The computer and electronics super geek thread

[mikeszekely]

29 minutes ago, azrael said:

How good is the MX Keys for gaming? Don't know.

The majority of PC gamers are going to say that it sucks for gaming because it's not a mechanical keyboard.  But I've yet to really hear a convincing argument as to why mechanical keyboards are superior*, and the fact remains that I still don't like typing on them.  It really seems to come down to a tactile feel, and it's hard to describe what feels right.  I want to say that why I like the keyboard built into my laptop is because the scissor switches have a crisp feel, almost like the actuator on a mechanical switch, but with low-profile chiclet keys and a very short throw.  And my complaint with the desktop keyboards is that they seem to have the short throw down, but they're mushy as they bottom out and lack the crispness that I'm looking for.

Ultimately I think you're right, and I'm just going to have to go to a store.  And around here that's pretty much Best Buy (closest Micro Center is a three-hour drive).  Whenever they actually reopen (our governor says we can move from red to yellow next week, but I have no idea if that means Best Buy can reopen or not).

*OK, did a lot of late-night reading, and it seems a lot of the prejudice against non-mechanical keyboards isn't that they are superior, it's that they were superior.  Basically, because mechanical switches didn't need to be pressed down as far as rubber domes something like 20 years ago and they provided a tactile click to let you know when they were actuated vs bottoming them out to be sure you could type faster on them.  That advantage seems negated, as a good scissor switch on a chiclet keyboard will have a shorter throw even if you do bottom it out.  PS/2 mechanical keyboards could register as many keys as you could mash at once, USB mechanicals at the time could do around six-key rollover, and membrane keyboards were doing two.  But again, that's just not true anymore.  The Deathstalker I'm using has 10-key rollover.  The only true advantage mechanical keyboards seem to have is longevity, as rubber domes last for around 10 million clicks but a good mechanical switch should last for 50 million.  But the rest really seems to come down to feel.  Now, I'm not going to begrudge anyone for telling me they prefer the feel of a mechanical, but they don't feel right to me.  And I'd rather replace my keyboard sooner (10 million clicks should still last for years) than keep one I hate for longer.

Edited May 9, 2020 by mikeszekely

[JB0]

38 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

That advantage seems negated, as a good scissor switch on a chiclet keyboard will have a shorter throw even if you do bottom it out. 

It isn't negated, because not bottoming out is actually the whole point of that argument. It isn't about short-throw, it is about not mashing your fingertips into the backside of the keyboard. Dome switches, even scissor-style ones, require bottoming out to actuate.

On the other hand, rubber domes have a rubber cushion to soften that impact. Most other switch types hit rather hard when they bottom out. So... win some, lose some.

[azrael]

28 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

The majority of PC gamers are going to say that it sucks for gaming because it's not a mechanical keyboard.  But I've yet to really hear a convincing argument as to why mechanical keyboards are superior, and the fact remains that I still don't like typing on them.  It really seems to come down to a tactile feel, and it's hard to describe what feels right.  I want to say that why I like the keyboard built into my laptop is because the scissor switches have a crisp feel, almost like the actuator on a mechanical switch, but with low-profile chiclet keys and a very short throw.  And my complaint with the desktop keyboards is that they seem to have the short throw down, but they're mushy as they bottom out and lack the crispness that I'm looking for.

Ultimately I think you're right, and I'm just going to have to go to a store.  And around here that's pretty much Best Buy (closest Micro Center is a three-hour drive).  Whenever they actually reopen (our governor says we can move from red to yellow next week, but I have no idea if that means Best Buy can reopen or not).

I would think the wireless of a MX Keys would be a bigger factor than the actual key mechanism. I use to game on a K350 and had no issues.
That mushy-ness is because of the membrane/rubber-dome. Yes it makes for quieter keystroke and is better for the office. You still have to bottom out the key but there's padding when you bottom out.

Me? It took me a while but I found out my key of choice is a MX Brown switch. After my K350, I first tried a Logitech G 900-something keyboard and hated that thing. Then I tried a MS Sidewinder(?) keyboard with membrane switches and was low-profile. Hated it. Sent it back in under a week. Then I tried a MX Brown mechanical and felt good with it until a light went out. Then I moved to a MX Red. Hated it. I can see why twitch gamers like it but since I type more, that one didn't last long. MX Reds are not for typists. Been on a Roccat Vulcan and their Brown-switch since then.

[mikeszekely]

3 minutes ago, JB0 said:

It isn't negated, because not bottoming out is actually the whole point of that argument. It isn't about short-throw, it is about not mashing your fingertips into the backside of the keyboard. Dome switches, even scissor-style ones, require bottoming out to actuate.

But short throw due to not bottoming out is what gave mechanicals the speed advantage.  The speed advantage is negated because bottoming out a scissor switch is still a shorter throw than just actuating like 95% of the mechanical switches out there.

Yes, you could make an argument that not having to bottom out is an advantage, but one related to feel not speed, and feeling is still subjective.  Especially if you're a heavy-handed typist like I am who's going to bottom out the switch no matter what.

3 minutes ago, azrael said:

Me? It took me a while but I found out my key of choice is a MX Brown switch. After my K350, I first tried a Logitech G 900-something keyboard and hated that thing. Then I tried a MS Sidewinder(?) keyboard with membrane switches and was low-profile. Hated it. Sent it back in under a week. Then I tried a MX Brown mechanical and felt good with it until a light went out. Then I moved to a MX Red. Hated it. I can see why twitch gamers like it but since I type more, that one didn't last long. MX Reds are not for typists. Been on a Roccat Vulcan and their Brown-switch since then.

The problem I have with mechanicals, like I just said, is that I'm a heavy-handed typist.  Granted, I've only tried a few mechanical keyboards so I'm sure there are switches out there I haven't tried and there's probably still a possibility that I'll find one that this doesn't apply to, but for now I'll say that every keyboard I've ever typed on I've bottomed out.  The way I learned to type (which at least taught me to touch type) back in the late '80s had me bottoming out the Macintosh IIs we used in school at the time.  I actually do like the crisp feeling of many mechanical keyboards.  However, the click of a switch might be the thing that's supposed to tell me to stop pushing, but muscle memory tells me to keep going until I hit the bottom. So I just can't get a short enough throw on anything that isn't a low-profile chiclet.

I guess, at the risk of sounding totally insane, I'm looking for scissor switch that has crisp motion like a mechanical that bottoms out solidly and bounces back quickly.  I don't want something that feels floaty while I'm pushing and bottoms out into cake.

[Archer]

When do y'all see nVidia dropping the (G/R)TX 3000 series? With the PS5 and XSX dropping likely at the end of this year, and games of increasing fidelity starting to come out, I honestly can't see my 1080 Ti keeping up as well as it has in the past. I play at 32:9 1440p, which is just shy of 4k in terms of pixel count, so I need all the headroom I can get. 

[JB0]

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

But short throw due to not bottoming out is what gave mechanicals the speed advantage.  The speed advantage is negated because bottoming out a scissor switch is still a shorter throw than just actuating like 95% of the mechanical switches out there.

Yes, you could make an argument that not having to bottom out is an advantage, but one related to feel not speed, and feeling is still subjective.  Especially if you're a heavy-handed typist like I am who's going to bottom out the switch no matter what.

Ah, well... I've never taken any speed claims seriously. It is still gaming using a text entry device.

The argument I'd seen was that it prevented long-term fatigue.

 

The last rubber dome keyboard I used willingly was a Saitek Eclipse II(I still use it occasionally). It had pretty nice domes. I don't think they make it anymore, with the entire brand having been flipped twice since then and almost completely retired after Logitech's purchase. I doubt Logitech thought they needed ANOTHER keyboard in a crowded market segment.

 

 

(Entirely tangentally, I hate the term "mechanical keyboard". Rubber dome switches are still mechanical. Hell, rubber domes are MORE mechanical than some of the "mechanical" switches that use capacitance, hall effect, or frickin' lasers! I am aware I will NEVER change the opinion of the internet at large, but dammit I am gonna vent about it.)

[mikeszekely]

7 hours ago, Archer said:

When do y'all see nVidia dropping the (G/R)TX 3000 series? With the PS5 and XSX dropping likely at the end of this year, and games of increasing fidelity starting to come out, I honestly can't see my 1080 Ti keeping up as well as it has in the past. I play at 32:9 1440p, which is just shy of 4k in terms of pixel count, so I need all the headroom I can get. 

The rumor is that the 3080 could hit in August, then probably later in the fall or winter for the 70/60/50 etc.

[technoblue]

8 hours ago, JB0 said:

(Entirely tangentally, I hate the term "mechanical keyboard". Rubber dome switches are still mechanical. Hell, rubber domes are MORE mechanical than some of the "mechanical" switches that use capacitance, hall effect, or frickin' lasers! I am aware I will NEVER change the opinion of the internet at large, but dammit I am gonna vent about it.)

I would argue that one needs to look at the whole keyboard package. The keys are only part of the equation and, as you say, any keyboard could be seen as mechanical if we just look at the mechanisms to satisfy the definition of what's mechanical. 

A standard keyboard uses flexible membranes with rubber domes to create electrical connections. To actuate the rubber domes, the keys either fit onto plastic sliding mechanism or a scissor mechanism. These mechanisms are usually plastic, meaning that these keyboards are often cheaper than their "mechanical" counterparts. They can be quieter and can also be easier to type on. IMO, these are all potential positives.  The negatives are that keys can stick, rubber domes can wear out, and the membrane can be difficult to clean if dust or other funky business settles in under the keys. Something to be aware of I guess. 

A mechanical keyboard uses a hard PCB with connections soldered to spring-loaded or electro-capacitance switches. The key caps attach to these switches and some keyboards even let you hotswap different switches to find the configuration you're comfortable with. The spring-loaded types that are available include Cherry MX, Cherry knock-offs (like Razer, Kalih, and Logitech Romer-G). For electro-capacitance types, there is Topre, White Alps, and Varmilo (the downside is that these three are all very expensive). Many mechanical keyboards come with a keycap puller, so you can safely remove keycaps from a switch and clean the board underneath if things get funky. You can add custom keycaps to dress up your keyboard if you want to as well.

Both standard keyboards and mechanical keyboards offer backlit options now, so they are even in that sense. I do think standard keyboards have the edge on mechanical keyboards for wireless use. Only a few mechanical keyboards support wireless if that's your thing.

Edited May 9, 2020 by technoblue
a couple things

[azrael]

9 hours ago, Archer said:

When do y'all see nVidia dropping the (G/R)TX 3000 series? With the PS5 and XSX dropping likely at the end of this year, and games of increasing fidelity starting to come out, I honestly can't see my 1080 Ti keeping up as well as it has in the past. I play at 32:9 1440p, which is just shy of 4k in terms of pixel count, so I need all the headroom I can get. 

I would have expected the announcement around Computex (June) with the release during the summer. Given the circumstances, it's probably going to be a summer announcement and autumn release.

As much as it's time for a graphics upgrade, I'm interested to see what AMD's processors look like this year.

[mikeszekely]

40 minutes ago, azrael said:

I would have expected the announcement around Computex (June) with the release during the summer. Given the circumstances, it's probably going to be a summer announcement and autumn release.

As much as it's time for a graphics upgrade, I'm interested to see what AMD's processors look like this year.

I recently went from a GTX 970 to an RTX 2080, so I'll be sitting the new round of GPUs out.

As for AMD, I ran the free version of PCMark, and the Ryzen 4900HS in my new laptop beat the i7-9700K.  If AMD is bringing that kind of performance to their desktop chips (no reason to think they won't) and Intel doesn't wow with the 11th-gen Core i-whatever, I'll be switching to team red.

[JB0]

6 hours ago, technoblue said:

I would argue that one needs to look at the whole keyboard package. The keys are only part of the equation and, as you say, any keyboard could be seen as mechanical if we just look at the mechanisms to satisfy the definition of what's mechanical

My point wasn't that "mechanical" keyboards aren't nicer. It was that mechanical is a dumb label and we should aspire to better naming. Like premium, which actually has more meaning than mechanical in this context. 

 

[technoblue]

8 minutes ago, JB0 said:

My point wasn't that "mechanical" keyboards aren't nicer. It was that mechanical is a dumb label and we should aspire to better naming. Like premium, which actually has more meaning than mechanical in this context. 

Yeah, I understood that. I probably should have taken more time to word my opinion more carefully. The premium quality is certainly one factor, and that's the tl;dr gist to what I wrote above. However, thinking about it more, the mechanical key switches are one stand-out feature above the rest and maybe that's where the name comes from? Anyway, I could be wrong, but that's my reasoning. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just musing.

[JB0]

10 hours ago, technoblue said:

However, thinking about it more, the mechanical key switches are one stand-out feature above the rest and maybe that's where the name comes from? 

It is indeed the source of the name, and... a Cherry MX isn't really any more mechanical than a silicone dome, and both are arguably MORE mechanical than a Topre or Lightstrike(as the latter two don't make a mechanical connection to trigger the circuit). 

 

I hate marketing, basically.

[azrael]

Intel shows its cards this year with the release of Core i9-10900K, i7-10700K, i5-10600K. Still at 14nm and now sucking down more power now. Only marginally beating AMD here or there.

[mikeszekely]

I've been a supporter of Intel for a long time. I've had a first gen core i7, a third gen, and my current desktop is a 9700K. Every laptop I've owned prior to my current one had Intel CPUs.

But right now? I've got a laptop with a Ryzen and I love it. AMD had been better bang for your buck for years, but Intel won out on raw performance at the higher end. Now that gap is closing. Intel's 10th gen just isn't enough; if I were building a new PC right now it'd definitely be a Ryzen.

[Sanity is Optional]

...Meanwhile I went ATI for my graphics card for the first time ever, and am not going to do that again.

5700XT, but the drivers are garbage. Up to date but still getting driver crashes, audio over DisplayPort issues. At least the black screen flashes seem to have stopped for the moment.

Anyone considering ATI GPUs, do yourself a favor and don't.

[mikeszekely]

8 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

...Meanwhile I went ATI for my graphics card for the first time ever, and am not going to do that again.

5700XT, but the drivers are garbage. Up to date but still getting driver crashes, audio over DisplayPort issues. At least the black screen flashes seem to have stopped for the moment.

Anyone considering ATI GPUs, do yourself a favor and don't.

Yeah, I mean, I don't have any modern experience with their GPUs.  I mean, a long time ago the very first PC I bought after I got married and moved out of my parents' place was a Sony VAIO with Windows XP.  I was just starting to dabble with PC games, but the board in the PC used the short-lived AGP slot for graphics, and the very best card I could find with an AGP interface was a Radeon.  It still wasn't all that great, although I was able to manage to run FEAR on it, and yeah, I wasn't a fan of the driver software.

But since then I've used Nvidia cards in my computers and I've been quite satisfied.  I think the Radeon cards had the same "better bang for your buck" thing at the lower end that the AMD CPUs did, but at the higher ends Nvidia was crushing them.  I have no idea if that's still true or not today, but I've been following Nvidia long enough that I understand their numbering conventions and can tell at a glance what generation and how relatively powerful a given card is.  The Radeon model numbers don't mean anything to me, though, and I'm fine with Nvidia's performance and software, so I don't really give the Radeon cards a second thought. 

[David Hingtgen]

AGP!  I had one of those!  7600GT I think...

[azrael]

2 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

... since then I've used Nvidia cards in my computers and I've been quite satisfied.  I think the Radeon cards had the same "better bang for your buck" thing at the lower end that the AMD CPUs did, but at the higher ends Nvidia was crushing them.  I have no idea if that's still true or not today, but I've been following Nvidia long enough that I understand their numbering conventions and can tell at a glance what generation and how relatively powerful a given card is.  The Radeon model numbers don't mean anything to me, though, and I'm fine with Nvidia's performance and software, so I don't really give the Radeon cards a second thought. 

Nvidia has always held the crown on performance. Their problem is, due to their weird pricing, it’s now premium performance. RTX cards are not cheap. It’s not hurting Nvidia, but given the current climate, people are going to think twice once the sticker shock kicks in. Radeon is more worth it on the budget to mid-range. 
 

AMD’s next line of APUs have sparked my interest though. I’m looking to update my ITX build and leaks of Team Red’s next APUs has caught my eye. 

[mikeszekely]

My desktop is fairly new (Core i7-9700K, RTX 2080) and my laptop is brand new (Ryzen 4900HS, RTX 2060 Max-Q).  So I'm not going to be upgrading anything for awhile, and I'll skip the RTX 3000-series.  When the RTX 4000 series rolls around I could take a look at the price vs performance of both them and whatever the current Radeons are, plus whatever my budget is.  But, while I'm cool making sacrifices on laptops (I travel sometimes, and I don't feel like carrying a 7lb, 17" behemoth around airports for hours at a time) and machines for specific purposes I tend to go for power on my desktop GPUs.

But, if I get bored, I have a tiny computer I built inside an old NES just to run emulators on.  It's running a low-wattage Intel Skylake (6th-gen) CPU, I forget which one.  I could definitely see myself building a newer small form factor PC for retro gaming and using a new AMD Zen 2 APU.

[Sanity is Optional]

2 hours ago, azrael said:

Nvidia has always held the crown on performance. Their problem is, due to their weird pricing, it’s now premium performance. RTX cards are not cheap. It’s not hurting Nvidia, but given the current climate, people are going to think twice once the sticker shock kicks in. Radeon is more worth it on the budget to mid-range. 
 

AMD’s next line of APUs have sparked my interest though. I’m looking to update my ITX build and leaks of Team Red’s next APUs has caught my eye. 

Eh, the 5700XT is roughly comparable both in price and performance to the 2070 Super. Likewise for the 5700 vs the 2070. ATI has a slight edge, but also has no Gsync and the drivers are hot garbage.

Come the 3 series, I may just buy a 3060 and sell my 5700XT off on craigslist or something.

[Mazinger]

Another thing to consider in the question of Nvidia vs AMD graphics cards (particularly if you decide to turn a PC into a Hackintosh) is that Apple has essentially cut off Nvidia support in current and future OSX versions.  They refuse to sign Nvidia drivers, at least according to Nvidia. The last OSX version to support Nvidia cards was High Sierra.

AMD Ryzen cards might not be have the performance edge, but on Macs, they are essentially the only game in town.  Which makes me sad and a lot of Nvidia fans mad.

Fortunately, Steam's Proton emulation tech means that Linux systems have finally caught up with, or perhaps, even passed Macs on game compatibility.

What is weird is that with building hackintoshes, there is really only support for Intel's motherboard chipsets, so you are forced to use Intel motherboards and CPUs and AMD video cards to get maximum performance.  If Apple ever decides to support AMD chipsets in laptops and iMacs, it will open up all kinds of doors for more custom builds.

[azrael]

AMD To Launch New Ryzen 3000 XT CPUs: Zen 2 with More MHz

AMD...did you just pull an Intel???

[kajnrig]

3 hours ago, azrael said:

AMD To Launch New Ryzen 3000 XT CPUs: Zen 2 with More MHz

AMD...did you just pull an Intel???

How is this an Intel?

[azrael]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

How is this an Intel?

Same processor as last previous but with a spec bump. Reminiscent of the Core i9 9900K, 9900KF, and 9900KS. 

[kajnrig]

21 minutes ago, azrael said:

Same processor as last previous but with a spec bump. Reminiscent of the Core i9 9900K, 9900KF, and 9900KS. 

Oh, I see. Incremental improvements from binning. I wouldn't say they're just now doing it, though. They were doing that even with their first-gen Ryzen stuff - the 1700, 1700X, 1800X, etc. And their 3950X consists exclusively of binned silicon.

Are these new chiplets also a result of TSMC refining their 7nm process? Maybe binning and node refinement are one and the same... Similar to Global Foundries refining their 14nm process into a "12nm" process for second-gen Ryzen and the first-gen AF parts. TSMC refining their 7nm process (maybe it could be considered a... 7nm+?) would probably increase the share of "up-binned" chiplets yielded per wafer, and while these chiplets would in the past have been exclusively featured on the 3950X, now that demand for that CPU has been suitably met, AMD can allocate those chiplets to CPUs lower down the stack.

It would've been nice to see a Ryzen 3000 equivalent to the 1600AF... A Ryzen 3600 created on a "7nm+" architecture that sells for something stupid like $150? I would be all over that just like I was all over the 1600AF back when it first came out for $85.

[mikeszekely]

My Best Buy finally opened, so I went over this afternoon.  It was an enlightening trip.

-No Surface Keyboards.  They had a bluetooth keyboard for around $40 that didn't feel too bad.

-The Logitech MX Keys isn't bad.  Might even be an improvement over the Deathstalker keyboard I've been using in terms of overall comfort, and my typing speed felt reasonably fast.  But it's still pretty soft.  I guess it's hard to explain what I'm looking for, but on the Asus laptop I use the keys have a scissor switch.  Even though it's not the same kind of switch as a mechanical keyboard the keys are stable, require a comfortable (not too soft, not too hard) level of force to actuate, and when you press them you can feel the switch scissoring.  The MX Keys didn't offer much in the way of feedback on key presses short of not being able to be pressed in any further.

-They had those little sample keys for trying out switches on mechanical keyboards.  I tried both Logitech's and Razer's, and I think I prefer linear and silent.  I mean, I definitely prefer silent, but since I'm bottoming out the keys the difference between tactile and and linear switches was noticeable but not huge.

-While I think I like the key-press feel of mechanical keyboards actual typing on full-height keycaps is torture.

-But I think I might have found a compromise: the Logitech G815/915 (the only difference between them is wired/wireless and price).  It's an actual mechanical keyboard that uses their new GL switches (which may or may not be custom Kaihl low-profile switches).  They come in three flavors- linear (and silent), tactile (and silent), and clicky.  Then the keycaps on top of the switches are flat like chiclet keys.  The overall key travel is still a little longer than I'd like, but the overall feel was much better than any other mechanical keyboard I've tried.  The G915 is interesting, too, because it has a switch that toggles it between using it's "Lightspeed" receiver and bluetooth mode, which means I could use it primarily at my desk with my main computer but I could also pair it with my laptop if I feel like playing a PC game on the living room TV.  The only downsides are the price ($199 for the G815 and $249 for the G915) and the fact that I'm not already using a bunch of Logitech gear, which means I'd have to install Logitech's software in addition to the Razer software that's driving my mouse, or replace the mouse too so I can ditch Razer's software.

[technoblue]

Nice analysis, @mikeszekely! I've read about those GL switches too, and I think I agree with the camp that's saying they're Kalih low profile choc switches (or some custom iteration built for Logitech). In any case, the G815 and G915 both look slick on this side of the screen.

Does your Razer mouse have special buttons or features that requires their software? If not, you might get by with just the standard windows driver. I try to avoid Razer drivers, myself, even though I have an old left-handed Deathadder that I keep on life support. I bought the Logitech G900 to replace it (eventually), it has an ambidextrous design. I find that Logitech's drivers are less obnoxious, but their prices...well...

[mikeszekely]

2 hours ago, technoblue said:

Does your Razer mouse have special buttons or features that requires their software?

Yeah.  It's a Mamba TE.  It's got adjustable DPI settings, two programmable buttons, and RGB lighting.  To be honest, I have a Razer Kraken X headset and a Firefly mousepad, too, but I could live without an RGB mousepad and I don't think I need Razer's software to use the headset.

I know it's almost trendy to hate on Razer, and maybe their stuff was junk at some point in the past.  I hear people talking about how their mice died, and either stopped registering clicks or started registering single clicks as double clicks.  Ironically, the people who tell me this say they switched to Logitech, but I actually used to have a Logitech mouse (can't remember the model, but it was around $100 and the direct ancestor of the MX Master series) and switch to Razer when it started to have the problems everyone says Razer's famous for.  Meanwhile, I've had my current mouse and keyboard since before my kid was born, and she'll be five next month, so I've got no complaints.  I bought more Razer gear because I've liked the stuff I've bought, and if I knew Razer was going to come out with a low-profile mechanical to compete the G815/915 I'd probably hold off for it.  As it stands, though, looks like I'm going to have to start setting some money aside and trying to track down a linear G915 (which is sold out everywhere, while clickies are plentiful for some reason).  And if it comes down to it, I guess that Logitech G403 and G703 mice have a pretty similar shape and layout to the Mamba...

[technoblue]

7 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I know it's almost trendy to hate on Razer, and maybe their stuff was junk at some point in the past. 

Oh, don't get me wrong I'm not hating on Razer. I have a lot of respect for them as a company because they are one of the few manufacturers who were designing high-end ambidextrous mice in the early 2000s. This was before Steelseries or any of the other boutique manufacturers had come onto the scene. In contrast, the ambidextrous mice from the likes of Logitech back then were budget oriented designs. And left-handed mice were unheard of! When Razer announced its left-hand edition DeathAdder in 2010 (wow, time flies) it was a welcome surprise. Before that, my favorite Razer mouse was the Diamondback. 

I recall a number of fans starting to hate on Razer when Robert Krakoff stepped down. Seems pointless, but that's the internet for you.

For my part, the software thing is just a suggestion without any bias behind it. Granted, it's based on my experience with funky driver installs back in the days of Windows 98 and XP so that's the context. On the other hand, I don't see a particular reason for not having a mixed Logitech/Razer setup if that's what you're going for. They should be friendly coexisting, unless you've read something that I'm not aware of. Modern operating systems are much better about the driver-side details.

[mikeszekely]

2 hours ago, technoblue said:

Oh, don't get me wrong I'm not hating on Razer.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were. Defending my choice of Razer has just become a reflexive habit.

2 hours ago, technoblue said:

On the other hand, I don't see a particular reason for not having a mixed Logitech/Razer setup if that's what you're going for. They should be friendly coexisting, unless you've read something that I'm not aware of. Modern operating systems are much better about the driver-side details

They'll coexist fine, but to use programmable keys and to control the lighting you need their own separate utilities. They don't conflict, but it's just one more thing that wants to start when Windows does and is constantly sitting in the sys tray and running in the background. Going all-Razer or all-Logitech is a tidier, personal preference.

[technoblue]

8 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were. Defending my choice of Razer has just become a reflexive habit.

No worries. I get where you're coming from. 

8 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

They'll coexist fine, but to use programmable keys and to control the lighting you need their own separate utilities. They don't conflict, but it's just one more thing that wants to start when Windows does and is constantly sitting in the sys tray and running in the background. Going all-Razer or all-Logitech is a tidier, personal preference.

Yeah, I can see how that would be a bonus to go all in on one brand, and have all mouse and keyboard functions available using a single app. The tidy sys tray is icing on the cake, especially if the app is memory efficient while running in the background doing its thing.

[azrael]

On 6/20/2020 at 2:18 PM, mikeszekely said:

... The only downsides are the price ($199 for the G815 and $249 for the G915) and the fact that I'm not already using a bunch of Logitech gear...

Yeah, I still find it hard to swallow Logitech's pricing on their "gaming" gear.

20 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

  As it stands, though, looks like I'm going to have to start setting some money aside and trying to track down a linear G915 (which is sold out everywhere, while clickies are plentiful for some reason).  And if it comes down to it, I guess that Logitech G403 and G703 mice have a pretty similar shape and layout to the Mamba...

Gamers love them linear switches...I hate 'em. Tactile/Browns are my switch of choice.

12 hours ago, technoblue said:

... they are one of the few manufacturers who were designing high-end ambidextrous mice in the early 2000s. This was before Steelseries or any of the other boutique manufacturers had come onto the scene. In contrast, the ambidextrous mice from the likes of Logitech back then were budget oriented designs.

They're also one of the few companies I can COMFORTABLY palm-grip almost all of their mice.  

10 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

They'll coexist fine, but to use programmable keys and to control the lighting you need their own separate utilities. They don't conflict, but it's just one more thing that wants to start when Windows does and is constantly sitting in the sys tray and running in the background. Going all-Razer or all-Logitech is a tidier, personal preference.

 

1 hour ago, technoblue said:

Yeah, I can see how that would be a bonus to go all in on one brand, and have all mouse and keyboard functions available using a single app. The tidy sys tray is icing on the cake, especially if the app is memory efficient while running in the background doing its thing.

 

The true icing on the cake is if the input device has on-board memory and actually works without the need for a driver. I miss those days of only loading vendor software only if I needed to configure my device, not to run my device.

[mikeszekely]

2 hours ago, azrael said:

Yeah, I still find it hard to swallow Logitech's pricing on their "gaming" gear.

And yet, because I've yet to try another keyboard like it I think I'm going to pull the trigger on it.  More specifically, I think I'm going to go with the linear G915 TKL, so around $230.  I actually do prefer the number pad when I have to input numbers, but it's not like I'm constantly working with them, so saving $20 and getting better battery life (plus the fact that the TKL version with linear switches is actually in stock) seems worth the sacrifice.  Even if I get a cheap standalone number pad for the occasions when I do need it I'll probably come out ahead.  And while I initially thought I'd go wired I'm actually into the fact that you can use the keyboard with two computers, so I can primarily use it on my desktop but I have the option to use it with my laptop, too.

2 hours ago, azrael said:

Gamers love them linear switches...I hate 'em. Tactile/Browns are my switch of choice.

Well, for gaming I think you almost have to bottom out, at least on WASD or any other keys you need to hold down for something.  Presumably you type more than you game, though, and you've learned to press enough to actuate the keys without bottoming out, though, and the tactile switches give you the feedback you need to do just that.  In my case I can touch type, but not super fast (a little under 70 wpm).  And I'm even slower on mechanical keyboards with full-size keycaps because I bottom them out probably 90% of the time, so while it's possible I could learn to type better with tactile switches eventually there doesn't seem to be an immediate benefit for me to go with tactile over linear.  But like I said before, while I notice the difference between them it's not a huge one, to me.  I could live with tactile.

Clicky's a non-starter for me, though.

2 hours ago, azrael said:

They're also one of the few companies I can COMFORTABLY palm-grip almost all of their mice.

Yep.  I had a Deathadder, I currently use a Mamba TE (which feels extremely similar, but I might give a slight edge to the Deathadder, but the Deathadder was green only and I wanted all my lighting to be blue, so...), and I bought a Basilisk X Hyperspeed to use with my laptop (I could do without the thumb ledge, but it's otherwise great).

The G703 looks pretty similar to my Mamba, though, with a similar hump shape, a similar curve, and a similar two thumb-button layout.  Before I'd buy one, though, I'd definitely have to go to Best Buy again and put my hand on one.

2 hours ago, azrael said:

The true icing on the cake is if the input device has on-board memory and actually works without the need for a driver. I miss those days of only loading vendor software only if I needed to configure my device, not to run my device.

AFAIK the Mamba doesn't have any onboard memory.  I've never tried the thumb keys to see if they remember my programming, but it definitely doesn't remember the RGB settings as it does that flowing rainbow thing until the Razer sofware loads.  Ironically the Deathstalker keyboard I'm currently using does have onboard memory, though, despite costing me two thirds what the mouse did and despite being the cheapest keyboard Razer made at the time.

While I sympathize with the notion of just using the vendor software to configure the device then removing it, I suppose it went out the window when companies started sticking RGB onto anything marketed for gamers.  Chances are you're going to occasionally change up your lighting, even if you have your mouse/keyboard setup the way you like.  I know in my case I usually set mine to a static cyanish (something like Pantone 306) I like to change it up for some holidays 

Speaking of vendor software... I nearly forgot that in addition to Razer's (and probably soon Logitech's) I've also got Asus' Armory Crate installed because the tower has RGB lighting.  I guess (since I'm not getting rid of the tower I just got in January) that I could look to see if Asus makes a mouse comparable to the G703 and the Mamba/Deathadder.

[azrael]

13 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

The G703 looks pretty similar to my Mamba, though, with a similar hump shape, a similar curve, and a similar two thumb-button layout.  ...

I have a G703 and the shape is definitely like the Mamba or Deathadder to me, but with less sharp angle changes and slightly smaller.