The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Zinjo]

As I had written before, each colony could be independent jurisdictions based on trademark/patent/copyright law, and registering at the trademark/patent offices in every colony is difficult.

That is not really different in our world. To have a world wide trademark you have to register in every country or have treaties between countries that honor said trademarks and copyrights.

[Zinjo]

The NUNS forces in the Brisingr cluster seem to be kind of under-funded thanks to being in a backwater part of the galaxy...

Maybe, or perhaps, if they are Federally funded garrisons, they are "on the list" for upgrades but simply haven't seen delivery of their new equipment. The Feds are going to equip their own task force fleets first, followed by the larger colonies in the more populated regions, and then work their way backward to the smaller colonies and more remote regions.

It could be likely that by the time the Brisingr Cluster received their shipments of new VF-24's, the core worlds would be already beginning to upgrade to VF-30's.

Actually from a production perspective, that would be a good way to distinguish between a Federal valk and a colony valk. The Feds would be flying even number designated birds and the derivative craft would have an odd numbered designation in this NUN era. Hmmmm, just a bit of personal musings on my part.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Actually, in space ships and fighters are very maneuverable and could do stuff like a 90 or 180 degree turns, flying backwards, etc. Just see Episode 6 of Delta where Messer and Keith dogfight and Mirage flies backwards while shooting.

True, which is why I never bought that argument.

I like to believe the "modular" design of the SDF-1 was due to the fact that the Supervison Army Gunship, it was derived from, was always able to transform. A likely Protoculture design dating back to the Protodevlin War where cap ships would engage PD's the size of Glavil and Valgo along with SA Birdmen and their PC pilots. Since all SA cap ships were commandeered into PD service, similar to what is happening on Delta, the ship started out as a PC Republic battleship.

Subsequent Macross ships retained this ability and became more modular as it provided certain advantages. The NMCV carriers and successive Macross warships were totally modular, so that their main components could act as independent capital ships apart from the integrated whole.

In Storm Attacker (battroid) mode, the Macross ships could act as planetary sentries and mobile bases. The disintegration of the Macross Quantum Cannon from the body of the ship is the most notable difference in humanity's re-design. Though in my opinion I cannot see how a gunship can have the same power as an integrated cannon that takes full advantage of a ship's main reactor.

The Gunship's principle advantages are that it does offer a more precise firing angle when a Macross is in Attacker mode and can fire the cannon apart from the main body becoming a tactical asset in fleet engagements.

Granted, all this is my own personal extrapolation and not official.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Zinjo

[azrael]

So... has there been any explanation why the Macross capital ships transform, other than the SDF-1? If I recall the SDF-1 had to transform in order to rewire some stuff to fire the cannon; i.e., the cannon wouldn't work unless the ship was configured in such a way. What is the purpose of the other ships (Battle-class, Elysion, Quarter, etc.) transforming? Why not just fire?

The reasoning is similar to how Valks operate. Most of the power is dedicated to the engines in ship mode. In ship mode, some weapons are hidden due to the transformation and the main cannon has to rely on its own reactor to fire. When using attack mode, power is diverted from engines to the weapon systems (offensive and defensive). The main cannon can also take advantage to recharge and fire faster. Attack mode also allows the main cannon to be used hand-held, so instead of moving the whole ship, only a limb or waist needs to move to position the gun. In attack mode, ECA and barrier systems can be fully powered as well.

[camk4evr]

Sorry, I actually intended to post more earlier but had to leave for work and azrael brought up a point I would have made if I had had more time.

Actually, in space ships and fighters are very maneuverable and could do stuff like a 90 or 180 degree turns, flying backwards, etc. Just see Episode 6 of Delta where Messer and Keith dogfight and Mirage flies backwards while shooting.

Yes and no. In ship mode the cannon is fixed forward and to turn the ship left or right to reposistion the cannon will take longer, and require more effort, than it would in storm attacker mode. This video, starting at 24:30 demonstrates this (I remember this demonstartion being done in my highschool physics class)

Further, the firing arc is significantly larger than the ship form, especially for newer Macross's which put the cannon on an 'arm mount' instead of the booms of the original. Also, the storm attacker mode of newer Macross's allow the ships to sweep the beam (the Macross 7 does this in at least one episode of Macross 7) letting them hit more enemy ships.

[Zinjo]

Sorry, I actually intended to post more earlier but had to leave for work and azrael brought up a point I would have made if I had had more time.

Yes and no. In ship mode the cannon is fixed forward and to turn the ship left or right to reposistion the cannon will take longer, and require more effort, than it would in storm attacker mode. This video, starting at 24:30 demonstrates this (I remember this demonstartion being done in my highschool physics class)

Further, the firing arc is significantly larger than the ship form, especially for newer Macross's which put the cannon on an 'arm mount' instead of the booms of the original. Also, the storm attacker mode of newer Macross's allow the ships to sweep the beam (the Macross 7 does this in at least one episode of Macross 7) letting them hit more enemy ships.

MF did this as well in Ship mode. In M7 the sweep was performed by the arm mount, but in MF the ship pivoted on its lateral axis to do the same.

[Seto Kaiba]

I gave them almost their exact power-to-weight ratios and I'm just taking a educated guess at their center-of-mass vs center-of-lift but they have to be near aligned with another to give them their ability to pull cobras at mach speed and change directions near instantaneously and after finally figuring out a way of preventing the wings ripping off during Mach2+ maneuvers I have to ask, at what speeds do the dogfights happen at in each series?

All indications are that most of the dogfights occur in the subsonic regime... considering one of Kawamori's favorite aesthetic touches in choreography is to have one fighter try to break away and "floor it", which leads to both of them having a straightline or curved chase with a pair of supersonic vapor rings to show they've jumped to supersonic speeds.

So... has there been any explanation why the Macross capital ships transform, other than the SDF-1? If I recall the SDF-1 had to transform in order to rewire some stuff to fire the cannon; i.e., the cannon wouldn't work unless the ship was configured in such a way. What is the purpose of the other ships (Battle-class, Elysion, Quarter, etc.) transforming? Why not just fire?

The explanation given in Macross Chronicle's Technology and Mechanic sheets gives the following points:

• Storm Attacker mode greatly increases the ship's maneuverability.
• Enables the ship to resort to giant-size fisticuffs if the situation calls for it (such as the loss of the gunship).
• Enables all armaments to be brought to bear, including ones normally kept stowed to preserve stealthiness.
• Modular design decentralizes vital systems like thermonuclear reaction furnaces, gravity control, fold systems, etc. and allows individual limbs to operate as separate ships in a pinch.

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe, or perhaps, if they are Federally funded garrisons, they are "on the list" for upgrades but simply haven't seen delivery of their new equipment. The Feds are going to equip their own task force fleets first, followed by the larger colonies in the more populated regions, and then work their way backward to the smaller colonies and more remote regions.

Based on what was said near the beginning of the series when Windermere first moved openly to oppose the New UN Government, the troops getting Var'd or massacred all over the place belong to the local New UN Forces raised and maintained by the emigrant world governments which make up the Brisingr Alliance. As Arad and Mirage put it, the federal forces were unlikely to take any direct action in the conflict with Windermere because it was politically difficult to get them off the dime.

The official web site and magazine coverage of the mecha also points to the khaki VF-171s in the series being a local "frontier region" specification... not a federal forces version. It would, on that basis, be replaced by an emigrant-developed fighter like the VF-25 Messiah or VF-31 Kairos, not the federal forces main fighter. (Unless they sprang for a monkey model of the VF-24 or something).

It could be likely that by the time the Brisingr Cluster received their shipments of new VF-24's, the core worlds would be already beginning to upgrade to VF-30's.

It would be extremely unusual for the military to go in for a second main fighter inside of one generation... and, remember, the emigrant forces 5th Generation VFs are all derivatives from a monkey model of the 5th Generation federal forces VF. The few tidbits dropped on the subject of the YF/VF-24's performance point to its closest emigrant-built performance rival being the too-expensive-to-mass-produce YF-29. That would already put it at or above what a YF-30 could do.

Actually from a production perspective, that would be a good way to distinguish between a Federal valk and a colony valk. The Feds would be flying even number designated birds and the derivative craft would have an odd numbered designation in this NUN era. Hmmmm, just a bit of personal musings on my part.

That would imply a much greater production/development rate on the part of the federal forces than the emigrant fleets... and that ship kind of already sailed with the YF-26 attributed to the Macross Olympia fleet's rival to the YF-25 and YF-27, and Ride and the Macross 30 game putting YF-28 and YF-30 on the heads of emigrant fleets as well.

[Master Dex]

It would be extremely unusual for the military to go in for a second main fighter inside of one generation... and, remember, the emigrant forces 5th Generation VFs are all derivatives from a monkey model of the 5th Generation federal forces VF. The few tidbits dropped on the subject of the YF/VF-24's performance point to its closest emigrant-built performance rival being the too-expensive-to-mass-produce YF-29. That would already put it at or above what a YF-30 could do.

That just makes me extremely interested in seeing what a Federal Forces VF-24 can actually do if it is anywhere near comparable (or perhaps above) YF-29 stats. Considering all the effort to make this known background information, even if just as a minor tidbit, I am left feeling like a story, even if just a single movie or OVA, focusing on Federal NUNS and the kind of missions they actually do with such crazily powered fighters actually do. I'm picturing the need for the NMC ships and their giant guns to be secondary to a fighter with super powered ECA, reaction engines, weapons, etc that short folds into rogue Zentradi flagships and destroys them from within before the carrier can even charge its main gun. (This imagined scenario is based on what the supposed selling points of the YF-24 were, such as pin-point close range tactical folding).

[ManhattanProject972]

It would be extremely unusual for the military to go in for a second main fighter inside of one generation... and, remember, the emigrant forces 5th Generation VFs are all derivatives from a monkey model of the 5th Generation federal forces VF. The few tidbits dropped on the subject of the YF/VF-24's performance point to its closest emigrant-built performance rival being the too-expensive-to-mass-produce YF-29. That would already put it at or above what a YF-30 could do.

That's sorta terrifying.

[Master Dex]

That's sorta terrifying.

And thus suddenly Windermere's choice of resorting to Var mind control tactics becomes a lot more sensible, lol.

[Seto Kaiba]

That just makes me extremely interested in seeing what a Federal Forces VF-24 can actually do if it is anywhere near comparable (or perhaps above) YF-29 stats. Considering all the effort to make this known background information, even if just as a minor tidbit, I am left feeling like a story, even if just a single movie or OVA, focusing on Federal NUNS and the kind of missions they actually do with such crazily powered fighters actually do.

No kidding. I'd settle for a detailed set of specs on the thing, but a story would be even better. So far they've avoided doing anything but mention what kind of beast the YF-24 was, and how the YF-29 was the result of the Macross Frontier fleet's efforts to make a fighter that one-upped the YF-24. Not the production model... the YF-29 was an effort to build a fighter that exceeded the YF-24. The prototype whose monkey model spec they built the YF-25 from.

That thing must be a legit MONSTER.

That's sorta terrifying.

It certainly puts the politicial difficulty of sending the federal NUNS to put a stop to regional conflicts in perspective... sending them in to sort out the forces of two bickering emigrant worlds would be like using a sledgehammer for shelling walnuts.

When a fight is just plain wrong, we all sing the curbstomp song...

And thus suddenly Windermere's choice of resorting to Var mind control tactics becomes a lot more sensible, lol.

And how!

[Sildani]

First I've heard that the full-spec VF-24 might be equal to a Durandal.

How about a full-spec VF-25, since the NUNS were testing it using the SMS as a proxy? It's featured in the Master File in NUNS markings quite prominently.

[Master Dex]

First I've heard that the full-spec VF-24 might be equal to a Durandal.

How about a full-spec VF-25, since the NUNS were testing it using the SMS as a proxy? It's featured in the Master File in NUNS markings quite prominently.

The SMS VF-25 was as full spec as a VF-25 is gonna get. NUNS just wanted it to be performance tested first before mass production started. The fact that it was already a production run, hence VF, means it was done. The YF-25 Prophecy was the prototype Shinsei/LAI produced that led to the VF-25 which NUNS decided to get some outside help with since it was such an advanced mech compared to the VF-171.

The reason, as Seto has stated, that this is the case is because all emigrant fighters like the 25, 27, 29, 30, and 31 are derivatives from the shared YF-24 design data NUNS shared from Shinsei. The thing is, NUNS central either did not give out the data to build it to its full potential or more likely the full potential is something most emigrant fleets can't afford to mass produce so the all the derivatives are actually simpler cheaper variations on the basic 'stock' YF-24 design, rather than the proper full specification version. This is what Seto means when he refers to the emigrant fighters as 'monkey model.'

Since the YF-29 is the closest any fleet has come to building a fighter that matches the full YF-24 (and by extension the VF-24 the feds likely made) and it was so prohibitively expensive and difficult to produce, that implies that a proper YF/VF-24 is something only the Federal NUNS has the capability of mass producing and while they could spread that around to all fleets, the decentralization means they don't do that anymore and more than likely they are just fine with that. Federal NUNS now knows for sure no outbound fleet is going to have anything quite matching them unless some Anti-UN espionage shenanigans is happening. It also serves as an amusing form of commentary that while all the fleet governments are now autonomous and not bent to the will of central NUNS like in the old days, the people at the top are still very much in charge, lol.

[Seto Kaiba]

First I've heard that the full-spec VF-24 might be equal to a Durandal.

How about a full-spec VF-25, since the NUNS were testing it using the SMS as a proxy? It's featured in the Master File in NUNS markings quite prominently.

The SMS VF-25 was as full spec as a VF-25 is gonna get. NUNS just wanted it to be performance tested first before mass production started. The fact that it was already a production run, hence VF, means it was done. The YF-25 Prophecy was the prototype Shinsei/LAI produced that led to the VF-25 which NUNS decided to get some outside help with since it was such an advanced mech compared to the VF-171.

Master Dex is essentially correct.

The reason that Strategic Military Services had the VF-25s in the first place was that the Frontier fleet government had contracted their services to carry out the operational evaluation on the VF-25 prior to its adoption as the next main fighter of the fleet's local New UN Forces. Whether they would have been allowed to keep them after is unclear, but they were military spec. VFs built as part of the low rate initial production blocks.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah gives a slightly different view of the state of the low rate initial production VF-25s given over to SMS for field testing, however. The version Master File puts forward is that some of those OPEVAL units were built with slightly different specs from the final production intent design. For instance, it contends the VF-25A was a limited-production variant whose initial (SMS-used) units had some of its parts (such as the wings) built with inferior-grade armor from the VF-171 due to a supply issue, and that its back seat was removed and replaced with analysis gear for performance testing. The variants used by Skull Platoon had been built to the full military spec, though it also suggests the VF-25A and VF-25F variants of the VF-25 were used mainly by SMS and that the military has its own variants for the fleet defense and strengthened attack roles (the VF-25C and VF-25E) which have some slight performance improvements to thinks like the data links and engine stability. There's also an allusion in the VF-25C writeup to VF-25 export models sold to other fleets for NUNS service being reduced-capability versions. (It isn't clear if this extends to the VF-25's development partner, Macross Olympia, from whose perspective the book is written.)

The VF-25s seen in New UN Forces livery in the VF-25 Master File are fighters belonging to the Olympia NUNS rather than the federal forces.

The reason, as Seto has stated, that this is the case is because all emigrant fighters like the 25, 27, 29, 30, and 31 are derivatives from the shared YF-24 design data NUNS shared from Shinsei. The thing is, NUNS central either did not give out the data to build it to its full potential or more likely the full potential is something most emigrant fleets can't afford to mass produce so the all the derivatives are actually simpler cheaper variations on the basic 'stock' YF-24 design, rather than the proper full specification version. This is what Seto means when he refers to the emigrant fighters as 'monkey model.'

Per Great Mechanics.DX 9, the YF-24 specs that were shared out to the various emigrant fleets and worlds did not disclose all of the technological advances that went into the fighter's design. Earth withheld some stuff from the specs that were shared with the emigrant forces to ensure federal New UN Forces troops would have a technological leg-up on the emigrants (and ensure that its own influence in the New UN Government would go undiminished). Edited July 23, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[aurance]

All this back story is quite intriguing (and completely new to me). I love the various -24 derived colonial valk designs but knowing what you guys said above, I'd be keen to see what Earth's most powerful fighter is like, circa Macross Delta timeframe...

[Sildani]

So the Feds are using, presumably, maximum-strength VF-24s, Macross Olympia is using a watered-down VF-25 (and possibly Frontier too), and Macross Galaxy knew they were missing out on the 24's potential and built the 27 in secret.

The godawfully complex and expensive YF-29 rivals the Federal VF-24 in performance, and the independently designed and built YF-30 Chronos may equal or slightly exceed it. Was it ever explained how the 30's design was released so that the VF-31 could be based off it?

Also: guns. The 30, 29, and 27 all have internal ordnance and missiles, especially the 29, which brings a fracking arsenal with itself. The 25 carries its head turret, a gunpod, and two small-bore guns as standard, everything else depends on hardpoints and special parts. Do we have reason to believe the 24 would be similar?

Edited July 24, 2016 by Sildani

[Master Dex]

We only have slim details on the YF-24's loadouts as it is, enough to know it at least probably matched the 25, but could be more. The VF-24 could be even more than that.

VF-27 while being something of an over trimmed fighter in that only cyborgs can safely fly it is still based on the released YF-24 specs.. which means it likely still doesn't match the VF-24 the Feds would have. Proof of this could be the fact that the 27 struggled to keep up with the YF-29 which really is probably the best guess for how good a 24 can be.

As for 30 to 31. We know the VF-31 is made by Surya Aerospace, which implies that the YF-30 data is out there freely. This seems to be legally mandated by NUNS even though the 30 was made for SMS initially as a tech demonstrator, but NUNS certainly knew about it and if they make something that exceeds an existing design (and NUNS Havamal already jumped on the YF-29 wagon by making the apparently improved 29B model so of course they care if they are being one upped) then NUNS probably is gonna make sure everyone is on equal footing at least (except the Feds.. who are still already above that). We do know the base 31A Kairos model is likely pretty slimmed down from the YF-30 capabilities. I am not sure the 31A even has any fold quartz in it. The Seigfrieds do of course, but they are a specialized variant. I'm just assuming now that the 31 in general does not match the 30 for performance because the 30 was all about pushing an envelope just to see if it could.

A good question though is whether the design of the 24 is meant to use any fold quartz or not for a fold wave system. Or is it just that much better even without it? If so.. that implies an even scarier idea of a VF-24 variant with one installed that goes even further. I just imagine at this point Federal NUNS forces are looking at all these attempts like the 29 and 30 and chuckling in mild amusement at how cute the colony fleets are being right now, lol.

[camk4evr]

So how do the VF-19 and VF-22 compare to the VF-29, Vf-31, and YF-30?

[aurance]

I dunno. I'm not sure that within a fighter generation they have such granular control over downtuned engine specs that some smart people couldn't bring it back up to par, if they wanted to. I think it might be more of a materials/expense thing.

Edited July 24, 2016 by aurance

[Master Dex]

So how do the VF-19 and VF-22 compare to the VF-29, Vf-31, and YF-30?

They are 4th generation. The YF-29 (there is no VF-29, as no one is going to be able to afford such a thing as a production run of that except Federal NUNS.. and they basically already have something on that level), The 31, and 30 are all 5th generation. Of those 3 listed, the 31 is likely the lowest spec of them but even then they are newer than the 19 and 22 and use more up to date technology. In general, a 31 would probably outclass a 19 or 22, but there is a lot to consider still. The right pilot makes a difference. Isamu in his VF-19Advance likely could still give anyone in a VF-31 a run for their money, except maybe Messer flying the 31F with its fold wave system.

And if we put Max in his VF-22.... I don't care what kind of plane you have... there is no winning that fight.

I dunno. I'm not sure that within a fighter generation they have such granular control over downtuned engine specs that some smart people couldn't bring it back up to par, if they wanted to. I think it might be more of a materials/expense thing.

That is essentially what the YF-29 is though. It is some smart people figuring out how to bring the simplified version of the YF-24 up to it's full potential (while also designing a fighter than can effectively solo Vajra). The reason the 29 is not produced, as stated above, is it costs the capital of a small nation to do probably... and most of the emigrant fleets are equivilant to a small nation. They still need some money left over for feeding people and buying concert tickets for pop idols.

[RedWolf]

Isn't the VF-24 just speculative mass production? In the MF novelization the YF-24 no 3 unit launched against the Vajra invasion of Grace. The YF-29B on the other hand is said to have been produced by Shinsei Industry Earth branch.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-24_エボリューション

Variations

YF-24 1 Unit

It is transported to the Macross Battle 13. Where it is deployed as Aggressor machine.

YF-24 2 Unit

It is transported to the planet Messiah. It is disposed of after the test.

YF-24 3 Unit

Been deployed to the planet Eden, is maintenance storage after the limit performance test. In the novel "Macross Frontier", is used to Vajra interception was invasion in 2059 of Eden [1] .

Is a YF-24 3 Unit or unknown, Isamu Dyson Major is to have been on board at the time of the limit performance test of the 24-YF [2] [3] . 2057 years of VF-19 series and the VF-22 series with exercises at the time of the test is 24 aircraft shot down certification together, the more then 60 ships based aircraft five hundred aircraft of Starfleet and the Fleet of the exercises in the other party, a large aircraft carrier but it was shot down certification. High performance of the YF-24 with respect to this matter, there is a fact that the arm of Isamu Dyson was a first-class, but the drone is emerging, and technology decreased by combat experience lack of new Joint Force pilot is prevalent evaluation have been made ​​of [4] .

VF-24

Assuming the "Advanced Valkyrie Chronicles (prequel)" in "the first flight was successive VF is drawn to the right wing in the past," VF-25 mass production first Unit of the "Monthly Model Graphics No.290" model magazine the model has been published. And although the VF-24 first flight of the age of (YF-24 is being speculated that mass production type) are drawn to the right wing of the 2055 and the VF-25 mass production first Unit of the model, this is an official set Absent.

[Sandman]

Sorry pocket typing.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Sandman

[ManhattanProject972]

Does anybody know if there was ever official specs on the VF-19 ACTIVE NOTHUNG and the Sv-52y Oryol or any of the Macross R VF's?

And if not, is it safe to say they are on par with the VF-19 ADVANCE at least in terms of speed? Or Perhaps the VF-19Kai is a closer match?

[RedWolf]

Does anybody know if there was ever official specs on the VF-19 ACTIVE NOTHUNG and the Sv-52y Oryol or any of the Macross R VF's?

And if not, is it safe to say they are on par with the VF-19 ADVANCE at least in terms of speed? Or Perhaps the VF-19Kai is a closer match?

Sketchley translated some.

http://nomansland.site.nfoservers.com/MRG-Active-Archive//forums/index.php?topic=2667.msg41083#msg41083

[sketchley]

Sketchley translated some.

http://nomansland.site.nfoservers.com/MRG-Active-Archive//forums/index.php?topic=2667.msg41083#msg41083

Thanks.

Macross Chronicle Rev. Ed. also had a bit more info: http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/MCRmechanic.php#Other

[ManhattanProject972]

So the Sv-52 Oryol has upgraded VF-17D engines but the output of the VF-19ACTIVE wasn't really disclosed so I'm going to guess its not as powerful as Basara's VF-19kai. Was the 19Kai the most powerful 4th gen VF before the 19ADVANCE?

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry chaps, I meant to reply much earlier... but this has been a week of unpleasant surprises.

So the Feds are using, presumably, maximum-strength VF-24s, Macross Olympia is using a watered-down VF-25 (and possibly Frontier too), and Macross Galaxy knew they were missing out on the 24's potential and built the 27 in secret.

The godawfully complex and expensive YF-29 rivals the Federal VF-24 in performance, and the independently designed and built YF-30 Chronos may equal or slightly exceed it. Was it ever explained how the 30's design was released so that the VF-31 could be based off it?

Also: guns. The 30, 29, and 27 all have internal ordnance and missiles, especially the 29, which brings a fracking arsenal with itself. The 25 carries its head turret, a gunpod, and two small-bore guns as standard, everything else depends on hardpoints and special parts. Do we have reason to believe the 24 would be similar?

As a brief aside, "watered down" is something of a relative matter here.

The VF-25s used by the Macross Frontier fleet NUNS in the 2060s are weak tea compared to the full spec YF-24 Evolution or VF-24A, but they're operating at the peak of the aircraft's designed capabilities. Their export version, like export versions of other Valkyries and most real-world fighters, are reduced capability versions "watered down" from the full-spec VF-25. (It's not clear if Macross Olympia, as a codevelopment partner on the YF-25, received the full-spec VF-25 or a reduced capability export model. I would assume their VF-25s are full spec as well.)

Performance-wise, the YF-30 Chronos sits between the VF-27 and YF-29. It has the same engines as the YF-29's main engines, VERY slightly uptuned (seriously, just +5kN) and a mass more in line with a VF-25 or similar... so its thrust-to-weight ratio is 53.085, almost exactly equidistant between the VF-27's 46.493 and YF-29's 61.164. No data has yet been provided to explain how the YF-30 spec was disseminated and used to build the VF-31. I would assume, based on known facts from the development of other programs, that Shinsei, LAI, and SMS Uroboros weren't able to keep it on YF status forever and were forced to give the government the specs under galaxy law.

Given the available art, the YF-24/VF-24 appears to an arrangement similar to the VF-25.

A good question though is whether the design of the 24 is meant to use any fold quartz or not for a fold wave system. Or is it just that much better even without it? If so.. that implies an even scarier idea of a VF-24 variant with one installed that goes even further. I just imagine at this point Federal NUNS forces are looking at all these attempts like the 29 and 30 and chuckling in mild amusement at how cute the colony fleets are being right now, lol.

The original YF-24 and YF-24 Evolution were both testbeds for Inertia Store Converter technology, so that's a resounding "Yes". Any 5th Generation Valkyrie uses at least some fold quartz (because that's what's the core of an inertia store converter).

Whether it has a fold wave system of some description... it's certainly possible. The YF-30's fold dimensional resonance system was entirely internal, and apparently so too was the YF-29's fold wave system (the fold quartz on the exterior is for fold wave amplification), so not seeing big chunks of fold quartz on the exterior is no guarantee of the system's absence.

So how do the VF-19 and VF-22 compare to the VF-29, Vf-31, and YF-30?

They don't compare favorably, to say the least.

The lowest performance of the 5th Generation VFs, the VF-25, has 2.85x the thrust-to-weight ratio of the VF-22 and 2.13x the thrust-to-weight ratio of the best mass-production VF-19 variant to date. They also have better armor, more efficient and powerful engines, significantly increased generator output, etc. etc. Really it's a "no contest" thing for the most part.

I dunno. I'm not sure that within a fighter generation they have such granular control over downtuned engine specs that some smart people couldn't bring it back up to par, if they wanted to. I think it might be more of a materials/expense thing.

Well, to a certain extent the detuning seems to be enforced by legally-mandated limiters that must be present in a fighter's components and software... as with the VF-19P Excalibur or VF-19EF Caliburn export models. In the YF-24's case, the limitation seems to be partly a case of refusing to disclose the essential technologies to achieve that level of performance. There are, obviously, cases like fold wave systems where the scarcity of materials and the cost involved are the chief obstacles to implementation.

They are 4th generation. The YF-29 (there is no VF-29, as no one is going to be able to afford such a thing as a production run of that except Federal NUNS.. and they basically already have something on that level), The 31, and 30 are all 5th generation. Of those 3 listed, the 31 is likely the lowest spec of them but even then they are newer than the 19 and 22 and use more up to date technology. In general, a 31 would probably outclass a 19 or 22, but there is a lot to consider still. The right pilot makes a difference. Isamu in his VF-19Advance likely could still give anyone in a VF-31 a run for their money, except maybe Messer flying the 31F with its fold wave system.

The VF-31 is no slouch... performance-wise, it sits between the VF-25 and VF-27. It should outclass the VF-19 or VF-22 by at least 3x.

Isn't the VF-24 just speculative mass production? In the MF novelization the YF-24 no 3 unit launched against the Vajra invasion of Grace. The YF-29B on the other hand is said to have been produced by Shinsei Industry Earth branch.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-24_エボリューション

I've never seen anything to suggest that the YF-24 was only a speculative production unit.

Official sources mention that plans to adopt the YF-24 Evolution as the next main fighter of the Earth/Federal NUNS were approved in 2057. Master File also makes repeated reference to a pre-mass production manufacturing verification model.

Exactly why the YF-24-3 was employed in repelling the Vajra attack on Eden is unclear, other than that perhaps New Edwards test flight center threw everything they had sitting around at the enemy for want of a sufficiently large body of 5th Generation fighters. It was, of course, only two years on from the decision to adopt the VF-24, so Eden may not have adopted it yet.

Does anybody know if there was ever official specs on the VF-19 ACTIVE NOTHUNG and the Sv-52y Oryol or any of the Macross R VF's?

And if not, is it safe to say they are on par with the VF-19 ADVANCE at least in terms of speed? Or Perhaps the VF-19Kai is a closer match?

Masses are missing, but we have engine spec.

Pretty much everything tops out at or near Mach 5 at 10km these days, simply because that's where the friction heating of air resistance starts to damage the airframe.

If the masses haven't changed much, the Sv-52 is in the same general thrust-to-weight ratio class as a VF-11C and the VF-19ACTIVE should be around that of the YF-19 No.2.

So the Sv-52 Oryol has upgraded VF-17D engines but the output of the VF-19ACTIVE wasn't really disclosed so I'm going to guess its not as powerful as Basara's VF-19kai. Was the 19Kai the most powerful 4th gen VF before the 19ADVANCE?

It's using a FF-2550E, which several other fighters in the series also use... those are rated at 660kN, which is pretty much the same output as the YF-19 No.2's engines.

The VF-19 Custom was pretty much the most overtuned VF-19 out there, with a thrust-to-weight ratio around 5% higher than the VF-19S.

[Nazareno2012]

Just one thing I noticed, why do most electronic warfare VF's in Macross have a rotating radome (and sometimes a seperate ELINT array) when you could have a more compact, non-rotating AESA dorsal radar pod that combines both active search and passive ELINT detection in one system (like the Saab Erieye and Boeing 737 AEW&C)? It also avoids the complicated folding mechanism required by the VF-31E's radome.

[Master Dex]

Just one thing I noticed, why do most electronic warfare VF's in Macross have a rotating radome (and sometimes a seperate ELINT array) when you could have a more compact, non-rotating AESA dorsal radar pod that combines both active search and passive ELINT detection in one system (like the Saab Erieye and Boeing 737 AEW&C)? It also avoids the complicated folding mechanism required by the VF-31E's radome.

It might not look as cool or make a unique enough toy to sell, lol.

[Sildani]

Yep. Radomes are smexy.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just one thing I noticed, why do most electronic warfare VF's in Macross have a rotating radome (and sometimes a seperate ELINT array) when you could have a more compact, non-rotating AESA dorsal radar pod that combines both active search and passive ELINT detection in one system (like the Saab Erieye and Boeing 737 AEW&C)? It also avoids the complicated folding mechanism required by the VF-31E's radome.

"Rule of Cool" is probably a pretty heavily player there... but as all the recent examples of that particular trope (RVF-171, RVF-25, VF-31E) have fold-wave radar systems in their radomes instead of conventional ones, the size and/or cost of a fold wave transmitter/receiver system may have a lot to do with the choice of a rotary radome.

We know the radomes of the 1st Generation AEW/ELINT VFs were conventional. It's not clear if the radomes seen in Macross 7 are conventional or fold wave, but they don't rotate if I remember correctly. (The only radome I recall being identified explicitly as AESA instead was the one on the VF-19 in Variable Fighter Master File.)

They do all use AESA layouts for their conventional radar systems though.

[Nazareno2012]

"Rule of Cool" is probably a pretty heavily player there... but as all the recent examples of that particular trope (RVF-171, RVF-25, VF-31E) have fold-wave radar systems in their radomes instead of conventional ones, the size and/or cost of a fold wave transmitter/receiver system may have a lot to do with the choice of a rotary radome.

We know the radomes of the 1st Generation AEW/ELINT VFs were conventional. It's not clear if the radomes seen in Macross 7 are conventional or fold wave, but they don't rotate if I remember correctly. (The only radome I recall being identified explicitly as AESA instead was the one on the VF-19 in Variable Fighter Master File.)

They do all use AESA layouts for their conventional radar systems though.

Or it could also be a rotating AESA radar, like the E-2D Hawkeye's APY-9, with dual band (conventional S/L/UHF band and fold wave) capability.

[Scream Man]

i should know this, but how does 'fold' energy work?

So in the original 'Fold' was basically their version of a Hyperdrive; it was the way that a ship traveled from A to B at FTL. In Macross Plus that's how it looks, like an FTL jump, while in the original, it seemed to be more like a teleport. 7 sticks with the version we see in Plus; as long as you have a Fold Unit you can make FTL jumps.

Then we get to frontier, where suddenly this energy seems to be everywhere. 25's use it in their flight systems for energy boosts, 29's use it to make the plane more powerful, the 30 uses it too.... I dont really know, but it uses it, and the 31's have it as well. Fold Crystals allowing them to access Fold Space and do things better. So is the energy of fold space explained at all? It can clearly bleed into our universe (When the FTL drive disappears in SDFM it leaves an energy void/distortion in space that is visable, usable and stays in relative proximity to the ship rather than just being a rip in the space it occured.)


So what do we know about it, if anything?

[Master Dex]

I could try to answer this one, and might do a half decent job... but I admit I am still piecing it all together from sources with more complete information than I've had. Suffice it to say, the answers are more often than not in supplementary materials to the show like Macross Chronicle, the various valkyrie Master Files, etc. I think there are better people that can give a good answer *kicks can down to Seto*

I know fold energy is energy from Super Dimension Space, the realm ships fold through to travel faster than light, but I am not always entirely aware of what it is. Like any FTL in science fiction.. there is a bit of handwavium, unobtanium, and technobabble inherent. The better scifi tries to have more unobtanium (things that don't exist yet but don't entirely violate known physics and could exist) than the other two (handwavium being pure made up stuff for sake of plot, and technobabble being large complicated descriptions that often don't actually mean anything. Star Trek is fond of the latter, Star Wars thrives on the former). The ratio of the three is what determines when something is hard sci-fi (more realistic in a sense) or not.

Macross tends to play jump rope with Mohs Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness in that at times it goes to amazing lengths with its supplementary information to be realistic. All the information of Valkyrie specs is done in amazing tasteful ways and uses numbers that make sense and mean things in real world terms. In a sense all Valkyries are unobtanium because if we could construction compact fusion engines similar to the reaction engines they use, such a vehicle would not be impossible to build given time, desire, and money (it is highly unlikely we would ever need to make such a thing or want to spare the expense from political and economic standpoints though. They exist in Macross because they are useful there. In our world they'd be superfluous). Super Dimension Space exists on the edge of handwavium though in that the details given make it more clear cut than simply 'magical hyperspace realm that does what we need it to do' but at the same time it is something which cannot be proven to exist in terms of physics so technically still counts as something made up for the plot. As a result, while a lot of Fold stuff is rather tastefully done and is often consistent which is good for the story but it means there might not be a clear answer as to what fold energy really is (and I could be wrong too hence my earlier can kicking). This is just my take on it.