The computer and electronics super geek thread

[azrael]

11 hours ago, jenius said:

Not true stress testing yet but it seems I may have extended the life of my 1060 a bit longer. Now to decide if I should return the 3050...

Upgrade to the 3050 and keep the 1060 as a troubleshooting card? 🤷‍♂️

4080 12GB 4070Ti reviews are out...and there are no Founders Ed. cards out so all the AIBs cards are out and being priced above $799...🤦‍♂️ Don't know what benchmarks Nvidia was pulling out of its ass but it's not 3x better than a 3090Ti. Performance and power averages place it somewhere in between the 3080 Ti and the 3090 Ti but with a near 3080Ti price tag. It's pricing position puts it in the odd-man-out situation. Pay a little more and get a last-gen card for equal or cheaper, or spring for a 7900 XT/XTX.

[azrael]

Intel announced their laptop 13th gen CPUs on Tuesday along with some low end desktop SKUs. AMD's turn was earlier today and they announced the 3D VCache versions of the 7000 series. 7800X3D, 7900X3D, and 7950X3D. The 5800X3D is going to be a tough act to follow considering how much of an uplift it was when it came out (and still is a good value even when compared to AMD's own 7000-series Ryzen). AMD also announced their 7000-series non-X and laptop CPUs. I heard AMD's previous laptop CPUs performed well and were well worth the money...if you could get one. 🤷‍♂️

[mikeszekely]

Caught some benchmarks for the RTX 4070 Ti.  And... I dunno.  Performance seems similar to the 3090 Ti, and it costs about the same as a 3090 Ti.  Seems to perform a little better than the 7900 XT, and it seems to cost a little more than the 7900 XT.  So... it's fine?  I guess?  Although maybe the 7900 XTX is a better bang for your buck, assuming you're not super concerned with power draw or ray tracing (or melting GPU connectors).  Or you could spend a little more and get an RTX 4080.  But I think Linus over at LMG made a good point when he was comparing the price of the RTX 4070 Ti with the 3070 Ti.  Like, this is the 70-level card- if you wanted to pay 3090 Ti prices for 3090 Ti performance, you probably already bought a 3090 Ti.  Crypto crashed, the most popular GPU (according to Steam) is the GTX 1650, GPU sales are down to a 20-year low, and there's an argument to be had that GPU prices are simply too high across the board right now.  And that's sort of where I'm landing... I think tech like DLSS/FidelityFX and ray tracing can make a big difference, but maybe we're not there yet.  So, while I'm currently on an RTX 2080 and usually like to upgrade every other generation, I think I'm going to sit out an extra generation and maybe see what's cooking when we get to the RTX 5000/AMD 8000 series.

[jenius]

I agree with that logic, it seems like market forces need to prevail. With a huge drop in demand and the industry that caused the spike potentially dead, we should see prices get more reasonable next year. It's like the housing market, it will take six months, but a correction is the only thing that makes sense.

[JB0]

I really hope the buttcoin market's collapsed for good this time. But I expect another mania-fueled surge to rear it's ugly head again.

[mikeszekely]

So, the ROG Ally... when I first heard about it I was thinking that it's nice that a bigger company like ASUS was entering a market that has belonged to companies like Aya Neo and GPD, but with their performance claims I fully expected it'd be over $1000 and I'd be perfectly content with my Steam Deck.  Because, when Steam Deck is good it's great!  I was concerned when only around a quarter of my Steam library had that coveted green "Verified" checkmark, but it turns out that most of my games have the yellow "i", which basically means, "also plays just fine."  What's more, even a few with the "unsupported" badge actually will load and run.  But more than supporting more games than I thought, what Valve really nailed was the OS.  Yes, Steam OS is Linux, and yes, you can put it in desktop mode and use the Steam Deck like a little Linux PC.  But in its normal operation Steam OS on the Steam Deck does an amazing job of behaving like a console OS.

But yeah, the Ally.  ASUS announced that it's coming in at $700, or $50 more than the Steam Deck with the same level of storage.  Shots fired, that's pretty aggressive.  The thing here is that Windows is going to be a double-edged sword for them.  ASUS could improve their Armory Crate software to hide Windows behind a console-like front end, but from my experience with their Armory Crate software that runs the RGB on my desktop I wouldn't hold my breath... ASUS is a hardware company, not a software one.  And from everything I've seen and read Windows is still gonna Windows, and until Microsoft does something about it at the base OS level you're just never going to have the same sort of fluid experience on a Windows handheld that you will on the Steam Deck.

But at the same time, for all the accolades Valve deserves for bringing PC gaming to Linux, PC gaming is still ultimately the domain of Windows, and so the Ally's biggest weakness is also it's biggest strength.  I mean, yes, Steam is my first choice for PC games, and as of this writing I've got around 500 games in my Steam library.  But, when Ubisoft started requiring Uplay even for stuff you bought on Steam I started omitting that Steam middleman, that's 55 games that aren't in my Steam library.  EA didn't just require Origin, they tried to cut out Steam on their end... that's another 57 games.  Amazon buys Twitch, and as a Prime member I can start claiming free games.  That adds up over time... to about 250-ish games in my Amazon Games library.  The overload of launchers was starting to get to me so I actually held off on Epic Games for a long time, but eventually they had a freebie I couldn't resist, and now I'm up to around 50 there.  And that's without mentioning GOG, or Microsoft's PC Game Pass.  These are options that, at best, are a huge hassle to get working on the Steam Deck, and at worst simply don't work on the Steam Deck.  Speaking of not working, there's that little fact that even though I can easily get an unverified game like the Mega Man X Collection running on the Steam Deck, there's still some that just won't work.  Or games that, even running on 720p low, are still more than the Steam Deck can handle (yes, I want to play Jedi Survivor while waiting at my daughter's dance class, and yes, I know it's having trouble running on even well-equipped desktops, but last I checked there's been four patches and some improvement on desktops but is still falling under 20fps on Steam Deck).

I dunno.  I'd say I'm generally happy with my Steam Deck.  I wasn't playing it thinking, "if only it had a little more power so it could run such-and-such" or "Valve needs to get cracking on a Steam Deck 2" or anything like that.  And yet, ASUS basically rolled up, opened its coat, and said, "hey kid, more power and it'll run your non-Steam stuff, only $700."  And I'm thinking, yeah, I might give them my money...

[azrael]

Besides hardware and brand recognition, Asus is certainly dipping their toes in uncharted territory here. We'll see in June if the ROG Ally is a competitive to the SteamDeck. Yeah, the hardware looks impressive but yeah, Windows....But if anyone wants a portable gaming/mini PC, the Ally definitely looks better than the Ayaneo. It just lacks the library of Steam. 🤔

[JB0]

It's kind of bad timing, given Asus is currently trying to redirect bad press from "our ROG motherboards are making brand-new Ryzen processors literally explode" ... and then managing to generate even more bad press in the process by telling people to install beta BIOS updates that void your warranty.

[pengbuzz]

6 hours ago, JB0 said:

It's kind of bad timing, given Asus is currently trying to redirect bad press from "our ROG motherboards are making brand-new Ryzen processors literally explode" ... and then managing to generate even more bad press in the process by telling people to install beta BIOS updates that void your warranty.

*wonders if people running ASUS had a mass lobotomy or something...*

Edited May 12, 2023 by pengbuzz

[azrael]

It’s likely 2 different units, the motherboard and integrated devices (laptop?) groups.

I’m just in awe over the audacity and stupidity of releasing a beta UEFI update, which contains a “for internal testing and validation-only”-AGESA fix, then voiding warranties. Who’s bright idea was it to release it in the first place????

[pengbuzz]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:32 PM, azrael said:

It’s likely 2 different units, the motherboard and integrated devices (laptop?) groups.

I’m just in awe over the audacity and stupidity of releasing a beta UEFI update, which contains a “for internal testing and validation-only”-AGESA fix, then voiding warranties. Who’s bright idea was it to release it in the first place????

The same geniuses who brought us the Pet Rock ™?

[mikeszekely]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:32 PM, azrael said:

It’s likely 2 different units, the motherboard and integrated devices (laptop?) groups.

I’m just in awe over the audacity and stupidity of releasing a beta UEFI update, which contains a “for internal testing and validation-only”-AGESA fix, then voiding warranties. Who’s bright idea was it to release it in the first place????

I'm not defending any of decisions that lead to the issues that got them in this mess in the first place, mind you, but they've gone on record as saying that stuff about the warranty is the usual boilerplate text they put on all their beta firmware and that they're still providing warranty coverage for any affected boards even if you do apply this firmware.  I think the bigger issue is that the firmware is supposed to correct the issue by limiting the voltage on those pins to 1.3 volts, and testing has shown that the voltage can still get higher than 1.3 volts even after applying the firmware.

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I'm not defending any of decisions that lead to the issues that got them in this mess in the first place, mind you, but they've gone on record as saying that stuff about the warranty is the usual boilerplate text they put on all their beta firmware and that they're still providing warranty coverage for any affected boards even if you do apply this firmware.  I think the bigger issue is that the firmware is supposed to correct the issue by limiting the voltage on those pins to 1.3 volts, and testing has shown that the voltage can still get higher than 1.3 volts even after applying the firmware.

Sounds to me that whoever is writing the code for the firmware didn't check thoroughly enough that it would keep the voltage to 1.3v. Either a mistake in the code spelling or it isn't applied properly I would imagine. You'd think after compiling it that they would have done extensive tests.

[azrael]

17 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Sounds to me that whoever is writing the code for the firmware didn't check thoroughly enough that it would keep the voltage to 1.3v. Either a mistake in the code spelling or it isn't applied properly I would imagine. You'd think after compiling it that they would have done extensive tests.

The problem is, if you close off all the places in the firmware where the voltage can be adjusted, you limit what can be done on the board, essentially crippling the product.  

[azrael]

Right on the heels of Computex, reviews are up for the "budget" cards, RTX 4060/4060Ti and the RX 7600.

Response is the same, too much money for too little performance gains. 8GB of VRAM just isn't enough. The 16GB RTX 4060Ti is priced way too high for a "budget" pick at $500. The 8GB 4060/4060Ti just feel too underwhelming and you are better off with a RX 6700XT or, worst yet, getting a Arc 770. The RX 7600 is just crippled on 8GB making the price drop to $270 still not worth it, making the 12GB of VRAM on the 6700XT a better value proposition. Keeping what you have if you are in the RTX 3000-series or RX 6000-series families seems to be the best option. Upgrading to the RTX 4000 and RX 7000-famlies just doesn't feel worth it.

Rant
I've been hearing this as the new problem of 2023; VRAM sizes need to be scaled up thanks to the new games. Last of Us Part 1:Remastered eats up 12GB of VRAM if you want the best experience. Almost all titles of 2023 are pushing that 8GB on cards. Game devs are complaining 8GB VRAM sizes are not enough. PS5 and Xbox S/X already increased their VRAM. PC GPUs still hover at 8GB. Consoles have outpaced GPU makers. Oh but the Steam survey shows most people only using GPUs with 8GB. That's cuz a GPU costs the same frakin' amount as a console. People are not gonna swap out their GPUs every year at that price nor are they going to buy more if YOU KEEP RAISING THE PRICE.🤬 What about Resizable BAR? NOT EVERYONE SUPPORTS IT. 🤬 PCs do not see a consistent upgrade cycle. Some people still rock a computer 5+ years old. Any upgrades would only be to smaller stuff. If buying off the refurbished/secondary market has a better value proposition than buying new, companies need to really rethink pricing.

[mikeszekely]

13 minutes ago, azrael said:

That's cuz a GPU costs the same frakin' amount as a console.

I wish a GPU cost the same as a console.  For me to really upgrade from my 2080 on actual performance and not simply more ray tracing or more frames through DLSS it's more like two consoles.  I'd need practically the entire budget from my last PC just for a GPU.

[azrael]

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I wish a GPU cost the same as a console.

OK, the budget cards are in the same cost bracket as consoles (portable & living room). The mid and high-ends costs 2-4 consoles...Same issue. No one can afford these "upgrades".

And Nvidia's (and AMD) push for DLSS/frame generation only gives them an excuse to mask their performance. It makes sense on portables, but not on machines that can actually render those pixels.

[David Hingtgen]

Decided it's definitely time to upgrade my GPU---anyone have one for sale? I currently have a pre-COVID 1080, so most anything would be an upgrade.  

Or I may just buy say a 3060 12gb new, locally, so I could enjoy it over the 3-day weekend...  

[azrael]

11 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Decided it's definitely time to upgrade my GPU---anyone have one for sale?

Define "sale" for a GPU?

11 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Or I may just buy say a 3060 12gb new, locally, so I could enjoy it over the 3-day weekend...  

That's probably the best call. At this point, avoid the 4060 8GB model. It's just a waste of money at 8GB VRAM.

[TangledThorns]

1 hour ago, azrael said:

Define "sale" for a GPU?

That's probably the best call. At this point, avoid the 4060 8GB model. It's just a waste of money at 8GB VRAM.

I'm still using my RTX 2060 from 2019 and will keep it another year since the 4060 is disappointing and I play on a budget. So instead I'll just buy a gaming laptop with a hopefully good RTX 50xx next year since I'm traveling more and it would be nice to game on the go.

[David Hingtgen]

I ended up buying a 3060 12GB, and have spent the past couple days trying/tweaking settings in programs to try to dial in "perfection".   (I am pretty obsessive with getting my PC to run as best it possibly can).   

If anyone's interested a used but mint 1080 FTW2, let me know.  

[azrael]

Awww shucks.

Intel kills its NUC line, but the tiny PC will live on

It's actually interesting to see how much power one could cram into the tiny PC space. At least Minisforum, Beelink and the bigger brands are still putting out units.

[kajnrig]

Oh okay, so it's not stopping third parties from jamming its mobile CPUs into teeny tiny desktop PCs, it just isn't doing so itself anymore. Seems fair. I wonder if companies will continue with its PCIe riser card-style NUCs that allow for dGPUs or go back to the traditional small ones that can be mounted onto the back of a monitor.

[mikeszekely]

19 minutes ago, azrael said:

Awww shucks.

Intel kills its NUC line, but the tiny PC will live on

It's actually interesting to see how much power one could cram into the tiny PC space. At least Minisforum, Beelink and the bigger brands are still putting out units.

I used a Beelink SER5 to build a Batocera box for a buddy of mine.  Good stuff.

Personally, I always thought of Intel's own NUC line as being a bit too much.  Sure, they often had specs that outperformed a lot of the competing small form factor PCs on the market, but at some point you have to stop and ask "who is this for?"  A little box for grandma to do emails (assuming grandma doesn't want a laptop for some reason), an HTPC, or a box for retro gaming doesn't always need the kind of hardware Intel was using, while creative professionals and PC gamers who are more inclined to spend more on hardware were probably spending it on hardware with a bigger discrete GPU.

[azrael]

3 hours ago, kajnrig said:

Oh okay, so it's not stopping third parties from jamming its mobile CPUs into teeny tiny desktop PCs, it just isn't doing so itself anymore. Seems fair. I wonder if companies will continue with its PCIe riser card-style NUCs that allow for dGPUs or go back to the traditional small ones that can be mounted onto the back of a monitor.

Probably not. Most mini PC makers are leaning more toward the complete package vs the slotted computing unit.

[David Hingtgen]

Suggestions for a new SSD as my OS drive? Currently have a 960 EVO , 250GB.  Definitely want 500, maybe 1TB if not too much more money.  

I see that Best Buy has 870's cheap, but "SSD specs" are hard to parse--is it an upgrade or a downgrade? 70 vs 60, vs 800/900, evo vs regular/pro...

Vs a flagship 990 Pro or something   

::edit:: Gah, mobo only has 1 M.2 slot and it's being used by the storage drive---I don't think there's a SATA version of the 990.   So the question really is---for those of us stuck using SATA, best bang for the buck SSD?
 

[azrael]

3 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Suggestions for a new SSD as my OS drive? Currently have a 960 EVO , 250GB.  Definitely want 500, maybe 1TB if not too much more money.  

I see that Best Buy has 870's cheap, but "SSD specs" are hard to parse--is it an upgrade or a downgrade? 70 vs 60, vs 800/900, evo vs regular/pro...

Vs a flagship 990 Pro or something   

::edit:: Gah, mobo only has 1 M.2 slot and it's being used by the storage drive---I don't think there's a SATA version of the 990.   So the question really is---for those of us stuck using SATA, best bang for the buck SSD?

You could try cloning the drives to reflect a better layout (i.e. clone your M.2 drive to a SATA and vice versa to make your M.2 drive as your OS drive).

I'd avoid the PCIE Gen 5 drives unless you know your mobo can handle it. Also, many Gen 5 drives come with heatsinks attached so there may be a clearance issue. Gen 5 drives can hit 10 GB/sec reads and near 9.5 GB/sec writes so they can generate a lot of heat. Gen 4 speeds are good enough for most people and most tasks.

For OS, a 1TB offers the best size to cost. If you have to go lower, 500/512GB is the smallest size I'd go these days.

Since SSDs go on sale quite often, it's hard to judge but my picks for a drive are (in no particular order):
Crucial P5
Samsung 980 Pro/EVO
WD Black SN850X/SN770
Sabrent Rocket

For SATA
Crucial MX500/BX500
Samsung 870 Pro/EVO
Seagate Barracuda

For storage drives, I lean toward greater capacity vs cost, even at the cost of speed.
Crucial P2/MX500/BX500
Samsung EVO/QVO
WD Black SN770/Blue SA510
Sabrent Rocket
Seagate Ironwolf
Leven JS600

[David Hingtgen]

I have considered that----buying a new SATA drive to become my storage drive, and using my current storage drive (M.2 970) as OS.  

Hmmm.  I'd probably be buying a 1 or 2 TB Sata 870 either way... (available locally)

::edit:: Hmmmn, PNY CS900 is also locally available and cheap.  If only being used for storage...

[azrael]

The PNY CS900 seems like a good choice for storage. ‘Never used one so I have no basis for comparison. 
Keep in mind cheap usually means it lacks DRAM cache. That’s fine for a storage drive, but you’ll see some difference if used for a OS/boot drive.

[TangledThorns]

22 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Suggestions for a new SSD as my OS drive? Currently have a 960 EVO , 250GB.  Definitely want 500, maybe 1TB if not too much more money.  

I see that Best Buy has 870's cheap, but "SSD specs" are hard to parse--is it an upgrade or a downgrade? 70 vs 60, vs 800/900, evo vs regular/pro...

Vs a flagship 990 Pro or something   

::edit:: Gah, mobo only has 1 M.2 slot and it's being used by the storage drive---I don't think there's a SATA version of the 990.   So the question really is---for those of us stuck using SATA, best bang for the buck SSD?
 

 

Definitely 1TB minimum if you're PC gaming. SSD prices are coming down, finally. Shop around.

EDIT: I was curious as to prices and found Samsung 970 1Tb for $50. That's amazing!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MFZY2F2?tag=slickdeals&ascsubtag=5574d3302a1d11eead76728b6ce44b6a0INT&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by TangledThorns

[David Hingtgen]

I have decided to "rearrange/reinstall" everything" and buy a new larger 970 EVO as my boot drive, and put like half my storage on it as well.  

(mobo can't do gen4 PCI so little point in a 980)

[seti88]

I have stopped upgrading my PC ages back. But then i see this. And it makes me itch to get a PC sufficiently ready for it.

 

Cant even fathom the PC specs needed to run it..

and also a superb monitor and sound system to go with it...

Edited August 27, 2023 by seti88

[azrael]

20 hours ago, seti88 said:

I have stopped upgrading my PC ages back. But then i see this. And it makes me itch to get a PC sufficiently ready for it.

Cant even fathom the PC specs needed to run it..

and also a superb monitor and sound system to go with it...

Minimum specs:

Quote

    OS: Windows 10 64-bit
    Processor (AMD): AMD Ryzen 7 2700X or Equivalent
    Processor (Intel): Intel Core i7 8700 or Equivalent
    Memory: 12 GB
    Graphics card (AMD): AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT or Equivalent
    Graphics card (NVIDIA): NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 or Equivalent
    DirectX: DX12 Compatible video card or equivalent
    Storage: 200GB

Recommended specs:

Quote

    OS: Windows 10 64-bit
    Processor (AMD): AMD Ryzen 5 3600X or Equivalent
    Processor (Intel): Intel i5-10600K or Equivalent
    Memory: 16 GB
    Graphics card (AMD): AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT or Equivalent
    Graphics card (NVIDIA): NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 or Equivalent
    DirectX: DX12 Compatible video card or equivalent
    Storage: 200GB

Overall, not that bad. Basically any computer built in the past 5-6 years should run it with graphics being the pain point. If you can find a deal on any Nvidia RTX 3000-series or AMD RX 6000-series cards, those would last you. AMD graphics might be a better choice only because they give you more VRAM for the money. If you want DLSS or RT features, then you would go with Nvidia.

Monitor? Depends. Audio setup? You mean headphones aren't enough? Most people game on headphones anyways.

[seti88]

3 hours ago, azrael said:

Minimum specs:

Recommended specs:

Overall, not that bad. Basically any computer built in the past 5-6 years should run it with graphics being the pain point. If you can find a deal on any Nvidia RTX 3000-series or AMD RX 6000-series cards, those would last you. AMD graphics might be a better choice only because they give you more VRAM for the money. If you want DLDSS or RT features, then you would go with Nvidia.

Monitor? Depends. Audio setup? You mean headphones aren't enough? Most people game on headphones anyways.

Looking the amount of enemies on screen, plus all the specular lighting and what not effects, wondering more of an ultimate setup to run its maximum/ultra settings. 

Looks too good to run on just base/recommended.

On the audio side, I hate headphones. Over time i get a headache cos of the weight over few hours of gaming. I suppose age is catching up.
No to mention disintegration of rubber/foam support over time caused me to toss a many pairs over the years previously. 

Will see how this game fares further before attempting to upgrade/  get a new system.😅

 

 

[azrael]

6 hours ago, seti88 said:

Looking the amount of enemies on screen, plus all the specular lighting and what not effects, wondering more of an ultimate setup to run its maximum/ultra settings. 

Looks too good to run on just base/recommended.

Surprisingly, most games don't need THAT much horsepower and most systems made in the past 5-6 years are more than capable of doing what most games want to varying degrees.