The computer and electronics super geek thread

[technoblue]

The Razer Deathadder is a good mouse. I went with the left-handed version when my ambidextrous Logitech mouse died. It's very comfortable in the hand, but I can't speak to the software since I'm not a fan of using software for wired mice. I do find myself sliding into a claw grip on rare occasions with certain tasks and games, which causes me to accidentally click the thumb buttons. That's more of my own issue though, and not a harsh critique of the mouse itself.

I also wish there were more ambidextrous mice with top-of-the-line features, but that's a rant for another day.

[mikeszekely]

The Razer Deathadder is a good mouse. I went with the left-handed version when my ambidextrous Logitech mouse died. It's very comfortable in the hand, but I can't speak to the software since I'm not a fan of using software for wired mice. I do find myself sliding into a claw grip on rare occasions with certain tasks and games, which causes me to accidentally click the thumb buttons. That's more of my own issue though, and not a harsh critique of the mouse itself.

I also wish there were more ambidextrous mice with top-of-the-line features, but that's a rant for another day.

Isn't the Taipan an ambidextrous mouse?

And what's up with everyone not liking software? I've used Logitech mice for years, and I've always used their software to map the thumb keys to G and V (which I use as my grenade and melee keys in FPS games). The Synapse software Razer uses has the added benefit of allowing you to register your warranties and keep track of their serial numbers and warranty status.

[azrael]

And what's up with everyone not liking software? I've used Logitech mice for years, and I've always used their software to map the thumb keys to G and V (which I use as my grenade and melee keys in FPS games). The Synapse software Razer uses has the added benefit of allowing you to register your warranties and keep track of their serial numbers and warranty status.

My reasoning is I hate the extra layer of software just to get something to work. I like my systems to run as few pieces of software at the user or application-layer as possible. At least the driver can run at the kernel layer. Which is why I like running without software if the device has internal memory.

But the idea is if you bring your own keyboard/mouse to LAN parties or events, you don't have to worry about installing drivers on a 3rd party system. Your predefined macros and customizations are stored on the keyboard and mouse so you never have to worry and spend time doing a setup when you are away from your gaming system. It's all built in and ready to go when you get there.

[mikeszekely]

My reasoning is I hate the extra layer of software just to get something to work. I like my systems to run as few pieces of software at the user or application-layer as possible. At least the driver can run at the kernel layer. Which is why I like running without software if the device has internal memory.

But the idea is if you bring your own keyboard/mouse to LAN parties or events, you don't have to worry about installing drivers on a 3rd party system. Your predefined macros and customizations are stored on the keyboard and mouse so you never have to worry and spend time doing a setup when you are away from your gaming system. It's all built in and ready to go when you get there.

Ah. It doesn't really bother me, especially since I'm running both Windows and the Razer/Logitech software from the SSD, so it's all up and running from a cold boot in no time flat. I just don't want to run both. In any case, not sure about the rest of their gear, but a lot of the Deathstalker's features work from the keyboard without running Synapse.

If you don't run the software, though, how are you supposed to program the buttons/macros? I mean, I know my Logitech mouse is supposed to store all the settings in local memory, and I'm pretty sure that Razers' stuff does too, but isn't the software necessary to program that stuff in the first place?

And, to each his own and what not, but I think it'd be kind of weird to bring your own mouse and keyboard, but leave your own box at home. Heck, I'm more likely to bring my tower and borrow a mouse/keyboard/monitor.

[azrael]

Ah. It doesn't really bother me, especially since I'm running both Windows and the Razer/Logitech software from the SSD, so it's all up and running from a cold boot in no time flat. I just don't want to run both. In any case, not sure about the rest of their gear, but a lot of the Deathstalker's features work from the keyboard without running Synapse.

Even if it just shaves milliseconds or cuts memory usage by less than , say 60MB, I still do it. But that's me.

If you don't run the software, though, how are you supposed to program the buttons/macros? I mean, I know my Logitech mouse is supposed to store all the settings in local memory, and I'm pretty sure that Razers' stuff does too, but isn't the software necessary to program that stuff in the first place?

Yes. But once you program the peripheral how you like it with the software, you never need to launch the software again, nor have it even installed on your computer. Hence, you can bring the peripheral anywhere without worrying about drivers needed to run the device how you want it.

[mikeszekely]

Ah. Well, I'm not super concerned with my boot time. My previous computer took around two full minutes to fully boot. I've had this one for... at least two years, and I'm still caught off guard by how fast it boots.

As for memory, I've got this Firefox window open, plus an instance of Task Manager and Resource Monitor open, with MSE, GeForce Experience, Logitech Gaming Software, Synapse, and Steam all running in the background. Resource Monitor reports 3326MB in use, 6619mb in standby, and 6155mb free. So I'm not really worried about that either. But yeah, probably going to kill that Logitech software.

[technoblue]

Isn't the Taipan an ambidextrous mouse?

Yeah. The Taipan was released a couple of years after the left-handed edition of the Deathadder. If I were in the market today, I would give a good look at the wireless Ouroboros or the wired Taipan. For now, though, my Deathadder is still kicking. The Abyssus is just too small for my hand, or I might consider that one too.

[mikeszekely]

Yeah. The Taipan was released a couple of years after the left-handed edition of the Deathadder. If I were in the market today, I would give a good look at the wireless Ouroboros or the wired Taipan. For now, though, my Deathadder is still kicking. The Abyssus is just too small for my hand, or I might consider that one too.

Well, I guess if your Deathadder is still going strong, not all Razer products have longevity issues.

[azrael]

Well, I guess if your Deathadder is still going strong, not all Razer products have longevity issues.

As I mentioned, Razor products of lately have longevity issues. Around 2012 was when Deathadder problems started happening. From what I heard, it became hit or miss with lots of Deathadders.

[JB0]

Why is there not a standard for programming meeses and keyboards now? You know, aside from manufacturers wanting to promote vendor lock-in and branded advertisements over practical simplicity.

[azrael]

Why is there not a standard for programming meeses and keyboards now? You know, aside from manufacturers wanting to promote vendor lock-in and branded advertisements over practical simplicity.

Well, if you're using a standard office keyboard or mouse, it's just plug & play. I've used Logitech for years in the office. Never needed to use any specialized drivers. But if you want all 'dem fancy features of gaming peripherals, then you need some 'dem drivers.

[mikeszekely]

Well, if you're using a standard office keyboard or mouse, it's just plug & play. I've used Logitech for years in the office. Never needed to use any specialized drivers. But if you want all 'dem fancy features of gaming peripherals, then you need some 'dem drivers.

Yep. And regarding those, I think you answered your own question...

You know, aside from manufacturers wanting to promote vendor lock-in and branded advertisements

[mikeszekely]

Well (not that anyone cares), I decided to give the Deathadder (specifically, the Chroma version) a try. Seems ergonomic enough. It looks smaller than my Logitech G700, but it feels slightly larger in the palm, with less of an arc to the back. It's also a lot lighter than I'm used to, but I think that's just a matter of getting used to it. I think I'll miss Logitech's "hyper scrolling," though.

It's kind of a bummer that the Deathstalker doesn't come in a Chroma version, though. I set the lights on the Deathadder to solid green, to match the keyboard. Would have been cool to have them match the tower's LEDs, though.

I snagged a Vesula mouse pad while I was out, too. I like mouse pads with wrist rests, and my old one was smaller and getting kind of grungy.

[David Hingtgen]

Anyone have keyboard suggestions? Very tempted by mechanical ones. (have pretty much already decided that if I go mechanical, it will be Cherry Brown switches).

Info:

Currently using Eclipse II.

I despise extra keys on the sides, so that eliminates most "gaming" keyboards.

I also require a numeric pad etc, which eliminates the other end of the spectrum of gaming ones.

Not surprisingly, I also demand a totally standard keyboard layout---a LOT of boards do weird things with Esc, Bkspce, \, and others when you really look close.

In short---any "cheap" boards worth looking at? Or should I just go all out and get a Corsair K70 etc?

Or----it seems the Madcatz Cyborg V5 is basically a "new" Eclipse. I loved my Eclipse II when it was new---anyone got the Madcatz version? Madcatz stuff varies WIDELY---some is utter crap, some is pretty nice.

[mikeszekely]

I'm probably not the best one to ask, since I actually like chiclet keys, but a little research has most of the mechanical keyboards with Cherry Brown switches at around $130, so maybe go for the K70? It looks like a K70 with Cherry Brown switches and red LED backlighting is $130 or so, and something like $170-$190 for the RGB version with customizable backlighting. Tom's Hardware has it listed as the "Best mechanical gaming keyboard" in their Best Gaming Keyboards of 2015 article (although their best overall is the Razer Blackwidow Chroma, which is also a mechanical keyboard. The Blackwidow's probably aren't for you... they do have one column of macro buttons on the left edge, and they use their own proprietary switches (although I hear that they're basically copies of Cherry's with the "stealth" versions being the equivalent of browns). One nice thing about the Razers, though, is that they have a cutout on the package so you can feel their switches before you buy, and Walmart actually stocks them. With Walmart's lax return policy, you could always try it out, and if you don't like it take it back and order a K70.

[JB0]

To the best of my knowledge, the Mad Catz is identical to the Eclipses, as far as the actual 104-key part goes. Less lighting options being the big difference.

The Eclipse II was a good membrane keyboard.

As far as microswitched goes, you've laid out my selection logic pretty well. I've got a Cooler Master QuickFire Pro, and the lack of an app menu key bothers me a little, but not as much as the f-keys being toggled between f-key and music controls instead of shifted to music controls.

I've nearly bought a Corsair a couple times. Only stopped last time because they seem to have killed the original unpainted style option,and I really like brushed aluminum.

[azrael]

Anyone have keyboard suggestions? Very tempted by mechanical ones. (have pretty much already decided that if I go mechanical, it will be Cherry Brown switches).

Razor keyboards would fit your bill. Logitech G710+ would also work minus the extra keys. The G710+ uses Cherry Browns and they have O-rings installed to further reduce noise. Ducky keyboards are simple as they can get for mechanical keyboards but you have search around for them. The K70 is a good keyboard but I would cringe at that price (MSRP), even if it is a metal keyboard. Coolermaster also makes some decent mechanical keyboards. I didn't spend too much time looking at those since they didn't have the features I was looking at when I was looking at mechanical keyboards.

Personally, I use a Roccat Ryos with Cherry Browns. I know people complain about the Ryos' gigantic non-removable wrist rest but I love it, considering my last few keyboards have had large wrist rests.

[Nekko Basara]

I have been using a Corsair K90 (Cherry reds) for a few years and I adore it. The layout is clean and simple, and it is built like a tank. The big advantage I feel it has over every other mechanical keyboard I have seen (or rubber some types, for that matter) is that the keys are placed free-standing on top of an aluminum backplate, not countersunk or surrounded by any type of cutouts. This makes it much easier to clean the keyboard out - simply tilting it and tapping will cause any crud behind the keys to slide out. I haven't found any disadvantage to this "naked key" design in terms of feel/use, and I wish more companies would adopt it.

It's also worth noting that because the keys are on standard Cherry switches, you can replace the keycaps with aftermarkets, add dampener rings, etc.

The K90 is out of production, but the K70 lacks only the bank of macro keys, and has several improvements:

- You can get it in other flavors of switch, including Brown.

- The keys now have individually programmable backlighting.

- All keys are mechanical (on my K90, a few peripheral keys actually use rubber domes).

Corsair keyboards aren't the cheapest mechanicals out there, but they're far from the most expensive. I researched and waffled on getting mine for at least a year, but I've never regretted it since. I've honestly never seen a bad review of one of their mechanical keyboards from a professional site.

[frothymug]

My "W" key has been sticking lately and I've started to also consider trying out a mechanical keyboard. I've been happy with cheap $10-15 keyboards thus far. Why do you guys like mechanical keyboards? What about them would make someone want to switch?

Oh, and I do play a lot of games of various genres. I currently spend most of my time playing WoW, but I occasionally binge-play some other games from time to time.

Edited April 20, 2015 by frothymug

[technoblue]

I have Filco and Leopold mechanical keyboards here at home. Both are easy to recommend, and both come in full-sized and tenkeyless layouts (no numpad). I use one keyboard outfit with blue Cherry switches specifically for typing and another outfit with Brown Cherry switches for general/gaming use. I also like having a tenkeyless keyboard for games/portability, but that's more of a personal thing. I definitely need a full-sized keyboard for writing (I can't give up alt-num codes).

CoolerMaster also makes a line of full-sized and tenkeyless mechanical keyboards that get good reviews.

[JB0]

My "W" key has been sticking lately and I've started to also consider trying out a mechanical keyboard. I've been happy with cheap $10-15 keyboards thus far. Why do you guys like mechanical keyboards? What about them would make someone want to switch?

I got a higher-end membrane keyboard, and had difficulty enjoying the cheapies after that. Then I got a microswitched keyboard, and have difficulty enjoying any membrane keyboard.

Basically, they feel better. And it's not necessarily something you will appreciate until after you've used one.

The biggest thing is since you don't have to push ALL the way down, and the microswitch continues to resist once it starts moving(whereas once a silicone membrane gives, it gives way all at once), you aren't smacking your fingertips on a hard surface at full speed with every keystroke. It makes extended use far more comfortable.

[David Hingtgen]

Went to BestBuy---they had a K70, but only MX red versions. Also something I suspect was MX blue, since it was very clicky.

Did however, find a "Deathadder" mouse, which I liked the feel of a lot, maybe even more than the MX Master's shape, has a better thumb-button location, and it's quite a bit cheaper. But the MX Master though does have the awesome "scroll-wheel on the thumb button" (more like a scroll-barrel), mainly intended for horizontal scrolling---which would be quite a boon for how I do things. But yeesh, nowhere has the MX Master for even a penny less than full MSRP.

However, a quick glance at reviews shows lots of longevity issues with the Deathadder.

Anyone own the Deathadder (Chroma version, if it makes a difference) or the MX Master? My own BestBuy is out of MX Masters currently (not even a spot for them any more) so I couldn't directly compare.

[mikeszekely]

Yeah, I just bought a Deathadder Chroma a few days ago. I've heard about their longevity issues, but I decided to weigh it against the popularity of the brand. The more people that use it, the more people that are going to have one that fails, even if the failure rate is the same 1/1000. All I can tell you is that Razer's Synapse software is solid, and if you register a Razer ID you can register your warranty through the software and keep tabs on its status, and you get a 2-year warranty with the Deathadder Chroma.

In any case, it's a little lighter than I'm used to, but I'm adjusting quickly. The shape and size are great for my hands and the way I hold my mouse (palm style), there's not to ton of extra buttons I'll never use but two thumb buttons I definitely will, and in the Chroma's case you can use the Synapse software to program the mouse's lighting to match your computer's (or in my case, my keyboard's, since my keyboard has green backlighting by the power LED and the fan control LEDs on my case are blue). All-in-all, assuming it holds up, I'm liking it more than I though I would.

Plus side, if you go with a Blackwidow mechanical keyboard, you can manage the mouse and keyboard with the same software.

[azrael]

My "W" key has been sticking lately and I've started to also consider trying out a mechanical keyboard. I've been happy with cheap $10-15 keyboards thus far. Why do you guys like mechanical keyboards? What about them would make someone want to switch?

Why did I go mechanical? Mostly due to responsiveness. Gaming on mid-range keyboards lead to wear&tear and missed keystrokes. After trying a few keyboards, I gave in and settled on going mechanical. After that, it was just a matter of finding one that had features I wanted.

Why should someone switch to a mechanical? It depends on use. If you are a typist, then mechanical keys might give you the responsive feel that membranes/rubber dome keyboards lack (which are nearly all standard office keyboards). They give you more tactile feedback when you type which may lead to faster typing. Are they better than a cheapo keyboard? That depends. They're louder than your cheapo keyboards. Especially Cherry Blue switches, which is why most users would not recommend Cherry Blue keys anywhere near a non-isolated office space. I feel the difference between my mechanical keyboard at home compared to my membranes at work or the scissor-switches on laptops.

Anyone own the Deathadder (Chroma version, if it makes a difference) or the MX Master? My own BestBuy is out of MX Masters currently (not even a spot for them any more) so I couldn't directly compare.

The MX Master is a new mouse so I doubt many people have it yet. And yes, Razor products have an issue with longevity as Mike and myself have discussed a few posts up. It's hit-or-miss build quality with current Razor products. You can try a Deathadder and see if you hand likes it. Sometimes, you just have to try a mouse for a while. That's what happened when I tried a Logitech G502. I tried it for a week and couldn't work with the small size.

[David Hingtgen]

I consider like 95% of mice "small". And I don't have ginormous hands or anything. I liked MS's "Comfort Mouse 3000" so much I bought extras, and still have one MIB! (only, their rubber-coated scrollwheels are starting to decompose through sheer age---the MIB one still seems fine, but I figure that actually using it may cause "hyper-accelerated aging" or something)

But, I figure I should actually get a new mouse at some point, rather than than just keep going through my spare MS mice (as this'd be the last one).

[mikeszekely]

I consider like 95% of mice "small". And I don't have ginormous hands or anything. I liked MS's "Comfort Mouse 3000" so much I bought extras, and still have one MIB! (only, their rubber-coated scrollwheels are starting to decompose through sheer age---the MIB one still seems fine, but I figure that actually using it may cause "hyper-accelerated aging" or something)

But, I figure I should actually get a new mouse at some point, rather than than just keep going through my spare MS mice (as this'd be the last one).

I can't say I've used that mouse to compare it with, but I've used Logitech's Performance Mouse MX and G700 mice (the G700s on display at my Best Buy is identical, save for a textured pattern on the G700s). The Deathadder is lighter than both of the Logitech mice. It's slightly narrower and about as long as the G700, but it has much better ergonomics that make it feel just as wide (if not wider) and longer. The surface is smooth, and the thumb buttons are nearly flush but at the same time are easy to find by feel. The curve makes it very natural to hit the forward thumb button with the tip of the thumb, and the rear one with the joint. Under the thumb buttons and on the bottom right edge the Deathadder has a textured, rubbery material that provides grip for lifting the mouse.

Honestly, more than keyboards, I feel comfortable recommending the Deathadder to you, David. I really do like the design. Longevity might be a roll of the dice, but roll the dice with me on this one.

Besides... purple.

(If that's not a blue enough purple, you can customize the crap out of it with Synapse... also, I think it looks brighter than it really is in this pic, because it's a crappy cell phone pick and my phone's camera can't figure out what to make of a purple light on a matte black surface.)

[David Hingtgen]

The MX Master felt similar to the Performance MX, but even better IMHO. The main difference I feel is that the MX ones are "taller" and the Deathadder is "flatter"---and my beloved Comfort Mouse 3000 is kinda inbetween those two, but probably closer to the Deathadder. Also, the MX ones have "under-thumb" projections, the Deathadder is "open". That aspect is one I'm not sure if I'd like more or less than my current setup. (a hybrid of the two MX's would be perfect, but that doesn't exist---yet)

Current mouse (have gone through several):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105189

I'm sure the Deathadder is "close enough" in shape that I'd feel "at home" with it long-term (it felt good for the 10 secs I tried at BestBuy). I guess the real question is----is an MX mouse "even better"? $100 is a lot to "try out" its under-thumb rest and thumb-wheel.

And of course---seeing the Deathadder glow purple in the store was a big selling point. (as my new PC is purple, as much as possible---considered an RGB keyboard to get a match, but not ready to spend the better part of $200 to get that effect, especially as I'd spend 5 years fiddling with the settings)

[mikeszekely]

The MX Master felt similar to the Performance MX, but even better IMHO. The main difference I feel is that the MX ones are "taller" and the Deathadder is "flatter"---and my beloved Comfort Mouse 3000 is kinda inbetween those two, but probably closer to the Deathadder. Also, the MX ones have "under-thumb" projections, the Deathadder is "open". That aspect is one I'm not sure if I'd like more or less than my current setup. (a hybrid of the two MX's would be perfect, but that doesn't exist---yet)

Current mouse (have gone through several):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16826105189

I'm sure the Deathadder is "close enough" in shape that I'd feel "at home" with it long-term (it felt good for the 10 secs I tried at BestBuy). I guess the real question is----is an MX mouse "even better"? $100 is a lot to "try out" its under-thumb rest and thumb-wheel.

And of course---seeing the Deathadder glow purple in the store was a big selling point. (as my new PC is purple, as much as possible---considered an RGB keyboard to get a match, but not ready to spend the better part of $200 to get that effect, especially as I'd spend 5 years fiddling with the settings)

I used the Performance Mouse MX a long time, and I think the thumb lip on it was really too much. The G700 has one too, but it's less pronounced. Both are much more humped than the Deathadder, which might be fine for "claw" style mousers, but I really have to say that I prefer the ergonomics of the Deathadder a lot more, and I really don't miss the thumb lip at all. I haven't tried the MX Master, but the ergonomics don't appear all that different from the previous MX or the G700, and that thumb wheel in front of the thumb buttons, combined with the way the thumb buttons are arranged, are a turn off (at least for me). Honestly I'd say you're probably better off with a Deathadder Chroma. It's like half the price, and if you change our mind (or it craps out on your) you could always get an MX Master later, when the price has dropped or retailers regularly run it below MSRP.

Oh, and if you get a Blackwidow Chroma keyboard, once you've found the purple you like you can save it in Synapse as a custom color, then apply it to all of your Chroma devices.

[azrael]

Like I said, just try the Deathadder for a week.

[barurutor]

Anyone have keyboard suggestions? Very tempted by mechanical ones. (have pretty much already decided that if I go mechanical, it will be Cherry Brown switches).

Info:

Currently using Eclipse II.

I despise extra keys on the sides, so that eliminates most "gaming" keyboards.

I also require a numeric pad etc, which eliminates the other end of the spectrum of gaming ones.

Not surprisingly, I also demand a totally standard keyboard layout---a LOT of boards do weird things with Esc, Bkspce, \, and others when you really look close.

In short---any "cheap" boards worth looking at? Or should I just go all out and get a Corsair K70 etc?"

Try the newegg house brand rosewill RK9000V2 - a no-frills mechanical keyboard without much bling.

http://techreport.com/review/28087/rosewill-rk-9000v2-mechanical-keyboard-reviewed

Edited April 21, 2015 by barurutor

[David Hingtgen]

That looks good, but the reported "eye-searingly bright" blue LED's are basically a deal-killer. I want anything but blue for my new PC, and I hate uber-bright LED indicators in all things.

Mini-rant:

Yes, LED tech has advanced over the years, but there is no need for indicator lights to be "the brightest LED known to man"---yet they often are. 10 years from now, when LEDs are even brighter---you're going to go blind just from turning your TV on, because the LED will be THAT BRIGHT.

Indicator lights don't need to, and shouldn't, light up the room etc. Only flashlights and headlights need that kind of power.

[frothymug]

What's the difference between Cherry red, blue, brown, etc? One post mentioned blue is louder than the others?

[JB0]

What's the difference between Cherry red, blue, brown, etc? One post mentioned blue is louder than the others?

Cherry MX is the switch name. Cherry's the manufacturer, their keyboard microswitches are their MX line.

Reds are lightly-tensioned, and provide an even force all the way through their key travel. They are considered "gaming switches" because of their light touch. They can be hard on your fingers for typing, because they bottom out easily due to the light tension.

Browns are a little stiffer, and have a bump on the side so you can feel when the switch makes before it bottoms out. They're considered a jack-of-all-trade switch. Light enough for gaming, firm enough for typing.

Blues are designed to emulate the classic IBM keyboard feel. They're stiff, and let loose a nice big CLACK when they make(due to an additional component). NOT for a shared room.

Blacks are an odd duck. They're even stiffer, were designed for limited use cases where very high resistance was desirable(like space bars). Some people wanted an entire keyboard of blacks, so those are a thing now.

[azrael]

There are other Cherry MX keys (Clear, Green, Grey, White, etc), but those are less common and harder to find in keyboards. Reds, Blues, Browns and Blacks are the mains.

I've heard Blues and Blacks can be tiresome on the fingers during long usage due to the higher force needed to depress the keys.

There are sampler kits for the keys but they only give you one key/switch and you will likely need full keyboard to try it out. I would recommend actually trying out a full keyboard with the switch of choice to know if you will like it. Browns are the safe choice for most users. But definitely find a store where you can try a full keyboard.

[mikeszekely]

Does anyone here have a OnePlus One? It turns out that they stopped requiring invites right around the time I need a new phone without either renewing my contract or doing one of those "get a new phone and make payments on it FOREVER!" plans my carrier is pushing these days. The OnePlus One looks like an insanely good deal ($349 for an Android phone with a 5.5" screen, 3GB of RAM, and 64GB of storage seems more than reasonable, even if the Snapdragon CPU isn't the latest and greatest anymore). I'm kind of worried, though... small company, customized Android from a company that isn't getting alone with OnePlus anymore...