Human Protoculture Intervention Hypothesis

[frothymug]

I was watching Zero earlier today when some of the dialogue hit me in a strange perspective. When Nutuk is telling the fable of Rooy-Kanu and Rooy-Waka, he mentions that when the bird-humans came, they dropped a giant turtle shell into the water, which became the islands of Mayan. When I tried to visualize this in my mind, I remembered the image of Island-1 dropping into the sea on the Vajra homeworld at the end of Macross Frontier. Island-1 very much does resemble a giant turtle shell and arrived onto the planet's surface in a similar manner.

I wonder if the protoculture "colonized" the Earth many years ago and through either a humongous coincidence, or there's some kind of natural occurrence of things, Humanity follows in the footsteps of the protoculture, using almost identical technologies. Bird-humans are now variable fighters, which are similar to the supposed natural form of the protoculture.

When the bird-human cut its own head off, the blood that came out became Rooy-Waka. Rooy-Kanu and Rooy-Waka had many children together, but Rooy-Waka eventually left the planet to travel across the stars once more. It seems that this is the cycle of the Protoculture. That they would find a planet, colonize it, then grow their population. Once the population reached a certain point, they would "spawn" another colonization group, which would travel the stars in search of a new home.

I could go on with some other interesting coincidences, but I want to hear some input before I go on.

[azrael]

I won't take the Mayan Island myths/legends/folklore literally. That's why they're myths/legends.

The Bird Human cutting off its own head seems a bit far fetched. But that's how the natives and legend view it. It's possible that it was a move by the Protoculture survey ship that came to this region of space to after they were attacked by insurrection forces. The survey ship didn't want the Bird Human to fall into terrorists hands and decided to make it unusable or whatever excuse you want to use, so they ejected control unit, or the "head", and abandoned it on the planet. And gee whiz, it's as if AFOS cut off its own head.

At the same time, the "turtle shell" that landed and became the present-day Mayan Island could have been that same survey ship, before it was blow to pieces. Those islands may have been there already or been formed geologically at a later time. But because no one ventured out that way and the Protoculture ship just happened to be in that area, oh my, the Mayan Island was formed by them.

[frothymug]

I don't see the point in severing the AFOS device in half to "hide" it, since both pieces could be detected by the Cyclops cross-dimensional radar. Perhaps at that time, the technology wasn't available to detect on that spectrum.

The point is that the fable is just that... a fable. A way of telling a story of how things came to be. I never meant to take the story LITERALLY, but you have to appreciate the symbolism in the story that could quite possibly be a little closer to the truth than one would like to believe. Sara was right about the coming of the bird-humans leading to a worldwide catastrophe. She even knew about the DNA in our blood when she said that there are two snakes intertwined with each other in blood, and she foreshadows that the power within them could be significant. How could she know about that if neither she, nor her ancestors had ever used a microscope to see what really is in one's blood?

Fables usually use a more common-place nomenclature so the listeners can understand the story better. Instead of "emigration fleet", they used "turtle shell", for example.

[Nicaragua]

I was watching Zero earlier today when some of the dialogue hit me in a strange perspective. When Nutuk is telling the fable of Rooy-Kanu and Rooy-Waka, he mentions that when the bird-humans came, they dropped a giant turtle shell into the water, which became the islands of Mayan. When I tried to visualize this in my mind, I remembered the image of Island-1 dropping into the sea on the Vajra homeworld at the end of Macross Frontier. Island-1 very much does resemble a giant turtle shell and arrived onto the planet's surface in a similar manner.

I wonder if the protoculture "colonized" the Earth many years ago and through either a humongous coincidence, or there's some kind of natural occurrence of things, Humanity follows in the footsteps of the protoculture, using almost identical technologies. Bird-humans are now variable fighters, which are similar to the supposed natural form of the protoculture.

When the bird-human cut its own head off, the blood that came out became Rooy-Waka. Rooy-Kanu and Rooy-Waka had many children together, but Rooy-Waka eventually left the planet to travel across the stars once more. It seems that this is the cycle of the Protoculture. That they would find a planet, colonize it, then grow their population. Once the population reached a certain point, they would "spawn" another colonization group, which would travel the stars in search of a new home.

I could go on with some other interesting coincidences, but I want to hear some input before I go on.

Thats a really great line of thought, i like it a lot and it makes me want to watch zero again to see if there are any other relationships i hadnt seen before.

I dont think that it was intentional by the producers but therea way that it fits anyway is pretty cool. I really like stuff like this which is open to interpretation.

[valkyriechild]

I also like how they explain protoculture through myth and legends in macross zero, and what about the part of the story where it says roy-waka cut roy kanu tail and then it grew legs(don't remember exactly the words), perhaps some kind of dna manipulation?

I'm still guessing either protoculture manipulate the dna of local life and turn it into humans, or the protoculture itself were cross breeding with the already modern human specifically in mayan island.

Or it has nothing to do with anything at all.

[thegunny]

I'm guessing it's sci-fi anime and whatever happens will happen because the script writers say it will happen

[frothymug]

I also like how they explain protoculture through myth and legends in macross zero, and what about the part of the story where it says roy-waka cut roy kanu tail and then it grew legs(don't remember exactly the words), perhaps some kind of dna manipulation?

I'm still guessing either protoculture manipulate the dna of local life and turn it into humans, or the protoculture itself were cross breeding with the already modern human specifically in mayan island.

Or it has nothing to do with anything at all.

That was another point I was going to bring up. It is all a rich tapestry of symbolism. I also agree that it could mean that the Protoculture has a tendency to cross-breed with humanoids on each planet. If that was the case, perhaps the Protoculture itself is an amalgamation of all cultures of the universe. That would fall in line to the whole "alignment" of Humans and Zentrans in the current time period. Perhaps it was always meant to be that way.

[hulagu]

I don't see the point in severing the AFOS device in half to "hide" it, since both pieces could be detected by the Cyclops cross-dimensional radar. Perhaps at that time, the technology wasn't available to detect on that spectrum.

Actually I think that _is_ the point of the AFOS - the individual pieces will only be recoverable and reconstructed by a humanity that has acquired spacefaring tech level, at which time the stay of execution expires and the Bird Human has to make the decision whether they should still be exterminated like the Mayan myth suggests tbey were ordered to by the great god "Prokulcha".

Notice the two questions the AFOS asks Sara - whether humans have attained space travel, and whether they are still a warlike race.

Not the nicest people, the Protoculture. Look at their protocol for testing whether peace has returned to the galaxy in Macross 7, Zentran/Human mixed blood drawn from a fricking deathtrap.

How could she know about that if neither she, nor her ancestors had ever used a microscope to see what really is in one's blood?

This is probably the real reason for the Mayan taboo passed down against drawing blood, to hide their unique genetic ability to interface with the AFOS.

Edited December 11, 2010 by hulagu

[Gubaba]

Actually I think that _is_ the point of the AFOS - the individual pieces will only be recoverable and reconstructed by a humanity that has acquired spacefaring tech level, at which time the stay of execution expires and the Bird Human has to make the decision whether they should still be exterminated like the Mayan myth suggests tbey were ordered to.

Notice the two questions the AFOS asks Sara - whether humans have attained space travel, and whether they are still a warlike race.

Not the nicest people, the Protoculture. Look at their protocol for testing whether peace has returned to the galaxy in Macross 7, Zentran/Human mixed blood drawn from a fricking deathtrap.

Alternatively, one could argue that being driven to extinction by their own creations taught them that being nice with their other genetic manipulation experiments probably wasn't the best way to go.

Likewise, it could also be argued that they were STILL too nice, since the AFOS decided to leave humanity alone, even after they tried to blow it up, simply because Shin and Sara loved each other. That's pretty optimistic, wouldn't you say?

[frothymug]

Actually I think that _is_ the point of the AFOS - the individual pieces will only be recoverable and reconstructed by a humanity that has acquired spacefaring tech level, at which time the stay of execution expires and the Bird Human has to make the decision whether they should still be exterminated like the Mayan myth suggests tbey were ordered to by the great god "Prokulcha".

I misunderstood the point of separating the AFOS. I thought Azrael meant that it was to hide it from nefarious beings OTHER than humans in the antiquity. Your explanation does make a lot of sense.

This is probably the real reason for the Mayan taboo passed down against drawing blood, to hide their unique genetic ability to interface with the AFOS.

I used this sentence as an example of a fable that was passed down from generation to generation. Although it's a story told by people who are oblivious to the workings of their own blood and DNA, it was told in a way for everyone to be able to understand and repeat to the next generation. It's not literally two snakes, but its a symbolic representation of the actual DNA strand.

Alternatively, one could argue that being driven to extinction by their own creations taught them that being nice with their other genetic manipulation experiments probably wasn't the best way to go.

Likewise, it could also be argued that they were STILL too nice, since the AFOS decided to leave humanity alone, even after they tried to blow it up, simply because Shin and Sara loved each other. That's pretty optimistic, wouldn't you say?

I'm pretty sure that the AFOS device was being controlled, or at least influenced, by Sara's song. Remember, that she was mourning the loss of Shin and when the device asked her those questions; she had nothing to live for. Imagine how she felt about humanity as a whole; after everything that she's seen civilized humanity do to her and her people... how their reckless pursuit of power and dominance took away the one person for whom she had begun to feel love. When Sara realized that Shin was not dead, but alive, she changed her song and emotion to where it halted the AFOS device's assault. Ironically, when it seemed that the device had been brought under control, the order to use brute force to destroy the device ended up tragically destroying the connection between Shin and Sara. Now we have no idea what happened to them after everything was over.

[Jasonc]

In watching Macross Zero, it had some very interesting theories that are actually based on theories in the real world. If anyone watches History Channel, on Thursday night at 9, they have a show called "Ancient Aliens", which explores the ideas and theories that Aliens came to our planet long ago, and did many things, like help develop some technology, help, build cities, and perhaps even create humans as we are now by genetic manipulation, and reintegrating those changed back into the world. The theories are interesting, and some of the evidence is quite convincing with other possible theories, but overall, watching this series reminds me of Macross Zero and the part of DYRL when Hikaru and Misa land on the city risen out of the sea (another theory that those same extra terrestrials that helped develop our genetic structure from neandrathals to our current form still observe us and reside under the sea). I find that stuff quite interesting.

[RedWolf]

From the coral carbon dating the arrival of the Bird Human is fairly recent. Around 10,000 years. The Mayan tribe has been identified as a Alpha Bombay blood type. Plus up until recently they were isolationist.

From what we know prior to the Protodevlin War was that a Survey Ship was seeding planets including Earth. Which likely includes Zola. That Survey Ship was ambushed by Anti-Stellar Republic forces. All records of Earth was lost along with the ship.

Remnants of the Protoculture stumbled on Earth and left an insurance policy if this particular branch of their Children prove dangerous. Some personal contact may also be involved as Fold Quartz are possessed by the priestess clan as an heirloom.

Relatively speaking Zola got the better deal. As a Galactic Whale migration planet it is guaranteed from any doomsday policy. Protoculture respect and fear space folding Super Dimensional species, rightly so. The Great White Whale eats reaction weapons for breakfast, don't even think of ticking off the Vajra. Plus they left scripts and furry snake translators.

From their MO as theorized by Professor Hassford they genetically modify local species via viruses to evolve closer to them. Humans from primates, Zolans from marsupials both are compatible for breeding if Michael is any indication.

The message on Rax suggest to me the Protoculture intended to integrate the Zentradi to society once the war was over. Hence the part of the superstition that if Zentradi are infected by the Protoculture they would be destroyed. What would be destroyed is their war only culture. Much like when the Macross granted asylum to any Zentradi defectors who want what Humans have.

[frothymug]

Aries Turner does not specify how old the AFOS device is, but she says that it is at least 10,000 years old.

Michael's ancestry is never specified in canon. However, everyone assumes that he's got some Zentraedi lineage, obviously because of his ears. If anything, his ears look more Zentran, and Klan's look more Zolan. We all know that she specifies her pure Zentraedi lineage, though. Looking at Jessica Blanc... she does kind of resemble a Zolan.

Anyway, as far as Alpha Bombay blood type, only the Priestess of the Wind Clan carried it. If Mao needed a blood transfusion, how come they didn't use the blood from one of the other islanders?

[Seto Kaiba]

Remnants of the Protoculture stumbled on Earth and left an insurance policy if this particular branch of their Children prove dangerous. Some personal contact may also be involved as Fold Quartz are possessed by the priestess clan as an heirloom.

Or... since Macross's creators still keep DYRL in some kind of Schrodinger's canon, it's also possible there was a long-term Protoculture presence on Earth and that the Birdhuman was left behind during their evacuation some 20,000 years before Space War 1. Radiocarbon dating has been known to be somewhat imprecise if conditions at the sample site are less than ideal... it seems all too possible that exposure to alien materials and whatever weird radiation an alien mecha might give off could skew the sample date.

Relatively speaking Zola got the better deal.

... if there was actually any hard evidence to support the idea of a Protoculture intervention there at any point in time, let alone during the fall of their civilization. It's plausible, but that doesn't make it fact.

From their MO as theorized by Professor Hassford they genetically modify local species via viruses to evolve closer to them. Humans from primates, Zolans from marsupials both are compatible for breeding if Michael is any indication.

Bad choice of example... Michael Blanc's heritage is disputed at best. Try as I might, I've been unable to turn up anything related to the animation that explicitly calls him part-Zolan. On the other hand, 2059:Memories labels him part-Zentradi... so I would be extremely reluctant to cite him as proof of Human-Zolan genetic compatibility. There is also the well-known and oft-referenced line in Macross Dynamite 7, but that seems more like an anatomical quibble related to child-rearing than a question of whether conception is even possible.

The message on Rax suggest to me the Protoculture intended to integrate the Zentradi to society once the war was over.

Or, to play it more closely to what's actually said... they were banking on one of the sub-protoculture species they created solving their problem after they were gone. After all, they went to a lot of trouble to leave behind an enormous combat mecha to wipe humanity out if they went to space without solving their internal conflicts first, and a record on Lux that would only activate in the presence of a Zentradi hybrid.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

I misunderstood the point of separating the AFOS. I thought Azrael meant that it was to hide it from nefarious beings OTHER than humans in the antiquity. Your explanation does make a lot of sense.

.. The survey ship didn't want the Bird Human to fall into terrorists hands and decided to make it unusable or whatever excuse you want to use...

There's a reason why I put in the line in bold.

[frothymug]

There's a reason why I put in the line in bold.

I like hulagu's idea

[Gubaba]

Bad choice of example... Michael Blanc's heritage is disputed at best. Try as I might, I've been unable to turn up anything related to the animation that explicitly calls him part-Zolan. On the other hand, 2059:Memories labels him part-Zentradi... so I would be extremely reluctant to cite him as proof of Human-Zolan genetic compatibility. There is also the well-known and oft-referenced line in Macross Dynamite 7, but that seems more like an anatomical quibble related to child-rearing than a question of whether conception is even possible.

Hmmm...unfortunately, most of my Macross references are packed up in storage back in the States, so I can't check, but IIRC, the Macross F Official Fan Book cites Michael as part-Zolan, and the Chronicle calls him part-Zentradi, with some Zolan blood somewhere in his family.

[valkyriechild]

There is another myth i remember that perhaps point to dna manipulation or cross-breeding, the "love stick" maya and shin is making in episode 1, she says you make the spears by imagining that you are mixing the ocean and wind, fish human and bird human, heaven and earth? How the stick resembles dna, and how they use that stick in their culture to confess love.

Just a thought.

[Gubaba]

There is another myth i remember that perhaps point to dna manipulation or cross-breeding, the "love stick" maya and shin is making in episode 1, she says you make the spears by imagining that you are mixing the ocean and wind, fish human and bird human, heaven and earth? How the stick resembles dna, and how they use that stick in their culture to confess love.

Just a thought.

Oh, I think the stick is a metaphor, all right ...but not for DNA...

[hulagu]

Oh, I think the stick is a metaphor, all right ...but not for DNA...

LOL.

[Jasonc]

LMAO,,, "love stick"... Is that what they call it in Macross? That should be a working title for a Macross episode.

[frothymug]

That is definitely one great example of the sybolism in the Mayan culture... heh.

[Ghost Train]

In watching Macross Zero, it had some very interesting theories that are actually based on theories in the real world. If anyone watches History Channel, on Thursday night at 9, they have a show called "Ancient Aliens", which explores the ideas and theories that Aliens came to our planet long ago, and did many things, like help develop some technology, help, build cities, and perhaps even create humans as we are now by genetic manipulation, and reintegrating those changed back into the world. The theories are interesting, and some of the evidence is quite convincing with other possible theories, but overall, watching this series reminds me of Macross Zero and the part of DYRL when Hikaru and Misa land on the city risen out of the sea (another theory that those same extra terrestrials that helped develop our genetic structure from neandrathals to our current form still observe us and reside under the sea). I find that stuff quite interesting.

Most of that stuff of course is major BS. Although it's entirely possible that ET's have visited (and continue to do so) Earth in the past, and even stepped out to say hi - to attribute (like HI does) most non-Western accomplishments to aliens is ridiculous. Why isn't it possible that American pre-Columbian cultures were good at mathematics, or that Egyptians had a good grasp of engineering? I never hear anyone say that the Colosseum, the Parthenon, or the Roman Aqueducts were constructed from aliens do you?

I think if our current history were somehow lost, future humans studying the 20th century would certainly attribute things like the rise of flight technology to aliens, since it only took 66 years between the Kittyhawk's first flight and the Apollo 11 moon landing.

And the DNA claim is equally retarded. So if they tampered with Neanderthal DNA, did they do it for their ancestors, and to the one before them? There are a number of plausible terrestrial theories that explains the decline of Neanderthal, one of which is that they interbred with Homo Sapiens migrating out of Africa - a theory for which there is actual measurable DNA evidence.

[valkyriechild]

"Love stick" was a bad choice of name, sorry for that, and it doesn't resembles dna at all. I only remember the one sara was making, not the others.

If history does repeat itself, then perhaps someday human will suffer the same fate as protoculture, war between colonies throughout the galaxy, this time using valkyries with cyborg or genetic engineered pilots, or any kind of new weapons comes to mind.

Edited December 11, 2010 by valkyriechild

[Gubaba]

"Love stick" was a bad choice of name, sorry for that...

Oh, I wasn't making fun of you or anything like that. The (what did they call it...? "Yariuei"?) spear IS a "love stick," and it does indeed represent exactly what it sounds like it does.

(As such, I think it's a mistake to try to extend its metaphor into the realm of the Bird-Human / Fish-Human Protoculture stuff...but I dunno, maybe there's some kind of connection...)

[frothymug]

Oh, I wasn't making fun of you or anything like that. The (what did they call it...? "Yariuei"?) spear IS a "love stick," and it does indeed represent exactly what it sounds like it does.

(As such, I think it's a mistake to try to extend its metaphor into the realm of the Bird-Human / Fish-Human Protoculture stuff...but I dunno, maybe there's some kind of connection...)

Regardless, it was good for a quick laugh.

I'll have to watch Zero again in its entirety to see what else comes to mind. It was just something that hit me that I thought was strangely coincidental.

[RedWolf]

... if there was actually any hard evidence to support the idea of a Protoculture intervention there at any point in time, let alone during the fall of their civilization. It's plausible, but that doesn't make it fact.

Graham can up size like a Zentradi. If DYRL is any indication Humans can do so too. We haven't seen any creature use the Miclone chamber except these three humanoid races which can classified as artificially made offshoot subspecies of the Protoculture.

[frothymug]

Graham can up size like a Zentradi. If DYRL is any indication Humans can do so too. We haven't seen any creature use the Miclone chamber except these three humanoid races which can classified as artificially made offshoot subspecies of the Protoculture.

lol, for a second, I thought you were facetiously referring to OUR Graham, not Graham Hollie. That would be cool though, huh?

[Seto Kaiba]

Graham can up size like a Zentradi. If DYRL is any indication Humans can do so too. We haven't seen any creature use the Miclone chamber except these three humanoid races which can classified as artificially made offshoot subspecies of the Protoculture.

This made me IRL. You've constructed a circular argument that requires you to believe what you're trying to prove in the first place. You're basically citing your unfounded assumption that the Zolans are a designer sub-Protoculture species to support the idea that only a manufactured sub-Protoculture species can use a micloning machine, and then claiming that because we've seen one example of a Zolan who's used one that must mean the species was created by the Protoculture.

For one, there's no evidence to support the assertion that only a genetically-engineered sub-Protoculture species can use a micloning machine. For all we know you could chuck a standard poodle in there and have it come out the size of an elephant. It would certainly explain why we've seen hydras in sizes ranging from "common housecat" all the way up to "Bengal tiger" (house cat size... for a Zentradi). So, really, that Graham Hoyly could use a micloning machine to become a giant doesn't prove that Zolans are a sub-Protoculture designer species. In fact, there's no hard evidence to suggest that they are... the question of Michael Blanc's unclear heritage notwithstanding. For all we know, they could be the descendants of the actual Protoculture (ala the Mardook), or just a coincidental quirk of convergent evolution (see many examples).

Edited December 12, 2010 by Seto Kaiba