The computer and electronics super geek thread

[azrael]

$500...This will be interesting.

Professional video cards are not cheap for the good ones and will likely eat 1/2-3/4 of your budget if you go with a better dedicated card. For 3D rendering, I definitely would not use integrated graphics.

That Asus A10 will probably be about as good as you can get for the price since it has dedicated video. This Dell would also fit the bill but you'll want to invest in dedicated graphics.

Dell - Inspiron Desktop - Intel Core i3 - 8GB Memory - 1TB Hard Drive - Black

I would still look at upgrading the dedicated graphics card to one of the spec recommendations.

[Chewie]

I just use Windows Defender in Win8.1 (basically security essentials) which works extremely well and have Malwarebytes active in the background which also seems to work well. Maybe once a week will I do a scan with either Win Def and with Malwarebytes but I also run a Spybot Search & Destroy scan along with them. I haven't had an issue running with these.

Gone are the days of using McAfee, Stop Sign, AVG, Kaspersky bla bla bla.. they are all just nonsense money making loads of crap which do more harm than good.

K.

https://www.av-test.org/en/antivirus/home-windows/

That's just one site of many that utterly slams Defender.

Anecdotal: I've used Kasperksy, Trend Micro, McAfee and currently use Webroot. All paid subscription versions. McAfee was the worst because it was super heavy, short of that, they've all done their jobs. I run biweekly scans with MBAR/MBAM because of a constant spigot issue because of using Vuze. I've never run into an issue. We currently use Sophos at work. If my system engineer every gets over his phobia of non-American AV companies, we'll likely move to Bitdefender.

However, I've run into tons of software/false positive/security issues with free versions of AVG, Avast, and have gotten some nasty nasties with MSE.

Having multiple layers of protection is great, but Defender, IMO, requires more than just itself to be worth anything.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Thanks Azrael. TIGHT budget, about $500. I could go refurbished, but my limitations are based around Adobe Illustrator's requirements (for school). CPU is not a problem, but the graphics card needs to be a minimum of the list below. Best Buy is the only big chain near me. They have an ASUS A10 with R7. I'm starting to think that's my best bet right now. Other refurbed PC's seem to have below requirements graphics card. Thanks for your input! - MT

• NVIDIA Quadro K Series
• Intel HD Graphics 4000 Series
• AMD Radeon R7 / R9 Series Graphics
• 8 GB RAM
• P4 or Athelon CPU (definitely got to do better though)

$500 is tight. I'll say, you don't want to go with Intel's onboard graphics processing, especially not if you're going to be doing rendering. For that matter, I'm not sold on R7 or NVidia Quadro. You'll be better off with a last-gen 6900 series card on a tight budget. I did a quick bit of throwing cheap-ish name-brand components together on Newegg, and I got a decent rig together for a little over $550. You could save some cash by changing to off-brand stuff, but I was trying to get the best bang-for-buck performance I could put together on the cheap. Actually you could get that price into the $500 range if you abandoned the idea of having a case to put everything in.

I think if you were really stuck on a prebuilt machine, that Dell Azrael posted is a good starting place. I'm not a big fan of i3 CPUs, but if you're just doing Illustrator, you probably won't run into too many problems. Go for the open-box $340 version and nab this Sapphire Radeon HD6970 with 2GB of VRAM for $87 after a $10 rebate. That should keep you under budget. Yes it's an old style of card, but it was a flagship card not too long ago, and the price is right.

[MechTech]

Thanks guys for all your help! I will keep your ideas in mind. The class starts soon and the content was finally unlocked. It looks as though I only need charcoal and paper!!! Somebody wasn't talking when it came to posting course materials! The good news is it will be time to upgrade soon and you guys gave me some good ideas for hardware. Thanks again! - MT

[David Hingtgen]

So, been using MS Office 2003 forever---but need new copy for new PC. Office 2013 seems to have a zillion negatives. Want to keep using old DOC and XLS files I've had forever, and have been updating some for literally half my life. Though I could finagle a way to get 2003 off the old PC, it can't read XLSX, which is becoming increasingly common.

So---been looking at "free alternatives". Top 2 seem to be OpenOffice, and LibreOffice. Opinions?

Do not want cloud-base/googleDocs etc. Want a purely (or close to it) offline option.

Read that Kingsoft's WPS Office 10 free is a nigh-clone of Office 2003---but when their site touts the spellchecker, but the page itself has obvious typos---I wonder about their professionalism. (their forum gives me a bad vibe, too)

[JB0]

LibreOffice is a fork of OpenOffice, because Oracle was dicking around with the community.

At this point, Apache owns OpenOffice, but they've had trouble drawing developers. And due to license oddities, code from OpenOffice can be used in LibreOffice, but the reverse is not true, so LibreOffice tends to be ahead of the curve.

[technoblue]

LibreOffice. JB0 covered the ins and outs.

If you decide to stick with Microsoft, Office 2010 is my recommendation. After that, I hesitate to recommend Office. 2010 should support both .docx and .xlsx files without the cloud features.

[frothymug]

I have Office 2013 and I only have some minor complaints about Word auto-selecting random fonts and sizes when I am editing a document. Other than that, it's worked just great. What are some of the negatives you've heard?

[mikeszekely]

So, been using MS Office 2003 forever---but need new copy for new PC. Office 2013 seems to have a zillion negatives. Want to keep using old DOC and XLS files I've had forever, and have been updating some for literally half my life. Though I could finagle a way to get 2003 off the old PC, it can't read XLSX, which is becoming increasingly common.

So---been looking at "free alternatives". Top 2 seem to be OpenOffice, and LibreOffice. Opinions?

Do not want cloud-base/googleDocs etc. Want a purely (or close to it) offline option.

Read that Kingsoft's WPS Office 10 free is a nigh-clone of Office 2003---but when their site touts the spellchecker, but the page itself has obvious typos---I wonder about their profressonalism. (their forum gives me a bad vibe, too)

Serious question, where are those negatives coming from? People who don't like the Office 365 sub model? I was lucky to have a friend at Microsoft when I was in grad school who hooked me up with 1-PC license keys Office 2013 Professional, Visio 2013, and Project 2013, and I happen to think Office 2013 is better than Office 2010 (which itself was better than Office 2007).

Anyways, JB0 really has it covered, but the short answer is LibreOffice. I'll point out, though, that both LibreOffice and Microsoft Office can still handle old Office 2003 .doc files. It's just that neither uses them as the default.

[azrael]

My only complaint about Office 2013 are the ridiculous monthly patch sizes. While Windows patches only range from 100-250MB total, the Office 2013 patches range from 800-900MB total/month. I look at that and shake my head. Otherwise, Office 2013 is just 2010 with cloud-services support built in.

I also echo LibreOffice as a good alternative if you can't find a copy of Office 2010 or 2013.

[David Hingtgen]

Negatives? I've used 2003 for 12 years----not going to pay 12x $99. Want to be able to use it on a future/upgraded PC---not possible with the non-sub version. It's one and only once. Don't like it to demand online/updates----half the time I update my Office stuff is because the net's down.

"Ribbon" menu. I still despise any icon (vs word)-based interface. Especially for things with zillions of options like Office has.

[azrael]

Negatives? I've used 2003 for 12 years----not going to pay 12x $99. Want to be able to use it on a future/upgraded PC---not possible with the non-sub version. It's one and only once. Don't like it to demand online/updates----half the time I update my Office stuff is because the net's down.

Good luck trying to get away from updating anything. It's just not possible anymore. No matter how much you hate it.

"Ribbon" menu. I still despise any icon (vs word)-based interface. Especially for things with zillions of options like Office has.

After a while, you get use to it. After being forced to support it since Office 2007, I don't really notice the it anymore.

[frothymug]

My Office 2013 has never asked me to update. Is it the programs beyond the basic student/teacher edition?

[mikeszekely]

My Office 2013 has never asked me to update. Is it the programs beyond the basic student/teacher edition?

Office pulls its updates through Windows Update.

[David Hingtgen]

PC wouldn't boot today---said no boot device! (which is my SSD). Going into BIOS, SSD didn't even show up. Opened case---unplugged and replugged cables into SSD, now everything's fine.

But case wasn't jostled or anything, no cables seemed loose. But SATA data cables are always kinda flakey IMHO. Is there a "stronger" or more grippy/thicker SATA connector available? I don't want to have to keep popping the case open every time this happens. (granted, this is the first time, but I figure it'll only get worse/looser).

And I'm just assuming it was a cable issue, as that's the only thing I checked/fiddled with, and it solved the problem.

Now, the SATA data cable for the SSD is fairly short and makes a 180 into the MOBO. Could that be putting stress on the connectors? The cable is basically a "U", with the SDD on one end and the MOBO plug on the other---the SSD is mounted on the "backside" of the mobo as is a common spot nowadays, and the cable just goes around from the back of the mobo to the front. (the SATA power cable seemed fine, tightness-wise, and has no stress on it AFAIK)

Could possibly be an issue with the actual MOBO connector, may try plugging SSD into different port.

[azrael]

PC wouldn't boot today---said no boot device! (which is my SSD). Going into BIOS, SSD didn't even show up. Opened case---unplugged and replugged cables into SSD, now everything's fine.

...

Could possibly be an issue with the actual MOBO connector, may try plugging SSD into different port.

Most mobo manufacturers ship SATA cables with clips to secure them into the port. I'm sure they sell them 3rd-party at Best Buy/Fry's. I would probably pick up a set. They can be more secure than the original SATA plugs.

If the plug is taunt or being pushed by other cables, that could be a problem and could cause intermittent issues (it's basically a loose plug). My suggestion is go to Fry's or a MicroCenter and find some SATA cables with the clips built in and see if it helps. Try doing some cable management as well so that your cables are free from being snagged by other cables.

[frothymug]

I'd definitely prefer the SATA cables with the clips, like Azrael mentioned. However, you can also find cables with 90 degree ends to keep from having to kink the cables inside of your case (I currently use these). Whichever has the best bang for your buck, I guess...

[David Hingtgen]

Clip-clip, or like a spring tab? My SSD is using the mobo-supplied cables with the latter. Would prefer something like an actual external clamp. And I think one end is right-angled----I am using like 3 different types of SATA cables throughout the PC, for optimal angles/stress/positioning.

Going to try a longer cable, or even mount SSD in main cage bay instead of on back of mobo tray---it is a "barely fits due to cable connector housing touching tray" situation as it is. (Just one mm more would help, but mobo tray is metal and not going anywhere)

[azrael]

Clip-clip, or like a spring tab? My SSD is using the mobo-supplied cables with the latter. Would prefer something like an actual external clamp. And I think one end is right-angled----I am using like 3 different types of SATA cables throughout the PC, for optimal angles/stress/positioning.

Probably a spring tab. It would probably help to switch to non-right angled cables. Right-angled cables look nice, but terrible when you need your cables to perfom acrobatic twists. Especially when you have two 2.5" drives stacked on top of one another.

[SchizophrenicMC]

At work, we use a lot of SATA cables. Kinking the cables for management isn't a problem for them, and you can figure out a way to kink the cable to force it into the connector on your drive, probably. None of the SATA cables we use have clips, they're just held in by the connector's fit and the cables keeping tension on them. Most of them are right-angle connector style with the cables jammed into the bottom of the chassis for extra stability. On the larger servers with 12 or more drives, we do use Mini-SAS connectors, which do have clips, but the connector style is totally different anyway.

[JB0]

SATA is just a crap standard, no two ways about it.

[SchizophrenicMC]

There's a surprising amount of thought that's gone into SATA. The only thing I really mind about it at this point is the maximum 6GB/s throughput. Everything else is intelligent enough to kind of just work, but the data bandwidth is sorely lacking compared to other standards that have improved in recent time, particularly PCI-E.

[David Hingtgen]

Totally different PC, odd issue:

My dad now has my previous PC. He got it all hooked up and running fine. A week or two later (as in, yesterday), he tried to hook the printer up too. (same printer it had for prior to him getting it). Plugged printer power cable into wall, plugged printer USB into PC---and the printer's display screen said "something-something failure---shutting down all systems". And pretty much killed the PC. Would only do an endless reboot cycle of just a few secs, wouldn't even get to BIOS screen. After unplugging all USB devices, it would (sometimes) boot to windows. But can't do anything without keyboard/mouse. More experimenting---will accept PS/2 mouse. Got that working. Then got keyboard to work on one of the USB slots. But no internet. Plugged ethernet cable into the other LAN port (yes, that MOBO has two). No better. Windows still says it cant find/recognize the device (I assume the LAN port itself). Trying system restore and/or Win7 repaint install tomorrow. (I'm trying to do/explain all this over the phone with my dad, as that PC is now several states away and I can't actually see what's going on---he should be able to click over/through to system restore, and he's found the win7 install disc in case a repair install is needed---and he SHOULD be able to do that with my coaching))

My dad isn't savvy enough to go into the BIOS and look at things, but I'm just trying to figure out why the heck plugging a printer back into a system (the same printer the PC would "expect" and is configured/drivered for) would apparently disable/rewrite all the device manager configurations etc for all the ports---it seems every LAN/USB port is screwed up, even the remote USB ports on the front panel etc. Only 1 or 2 USB ports work at all, and not with every device. Frankly---WTF? Never heard of anything like that. PC was FINE until that printer was plugged in via USB. PC had been fine for months before with that very same printer plugged in. But it's taken all day just to be able to get windows running, but with no internet connection it's not much use to him. (and the internet connection itself is fine, WiFi is still working in the house---the PC just won't connect through/find/access the LAN port for some reason)

I'm hoping the 'net connection issue can be fixed via windows, and this isn't a BIOS-level issue. (and how on earth would a printer affect the BIOS? I can almost accept it trying something funky via USB drivers and messing up windows, but not the BIOS)

[azrael]

Try uninstalling the USB root hubs and then reinstall. If you have USB 3 ports, you'll need to grab the drivers to reinstall those. Try reinstalling the chipset drivers for that system.

The next steps would probably require a house call. Try resetting the BIOS back to factory default. Check the insides to see if anything happened during transport (loose cable causing a surge). Bring a Linux live CD (Ubuntu, Knoppix) to see if it's a software problem.

If that still hasn't resolved the issue, then I'm guessing hardware failure.

[technoblue]

Totally different PC, odd issue:

My dad now has my previous PC. He got it all hooked up and running fine. A week or two later (as in, yesterday), he tried to hook the printer up too. (same printer it had for prior to him getting it). Plugged printer power cable into wall, plugged printer USB into PC---and the printer's display screen said "something-something failure---shutting down all systems". And pretty much killed the PC. Would only do an endless reboot cycle of just a few secs, wouldn't even get to BIOS screen. After unplugging all USB devices, it would (sometimes) boot to windows. But can't do anything without keyboard/mouse. More experimenting---will accept PS/2 mouse. Got that working. Then got keyboard to work on one of the USB slots. But no internet. Plugged ethernet cable into the other LAN port (yes, that MOBO has two). No better. Windows still says it cant find/recognize the device (I assume the LAN port itself). Trying system restore and/or Win7 repaint install tomorrow. (I'm trying to do/explain all this over the phone with my dad, as that PC is now several states away and I can't actually see what's going on---he should be able to click over/through to system restore, and he's found the win7 install disc in case a repair install is needed---and he SHOULD be able to do that with my coaching))

The highlighted bit is the most curious to me. A printer's error message is specific to printer functionality and shouldn't crash a PC. For instance, one of the common HP inkjet printer errors is the Ink System Failure message and this is usually posted to the display with a note to turn the printer off and then on again in an attempt to reset the printer. Since the computer is also acting up, you may want to ask your Dad for very detailed steps on how he set up the PC once he got it in hand. Best case, it could be that the printer was connected to a new USB port and was trying to reinstall its drivers, and that process somehow failed and corrupted Windows at the software level. A system restore "should" help in this case. Worst cast, is a hardware failure as azrael noted. This could be the result of a loose connection, a power spike that randomly fried something, the printer giving up its ghost or any number of things...

[JB0]

There's a surprising amount of thought that's gone into SATA. The only thing I really mind about it at this point is the maximum 6GB/s throughput. Everything else is intelligent enough to kind of just work, but the data bandwidth is sorely lacking compared to other standards that have improved in recent time, particularly PCI-E.

The connectors are flimsy garbage they found in a cereal box, and the inability to chain multiple drives off one base connector is completely inept. Just because IDE did it wrong is no reason to insist it can't be done reasonably.

...

We shoulda all just converted to SCSI in the 90s. You know it's bad when I'm advocating that we follow APPLE.

The 6GB/s thing is because SATA wasn't ever designed for flash media. Solid state drives saturate every new version of the standard as fast as it's introduced, and hard disks still can't saturate the 3GB/s outside of cache hits. Not to mention high performance hard disks have followed the dodo and passenger pigeon into the next life.

SATA folks basically decided to let PCIe take the SSD market instead of continuing to try and keep up with SSD, which was a losing proposition.

[spanner]

any clue as to when the next gen nvidia architecture will be out? Im holding off upgrading my vid card till then..

[JB0]

any clue as to when the next gen nvidia architecture will be out? Im holding off upgrading my vid card till then..

In my experience, they typically announce two weeks after you buy an upgrade.

Edited October 2, 2015 by JB0

[mikeszekely]

In my experience, they typically announce two weeks after you buy an upgrade.

Pretty much this. I haven't heard any rumblings, and there's always the chance that they skip desktops again (the GTX 800 series were mobile only). I wouldn't count any anything until late summer next year for their flagship, with the x70 and x60 around the holidays. I mean, if you can wait, awesome, but I don't think you're shooting yourself in the foot if you bite the bullet on a GTX 900-series card now.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The connectors are flimsy garbage they found in a cereal box, and the inability to chain multiple drives off one base connector is completely inept. Just because IDE did it wrong is no reason to insist it can't be done reasonably.

...

We shoulda all just converted to SCSI in the 90s. You know it's bad when I'm advocating that we follow APPLE.

The 6GB/s thing is because SATA wasn't ever designed for flash media. Solid state drives saturate every new version of the standard as fast as it's introduced, and hard disks still can't saturate the 3GB/s outside of cache hits. Not to mention high performance hard disks have followed the dodo and passenger pigeon into the next life.

SATA folks basically decided to let PCIe take the SSD market instead of continuing to try and keep up with SSD, which was a losing proposition.

SATA 3.2 runs to a maximum 16Gb/s bandwidth. The only SCSI standard that exceeds that is SAS 4.0 which is just SATA with the voltage turned up and different software. Even Fibre Channel 16 only runs 13.6Gb/s maximums. Thunderbolt 2 does reach 20Gb/s throughput, but let's not give credit to Apple for that one. Intel made it when they decided it would be cheaper to modify a USB standard instead of making a new optical standard.

The only real disadvantage I've run into in SATA is the inability to chain drives through the controller standard. The physical standards for SATA work well enough, given SAS 4.0's performance on the same, and notably its ability to chain SATA drives to a SATA-based controller with SCSI logic. (Though, given, the controllers all seem to interface with PCI; mobo-bound SATA buses are slow) The only reason the connectors are junk is because you buy junk connectors. (Or they come with your junk Mobo) I've seen all kinds of SATA connectors, and some are trash and some are quality pieces. It's not the connector standard's fault, blame the manufacturer. But the connectors do have a good bit of thought given to them. There are 3 pin lengths between the male and female ends, which natively allows for hot-swapping drives without damage or discontinuity, something that has to be shoved off onto the controller standard in other attachment standards.

Actually, I'm starting to think we should just cover mobos in PCI-E slots and run all peripherals off the PCI buses rather than trying to build a hard disk bus directly into a motherboard. I mean, if you want performance, that does seem to be the way to go, either through direct PCI hard drives, or PCI-based drive controllers running your SATA/SAS/Favorite Standard drives. Who needs thermal control?

[JB0]

SATA 3.2 runs to a maximum 16Gb/s bandwidth. The only SCSI standard that exceeds that is SAS 4.0 which is just SATA with the voltage turned up and different software. Even Fibre Channel 16 only runs 13.6Gb/s maximums. Thunderbolt 2 does reach 20Gb/s throughput, but let's not give credit to Apple for that one. Intel made it when they decided it would be cheaper to modify a USB standard instead of making a new optical standard.

I just meant SCSI was a better standard than ATA, and would've mostly removed any need for SATA in the first place. Not that it was faster.

Speed of the interconnect is not the limiting factor on hard disks, and flash drives are gradually getting off of hard drive interfaces entirely.

The only real disadvantage I've run into in SATA is the inability to chain drives through the controller standard. The physical standards for SATA work well enough, given SAS 4.0's performance on the same, and notably its ability to chain SATA drives to a SATA-based controller with SCSI logic. (Though, given, the controllers all seem to interface with PCI; mobo-bound SATA buses are slow) The only reason the connectors are junk is because you buy junk connectors. (Or they come with your junk Mobo) I've seen all kinds of SATA connectors, and some are trash and some are quality pieces. It's not the connector standard's fault, blame the manufacturer. But the connectors do have a good bit of thought given to them. There are 3 pin lengths between the male and female ends, which natively allows for hot-swapping drives without damage or discontinuity, something that has to be shoved off onto the controller standard in other attachment standards.

They're still flimsy connectors. The dang tongue is too narrow for my comfort.

And yes, my very first SATA mobo(An Abit, may they rest in peace) DID have a connector pull up off the board while I was trying to route a locking cable. Plastic shell just came straight up, and I broke a pin off while trying to get it to line up and go back down.

I studiously avoid using locking cables on SATA ports that stick straight up because of that experience. Try to avoid straight-up connectors entirely. Right-angle or GTFO.

Actually, I'm starting to think we should just cover mobos in PCI-E slots and run all peripherals off the PCI buses rather than trying to build a hard disk bus directly into a motherboard. I mean, if you want performance, that does seem to be the way to go, either through direct PCI hard drives, or PCI-based drive controllers running your SATA/SAS/Favorite Standard drives. Who needs thermal control?

MORE PCIE LANES! MORE!

Actually, it seems to me like a lot of boards have been IO-starved lately, and we really DO need more PCIE lanes in general. Putting drives directly on the bus just exacerbates an already-bad situation.

[azrael]

...

Actually, it seems to me like a lot of boards have been IO-starved lately, and we really DO need more PCIE lanes in general. Putting drives directly on the bus just exacerbates an already-bad situation.

But but but but it's faster!

any clue as to when the next gen nvidia architecture will be out? Im holding off upgrading my vid card till then..

Sometime in 2016. So how long do you want to wait?

[JB0]

But but but but it's faster!

It is. And the obvious solution is to not just add enough PCIE lanes to cover current usage, but to add WAY MORE PCIE lanes.

I'm actually serious here. We need motherboards with far more PCIE lanes than they have, though Intel's newest chipsets go someway towards alleviating the situation.

[SchizophrenicMC]

The problem with hardware standards is, they have to be future-proof to justify their development cost, but hardware is impossible to future proof because Moore's Law keeps making electronics more powerful and suddenly your hard drives are using form factors developed decades ago when a few megabytes of storage was incredibly large, only now you're choked because you can get mechanical drives with several terabytes for less than $100, or solid-state memory devices that have theoretical data access speeds exceeding any reasonable standard.

Not to mention it takes a few years from conception to implementation, in which time the standard comes out behind the technological curve to begin with. It's a wonder any of them work, and that PCIE works as well as it does.

But seriously, we need more PCIE lanes. Like a lot more. I'm finding myself choked for peripheral support here. The problem with PCIE is it's a really large form factor that doesn't work if you try and cable it, so you're super limited by packaging and cooling constraints.You have to put big multi-pin cards right on the motherboard, eating up all the precious little space at the back of the case and leaving a little bit in the front, which isn't a big problem if you have one or two PCIE peripherals, but if you've got 2 graphics cards, a couple SSDs, a sound card, and a USB hub, you just found yourself on an EATX or WTX motherboard and a full tower case you don't have room for. And no more room to expand your peripheral selection. (In any case, I think there's only one 6-PCIE mobo on the market right now anyway, and if you double up on graphics cards on that, you can only use 5 slots anyway because of packaging) And sure that's an extreme case, but there are workstations with greater needs than even that.

[JB0]

Well, PCIE lanes don't always go to PCIE slots. Interfaces for onboard controllers wire to PCIE, as does an M.2 SSD slot.

And I would LOVE to see boards sporting M.2 become the standard.