The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[mickyg]

This may have been asked before, but what are the "true" markings of Hikaru's VF-1J in the TV series?

I see a lot of toys with "VF" on the bottom of the shins, right above the feet. I have looked for images of this in the TV show but can't find it anywhere. I'd love to know where this marking came from. It sort of makes sense but I find it a bit silly - sort of how the VF-171 has it all over the place.

So, anyone have any ideas?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I feel dumb...

[Dio]

So I was over in the Macross Delta thread, and it was mentioned that Macross 7 had two love triangles, but I'm drawing a blank. Can someone tell me what they are?

Maybe more than that, depending on how you look at it. TV Tropes has it at the "Love Dodecahedron" level.

Official:

Basara - Mylene - Gamlin

Mylene - Basara - Sivil

Gigil - Sivil - Basara

Unofficial/secondary:

Mylene - Basara - Rex

Emilia - Basara - Mylene

Gamlin - Mylene - Docker

Bridge Bunny 1 - Kinryu - Bridge Bunny 2 (bro fistbump)

Physica - Mrs. Physica - Other guy on the side (not cool)

[Valkyrie Driver]

So Basara is a Rock star afterall...

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe more than that, depending on how you look at it. TV Tropes has it at the "Love Dodecahedron" level.

Official:

Basara - Mylene - Gamlin

Mylene - Basara - Sivil

Gigil - Sivil - Basara

Unofficial/secondary:

Mylene - Basara - Rex

Emilia - Basara - Mylene

Gamlin - Mylene - Docker

Bridge Bunny 1 - Kinryu - Bridge Bunny 2 (bro fistbump)

Physica - Mrs. Physica - Other guy on the side (not cool)

You forgot Guitar - Basara - VF-19

[JB0]

You forgot Guitar - Basara - VF-19

Also Millia - Max - ALL THE BRIDGE BUNNIES

[Gubaba]

Sally and Miho have names, y'know...

[Seto Kaiba]

Also Millia - Max - ALL THE BRIDGE BUNNIES

That's my favorite, for sure.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Also Millia - Max - ALL THE BRIDGE BUNNIES

Oh Max, ever the ladies man. I think we've discovered why their marriage was so strained...

[JB0]

Oh Max, ever the ladies man. I think we've discovered why their marriage was so strained...

Quite possibly! I mean, he was hanging out with his personal harem EVERY DAY on the bridge.

[Tochiro]

And that was the fuel for decades of pron doujin.

And no, I'm not joking.

At least we got Sybil/Kakizaki out of it though.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Speaking of Max, did he and Milia make up in 7? I can't remember, it's been a while since my last run through.

[Scream Man]

Not officially. The last i remember them in the main series is smiling at each other from the cockpits of their 22's.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Not officially. The last i remember them in the main series is smiling at each other from the cockpits of their 22's.

Well, it's a start. Personally, if my wife were a gorgeous Meltran ace, I'd make sure such a thing never happened...

[Renato]

I could answer but it might be a spoiler. Since this is a newbie thread I'd rather not say anything and perhaps just advise you to watch it again?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I could answer but it might be a spoiler. Since this is a newbie thread I'd rather not say anything and perhaps just advise you to watch it again?

Yeah, I kinda decided on that anyway.

[Zinjo]

The UN Spacy in Macross uses an Army/Air Force rank system.

Whether it's Army or Air Force is hard to say, but signs point to it being an Air Force rank system based on how they're shown to abbreviate the rank "Staff Sergeant" as SSgt instead of SSG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_comparative_military_ranks#United_States

They're not using a straight Japanese rank system because they have a rank that doesn't exist in the Japanese system (that of Brigadier General). Many translations have brought over the officer candidate rank (准尉, Jun-i) as "Warrant Officer", though in Japanese style, it's a rank/position directly below a 2nd Lieutenant, rather than part of a separate class of ranks altogether.

Roy was a Major. Hikaru got promoted several times throughout the original series, from his original post as a Sergeant, to a 2nd Lieutenant, and by the end of the series he was a Captain, IIRC.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/UN_Spacy

Translators are a bit divided on how to translate the term shotai... official Macross merch suggests the approved translation is "Platoon" rather than "Team". (Should probably go Squadron / Flight / Platoon instead of Group / Squadron / Team).

The ranks seen on screen, written in perfectly legible English, are consistently those of an Army/Air Force rank system. In the real world, a space fleet would be under the administrative authority of a nation's Air Force, and it appears that Macross's creators were well aware of that fact.

(As noted above, the abbreviation used for Staff Sergeant in onscreen text suggests an Air Force rank system instead of an Army one... it's abbreviated SSgt onscreen, instead of SSG.)

This is actually a fairly common misconception.

"UN Spacy" is not a contraction of "Space Navy". In Japanese, it's written as 宇宙軍 (Uchuu-gun), which is "Space Army" or "Space Military". "Space Navy" or "Space Fleet" are written differently. The ranks we're presented with (in English) in the series and later are those of an Army or Air Force. It's all but impossible to tell which, since the lowest mentioned rank is Sergeant, and the lowest written rank is Staff Sergeant, both of which exist in both systems.

Klan's rank is always given as Tai-i (equiv. Army Captain, Navy Lieutenant). It should be translated as Captain (in the Army or Air Force sense) based on official material, though some fansubs translate it using the Navy rank Lieutenant instead.

No, this is not a case of mistranslation... but rather an area of linguistic precision.

Ozma's rank (in SMS) is that of a Major (少佐 Shosa)... the reason for the confusion is his title (隊長 Taichou) which is "Unit Leader" or "Commanding Officer", which translators sometimes (irritatingly) shorten to "Commander" even though it's not actually a rank.

Roy's position was Commander of the SDF-1's Air Group (and Squadron CO for Skull Squadron).

Organizationally, this aspect of the UN Forces is not based on the USAF... it's a distinctly Japanese touch. The term (小隊 Shotai) refers to a level of organization below that of a Flight (translated as "Platoon" in Macross) consisting of 2-4 aircraft led by a junior officer.

This looks like something out of the-show-that-must-not-be-named...

As noted previously, the rank system in use is that of an Army/Air Force, and titles like "Captain (of a ship)" or "Admiral (in the sense of an officer commanding a fleet)" are not ranks, but titles. I prefer "Shipmaster" and "Fleetmaster" to minimize confusion... they're entirely separate words from the ranks of "Captain" and "Admiral" in Japanese.

"Captain" Global's rank is Brigadier General (准将 Junsho), but his title is Shipmaster (艦長 Kanchou)... separate and distinct from the actual rank of Colonel/Captain (大佐 Taisa). Similarly, a flag officer commanding a fleet could be a General (大将 Taisho) but his title (as commanding officer of a fleet) would be "Admiral"/"Fleetmaster" (提督 Teitoku).

If you watch enough Anime you begin to notice that the term "Army" is rather a generic term for most militaries whether they be based on the ground or in space. So it is likley SPACY was originally a contraction of "Space Army", since it is consistent with the "Supervision (Inspection) Army" which is space based as well. Though SDF Macross is more of a hybrid of many different things based on the show writers' & Director's knowledge base. There are capital space ships governed by Naval officers with the ranks that come with it and pilots ranked more like Army officers rather than Navy. If SPACY were strictly governed by an Army or Airforce rank structure, the SDF-1 should have been commanded by a Colonel or Brigadier General, but we know it was not.

There are also systemic differences between the Japanese military and other world militaries. The Japanese military is a civil service "job" and you can quit this job without serious legal consequence as opposed to other world militaries. Hence seeing some military characters in anime threatening to "quit".

It the world actually did have a military space fleet, I am doubtful it would fall under any Air Force command structure, but likely a Naval Space Command structure utilizing the existing Naval rank system used by planetary based navies. After all, planetary airforces do not have flying aircraft carriers, destroyers, or frigates.

Space flight as it exists today falls under the Air Force pervue as it makes sense. You are flying small, limited crewed vehicles through the atmosphere into space and back. A space based fleet would be well beyond that limited scope of activity.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

So it is likley SPACY is a contraction of "Space Army", [...]

It's either "Space Army" or "Space Military"... "Space Navy" would be written 宇宙海軍 (Uchuu Kaigun) instead of just 宇宙軍 (Uchuu-gun).

Though SDF Macross is more of a hybrid of many different things based on the show writers' & Director's knowledge base. There are capital space ships governed by Naval officers with the ranks that come with it and pilots ranked more like Army officers rather than Navy. If SPACY were strictly governed by an Army or Airforce rank structure, the SDF-1 should have been commanded by a Colonel or Brigadier General, but we know it was not.

Not wishing to be rude, but please re-read the post you quoted.

The Spacy uses Army/Air Force ranks. Bruno J. Global's title is 艦長 (Kanchou), which translations almost invariably render as the word "Captain", but that is not a rank. It's a title that denotes someone who has overall command of a ship, much like the tradition that a person in command of a ship in the West is referred to as "Captain" regardless of his/her actual rank. It would be like calling someone "Shipmaster" or "Skipper".

Global's rank as given in the dialog is 准将 (Junsho), a non-standard rank in Japanese that equates to Brigadier General. You say the SDF-1 should have been commanded by a Brigadier General, and, in point of fact, it was.

We had capital space ships commanded by officers with Army/Air Force ranks, carrying fighters piloted by pilots with Army/Air Force ranks. There are a lot of things you can do in the navy, but holding the ranks of Staff Sergeant or First Lieutenant aren't among them.

It the world actually did have a military space fleet, I am doubtful it would fall under any Air Force command structure, but likely a Naval Space Command structure utilizing the existing Naval rank system used by planetary based navies. After all, planetary airforces do not have flying aircraft carriers, destroyers, or frigates.

Space flight as it exists today falls under the Air Force pervue as it makes sense. You are flying small, limited crewed vehicles through the atmosphere into space and back. A space based fleet would be well beyond that limited scope of activity.

Seems perfectly logical to me, since the US Air Force Space Command is responsible for, among other things, testing and usage of reusable developmental space flight assets like the Boeing X-37.

Unless there were a significant change in the organization of the military, we would expect a space fleet developed today to fall under the supervision of the Air Force.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think it's important to note that, while yes space programs typically fall under the jurisdiction of the Air Force, many astronauts have been Navy Personnel (at least in the early days).

Also important to note, is that before US Space Command (USSPACECOM) was folded into US Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM), it was a unified command that was usually commanded by an Air Force general officer, but included personnel and component commands from all branches.

So following that logic, the air force might control space operations, but it doesn't follow that the crews would be air force. Especially given that the Navy has more experience operating large ships than the Air Force does. In fact I'd expect that a fair amount of space ship crews would be drawn from the submarine service, since they're used to working in tight confines, with their ship in an unforgiving and hazardous environment. That's what I think makes sense, now maybe that's not what Kawamori intended, or maybe he intended us to just go with whatever makes sense to us.

Most militaries make distinctions between grade, rank, and position. For instance, while at Barksdale, I had the Grade of E-4, the Rank of Senior Airman, and the Position of Shift Supervisor. My Grade, stated how I was to be paid. My Rank said what my seniority was, while my Position gave me authority. There were other extenuating factors, but basically, I'd have Staff and Tech Sergeants, and sometimes Lieutenants, working for me. Due to the idiosyncrasies of my job, I was more experienced than those NCO's (they had cross trained from other fields and had no experience with the job, while I had 2-3 years operational experience, making me senior). I still had to be courteous, and call them by rank, they had to listen to me when I told them to change things. So there is a difference between the Rank of Captain, and the Position of Captain. A Navy Lieutenant is called Captain whenever they are given command of a small ship, the same is true of a Rear Admiral Lower Half and all the ranks in between.

Military command structures can be very difficult to understand if you are coming from no experience. That is especially true of the Naval traditions.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[grigolosi]

Again why bother..........................................

Edited August 16, 2015 by grigolosi

[Valkyrie Driver]

Another thing to note, is that in Japanese, the name of the rank (at least for officers), Shoi, Chui, Shosa, are all prefixed by the branch name. An Army 1st Lieutenant, would be Rikugun Chui. While a Navy Lieutenant Junior Grade would be Kaigun Chui. The basic rank Chui, does not change, just the prefix. Japanese is a very context based language, where you can drop all kinds of unnecessary words from a sentence and still be understood. You're not going to call a guy wearing a Navy Uniform Kaigun Chui, because you know he's Navy, he's wearing the uniform. Instead you'll just call him Chui.

Enlisted ranks are different because enlisted ranks are generally descriptive of certain types of duties. Though the JASDF, and JGSDF generally only differ in the lower enlisted ranks, both are completely different from the JMSDF.

Another source of confusion, is that the Japanese military and SDF refers to people by their Command title, if they have one, while western militaries do not. I might refer to my Unit Commander, as my Commander, but when I address him it's always by his rank, not his title.

Some militaries make things less confusing, by eliminating the dichotomy all together. The RAF, for instance, uses very descriptive ranks. going up the US grade scale you have O-1 as Pilot Officer, O-2 is Flying Officer, O-3 is Flight Lieutenant, O-4 is Squadron Commander, and so on. In the RAF your rank describes your job.

[Seto Kaiba]

The layout of the squadron structures also follow along Naval lines. Your normal AF fighter squadron consist of 22-24 aircraft. Navy/Marine fighter squadrons consist of 10-12 aircraft. In Macross the squadrons consist of 10-12 Valkyries.

Um... there's a problem with your reasoning...

Recall, if you will, that the one and only org. chart we've seen for a Variable Fighter squadron has 15 planes on it. Also recall that, when Hikaru is given his first combat assignment in the original series, he is Skull 23. In Macross: Do You Remember Love?, the former Vermilion Platoon trio of Hikaru, Kakizaki, and Max are numbered Skull 11, Skull 12, and Skull 13 before Roy dies.

So... if a normal Navy squadron is 10-12 aircraft and a normal Air Force squadron is 22-24, all roads do kinda lead to Air Force on this one.

They do, however, use a pseudo-naval squadron designation system for the UN Spacy's fighter squadrons... the designation given for Skull squadron is usually SVF-1.

Also Naval experience with landing on a moving flight deck would be more in line with what military structure they would follow (honestly AF pilots suck at reading hand signals too).

What applies to a carrier deck on a planet does not necessarily apply to a recovery of a space fighter by a spaceship... especially those that do not use carrier decks or arresting wires for recovery like an ARMD.

EDIT: Also remember that the original intent for the ARMD-class was to be a "space airstrip"...

I honestly believe Kawamori wasn't overly concerned with the accuracy of what military rank structure he used and assigned what he deemed appropriate ranks with responsibility.

Respectfully, you can believe it... but that isn't the same as it being true. There's a good amount of evidence that Kawamori and the other Macross co-creators put a terrifying amount of thought into how this supranational military was going to work, and accompany that with a large number of hints that everyone is actually speaking English... and included the appropriate English Army/Air Force ranks in print in the show.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Um... there's a problem with your reasoning...

Recall, if you will, that the one and only org. chart we've seen for a Variable Fighter squadron has 15 planes on it. Also recall that, when Hikaru is given his first combat assignment in the original series, he is Skull 23. In Macross: Do You Remember Love?, the former Vermilion Platoon trio of Hikaru, Kakizaki, and Max are numbered Skull 11, Skull 12, and Skull 13 before Roy dies.

So... if a normal Navy squadron is 10-12 aircraft and a normal Air Force squadron is 22-24, all roads do kinda lead to Air Force on this one.

They do, however, use a pseudo-naval squadron designation system for the UN Spacy's fighter squadrons... the designation given for Skull squadron is usually SVF-1.

Callsign numbers are not necessarily indicative of how many aircraft are in a squadron. I've seen three digit numbers in callsigns. The Air Force and Army assign callsigns by aircraft name and tail number. The Navy assigns callsigns by Squadron name. The 23 could be a reference to the the Aircraft's modex, but it may be the 23rd aircraft, but that doesn't mean there are at least 23 aircraft in that squadron. Maybe they're using the last 2 digits of the BuNo similar to the way the Air Force does with Tail Numbers, or maybe the Modex numbers are done at a group level and Hikaru's bird is aircraft 23 in the group. Or maybe the number is randomly assigned by position, 2 digit numbers beginning with 2 are team members while 2 digit numbers beginning with 1 are team leaders. The point is, flight callsigns follow a naming convention, and in this case the naming scheme seems navy to me (I've done enough cross service weather briefs to know callsign naming conventions, and this doesn't fit Air Force). You also need to take into account that radio etiquette, you don't say twenty-three over the radio, it's two-three. Actors don't notice these things, and maybe the script writers jacked it up.

The Army actually denotes things that way. Platoons get issued callsigns for patrols. So Skull would be the squadron callsign, 2 indicates the team, and 3 indicates who's talking. So Skull actual would be Roy Focker, while Skull 2 would be Hikaru's team leader. I'm not saying that's the way it is, just offering a potential explanation. Unless we have a specific reference that explicitly explains this, we're likely to keep arguing in circles.

[Seto Kaiba]

Callsign numbers are not necessarily indicative of how many aircraft are in a squadron. I've seen three digit numbers in callsigns.

Yes, and that's the real world... but in Macross, we clearly and repeatedly see radio call signs are rarely not indicative of how many aircraft are in a particular unit. It's that fun little fictional touch common in a lot of sci-fi.

Take Frontier's SMS Skull Platoon for an example... its members are, respectively, Skull 1 (Leader), 2, 3, and 4 even though their modex numbers are SMS001, SMS003, SMS004, and SMS007 respectively. The same thing is in Zero, where the numbering is evidently arbitrary, and based only upon the number of pilots in the unit and their respective seniority. It doesn't seem to have any connection to the aircraft they're flying either... Alto's Skull 4 despite going through at least two VF-25F's.

The point is, flight callsigns follow a naming convention, and in this case the naming scheme seems navy to me (I've done enough cross service weather briefs to know callsign naming conventions, and this doesn't fit Air Force).

To be frank, it doesn't look like any Macross title followed a real-world callsign convention...

The Army actually denotes things that way. Platoons get issued callsigns for patrols. So Skull would be the squadron callsign, 2 indicates the team, and 3 indicates who's talking. So Skull actual would be Roy Focker, while Skull 2 would be Hikaru's team leader. I'm not saying that's the way it is, just offering a potential explanation. Unless we have a specific reference that explicitly explains this, we're likely to keep arguing in circles.

That's not how it's done in Macross though. We consistently see that platoon callsigns when they're deployed as stand-alone units are in the form "Platoon Code - # based on the number of people in the platoon". When Hikaru was promoted to platoon leader at the rank of 2nd Lieutenant, he became Vermilion 1, and his wingmen were Vermilion 2 and Vermilion 3 when not operating with the rest of Skull squadron.

There's really very little in the way of uncertainty here... the UN Spacy has never been presented as a "space navy", and there are very few, largely cosmetic references to Navy traditions and operations there. They use Navy-esque squadron designations and hull symbols, but in organization they're modeled a lot more closely on the JASDF or old Japanese Army Air Service at the squadron level.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Sildani]

Seto, just write your own Master File already. If Kawamori put a terrifying amount of thought into his universe, you're doing a horrifying amount of thinking trying to decipher it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

If it doesn't follow any specific way of doing things, then why are we even discussing this. To be honest, It's Macross, and I want a good story, and as long as it's even close to sounding right I'm going to be happy, because if I want something that's realistic, I'll go watch Lone Survivor, or American Sniper, or Act of Valor, or Black Hawk Down, because those are the only things that come to mind that have that much realism to them. They also don't occupy my list of things to watch to be entertained.

It's nice to theorize, and I'm going to go with my own interpretations, because that's how it makes sense to me. To my knowledge Mr. Kawamori hasn't really said one way or the other, and to be honest, he might have felt that doing that much detail would have gotten in the way of telling the story.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, just write your own Master File already. If Kawamori put a terrifying amount of thought into his universe, you're doing a horrifying amount of thinking trying to decipher it.

... not really. I'm just pointing out fairly obvious pieces of information from the production art and the shows and the occasional historical tidbit, the sort of stuff that would barely merit a "Related Matter" entry in Chronicle.

If it doesn't follow any specific way of doing things, then why are we even discussing this.

Dunno, man... the radio call signs aren't really based on anything real-world, but the platoon-level stuff and squadron organization is based on real-world military organization. The UN Spacy has a mix of military traditions from Japan and the West. On the one hand they're shown to use a US-style Army/Air Force rank system with ranks that aren't used in Japan (the UN Spacy has an OF-6, Japan doesn't). On the other hand, their OF(D) is treated more like an actual officer along the Japanese model than a USAF OT, and their squadron organization is based on the IJA Air Service/JASDF traditions.

It's not 100% realistic, but it's every bit as detailed as you'd expect from a military sci-fi show by a military otaku with a particular passion for aviation (and a particular love of Air Force prototypes).

Edited August 17, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

If I'm not mistaken the JMSDF doesn't have any carriers (as we would know them). They have some Helicopter carriers, similar to our Wasp class amphibious assault ships. So it makes sense that Kawamori drew inspiration from the JASDF, since that's the only place in Japan you'll find fighter pilots and fighter jets. As for the USAF, They've always been at the cutting edge of Aircraft technology, because that's the USAF's only reason to exist is projecting airpower. The Navy has always regarded aircraft as a supplement to the surface fleet, powerful and capable weapons sure, but you need carriers to get those planes to places, and you need more than fighters to defend a carrier. Air craft can cover large search patterns and fill the gaps in submarine defenses, but ships are the navy's bread and butter, not aircraft.

There's also precedent in the world to have everything dealing with a certain aspect of war belong to the branch that's specialized in that area. Israel for example, put anything dealing with the air under it's air force's control, so paratroopers, aircraft, aircraft maintenance, and Air Defense troops, they're all IAF. While All ground forces belong to the Army.

It's a greatly simplified way of doing things.

[HannouHeiki]

Didn't Shin take over LTCDR Baker's VF-0? I guess in M0 it's LTCDR Focker instead of Major Focker.

It must be very confusing for the Japanese, since Major and LTCDR are both pronounced "shousa" in Japan.

[Scream Man]

if you want to confuse it even more, then Alto (Who is a lieutenant of some kind after SMS training) ends up as a unit commander simply by getting left behind while the Quarter leaves, and then flips back to SMS in the last episode. Since SMS is a private military, he basically must have been officially signed up to NUNS and just maintained his unofficial rank, and then on top of that been promoted.

I like the discussion, and i don't see anything wrong with debating minutia. Isn't that the point of a forum?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I like the discussion, and i don't see anything wrong with debating minutia. Isn't that the point of a forum?

It is, but the problem is we're trying to get something objective out of an entirely subjective matter. Without Mr. Kawamori saying definitively what it is, we'll end up with a million different theories as to how the rank and operations structures work. I'm maintaining that it's based on the way a navy would work, because regardless of the environment, there are more similarities between surface carrier operations and space carrier operations than there are differences, meaning that the navy would be the go to place for experienced personnel. The same holds true for shipboard personnel.

That means the UN Spacy would end up with a Naval tradition regardless, because Navy people do Navy things, the Navy way.

[Seto Kaiba]

Didn't Shin take over LTCDR Baker's VF-0? I guess in M0 it's LTCDR Focker instead of Major Focker.

How? That guy dies at least twice in Macross Zero and his VF-0A is destroyed both times. (In fact, I think he actually dies twice in the same episode... #2.)

(The late Lt. Commander Tim Baker is presumably a UN Navy pilot aboard the Asuka II there for VF adoption training on the VF-0 alongside the UN Spacy and possibly UN Marine troops as well. The name stencils on the UN Spacy pilot canopy frames don't put their rank, just "PL Pilot Name", as seen later in episode 2. You can see this on Shin's VF-0D in Ep.2, and his VF-0A and Roy's VF-0S in Ep.5.)

if you want to confuse it even more, then Alto (Who is a lieutenant of some kind after SMS training) ends up as a unit commander simply by getting left behind while the Quarter leaves, and then flips back to SMS in the last episode. Since SMS is a private military, he basically must have been officially signed up to NUNS and just maintained his unofficial rank, and then on top of that been promoted.

I like the discussion, and i don't see anything wrong with debating minutia. Isn't that the point of a forum?

Actually, there's no cause for confusion there... it's all explained right in the Macross Frontier series itself (in Ep.22-23, IIRC).

After Leon Mishima became Frontier president with the death of Howard Glass, the order came down from above that SMS's forces in the Frontier fleet were going to be absorbed into the fleet's New UN Forces. The SMS Macross Quarter's crew, who suspected a good deal of foul play was involved in the change of power, chose to desert and take the ship with them. Alto and Luca did not, and made the transition from being NUNS-endorsed private contractors to NUNS fighter pilots. Alto got promoted and was appointed to lead a platoon of his own.

It is, but the problem is we're trying to get something objective out of an entirely subjective matter. Without Mr. Kawamori saying definitively what it is, we'll end up with a million different theories as to how the rank and operations structures work. I'm maintaining that it's based on the way a navy would work, because regardless of the environment, there are more similarities between surface carrier operations and space carrier operations than there are differences, meaning that the navy would be the go to place for experienced personnel. The same holds true for shipboard personnel.

That means the UN Spacy would end up with a Naval tradition regardless, because Navy people do Navy things, the Navy way.

Actually, there's very little about this that's subjective. We know the official translations of the UN Spacy ranks are Army/Air Force ones, because it's literally right there in the animation in perfectly legible English. We know the approved translation of shotai used in Macross is "platoon" rather than "team" thanks again to the copious use of English in the official merch and so on. While IJAAS and IJNAS squadron organizations were similar, the number and organization of aircraft presented is more consistent with being an Air Force layout (and modern Japan doesn't have any aircraft carriers anyway). Also, that it spun off an Air Force after Space War One kind of gives the game away...

There's evidence of some limited adoption of Naval traditions... like referring to the ship's commanding officer as kanchou (often translated "Captain", probably better rendered "shipmaster"), the nod to the VF-84 Jolly Rogers, and the use of Navy-style hull classification symbols and squadron designations... but it pretty much ends at those cosmetic details.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Actually, there's very little about this that's subjective. We know the official translations of the UN Spacy ranks are Army/Air Force ones, because it's literally right there in the animation in perfectly legible English. We know the approved translation of shotai used in Macross is "platoon" rather than "team" thanks again to the copious use of English in the official merch and so on. While IJAAS and IJNAS squadron organizations were similar, the number and organization of aircraft presented is more consistent with being an Air Force layout (and modern Japan doesn't have any aircraft carriers anyway). Also, that it spun off an Air Force after Space War One kind of gives the game away...

There's evidence of some limited adoption of Naval traditions... like referring to the ship's commanding officer as kanchou (often translated "Captain", probably better rendered "shipmaster"), the nod to the VF-84 Jolly Rogers, and the use of Navy-style hull classification symbols and squadron designations... but it pretty much ends at those cosmetic details.

If you could direct me toward the scenes you're referencing, I'll go have a look. I'm not going to argue about platoon vs team, because frankly that bit is pointless. I mean, the Navy calls their Platoon/Flight sized unit a Division (non aviation side), and has multiple different things that are called squadrons (aircraft can come in squadrons, as can ships, and in varying sizes). The direct translation of the JMSDF ranks basically amount to 3 ranks in what we would call company grade (which are all called lieutenant, with 3 different degrees) and Field Grade (all called Captain with 3 different degrees). I have not found any romaji for the other JSDF branches, but I would think they're similar. The Imperial system is what we hear most, but even then it breaks it down into junior officers and senior officers and then ranks them in order sho (small) chu (middle) tai/dai (big), i for junior officers, sa for senior officers. So Shosa is small senior officer, or a Major/Lieutenant Commander. As for how the squadrons are organized, well navy squadrons are small because space is limited. With more space, you could have bigger squadrons, and it may be a function of not having enough senior officers to command squadrons as they have junior officers and pilot officers.

You'll also notice that we've always said usually, because there are annoying exceptions to every rule. Not all squadrons have their full amount of aircraft, nor do all squadrons have the bodies to put in all those seats.

As for spinning off an Air Force, technically Naval Aviation is it's own entity in the Navy, and is generally separate from everything else. Also, Japanese is a very descriptive language. Also, the point at which we see that become a thing in the franchise, is way past our current level of military evolution. And who's to say that that the entire military hasn't just adopted a unified command, similar to the Canadian armed forces. While there is distinction between components, there's mobility between them. If you cross train to a different operational specialty, you, in essence, change branches (at least that's how I understand it, Canadians feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). That might be how the military forces in Macross have begun to work post space war one.

[HannouHeiki]

"The late Lt. Commander Tim Baker is presumably a UN Navy pilot..."

The key word here is "presume." Extrapolating from the English here is no different than other extrapolations from other instances of perfectly legible English.

Personally, I agree with translating using a western army system, with occasional navalizations on a case by case basis. However, my reasoning is based only on the goal of consistent translation between works, not on any presumption of how much thought the creators put into what the ranks are in English.

I presume that they haven't thought that much about it, and in the unlikely event that there is an official English translation, I can't imagine Kawamori or anyone laying out a detailed vision of how ranks are to be translated.

But, that's only my presumption, and perhaps better suited for discussion in a separate thread. People should feel free to drop questions in this thread without barging into a discussion.

Edited August 17, 2015 by HannouHeiki

[Tochiro]

Well put, HannouHeiki.