The computer and electronics super geek thread

[kajnrig]

Thought you guys might like this somewhat unorthodox video:

 

[David Hingtgen]

Is Newegg just absolutely worthless now?  It seems worse than last time I checked, and that was "a good notch down from the time before".  

Suggestions/alternatives?  Looking for "mobo/RAM/CPU combos", for an upgrade.  (it'll basically be a new tower, but I'm reusing GPU, and maybe PSU)

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, David Hingtgen said:

Is Newegg just absolutely worthless now?  It seems worse than last time I checked, and that was "a good notch down from the time before".  

Suggestions/alternatives?  Looking for "mobo/RAM/CPU combos", for an upgrade.  (it'll basically be a new tower, but I'm reusing GPU, and maybe PSU)

Yeah. Newegg was sold in 2016, and hasn't really been the same since.

These days I use either amazon.com or bhphotovideo.com. There are still some small online boutique shops around too, but the prices tend to be higher at those places.

[mikeszekely]

3 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Is Newegg just absolutely worthless now?  It seems worse than last time I checked, and that was "a good notch down from the time before".  

Suggestions/alternatives?  Looking for "mobo/RAM/CPU combos", for an upgrade.  (it'll basically be a new tower, but I'm reusing GPU, and maybe PSU)

Not sure. It's been a long time since I shopped seriously for computer parts, and even then I wound up buying some of them from Amazon because their return policy was better.

[David Hingtgen]

I've gotten "used stuff sold as new" PC parts multiple times from Amazon, so I'm VERY wary of shopping for any high-value components from there now. My guess is that BECAUSE of their return policy, they get a lot of stuff back, don't check it, and just put it back on the shelf.    

[azrael]

I know I've bought a few bits and pieces from them but as for anything serious? Nah. Pricing and returns are better on Amazon. Or I shop on B&H or I'm lucky enough go to a local shop.

[technoblue]

I would also recommend Fry's Electronics and Micro Center. You can order from both stores online if there isn't a physical brick & mortar location out your way.

[mikeszekely]

Anyone know anything about video editing?

Without going into a ton of detail this is a field I'm looking to get into, but I've got a few decisions to make.  Some quick background, while I've dabbled in Macs and Linux and a PC gamer and Windows man at heart.  My current PC sports a 3rd-gen Core i7-3770K, 16GB of RAM, and a GeForce 970GTX.  And no matter what I do, I'll probably end up building a new gaming rig in the next year or two, and that'll surely have enough power to do whatever editing I want.  If I got the Windows route, though, it looks like the tool of choice is Adobe Premiere Pro.

While Premier Pro seems capable enough, a casual survey seems to indicate that Macs are the tool of choice, and my wife and I are considering the 27" iMac.  This is a steeper investment, but I do like the idea of keeping work and gaming separate.  And while the tool of choice on Macs is Final Cut Pro X, it sounds like the free iMovie software is fairly capable in its own right and a good way to get my feet wet before transitioning into Final Cut Pro X.  The real question is whether or not I can get my wife on board with the $1800 price tag.

Thoughts?  (I mean, besides advice to buy it with the base RAM configuration and upgrade it myself, because Apple is crazy if they think I'm going to pay $180 to go from 8GB to 16.)

[jenius]

I use premiere on a PC and love it.

[azrael]

48 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

Anyone know anything about video editing?

Without going into a ton of detail this is a field I'm looking to get into, but I've got a few decisions to make.  ..

Nope. But I'm fairly sure the line between Premiere vs Final Cut Pro is cut right down the middle. Although, I've heard Adobe has finally decided to spend some time and optimized Premiere to actually run decently on a Mac.

I'm gonna say your desired platform is going to dictate Premiere vs Final Cut. Whatever you spec for a Mac, you could likely get cheaper sourcing the parts for a Windows box. So there's no help there. Next comes monitor. I'd recommend an IPS display if you don't have one, the better color gamut, the better, but that would be a longer term investment.

There is another option and that is go with a laptop instead of a desktop.

Personally, I use a Windows desktop and a Mac laptop. The Mac laptop is both a personal and professional choice. It was my introduction to Mac and over time a professional choice. When your friends in the same field and colleagues are a majority Mac laptop users, resistance is futile.

[TangledThorns]

On 9/30/2019 at 11:38 AM, technoblue said:

I would also recommend Fry's Electronics and Micro Center. You can order from both stores online if there isn't a physical brick & mortar location out your way.

There is a Microcenter about 40 minutes from my house. It's great for immediate returns. Had to do that when a Acer g-sync monitor I bought had several dead pixels and the box is huge.

[mikeszekely]

I reached out to a handful Youtubers I watch, and was honestly surprised at the range of answers I got. Only two said they're currently using a Mac (although both that did use Final Cut).  One used to use a Mac and Final Cut, but when it died he switched to PC and and Premiere Pro.  Three of the other gentlemen that said they use PCs answered with three different, non-Premiere software solutions.  And one told me he shoots and edits everything on his iPhone with iMovie.

18 hours ago, azrael said:

Personally, I use a Windows desktop and a Mac laptop. The Mac laptop is both a personal and professional choice. It was my introduction to Mac and over time a professional choice. When your friends in the same field and colleagues are a majority Mac laptop users, resistance is futile.

Yeah, I used to work in IT so I liked to stay fresh and at least reasonably know what I was doing regardless of OS.  I've had at least one Windows desktop since the Windows 95 days, I've occasionally owned a Windows laptop, I'd keep an older laptop or desktop lying around to test Linux distros, and I've owned one of the old blue-and-clear iMacs, one of the early Intel MacBooks, and two Mac minis.  So I'm really platform agnostic, I was just looking to get some opinions on whether one platform is better than the other for this one specific task.  And it seems like the answer is "not really."

18 hours ago, azrael said:

There is another option and that is go with a laptop instead of a desktop.

I've owned laptops for various reasons over the years.  I still have an old Dell with Linux Mint on it, and a Razer Blade I got a few years ago to bring with me when I had to stay in Shenzhen for six weeks.  While they definitely have their uses, I really prefer to work with a full-sized keyboard, a mouse, and a big monitor (my current monitor is 27").

19 hours ago, azrael said:

I'm gonna say your desired platform is going to dictate Premiere vs Final Cut. Whatever you spec for a Mac, you could likely get cheaper sourcing the parts for a Windows box. So there's no help there. Next comes monitor. I'd recommend an IPS display if you don't have one, the better color gamut, the better, but that would be a longer term investment.

If I go Mac, I'm pretty much settled on the 27" iMac.  But if I go the Mac route, I can pretty safely say I'd just use it for video editing and some web browsing.  I don't mind dropping two grand a computer just for this, if I felt that computer was definitely the best option for it.  But like I said, my gaming PC is getting a little old, and I'm going to want to upgrade that in the near future, too.  While my wife has been almost uncharacteristically supportive of me buying a computer and getting into video editing I'd be pushing it if I tried to talk her into a new gaming PC and an iMac.  I could go with the iMac and put off upgrading the PC for awhile longer, but considering how many people are telling me they use PCs for the video editing I'm starting to think I'd be better off investing in a PC that can do both.

If I go Mac, I'll be using whatever the built-in display is (but I hear those a pretty good, yeah?).  But if I go PC I'll definitely keep in mind your advice and shop for a 27" 4K IPS display.

[azrael]

59 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

So I'm really platform agnostic, I was just looking to get some opinions on whether one platform is better than the other for this one specific task.  And it seems like the answer is "not really."

Yep.

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

If I go Mac, I'm pretty much settled on the 27" iMac.  But if I go the Mac route, I can pretty safely say I'd just use it for video editing and some web browsing.  I don't mind dropping two grand a computer just for this, if I felt that computer was definitely the best option for it.  But like I said, my gaming PC is getting a little old, and I'm going to want to upgrade that in the near future, too.  While my wife has been almost uncharacteristically supportive of me buying a computer and getting into video editing I'd be pushing it if I tried to talk her into a new gaming PC and an iMac.  I could go with the iMac and put off upgrading the PC for awhile longer, but considering how many people are telling me they use PCs for the video editing I'm starting to think I'd be better off investing in a PC that can do both.

If I go Mac, I'll be using whatever the built-in display is (but I hear those a pretty good, yeah?).  But if I go PC I'll definitely keep in mind your advice and shop for a 27" 4K IPS display.

Any gaming system can do video editing. So unless you are dead set on separating video editing work from gaming, making one machine will be more economical. Unless you want to game while rendering a video, then I would consider 2 systems.

The iMac 21" has the option for the 4K screen while the 27" comes with a 5K screen. Both support the P3 color gamut.

[mikeszekely]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

The iMac 21" has the option for the 4K screen while the 27" comes with a 5K screen. Both support the P3 color gamut.

Any standalone monitors you like?  Or, your thoughts on refresh rates?

Seems that 4K IPS with sRGB 99% is doable in the $300-$500 range, but only at 60Hz.  To hit 120 or 144Hz it looks like I either start to trade resolution and or color accuracy or the price goes way up.  I'm not sure how much refresh rate affects video editing.  On paper a higher refresh rate is better for gaming, but I'm thinking that in practice even with a GTX 2080 I'm not likely to go much beyond 60-70fps at 4K with everything else cranked up.

[azrael]

3 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

Any standalone monitors you like?  Or, your thoughts on refresh rates?

Seems that 4K IPS with sRGB 99% is doable in the $300-$500 range, but only at 60Hz.  To hit 120 or 144Hz it looks like I either start to trade resolution and or color accuracy or the price goes way up.  I'm not sure how much refresh rate affects video editing.  On paper a higher refresh rate is better for gaming, but I'm thinking that in practice even with a GTX 2080 I'm not likely to go much beyond 60-70fps at 4K with everything else cranked up.

No particular brand. I'm using a Acer Predator 27" IPS along with a NEC 24" IPS but I've used Dells, BenQs, Samsungs. Higher refresh rates are only good for FPS gaming. MMPORGs need screen real estate more than anything. Bizarrely enough, FPS gaming does not like to break out of the 1080p-1440p range since any higher sacrifices refresh rates. 

4k IPS @ 60Hz that supports sRGB is probably where I would hover around. The focus should be on color accuracy. The object of video editing is making the video look nice. If the colors are wrong or washed out, there goes your product. From there, it would depend on the deal. Most Youtube videos are made for the 1080p 30fps crowd so 60hz is plenty fine for video editing.

[Mazinger]

And there's always the Hackintosh option.  Hackintoshin' techniques have come pretty far and if you feel brave, are a good way to get a very powerful "mac" for not a lot of money. There is one video related compromise however. Recent versions of Mac OSX essentially dropped support for Nvidia video cards which some workloads require for CUDA support.  OSX has pretty much standardized on Radeon cards.  Nvidia cards still hold the raw gaming performance lead, but it appears AMD cards aren't as far back as they once were and seem to be targeting more conventional purposes.

I actually run an older version of OSX in order to continue to support my GTX 970.  OSX thinks it's running on an "iMac (27-inch, Late 2013)". I figure I'll just let it keep on believing that.

[mikeszekely]

5 minutes ago, Mazinger said:

And there's always the Hackintosh option.  Hackintoshin' techniques have come pretty far and if you feel brave, are a good way to get a very powerful "mac" for not a lot of money. There is one video related compromise however. Recent versions of Mac OSX essentially dropped support for Nvidia video cards which some workloads require for CUDA support.  OSX has pretty much standardized on Radeon cards.  Nvidia cards still hold the raw gaming performance lead, but it appears AMD cards aren't as far back as they once were and seem to be targeting more conventional purposes.

I actually run an older version of OSX in order to continue to support my GTX 970.  OSX thinks it's running on an "iMac (27-inch, Late 2013)". I figure I'll just let it keep on believing that.

Fun fact, my first real OSX experience was a Hackintosh I set up back when OSX 10.4 "Tiger" was the new hotness.  It was fun, and what led me to buy my first real Apple computer, a 13" MacBook (also running Tiger).

While building a new Hackintosh would be both fun and cheaper than buying an iMac it's unlikely that the savings would be low enough to enough that I can get it and a new gaming PC.  So that'd really put me back at not seeing a clear edge for Macs over PCs for video editing and thinking I'm still better off getting a new gaming PC and doing my video editing there.

41 minutes ago, azrael said:

Higher refresh rates are only good for FPS gaming. MMPORGs need screen real estate more than anything.

I play all kinds of games, including FPS (feel free to friend me on Steam, my username there is the same as it is here).  But, my current monitor is 60Hz, and it's not like I'm having a bad time now.  The two biggest reasons I've slowed down on my PC gaming is my aging hardware isn't pushing the pixels it used to, and having a kid (currently 4yo) I need to keep an eye on limits my time on my PC to mostly after she goes to bed.

46 minutes ago, azrael said:

4k IPS @ 60Hz that supports sRGB is probably where I would hover around.

OK.  I'm thinking I might go for an LG 27UD68-W (27", 4K, IPS, 60Hz, and 99% sRGB accuracy, only around $300).

As for the PC, I usually build them.  But, the contact I had at Microsoft left to work for EA, so I have to pay for my Windows licenses now, and it's starting to look cheaper to just buy a pre-built.  Looks like I can get an Asus ROG Strix GL12CX with a Core i7-9700K, 16GB of RAM, a 512GB M2 SSD + a 1TB 7200RPM SATA HDD, and a GeForce GTX 2080 for around $1600.

[azrael]

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

OK.  I'm thinking I might go for an LG 27UD68-W (27", 4K, IPS, 60Hz, and 99% sRGB accuracy, only around $300).

As for the PC, I usually build them.  But, the contact I had at Microsoft left to work for EA, so I have to pay for my Windows licenses now, and it's starting to look cheaper to just buy a pre-built.  Looks like I can get an Asus ROG Strix GL12CX with a Core i7-9700K, 16GB of RAM, a 512GB M2 SSD + a 1TB 7200RPM SATA HDD, and a GeForce GTX 2080 for around $1600.

Looks like a good panel. The stand looks like plastic (ewwwwwwwwwwwwww).

Specs look fine. After market upgrade of another 16GB and a >2TB HDD should be a down-the-road upgrade. Unedited, uncompressed video files can be notoriously large.

[mikeszekely]

7 hours ago, azrael said:

Looks like a good panel. The stand looks like plastic (ewwwwwwwwwwwwww).

It is, but apparently it's sturdier than the -P version. And iirc it's VESA-compatible, so there stand is replaceable.

7 hours ago, azrael said:

Specs look fine. After market upgrade of another 16GB and a >2TB HDD should be a down-the-road upgrade. Unedited, uncompressed video files can be notoriously large.

I have a 3TB drive for storage I'll move from my current PC, plus a 5TB USB 3 external. Storage is covered.

As for the RAM, yeah, I figured it need an upgrade at some point. But that's easily doable.

[azrael]

CES is this week. Here's the schedule.

Really, Intel? 14++ nm? Your 10nm mobile chips aren't ready yet?

[JB0]

13 hours ago, azrael said:

CES is this week. Here's the schedule.

Really, Intel? 14++ nm? Your 10nm mobile chips aren't ready yet?

I give it six months before Intel starts explaining how there were never any plans to go to 10nm because it isn't physically possible, and just accuses everyone else of straight-up lying about their transistor sizes.

[David Hingtgen]

I may need to build a new PC sooner than later----there seem to be a lot less barebones kits, CPU/RAM/mobo combos out there than there used to be----or am I just looking at the wrong places?   Heck, historically I got a lot of my stuff from Newegg and NCSX----the former sucks now and the latter is gone.  

Also----any recent developments I should know about?  (Like, a new Intel socket is coming soon and I'd be a fool to buy an LGA-1151 mobo right now)

[JB0]

A new Intel socket is ALWAYS coming soon, but right now AMD is wrecking Intel's face on all fronts. There's basically no world in which it makes sense to not get an AM4 board.  It's not Sledgehammer time again, but it IS pretty awesome.

 

I'm hoping Intel gets their crap together and starts being competitive again, but... maybe not too soon? Let AMD solidify their footing first.

[mikeszekely]

All I know is that I've been building my own PCs since the Core 2 Duo was the new hotness, and for the first time yesterday I ordered a pre-built Asus ROG Strix desktop.  Sometime in the last few years along it got cheaper to buy than build, and with a 4 year old always needing to be run somewhere I don't have the time anyway.

But yes, Comet Lake will use a new socket (LGA 1200).  But it isn't expected to be widely available for desktops until late this year or even next year.

On 12/27/2019 at 2:47 AM, azrael said:

Looks like a good panel. The stand looks like plastic (ewwwwwwwwwwwwww).

I wound up spending an extra $150 and bought a 27UK850-W instead. 

[David Hingtgen]

I'm re-using my GTX 1080, and don't plan to upgrade that for a while, and since that's the most expensive component, I plan to do just mobo/RAM/CPU/SSD.  Re-use power supply and main/storage HDD.    It's not "new from scratch", but almost a new PC?   Yes, I know AMD is the new hotness right now, but I still plan on an Intel CPU/mobo, if for no other reason that familiarity with setting things up.  

Anyways, docking station question, as googling around hasn't really gotten me the answer, or maybe what I want is impossible:  

So, two monitors at home, currently plugged directly into the desktop's GPU.  And of course, my fave ergo-mouse and keyboard, plugged into desktop.    Recently got a company laptop.   Using single small laptop screen sucks for actual work.   I would like to be able to "plug in my laptop to my existing stuff, to use my home monitors/mouse/keyboard/etc".   Normally, this is the realm of a docking station----the mouse/keyboard should be fairly easy to accommodate that way---but what docking station has multiple display port or HDMI *inputs*, that my GPU can output to?   99% of docking stations seem to be "one USB-C from a laptop for input, then docking station outputs to multiple monitors via HDMI/DP cables".   But, I don't know of any GPU that outputs via USB-C, nor many desktops that do either.   How can my GTX 1080 "send video signals to a docking station" etc?  

In short---how can I "easily switch between my desktop and my laptop, to display on my pair of monitors?"   Keeping in mind that USB video sucks, and would basically kill the point of having a dedicated GPU AFAIK, if my 1080's output was converted and sent over USB.    There's plenty of 2-or-3-monitor-output docking stations, but none seem to be set up for "input from a gaming PC, with multiple cables coming from a GPU".     

Heck, I'd probably just manually plug and unplug everything (monitors, keyboard,) when needed if I could, but my laptop only has a single HDMI plug, so I can't plug in both monitors to it directly.

[Mazinger]

30 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

In short---how can I "easily switch between my desktop and my laptop, to display on my pair of monitors?"   Keeping in mind that USB video sucks, and would basically kill the point of having a dedicated GPU AFAIK, if my 1080's output was converted and sent over USB.    There's plenty of 2-or-3-monitor-output docking stations, but none seem to be set up for "input from a gaming PC, with multiple cables coming from a GPU". 

I'm probably adding more noise than signal, but I'll share my home set up.  I have my desktop with a big monitor and then I set my laptop next to it, screen flipped open, and then I use the desktop keyboard and mouse to float between the two with the help of https://symless.com/synergy.

It's a light server/client app that just sends over your typing and clicks to the remote system allowing you do drive it all from one keyboard.

I've been using Synergy for years and I like that I can run it on any of the 3 major OS flavors - windows, mac, linux.

I've actually had 3 systems on my desk running at once, all from one keyboard without issue.

[technoblue]

2 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

In short---how can I "easily switch between my desktop and my laptop, to display on my pair of monitors?"   Keeping in mind that USB video sucks, and would basically kill the point of having a dedicated GPU AFAIK, if my 1080's output was converted and sent over USB.    There's plenty of 2-or-3-monitor-output docking stations, but none seem to be set up for "input from a gaming PC, with multiple cables coming from a GPU". 

Do you need a hardware solution to access your portable system?

What OS are you running? Have you looked into a software KVM switch or something like VNC for Windows? Either should give you access to the laptop on your dual desktop monitors, and since you are on your own local network latency should be minimal if it is visible at all.

[azrael]

13 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I wound up spending an extra $150 and bought a 27UK850-W instead. 

And LG is releasing a 27" 4K IPS 144Hz (overclock to 160Hz) monitor I'm actually interested in. Dammit.

More CES stuff.
I was thinking about a NUC but now....I think I need to think more about it. Yeah, not sure now.

3 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

 

Anyways, docking station question, as googling around hasn't really gotten me the answer, or maybe what I want is...

In short---how can I "easily switch between my desktop and my laptop, to display on my pair of monitors?"   

Does the laptop have a Thunderbolt 3 port (looks like a USB-C port)? There are plenty of Thunderbolt 3 docks out there. I'm not sure there's a good winner-take-all solution out there for what you want to do. Let me think about this.

[David Hingtgen]

The problem isn't the laptop, so much as the desktop.   Hooking the laptop to monitors is easy, it's "doing so, without degrading the desktop's connection to said monitors".   

I am actually currently leaning towards:

Getting a docking station for the laptop, for the laptop to plug into.  Docking station will be of a variety with twin HDMI outputs.   As needed, I will disconnect monitor's HDMI cables from my GPU, and plug them into the HDMI ports of the docking station.   Thus, the monitor end of the HDMI cables will always remain plugged in (because it's very hard to mess with the monitor's own ports), and the "source" end of the HDMI cables will be swapped around as needed between docking station and desktop-GPU.   A docking station is needed due to laptop only having a single HDMI port, and can only support multiple monitors via its USB-C output.  

Not the best/easiest/cheapest solution, but the only one I can think of at the moment. 

[Sanity is Optional]

Nevermind, looks like physical KVM switches still suck or are super expensive.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Sanity is Optional

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, Sanity is Optional said:

Nevermind, looks like physical KVM switches still suck or are super expensive.

Actually, if a remote desktop solution like VNC or similar is out of the question (due to the work laptop configuration and/or company IT policies) then a KVM switch would be the next best solution. My worry is that plugging and unplugging HDMI cables would add extra wear and tear but that is my own personal paranoia to be honest.

[azrael]

4 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

The problem isn't the laptop, so much as the desktop.   Hooking the laptop to monitors is easy, it's "doing so, without degrading the desktop's connection to said monitors".   

I am actually currently leaning towards:

Getting a docking station for the laptop, for the laptop to plug into.  Docking station will be of a variety with twin HDMI outputs.   As needed, I will disconnect monitor's HDMI cables from my GPU, and plug them into the HDMI ports of the docking station.   Thus, the monitor end of the HDMI cables will always remain plugged in (because it's very hard to mess with the monitor's own ports), and the "source" end of the HDMI cables will be swapped around as needed between docking station and desktop-GPU.   A docking station is needed due to laptop only having a single HDMI port, and can only support multiple monitors via its USB-C output.  

Not the best/easiest/cheapest solution, but the only one I can think of at the moment. 

Question: Is DisplayPort out of the question? A 1080 should have DP connections. You can reserve HDMI for the laptop.

[David Hingtgen]

DP isn't out of the question, but I currently have no DP cables.  Laptop has no DP.  So it's 6 of one, half-dozen of the other.  (Laptop to docking station via USB-C,  docking station and/or GPU to monitors via 2 DP or 2 HDMI cables)  

I don't think many, if any, software solutions will work.  Company laptops have a good bit of encryption software etc, I don't even think you can drag-and-drop files with a physical direct ethernet connection to another PC...

::edit::   I mis-read that.  So like, 2 DP cables running from GPU to monitors, and 2 HDMI cables running from docking station to monitors, and switching the monitor's input source as needed?  That may work, let me check my GPU's ports. 

[Sanity is Optional]

KVM switches would be configured like so:

• Keyboard, mouse, and monitor plugged into switch.
• Desktop PC plugged into switch (USB and video)
• Laptop (or docking station) plugged into switch (USB and video)

Switch will let you swap the monitor/keyboard/mouse from laptop to desktop without unplugging and re-plugging.

You would obviously still need to plug the laptop into the switch or docking station though, not much way around that unless you want to remote into the laptop through LAN via your desktop or something.

[azrael]

44 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

::edit::   I mis-read that.  So like, 2 DP cables running from GPU to monitors, and 2 HDMI cables running from docking station to monitors, and switching the monitor's input source as needed?  That may work, let me check my GPU's ports. 

Yeah. Most monitors have secondary inputs.

As for a KVM, you would just need to use the KM-part of a KVM switch.