[VF5SS]

That artwork is from the This is Animation Special DYRL book.

[claude grant]

My goodness!! Looking at your stunning work is like taking both the red AND blue pill from the Matrix simultaneously; wouldn't know what to expect, but the results would probably be apex experiences in both worlds!

I sure hope you plan on giving this treatment to the other iconic sdfm tv/dyrl valk head units! Just superior work!!

Please keep this going Mr. Bickell, best humpday surprise ever!

[danbickell]

Those heads from the pachinko footage and Ultimate Frontier are interesting, especially the external latch mechanisms for the front chin panel. There's another aprocryphal drawing (don't know the source, it isn't any any of my books) that shows that panel as a radome for a radar array:

Of course, apocryphal details, no matter how interesting, are exactly what I'm trying to stay away from here. My goal is to include any and all details depicted in the DYRL original design work, and the original TV art where it isn't superceded by DYRL additions/changes. Ideally, any deviations would be limited to shape and proportion tweaks and mechanical issues with making it all "work" with the transformation.

Unfortunately, there is much about the design that requires anime magic to actually work in 3 dimensions. That's why all the toys and models vary so much in their shapes and proportions. Personally, I think the Yamato 1/60 V2 is about as good as it can get for a toy at that size. The proportions work really well for all modes. Where it falls short with shape problems is mostly just a compromise for the small size and trying to incorporate a "perfect" transformation and still have features like deployable landing gear.

That drawing of the VF-1S and VF-1A with the girls is from the DYRL This Is Animation book (page 81):

[Mr March]

Ah, thanks fellas. I'll have to see about getting myself a copy.

[EXO]

looks like a western diagram for role playing...

[danbickell]

looks like a western diagram for role playing...

Yeah, that's my guess as well. Maybe a Robotech roleplaying book?

Well, new page in the thread deserves new pics! Those first ones were hastily thrown together after a 10-hour stint of work to finish up the model. Here's a few new shots with a little lighting, and an angle of the top.

Here's a little illustation of how the separately angled gun turrets allow for straight guns in fighter but angle apart like all the drawings show it in battroid when the guns are angled up. It also shows how much perspective effects how the shape appears (the smaller renders are orthographic views):

Another thing I forgot to show off is how the neck rings "work" when the head looks up and down (separate pieces that can articulate):

LOOK INTO MY EYE!

Edited June 7, 2012 by danbickell

[Talos]

One moment, I'm going to need to get a mop to clean up all this drool. Totally epic!

[anime52k8]

having read the last couple pages of discussion, I think I like the TV head better personally. Good looking model though.

[danbickell]

having read the last couple pages of discussion, I think I like the TV head better personally. Good looking model though.

Thanks. I totally get it, and there seems to be a lot of people in that same camp of preferring the original TV designs. It certainly seems that quite a number of people at least prefer the TV SDF-1. In some ways, I tend to be a bit nostaligic about the TV designs as well. If Yamato were to make a 1/3000 TV Macross that was comparable to their DYRL Macross, I would certainly buy it up. I'm not sure that I would choose the TV if I could only have one or the other, though. It would be a tough call, for me.

They updated and detailed out the designs when they made DYRL for good reasons. They needed more mature designs, with a detail level suitable for the big screen. In a lot of ways, they overshot the mark, and the detail they added never even actually made it into the movie animation. The VF-1S head is a great example of this, since we never really get those close-ups that would show the detail. Other than a bit of the revised proportions and shape, it hardly looks much different from how it was drawn in the TV animation most of the time. I think that's why we don't really see the toys and model kits differentiating between the two. They all fall somewhere in the middle, picking and choosing which shape and which details to mash together.

Making a 3d model with a high level of detail presents the same sort of necessity for the higher detail level, which is a big part of why I chose to do the DYRL VF-1 in the first place. I still remember how much my mind was blown when I first got my gold book, as a teenager back in the mid 80s. That detail drawing of the VF-1S head just spoke to me, and helped to make the Macross mecha much closer to "real", much like the re-designed hands (that were a much more mechanically sound design).

I hope to eventually do the TV version as well, and ideally I would re-do as much of it as I can possibly justify.

It's a funny thing though, trying to compare all the original lineart, the re-designs, and what the animators actually drew in either the TV show or the movie. Nothing really matches the others all that well. For me, the original lineart is the most important, as it represents what Kawamori intended. Everything else is only an interpretation, much like my model.

Here's a little study I threw together, comparing my model placed with similar angles and perspective to the original TV lineart:

Of course, those drawings, as cool and iconic as they may be, are still just drawings. The shapes, angles, and perspective are never perfect, and a single 3d model can never really match up with them. That head-on angle on the bottom right, for example... you shouldn't be able to see the neck rings. They would have to be wider than the head, rather than a bridge between the smaller neck and the bigger head. But it looks cool!

To actually try to match a model to the TV lineart, it would have to be very soft and rounded. I've seen some models try to do this, and it works much better for lineart than it does for a 3d model of mecha, at least in my opinion.

The other thing I was experimenting with there was the smaller size, since on an image of the complete VF-1S, the head would actually take up a much smaller piece of the image. In theory, the small details should start to disappear as you get farther away, or in shadows, or with motion blur. The end result should look a step or two closer to the lineart depictions, as opposed to the big close-ups of just the head.

All this subjective stuff, clashing with mechanical design and realism... I guess that's why they call us artists, right?

[Mommar]

Does this mean both heads are done and you can start working out more of the body details? Ugh. I've been salivating over this thing for more than a year, you tease.

[UN Spacy]

You gotta love good head.

[danbickell]

Does this mean both heads are done and you can start working out more of the body details? Ugh. I've been salivating over this thing for more than a year, you tease.

Sorry to tease so much! I could just work in secret, and eventually just show up with the finished product, but I do enjoy going through it all slowly, piece by piece, and discussing it all.

Have no fear, though. I'm working out the head transformation parts and back of the nose/head cavity at the moment. Once that is worked out to my satisfaction, I can resume work on the chest and back. The upper torso is the trickiest part, because of the transformation. I really want to make as much of the transmormation mechanisms work right as possible.

The rest will be a piece of cake, and should go fairly quickly. Certain areas might take a little time to detail, but it is all pretty straight forward.

[Frogze]

It's amazing. Seeing how you pile up all references and then put it all there in your model is a supertreat

[Lonewolf]

IMHO this is by far the best 3D rendition of the VF-1 ever!

Cheer to you man and please keep it up.

[djw1214]

oh! my god please.keep to this.........so cool........I really like this one

please show your vf-1s head of 3d Line Chart for me .... .....

if you wish please show your Material for me ....The effect is so beautiful.............

[Mr March]

You gotta love good head.

Alright, that was a good laugh

[danbickell]

oh! my god please.keep to this.........so cool........I really like this one

please show your vf-1s head of 3d Line Chart for me .... .....

if you wish please show your Material for me ....The effect is so beautiful.............

Don't worry, it will certainly keep going. I've got a free day to work on it today too, so hopefully I'll have an update to show soon.

I think we have a bit of language barrier happening here. I'm not sure what you mean by "3d Line Chart"... There are a couple of wireframe renders of the VF-1S on the previous page in this thread, if that's what you mean. I would be happy to render out some more, if anybody wants them.

As far as the materials I'm using in 3ds Max, it is currently a multi/sub-object material with 17 Arch & Design Mental Ray materials to get all the different colors, shading, and reflection. For the wireframe renders, I use a copy of that multi/sub-object material with all 17 sub-materials replaced with a standard basic Max material with the same color as the corresponding material, using Blinn shader and with "Wire" checked under the Shader parameters.

Of course, these materials are only temporary. They are useful for visualizing the colors and seeing how the geometry shades, and I will use them as the base to bake down textures from once everything is built. That's where all the paint scheme, markings, and weathering will come in. I will likely add subtle normal map effects like waves and scratches in the metal, small rivets/panel fasteners, etc.

[Mommar]

This is already pretty much the most bad-ass VF-1 render we've ever seen here and it's not even textured yet!

[djw1214]

just like this.......i found this .. and I'm so sorry about my english... I need Hard to learn English T.T

Actually your vf-1 is the my favorite I've seen , so I always want to ask you some questions about this

I'm really thank you . Every time you respond message to me very seriously and help me how to made this material and I'm very looking forward to your work..

this is my vf-1 , i'm not good at 3d . I'm very like vf-1 when i was a child.

http://s362.photobucket.com/albums/oo68/danbickell/?action=view&current=nose_gear_anim_test4_6.mp4 it's so cool..

I really hope to see new game about macross on the ps3 or xbox360. not like ps3 Gekijouban macross F: Sayonara no Tsubasa it's not fun . I think that just want to sell a bd animie made this game .

Do you remember this just a ps2 game this one is my favorite...

[Mommar]

What about the upper torso transformation do you think makes it so tricky? Is it the fact you're trying to make everything as close to a real functioning machine as possible?

[Knight26]

Check this thread at foundation 3D forums.

http://www.foundation3d.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11903&page=5

Tan.J is making another very nioce transforming VF-1 model, but is going more the mid-poly route, it looks like it could go into a game nicely. He also has it rigged up pretty well and just posted a video of the transformation sequences. His biggest problem, he went with the Kawamori style paper thin joints at some points, he really should have beefed them up a little, the most notable place he did that was the knee joint.

As for the chest block I see why that is such a tricky part, getting the leg transformation pistons in there will not be easy, that is a lot of hardware to stuff into a very small space, so some comprimise may be needed.

[Zinjo]

Check this thread at foundation 3D forums.

http://www.foundatio...?t=11903&page=5

Tan.J is making another very nioce transforming VF-1 model, but is going more the mid-poly route, it looks like it could go into a game nicely. He also has it rigged up pretty well and just posted a video of the transformation sequences. His biggest problem, he went with the Kawamori style paper thin joints at some points, he really should have beefed them up a little, the most notable place he did that was the knee joint.

As for the chest block I see why that is such a tricky part, getting the leg transformation pistons in there will not be easy, that is a lot of hardware to stuff into a very small space, so some comprimise may be needed.

This TanJ isn't actually Jason Lewis is it?

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=16101&hl=

http://www.jasonlewisart.com/Home.html

The work looks very similar...

[Mommar]

That's a cool find. Very good model too. I still think our boy Dan here will have THE definitive proportions out of all the models we've seen so far though. As cool as the model that tan guy has been working on is I don't care for some of the proportions.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Mommar

[EXO]

This TanJ isn't actually Jason Lewis is it?

http://www.macrosswo...wtopic=16101=

http://www.jasonlewisart.com/Home.html

The work looks very similar...

Doesn't look the same to me... Different sense of proportions and different ways of going about the details.

[danbickell]

Yeah, that is not Jason, though I have looked at that guys work before. This TanJ guy is in Japan, where Jason lives up in Washington. He did some interesting things with the transformation mechanics, and got some great details in there. I have some of his images amongst my references already, and find it useful both for things I do and don't want to do with my model.

The trouble with the transformation mechanics of the chest block is mostly just space and clearance issues. I spent all day yesterday doing a new back of the nose/head cavity and head transformation mechanism. When working out the chest/back/LERX, I immediately started running into clearance issues with the original head transformation mechanism and head cavity at the back of the nose that I originally blocked-out. The head transformation parts needed the space for the air-brake, and there was no room in between for the heat shield to fit anywhere. I started over from scratch on those parts, and now I have something that not only works much better (puts the head in all the correct positions, with room for the air-brake and the heat shield), but looks quite close to the original line art and designs. I'm about 90% done on the detailing, so I should have an update to post soon.

The next tricks will be splitting up the LERX to pivot the legs down to the nose, and finding space for the piston actuators to do that. I'm also trying my best to to have the top of the battroid chest block be as filled-in and detail-correct as possible, which has it's own problems. I don't want to cheat things like TanJ did, with holes for the shoulder lights with retractable covers. I have another idea for that, but it complicates things and requires taking up more space. I don't want to do things like move the shoulder-top verniers to another position that makes things easier. Ideally, I'd like to do the battroid side covers as well, though I'm really not sure where those are going to fit.

Yeah, the rest of the VF-1 will be a piece of cake!

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the support! I'll be back soon with some updates...

[danbickell]

Ok, so the nose section is finally complete, after all this time, with the head transformation mechanism. There is very little lineart reference for what this area looks like, so I did the best I could to incorporate the available details and make it all work at the same time.

These are the primary references used:

Of course, this is a VF-1D, so the proportions don't quite work for the other VF-1 models. Also, that block sticking out doesn't work (or make sense) at all, even for the VF-1D. I think it was just a device thrown together for that one scene in the TV show, so I ignored it and replaced it with a transformation mechanism to move the heads around where they need to go. The head cavity itself has tricky clearance issues, barely clearing the landing gear bay and cockpit tub, with just enough space for either head (properly tucked in).

The other major reference is this one again:

As much as I love this drawing, it does have some problems, mostly to do with the seat raising battroid egress (which I grow even more confident that it won't ever work without seriously compromising the design), and the scale of the head (too small here, especially given the perspective). I borrowed as much detail as I could for the head base platform, re-arranged a bit for clearance issues (inside the chest, directly underneath the air-brake in fighter).

So, here are the results:

The transformation mechanism is most similar to the Yamato 1/60 V2 setup, but with the one pivot offset (puts the base platform lower adding clearance for the heat shield and air-brake under the chest) and a sliding mechanism added (the longer A head needs different positioning in fighter). You might notice that this also fixes the problem with the heads sitting a bit too far to the rear in battroid on the Yamato.

Perspective makes the heads look a little big in these shots, but they are matched up nicely with both the Hasegawa 1/48 plans and the Yamato 1/60 V2s. This shot shows it better (but you have to use your imagination for the rest of the battroids, of course):

I also did a little re-work on the rest of the nose, to bring it up to current specs. The panel line cross-sections and materials have been matched up to the style I used for the S head, and I added a couple of little details that have been bugging me:

I'm excited to finally be able to move back to the chest block. There's some exciting DYRL-specific stuff there (exciting to me, anyway) that I haven't seen others do yet, and I've had a bit of an epiphany about how I'm going to go about the LERX and their part in the leg transformation mechanism, and it actually comes from my all-time favorite of the DYRL detail drawings. Fun times ahead!

Edited June 15, 2012 by danbickell

[djw1214]

really cool, I'm very Love the detail work on it and looking forward to see your transformation anime,

and like Yamato too..

[frothymug]

Any plans on being able to rotate the cockpit in battroid mode?

[neoexcaliber]

Damnit Dan. One day I'm gonna fly over and eat your brains!

Really stunning work.

[danbickell]

Any plans on being able to rotate the cockpit in battroid mode?

This was discussed in more detail earlier in the thread, but I don't plan on trying to make a tranformable cockpit. I absolutely love the DYRL battroid cockpit, but there's just too much "anime magic" involved to make it actually work in 3d.

The seat is built so the headrest can pivot into battroid position, and it wouldn't be much trouble to add the mechanisms to raise the armrests and controls to the battroid position. The problems are all the battroid screens (with additional controls attached to them) that come out of nowhere to surround the seat. The box behind the seat and the front console would have to be re-designed to make them open up and have that stuff come out and somehow be able to maneuver into position. I'd rather have a fighter cockpit that is accurate to all the designs vs. a fan-designed cockpit compromised for the transformation.

What I probably will do is just make a separate battroid cockpit, accurate to the detailed DYRL designs, that can be switched out with the fighter cockpit. I'd rather forget about showing an impossible transformation, and just have individually accurate fighter and battroid cockpits.

Damnit Dan. One day I'm gonna fly over and eat your brains!

Really stunning work.

Thanks!

[TehPW]

ok... if anyone is looking for me, ill be in the bathroom.... i need to relieve... myself after looking at all this crazy, lovely art efforts...

[Lonewolf]

ok... if anyone is looking for me, ill be in the bathroom.... i need to relieve... myself after looking at all this crazy, lovely art efforts...

Same here, again this WIP is pure delight everytime it's updated with pic and details.

[EXO]

This is so awesome. I have all the lineart, toys and animation but I've always just cheated the detail around the neck. I think this will solidify the way I draw a VF-1. I can't wait to see if you can pull off the battroid side covers.

At first I thought seeing the cockpit rotate to battroid was a bit too much but seeing you figuring out the problems and making sense out of things, while keeping keeping it aesthetically accurate is really enjoyable. It would have been fun to see the cockpit transform and even see the seat rise out of the egress. You opened up a can of worms of what we'd love to see. But I say just finish what you have planned. It's really a weird form of entertainment where we're all holding out breaths for the next installment.

Another weird sensation, I don't know if anyone else would agree is that there's the obsessive Macross fan part of me that would want to own this. It's crazy, I know it's all digital and it's not a physical object that you can wrap your arms around but it's so beautiful that I'm ready to swipe my CC on the screen. lol. If Hasegawa made a 1/32 version based on this, it would be so bought.

[danbickell]

Thanks!

At first I thought seeing the cockpit rotate to battroid was a bit too much but seeing you figuring out the problems and making sense out of things, while keeping keeping it aesthetically accurate is really enjoyable. It would have been fun to see the cockpit transform and even see the seat rise out of the egress. You opened up a can of worms of what we'd love to see. But I say just finish what you have planned. It's really a weird form of entertainment where we're all holding out breaths for the next installment.

Believe me, I'm in the same boat as much as any of us. I would LOVE to make that work somehow, and it pains me as I get deeper into the model to see the feasibility of it lessen. It could be made to work, but the compromises to the design as we know it pile up to the point where it wouldn't be worth it. Things like the back of the nose/head cavity/neck surface are ambiguous enough in the designs (or lacking altogether) that I could get away with pushing the details and proportions around to work. The cockpit (especially in fighter) have been covered so well in the designs that those details are much more "set in stone", and I would see it as the bigger failure to compromise any of that.

Here's a couple of images I just tossed together to help illustrate the issues involved:

As you can see here, the space is packed full. There is barely any clearance anywhere.

I color-coded the parts so we can see what's going on. Blue is the cockpit tub, the landing gear bay is green, and the head cavity is red.

That box behind the seat is what would have to magically come apart and become the battroid screens and controls that surround the seat in battroid mode (despite NONE of the details matching anything shown in the battroid cockpit designs). Let's say we go ahead and compromise that. Now, for the seat egress, there needs to be a hole in the cockipt tub (covered up by the box) for the seat (and the pilot, and the armrests!) to move through. As you can see, there's not remotely enough space, even for just the seat. You can also see that there's no straight path for it either. It isn't like it can just go straight up (up in battroid). It would have to go through the landing gear bay (which is why they did that weird thing in the VF-1 Master Files). Even if the landing gear bay magically got out of the way, we now need to squeeze the seat (+ pilot and armrests) through that head cavity. The outer opening is barely big enough, but it is much too small on the inside where there would have to be some opening for the seat to come through.

Then we start to consider the smaller details... The armrests are a great example here. The fighter cockpit designs show the armrests as part of the cockpit tub, with mechanisms underneath to raise and angle them up with the seat in battroid. The seat designs also show the seat as being separate from the armrests. Then, in the seat egress drawing, we see the armrests somehow go up and out with the seat. This is why the VF-1 Master File redesigned the seat with the armrests attached to the seat, and that design looks kinda cool, but it isn't the seat that Kawamori designed anymore, and it compromises the whole fighter cockpit that was originally designed as well.

That whole VF-1 Master File battroid cockpit transformation scheme, illustrates just how impossible the whole idea is. They had to redesign everything, and go as far as moving the entire landing gear bay outside of the nose in battroid to make it kinda work. I'm happy to see that they explored the idea and came up with solutions, but it also just shows me how much compromise is needed, and that destroys the whole design for me.

Another weird sensation, I don't know if anyone else would agree is that there's the obsessive Macross fan part of me that would want to own this. It's crazy, I know it's all digital and it's not a physical object that you can wrap your arms around but it's so beautiful that I'm ready to swipe my CC on the screen. lol. If Hasegawa made a 1/32 version based on this, it would be so bought.

Nothing weird about that! I've spent hundreds of hours on this, and I feel the same way all the time. I can manipulate the model on my dual 24" monitors all day, but I can't hold it in my hands!

It makes me really wish I had some experience with 3d printing, and I've built the majority of it with that in mind, spending a lot of extra time to create "water-tight" geometry, neatly quadrangulate and triangulate everything, and at least planning for stuff like back-faces for hollow and separate parts. I know there were a lot of limitations like that in the past at least, but I'm not even sure what the limitations are these days. In any event, it wouldn't be that much trouble to boolean in the details that are currently separate in some areas, if needed. I would LOVE to eventually get a physical model out of this.

I believe we live just a couple of blocks from each other, too. We should totally collaborate on something like that, if you're interested.

[Talos]

That looks stunning, Dan. Really top-notch work!