The computer and electronics super geek thread

[azrael]

23 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

Also something to keep in mind: AMD announced that they would be starting production on 3D-stacked chips in Q4 2021 - so release probably in Q1/Q2 2022. Whether that means 3D-stacked Zen 4 or "Zen 3+" is unknown. However, the prototype "5900X with 3D-stacked cache" showed off at Computex just a few weeks ago demonstrated about +10-15% performance boost over the stock 5900X, so it might be worth waiting for that to come out as well.

I don't expect the stacked Zen 3 CPUs to be supported on the oldest chipsets (just like normal Zen 3 CPUs). If he's using an older chipset, he'll be SOL.

[technoblue]

37 minutes ago, kajnrig said:

If you don't absolutely need PCI-E 4.0, it honestly isn't that much of an issue sticking with the board you have (assuming it supports newer Ryzen generations). From what I can tell, devices taking advantage of 4.0 bandwidth are still few and far between, and those that do (mainly NVMe SSDs) do so spottily.

Yeah. PCIe 4.0 is really only worth it if you have a system where you need to run multiple NVMe drives at top performance or you're somehow able to pick up one of those fancy new GPUs that don't exist for normal users. 

[David Hingtgen]

6 hours ago, kajnrig said:

This is incredibly sketch, but you might be able to scrape off some PCB material to reveal good bare copper right next to those burned pins and solder some wires to facilitate a connection there.

Do I recommend it? Heck no.  Literally any other action would be preferable, including just having a data recovery team swap the platters to an identical drive.

But regardless, good luck.

I *was* thinking of soldering something like that....   But going to try drive as-is once I have a PC to do so on, first.  

[David Hingtgen]

Got new PSU, tried it tonight---same symptoms.  Starts for a split second, shuts down, then cycles like that.  

Almost everything disconnected, it's little more than mobo, CPU, and cooler at this point.   Swapped fans around JUST in case it was an odd "CPU fan not detected" type of failure, no difference.  

So pretty much has to be CPU or mobo at this point?  And I think mobo failures are way more common than CPU failures.   (CPU never overclocked, this one's not even an unlocked version). 

[mikeszekely]

25 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

So pretty much has to be CPU or mobo at this point?

Yeah, if it's not the PSU or RAM then you can be 90% sure it's the board.  The only thing you can't really know anymore (unless you have a PSU tester) is whether the board was your original issue or if problems with the old PSU caused the issues with the board.

[David Hingtgen]

I tried several RAM sticks in several slots, breadboarded outside the case---same.  (I didn't try EVERY possible combo, but enough that I'm sure I don't have RAM stick or RAM slot issues)

My main goal was to eliminate the case itself as an issue. 

[technoblue]

16 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

I tried several RAM sticks in several slots, breadboarded outside the case---same.  (I didn't try EVERY possible combo, but enough that I'm sure I don't have RAM stick or RAM slot issues)

My main goal was to eliminate the case itself as an issue. 

Try with just the motherboard, CPU, and PSU if you haven't already. Do not connect anything else (including the RAM). The computer will not complete its POST in this configuration, but it should send an audible 'no memory' beep code. If you don't hear this and instead you see the same power on/off cycle issue, then I think it's safe to say that you've narrowed it down to a motherboard or CPU issue since the PSU is already a working replacement.  

[azrael]

Windows 11 minimum required spec.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

Also hidden in the support docs is you'll need a 8th-gen Intel Core or later or 2nd gen AMD Ryzen or later CPU.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

🙄

[mikeszekely]

7 hours ago, azrael said:

Windows 11 minimum required spec.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

Also hidden in the support docs is you'll need a 8th-gen Intel Core or later or 2nd gen AMD Ryzen or later CPU.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

🙄

Guess I'm glad I updated my computers last year, then.  I went from a 3rd-gen i7 to a 9th-gen, and I replaced my laptop (5th or 6th-gen i7, I think) with a Ryzen 9.

[hachi]

10 hours ago, azrael said:

Windows 11 minimum required spec.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

Also hidden in the support docs is you'll need a 8th-gen Intel Core or later or 2nd gen AMD Ryzen or later CPU.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

🙄

yay my new laptop's CPU is supported.

[azrael]

7 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Guess I'm glad I updated my computers last year, then.  I went from a 3rd-gen i7 to a 9th-gen, and I replaced my laptop (5th or 6th-gen i7, I think) with a Ryzen 9.

Unfortunately my upgrade to Ryzen got delayed last year due to the parts shortages and any hopes of re-using my 8th-gen i7 to replace my 4th-gen Intel WFH box are diminishing due to the lack of and reasonably priced parts. Even with parts coming back in stock, sourcing parts for older platforms really doesn't seem like a viable.  

[mikeszekely]

13 minutes ago, azrael said:

Unfortunately my upgrade to Ryzen got delayed last year due to the parts shortages and any hopes of re-using my 8th-gen i7 to replace my 4th-gen Intel WFH box are diminishing due to the lack of and reasonably priced parts. Even with parts coming back in stock, sourcing parts for older platforms really doesn't seem like a viable.  

Between the impressive performance on the newer Ryzens and the difficulty sourcing any individual parts at reasonable it is, and I never though I'd be saying this, pretty much better to buy a whole new pre-built computer.

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

Unfortunately my upgrade to Ryzen got delayed last year due to the parts shortages and any hopes of re-using my 8th-gen i7 to replace my 4th-gen Intel WFH box are diminishing due to the lack of and reasonably priced parts. Even with parts coming back in stock, sourcing parts for older platforms really doesn't seem like a viable.  

I was able to move my HTPC to a Ryzen 5 3600 processor before everything went insane last year. But trying to upgrade my main system to a Ryzen 5000 series CPU was a struggle after those went on sale. The upside is that I've been able to slowly source parts here and there since the beginning of the new year. It's a completely different climate for DIY, that's for sure.

The one thing that's alluding me now is the GPU upgrade. No matter nVidia or AMD, finding a video card today is like finding a unicorn or bigfoot in real life (not happening or mere rumor). I guess I'll move on with whomever is able to get decent stock out to normal users first. Until then, I'm okay with my 1000 series GTX GPUs. They aren't the greatest match to Ryzen for ultra quality gaming but they do get the job done at certain resolutions.

[azrael]

20 hours ago, azrael said:

Windows 11 minimum required spec.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications

Also hidden in the support docs is you'll need a 8th-gen Intel Core or later or 2nd gen AMD Ryzen or later CPU.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-intel-processors
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-11-supported-amd-processors

🙄

On top of this is the other news about Windows 11.

Android apps on Windows. Via the Microsoft store. Via the Amazon App store. Running over Intel Bridge. Impressive but it's basically running Android apps over an application emulator layer(?) and you need both a MS app store and Amazon app store account. 🤦‍♂️

Teams integration. So, I see Skype was a dead end. While mileage may vary, my experience with Teams has been OK to Problem-prone. I've had more issues with Teams vs Zoom.

Start menu: I see they're revisiting the whole touch-thing again. Did Windows 8 not teach 'em anything? Probably good for touch but my use-case for Windows will remain keyboard-&-mouse cursor for the foreseeable future.

HDR-support: Meh. I care more for display scaling though. That's been a sore spot for Windows.

TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot requirement: I feel a headache coming when people attempt to reinstall and those options are disabled in the BIOS (or lack the TPM 2.0 module).

[technoblue]

Some more thoughts on Windows 11:

The Home and Home S editions now require a Microsoft account and an Internet connection to complete setup on first use. There's no mention if this requirement also applies to Windows 11 Pro. Curiously, the Pro S edition is deprecated for Windows 11.

Internet Explorer is finally deprecated for Windows 11. Tissues are available out in the hall.

Speaking of the Start Menu, I'm not sure I like that Microsoft is removing the resize feature. I don't know what to think about them removing groups and folders. I couldn't care less about the live tiles moving over to widgets.

The whole thing about the rounded corners is silly. We had default rounded corners and transparent windows in Windows 7 and Vista. The square look was introduced with Window 8 and now Microsoft wants to go round again. Yay?💫 I don't mind the shapes as long as things work. I do like the promise of improved multi-monitor support as well as docked systems. Windows 10 has a tendency to act strange in certain instances using such configurations.

[azrael]

26 minutes ago, technoblue said:

Speaking of the Start Menu, I'm not sure I like that Microsoft is removing the resize feature. I don't know what to think about them removing groups and folders. I couldn't care less about the live tiles moving over to widgets.

Re: Start menu. It's also stuck to the bottom of the screen too with the Task bar. I know a few people who will be annoyed.

[technoblue]

2 hours ago, azrael said:

Re: Start menu. It's also stuck to the bottom of the screen too with the Task bar. I know a few people who will be annoyed.

Yeah. Who is this helping, again? It seems like removing those location options has the potential of turning more people off.

Hopefully, MS is retaining the option to hide the Windows 11 taskbar in desktop mode.  

[David Hingtgen]

If anyone has an ancient GPU, and wants to upgrade (but not yet to a $$$ 2000 or 3000 series), both my 960 and 970 are available...

(I'm glad I bought a 1080 when I did---I thought they were expensive and hard to get just a couple years ago, but it's nothing compared to trying to get a 2070 or 3070 lately)

[azrael]

2 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

If anyone has an ancient GPU, and wants to upgrade (but not yet to a $$$ 2000 or 3000 series), both my 960 and 970 are available...

(I'm glad I bought a 1080 when I did---I thought they were expensive and hard to get just a couple years ago, but it's nothing compared to trying to get a 2070 or 3070 lately)

It's worth noting those of you still using and holding onto those 600-series and 700-series cards, NVidia is cutting you off in the next few months. 900 and 1000-series cards also only have a couple of years of life support left. I'm sure they would end it sooner but you know...

[mikeszekely]

Is there really that many people who don't have their taskbar on the bottom (I guess having it on the left looks a little like Ubuntu)?  MS locking it to the bottom doesn't really affect me.  Not sure how I feel about them moving the Start Menu and icons to the middle, though.  It makes some sense, especially for high resolutions and/or ultra-wide monitors, not just touchscreens.  Fortunately, those you can move back to the left side of the taskbar if you like.

As for the new Start Menu, after the debacle that was Windows 8 my initial reaction is fear and rage, but when I calm down I think it's actually fine.  You pin your most-used apps at the top instead of the right, with icons instead of tiles- assuming you haven't already pinned them to the taskbar.  And for the stuff you use less often, well, how many of you still scroll through the list of all programs vs typing name and having it quickly come up in search?

Toss in the return of something like Aero glass, so we can move on from a decade of "flat" design, and gaming features like better Xbox integration and DirectStorage and AutoHDR (Az might be cool on it, but I have a 4K HDR10 display and games that support HDR look noticeably better with it, so...), and I'm cautiously looking forward to Windows 11.

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

Is there really that many people who don't have their taskbar on the bottom (I guess having it on the left looks a little like Ubuntu)?

Most likely.

I mean, set Linux aside for the moment, there’s an opinion piece over on howtogeek that gets into why having the taskbar on the side is better for widescreen monitors in general—a rather interesting take. As far as MS removing the option goes, it’s odd because it has been there since Windows 95 days. And even though I didn't use it all too often, I appreciated that the flexibility was built in.

Thankfully, I’m sure users who still really want to move the taskbar around the edge of the display will continue to have options. It’s just unfortunate that something that was part of the OS for so long will now need a third-party utility to work.

[azrael]

I really don’t care about leaving the taskbar at the bottom only. I never moved my taskbar. Concerning the screen real estate issue for the taskbar, I’ve always been a advocate for the 16:10 aspect ratio. How anyone can work on a 1080p/16:9 aspect is perplexing (mainly laptop screens. Desktop can use 1440p or a 4k, negating the squished 1080p screen). 

[JB0]

I always liked the taskbar on the side, but it was always clear I was a second-class citizen when I did it. I finally gave up on it, and I suspect at this point MS is mostly concerned about people accidentally moving their taskbar and freaking out.

[levzloi]

Really want to mess with your co-workers?  screen shot their desktop, move all folders and files off the desktop to somewhere else safe, then set the screen shot as the wallpaper, move the taskbar to the top and set it to autohide.  I think that was the only thing moving the taskbar was really good for. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by levzloi

[hachi]

23 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Is there really that many people who don't have their taskbar on the bottom (I guess having it on the left looks a little like Ubuntu)?  MS locking it to the bottom doesn't really affect me.  Not sure how I feel about them moving the Start Menu and icons to the middle, though.  It makes some sense, especially for high resolutions and/or ultra-wide monitors, not just touchscreens.  Fortunately, those you can move back to the left side of the taskbar if you like.

As for the new Start Menu, after the debacle that was Windows 8 my initial reaction is fear and rage, but when I calm down I think it's actually fine.  You pin your most-used apps at the top instead of the right, with icons instead of tiles- assuming you haven't already pinned them to the taskbar.  And for the stuff you use less often, well, how many of you still scroll through the list of all programs vs typing name and having it quickly come up in search?

Toss in the return of something like Aero glass, so we can move on from a decade of "flat" design, and gaming features like better Xbox integration and DirectStorage and AutoHDR (Az might be cool on it, but I have a 4K HDR10 display and games that support HDR look noticeably better with it, so...), and I'm cautiously looking forward to Windows 11.

My taskbar is at the top, I found it was less strain on my hand than moving the mouse a lot to the bottom (having pain issues due to mouse overuse). When I'm on linux the taskbar is also at the top, then I have the launchers on the bottom. In Win11 having this taskbar glued to the bottom is like having the designer say you are stupid as a user and only their opinion/design is the best.

[mikeszekely]

34 minutes ago, hachi said:

My taskbar is at the top, I found it was less strain on my hand than moving the mouse a lot to the bottom (having pain issues due to mouse overuse). When I'm on linux the taskbar is also at the top, then I have the launchers on the bottom. In Win11 having this taskbar glued to the bottom is like having the designer say you are stupid as a user and only their opinion/design is the best.

To be clear, I'm not advocating the elimination of choice, nor do I mean to criticize anyone who does move the taskbar.  I guess I'm just surprised by how many people are actually saying they do it.  I used to work in computer setup and repair, and in four years of doing it I don't think I ever worked on a PC that had the taskbar moved, nor did I have any requests to move it during setup.  I know it's all anecdotal, but I must have worked on close to a thousand computers during that time.

[Sanity is Optional]

I suspect that in general people who have moved their taskbar are also more likely to be somewhat computer literate, and thus less likely to interface with computer setup/repair personnel.

[David Hingtgen]

I plan to get a 970 Evo M.2 as main boot SSD (doesn't really need replacing, but the old one is small and running out of room)----my real question is for main storage drive----do SSD's do much better than mechanical, when it comes to viewing/listing drive contents? (not writing/reading to the files) As in----my main "irritation" is that currently, folders with lots of files in them, take a long time to "load up" when viewing in some programs----I know it's partly the program's fault as some are much faster, but I can tell all programs slowdown somewhat as the folders they're browsing/working in get into the "thousands of files in it" situation.  

Specific example---I'm working on a file----time to save!  So when the program asks me where to save/name it----I browse on over to "the big folder with tons of stuff"----and it takes FOREVER to pull up that folder in the program because there's a zillion files on it already and it's going to quick check/list every one before it'll actually let me save (so that it can give its little "same filename" warning, as well as make bad suggestions for new file name based on what's already in the folder)  To the point that sometimes I don't save as often as I should because of how long it takes.   

In short---would a 1TB SSD help with that, or should I save my money and just keep using cheap mechanical drives for storage?

[technoblue]

2 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

In short---would a 1TB SSD help with that, or should I save my money and just keep using cheap mechanical drives for storage?

The short answer is yes. 

NVMe drives have improved access times as you are already aware. The “load up” lag that you are noticing on your mechanical SATA drive is a result of its slower read access. I dare say you will notice a significant improvement compared to your mechanical drive. 

Also, a less expensive way to get improved SSD performance without paying for NVMe is to look at SATA SSD drives. They are slower than their NVMe counterparts due to the different connection type but still noticeably faster than any mechanical drive.

However, it’s worth noting that SSDs of any sort can get slightly reduced performance as they fill up (like any drive old or new) so it’s a good practice not to run them at 100% capacity if you are looking to sustain performance. It’s nothing like the lag of a mechanical drive but it’s worth putting out there. The common recommendation I’ve seen is to aim for 80%. To fill an SSD above that could be asking for issues.

Edit: Another alternative, if you want to continue to use large mechanical drives for storage, is to set up a smaller SSD as an SSD cache for that drive. That could also save money, especially if you are not ready to let go of the mechanical bits and bobs.

Edited June 27, 2021 by technoblue

[kajnrig]

Another thing to consider is the presence or lack thereof of a DRAM cache. Cacheless SSDs tend to be cheaper, but they also exhibit worse performance - especially when it comes to writing many small files to SSD - than cached SSDs. The performance in general isn't significantly worse, but in the aforementioned scenario, I had one drive slow down to basically HDD speeds.

Now, that was a years-old drive, and from what I'm reading, modern cacheless SSDs seem to have gotten around that issue. Still, it's something to think about.

NVMe drives can also get pretty hot and throttle, but that's only if you're really hammering the crap out of the drive. I've never experienced throttling on any of my devices that see "regular user" levels of abuse. Still, some drives come with heatsinks, some motherboards include their own heatsinks, and you can also get aftermarket heatsinks for cheap.

[azrael]

Mechanical drives don't make much sense now until you hit the larger capacities (>1 TB. 2TB SSDs are fine if you find them on sale, otherwise, borderline questionable worth). My only worry about the larger SSDs is when they mysteriously die. When SSDs die, they die. HDDs usually suffer a slow death and are normally easier to recover than a SSD if it comes to that (You can use some tricks at home on HDDs to recover data. SSDs require soldering for starters.)

[David Hingtgen]

New boot will be Nvme M.2.  New storage will likely be cheapest Samsung 2.5" I can find.   

[hachi]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:45 AM, mikeszekely said:

To be clear, I'm not advocating the elimination of choice, nor do I mean to criticize anyone who does move the taskbar.  I guess I'm just surprised by how many people are actually saying they do it.  I used to work in computer setup and repair, and in four years of doing it I don't think I ever worked on a PC that had the taskbar moved, nor did I have any requests to move it during setup.  I know it's all anecdotal, but I must have worked on close to a thousand computers during that time.

Perhaps they didn't know it can be moved. I worked for some time not knowing that the taskbar can be moved. And when I finally saw a taskbar not on the bottom I thought it was weird, why would someone do that? And then I found a reason for me to do it...

My beef is with those 'designers' who introduce changes and make things worse. The trend these days is the UI getting dumbed down, at least give us more 'advanced' users the option to configure it to our liking. Sadly even that is being slowly taken away. For most of my needs Linux is great. However there are some commercial programs you just can't have on it.

[David Hingtgen]

Expecting new RAM and CPU today, to breadboard repaired system.  AMD/GPU question:

Assuming Ryzen 3600, and B450 mobo----do I need to attach GPU just for basic BIOS/boot tests?  Does it have NO ability to output ANYTHING to the monitor direct from mobo like most Intel ones?   (mobo does have an HDMI port, but it says it only works if you're using a CPU w/integrated graphics----whereas my old Intel stuff can at least do 640x480 "raw", which is sufficient for testing)

[technoblue]

52 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

Expecting new RAM and CPU today, to breadboard repaired system.  AMD/GPU question:

Assuming Ryzen 3600, and B450 mobo----do I need to attach GPU just for basic BIOS/boot tests?  Does it have NO ability to output ANYTHING to the monitor direct from mobo like most Intel ones?   (mobo does have an HDMI port, but it says it only works if you're using a CPU w/integrated graphics----whereas my old Intel stuff can at least do 640x480 "raw", which is sufficient for testing)

Yes, you will need a dedicated graphics card (even something basic) with the Ryzen 3600. Ryzen APUs with integrated graphics all have a ‘G’ or ‘GE’ suffix.

Edited June 30, 2021 by technoblue