The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmm, these leads me to a question I have pondered from time to time. When introducing someone to Macross, should you start with Macross itself or Macross Zero?

Definitely start with the original series, or half the stuff in Macross Zero will come across as "Wow, that's neat looking... but I have no idea what the hell is going on".

[Scyla]

I think you should watch M7 first but make sure to watch the intro every time. After some while you can recite the history of Macross word by word.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Scyla

[JB0]

Hmm, these leads me to a question I have pondered from time to time. When introducing someone to Macross, should you start with Macross itself or Macross Zero?

I generally feel "production order" is the best idea for a long-running series.

Experience the franchise as it was actually produced and released. That's what the writers expected, anyways.

I'd always advise against using any analogy to western intellectual properties when trying to understand the Macross franchise continuity. For one, IP like Star Wars and Star Trek actually have official canon policies. Macross has NO canon policy, only a chronology (and the odd written declaration whenever some product doesn't fit into the official continuity, like the Master File books). Two, properties like Star Trek have writers that actually actively combine/reconcile all continuity from across films and TV series and generations.

Trek has a canon policy, but no one attempts to keep things straight on even an episode-to-episode basis, much less across different serieses.

I think Trek and Wars are both valid examples. On the one hand there IS an official canon, but on the more important hand, no one actually respects it. Not even George Lucas.

Edited April 15, 2015 by JB0

[Mr March]

Trek has a canon policy, but no one attempts to keep things straight on even an episode-to-episode basis, much less across different serieses.

I think Trek and Wars are both valid examples. On the one hand there IS an official canon, but on the more important hand, no one actually respects it. Not even George Lucas.

The point is not how much continuity is humanly possible or even considered in Trek or Wars. Nor is this about how well or poorly that continuity is executed. The point is Trek has an actual written canon policy AND a directed, proportional effort is made on a basic level to present the franchise as narratively accurate. They even had bibles for it, which guest writers always bitched about.

Macross has no such written policy at all and each iteration can be conceived from the start to contradict another without any reservations. And whereas the Trek and Wars creators have specifically declared parts of their creative properties as non-canon, Kawamori declares everything Macross as an equal interpretation of the Macross universe (M2 being the sole exception).

Now, it's clear that in practice the difference is not always apparent and sometimes the net effect is the same. The reason is obvious: these are stories first and any writer will want as much creative freedom as possible. The fictional history be damned. Which is why we can't take our Macross fandom or continuity too seriously.

[Primus1X]

Is Nyan Nyan hyphenated in the AniMeigo subs of SDFM since I am watching the ADV version, both subbed and dubbed

[Azbat62]

Is there any Macross disc of any kind dubbed into English other than the original "Macross"? I would like to know, all I am finding is English subs for anything "Macross" other than original series, plus, DYRL and Macross II. Where do you people buy your collected Macross DVDs or Blue Rays from? Where do you get the best pricing?

[Seto Kaiba]

Is there any Macross disc of any kind dubbed into English other than the original "Macross"? I would like to know, all I am finding is English subs for anything "Macross" other than original series, plus, DYRL and Macross II. Where do you people buy your collected Macross DVDs or Blue Rays from? Where do you get the best pricing?

Dubbed, you say?

The only Macross dubs in English (excluding fandubs) are the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series (via ADV Films), Macross II, and Macross Plus... and DYRL? if we count the borderline gag dub that was Clash of the Bionoids.

I've been ordering my DVDs and Blu-Rays from HMV Japan, mostly.

[Saruta]

I generally feel "production order" is the best idea for a long-running series.

Experience the franchise as it was actually produced and released. That's what the writers expected, anyways.

With Macross, honestly, I think M7 should be excluded from "production order", except for pre-teenage boys. The music is awesome but the plot is debatable and the reuse of canned battles, outright horrible.

I found the battles and all still worked fine for my 9yo son (but I still did not get the courage to show him Frontier, because of all the fan service; I probably will soon enough but need to keep an eye on him for some episodes, notably that panty-stealing story).

For adult viewers, I say skip 7. For those who have seen Frontier there is a rather strange "in-universe preview" called Macross FB7; I wish they made it into a decent intro/keypoint retelling at 180 min, but it is actually 90 min and, while giving some sot of a taste, fails to explain what's going on. Perhaps there should be a fanmade expanded FB7?.. (As in, just cut more 7 footage into the sequence).

[JB0]

Yeah, that's fair. Though IMO, even if you skip 7, you should watch the OVA sequel. It's fun, and lacks the pacing and quality issues that plague the TV series. And Basara is much more enjoyable as an OVA star than a long series.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I actually kinda liked M7, sure Basara was annoying, but later in the series the focus drifted away from Basara, and back onto the characters we wanted more of (Gamlin, Milia, Max, Mylene). We also saw some of the relationships change, as with Gamlin and Basara, going from brutally adversarial to more friendly. As for Canned battles, SDFM had a ton of them too.

Now for my own n00b question. Why the stylistic change in the Zentradi from SDFM to DYRL? In SDFM the Zentradi(Meltrandi too) were only vaguely alien (slightly different skin, eye, and hair colors), where as the Zentradi drastically changed, and all of them got pointed ears. This carried over into the later series, and only in Frontier did we see more SDFM looking Zentradi. Is there an explanation in universe, or was it just a stylistic change to differentiate humans from zentradi further?

[JB0]

I actually kinda liked M7

I do too, actually. I find it flawed, and I would do a lot different if it were my show, but... I don't regret watching it.

And regardless of what I would've done differently, I still love it when Gamlin starts singing Planet Dance to the comatose Basara. Moreso that it WORKED. (I still choose to believe Basara came out of his coma just to end the tone-deaf cacophony that Gamlin calls singing)

Now for my own n00b question. Why the stylistic change in the Zentradi from SDFM to DYRL? In SDFM the Zentradi(Meltrandi too) were only vaguely alien (slightly different skin, eye, and hair colors), where as the Zentradi drastically changed, and all of them got pointed ears. This carried over into the later series, and only in Frontier did we see more SDFM looking Zentradi. Is there an explanation in universe, or was it just a stylistic change to differentiate humans from zentradi further?

I think it was just for the look-cool factor. Gotta have as much LCF as possible.

Also, making the zentradi and meltrandi look different from each other was a beneficial move for the movie's plot. And obviously the chicks have to look human because Max marries one, so the men had to be reworked.

Of course in the original TV series, the women all had a consistent skintone, while the men were all over the color space, so there was likely always intended to be a visual distinction.

And the movie implies they had a spy infiltration operation there like in the TV series, which necessitates a more human-looking skin tone and complexion.

Alsoalso: while he's only half-zentradi, Guld doesn't look particularly non-human. Just an unusual skin tone and hair color.

[Mr March]

I don't know about that; I mean, what is going on with Guld's ear lobes?

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, Maybe Guld just wanted to gauge out his ears. I always thought they were earrings, seeing as he wasn't a military pilot (at least that's the impression I got, since he never wore a UN Spacy uniform).

[calubin_175]

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/NEOBK-1515162

Is this book a compilation of the Great Mechanics articles? Any new information worth reading?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, Maybe Guld just wanted to gauge out his ears. I always thought they were earrings, seeing as he wasn't a military pilot (at least that's the impression I got, since he never wore a UN Spacy uniform).

Yep... Guld was not a military pilot, he was a civilian test pilot (and specialist in neurology) with a special pilot's license who was supplied by General Galaxy.

[JB0]

Yeah, Maybe Guld just wanted to gauge out his ears. I always thought they were earrings, seeing as he wasn't a military pilot (at least that's the impression I got, since he never wore a UN Spacy uniform).

That was always my assumption too, that Guld wore some funky jewelry.

[Primus1X]

Are Studio Nue an animation studio because Wikipedia refers to them as a "Design Studio" (the same with Artmic). What I mean is, do they have/did they have animation facilities or did they just do character design, mecha design, writing etc, with animation done by Artland, Tatsunoko etc. ?

On ANN they are mainly listed for mechanical design, production and being Original creators with only "animation production" for a few like Samurai Pizza Cats.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=119

Edited April 25, 2015 by Primus1X

[Andras]

Does the Chronicle have any official description of the sharp-faced VF-19 underwing pods that the VFMF calls self propelled massdriver remotes? They actually look like micromissile pods, and the VFMF is so out of left-field it's hard to give it weight.

Thanks

[Seto Kaiba]

Does the Chronicle have any official description of the sharp-faced VF-19 underwing pods that the VFMF calls self propelled massdriver remotes? They actually look like micromissile pods, and the VFMF is so out of left-field it's hard to give it weight.

No, I'm afraid not... the mechanic sheets for the YF-19 only talk about the equipment and features seen in the Macross Plus OVA/movie itself.

(I haven't checked the OVA version of the TIA book, but the movie book for Plus is similarly mute on the subject... though Master File isn't THAT far out in left field.)

Edited April 27, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Tochiro]

Are Studio Nue an animation studio because Wikipedia refers to them as a "Design Studio" (the same with Artmic). What I mean is, do they have/did they have animation facilities or did they just do character design, mecha design, writing etc, with animation done by Artland, Tatsunoko etc. ?

On ANN they are mainly listed for mechanical design, production and being Original creators with only "animation production" for a few like Samurai Pizza Cats.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=119

Studio Nue is a design studio. Even when they were first conceived they were fairly notorious for doing designs so detailed that they were difficult to animate without simplifying somewhat.

I dont think anyone has ever claimed they are an animation studio (apart from fans of that OTHER franchise who never seem to be able to do a simple google search for some reason).

[sketchley]

No, I'm afraid not... the mechanic sheets for the YF-19 only talk about the equipment and features seen in the Macross Plus OVA/movie itself.

(I haven't checked the OVA version of the TIA book, but the movie book for Plus is similarly mute on the subject... though Master File isn't THAT far out in left field.)

The only thing source that's made mention of them (aside from the VFMF books), is Macross The Ride in reference to one of the model kits. I can't remember if it's part of the "in universe" text or a modellers comment on them, but they are referred to as 'missile pods'.

I also agree that they are one of the more odd and over the top interpretations of things in the VFMF books. To borrow an RPing term: the writers certainly are munchkin at times.

[Seto Kaiba]

The only thing source that's made mention of them (aside from the VFMF books), is Macross The Ride in reference to one of the model kits. I can't remember if it's part of the "in universe" text or a modellers comment on them, but they are referred to as 'missile pods'.

Went over the Macross the Ride Visual Books, and I'm pretty sure what you're referring to is this thing on Anthony Clemens' VF-11 Thunderbolt Interceptor: (Page 44 of Vol.2, in one of the modeler commentary sections, for those with copies.)

You're right, it is labeled as a micro-missile launcher. It's got eight ports on a wedge-shaped front end like what Master File calls the SPP-8, though they're shaped and proportioned differently. Not sure they're actually the same thing, or meant to be.

EDIT: We should probably ask a toy collector... I know the SPP-8 has come with a couple different YF-19s, maybe the instructions from those say what it is (if not a railgun pod)?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

You're right, it is labeled as a micro-missile launcher. It's got eight ports on a wedge-shaped front end like what Master File calls the SPP-8, though they're shaped and proportioned differently. Not sure they're actually the same thing, or meant to be.

The shape and proportion discrepancies may be because of the creative licence of either the modeller or the artist (in the VFMF's case), or both.

Either way, it doesn't make much sense for it to be a multi-mass driver, let alone a self-propelled one. There's just no precedent of that in Macross. Micro-missile launcher pods, on the other hand, make a lot more sense.

[Andras]

Hmm, the VF-11 pod could be a smaller capacity pod from the same 'family' of launchers, say with 16 missiles instead of 24.

It does seem weird that they would completely abandon underwing micromissile pods from Plus to the Frontier era

Edited April 27, 2015 by Andras

[Seto Kaiba]

The shape and proportion discrepancies may be because of the creative licence of either the modeller or the artist (in the VFMF's case), or both.

Possibly... though since they apparently had ready access to multiple YF-19 and VF-19 kits, I'm inclined to suspect that it's meant to be something new for the VF-11. (Or if the SPP-8 really is a micro-missile pod, that it's a VF-11 version of same.)

Either way, it doesn't make much sense for it to be a multi-mass driver, let alone a self-propelled one. There's just no precedent of that in Macross. Micro-missile launcher pods, on the other hand, make a lot more sense.

Well... the whole "missile with a gun instead of a warhead" thing isn't entirely unprecedented in Macross. It was a technology used by both humanity (circa 2037) and the Mardook (circa 2092) in the Macross II: Lovers Again parallel world continuity, though those used beam guns instead of solid projectiles (like Master File's LPP-12).

The mass driver part... that's definitely out there.

I'm gonna pop on over to the Toys section and ask if anyone can offer an ID on the part from the little instruction booklets.

EDIT: It looks like the toys may be on the same page as Master File on this one... I got a reply to my inquiry in the toys section, saying it's identified as a "Self-propelled Physical Warhead Launcher Pod".

Hmm, the VF-11 pod could be a smaller capacity pod from the same 'family' of launchers, say with 16 missiles instead of 24.

It does seem weird that they would completely abandon underwing micromissile pods from Plus to the Frontier era

Well... it'd make a certain amount of sense for under-wing micro-missile pods to be absent from the VF-19/VF-22, since those had internalized micro-missile capability to preserve passive stealth. Seems like the feature came right back courtesy of the VF-171 in the space of just a few years though.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

With Macross, honestly, I think M7 should be excluded from "production order", except for pre-teenage boys. The music is awesome but the plot is debatable and the reuse of canned battles, outright horrible.

I found the battles and all still worked fine for my 9yo son (but I still did not get the courage to show him Frontier, because of all the fan service; I probably will soon enough but need to keep an eye on him for some episodes, notably that panty-stealing story).

For adult viewers, I say skip 7. For those who have seen Frontier there is a rather strange "in-universe preview" called Macross FB7; I wish they made it into a decent intro/keypoint retelling at 180 min, but it is actually 90 min and, while giving some sot of a taste, fails to explain what's going on. Perhaps there should be a fanmade expanded FB7?.. (As in, just cut more 7 footage into the sequence).

To be fair to M7 (yes I know...), the series was a single season of plot stuffed into 2 seasons of series. To save on budget, recycled battles were shown, and like minded tricks to extend the episode count. If you cut out all the unnecessary scenes and episodes, you would have a boiled down plot that was very interesting.

Clearly the record company was the senior partner in the sponsorship considering how much they flogged the same songs episode after episode. MF was clearly conscious of that and didn't make the same mistake.

Basara was the wrong choice for protagonist. He had his niche in to fill in the story, but he never grew, never was in harms way in any believable way, so we came to not care too much about him as a character. He was a fixed point type character that everyone else played against. It is like having a Stone as your star and wondering why the lesser characters are given more appreciation by the fans.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I agree Zinjo. I would have been much happier if Gamlin and Mylen were the stars (in my mind they were), and I would have loved for Max and Milia to have a bit more stick time, and I would have liked to see a faster reconciliation between the two. I loved the dynamic that those two characters had in SDFM, and would have liked to see it again sooner.

Basara reminds me of every hippie/philosophy professor/academic/artist I've ever met. They condemn war, and try to make it cleaner and more humane, hoping that the goodness of human nature will prevail and we'll see that art and music and dialogue are better ways of solving problems. I admit, That's a nice sentiment, one I'd like to share, but I have no innocence to lead me to that naive notion. It'd be nice if it worked that way, but it doesn't, "Warfare is the extension of politics by different means," as Von Clausewitz said.

It's one of the reasons I hated Kaifun in SDFM, and why I related to the military characters so well. Roy, Hikaru, Max, Gamlin, Alto to some extent, and of course Ozma.

[JB0]

I think it's important to note that by the end of the war, Kaifun's accepted that violence is sometimes the only language two parties have in common. He even participates in the final battle, albeit not in an armed role.

Basara, by contrast, never changes.

Certainly, Kaifun resumes his claims of pacifism post-war, but it's not the same belief, and comes from a much darker place in his heart. One Basara would be revolted by.

I think it's important to differentiate the two phases of Kaifun.

[Saruta]

To be fair to M7 (yes I know...), the series was a single season of plot stuffed into 2 seasons of series. To save on budget, recycled battles were shown, and like minded tricks to extend the episode count. If you cut out all the unnecessary scenes and episodes, you would have a boiled down plot that was very interesting.

Agreed. In fact the idea of a movie cut retelling the plot was a good one, I think. But FB7 should have been 180 minutes, not 90.

Wonder if some cool fan will ever make a 180 minute fan version of FB7 (just add more footage from the series to fill in the glaring holes in the retelling).

I think it's important to note that by the end of the war, Kaifun's accepted that violence is sometimes the only language two parties have in common. He even participates in the final battle, albeit not in an armed role.

Basara, by contrast, never changes.

He changes enough to lose interest in Fire Bomber and leave M7, though?

I see his story with Sivil, which may have been the cause of the change, as prety tragic. (With all the love going on in the franchise, I just had to pick that pair to care about that few people seem to notice).

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think it's important to note that by the end of the war, Kaifun's accepted that violence is sometimes the only language two parties have in common. He even participates in the final battle, albeit not in an armed role.

Basara, by contrast, never changes.

Certainly, Kaifun resumes his claims of pacifism post-war, but it's not the same belief, and comes from a much darker place in his heart. One Basara would be revolted by.

I think it's important to differentiate the two phases of Kaifun.

Kaifun's character doesn't change as much, as I view it. His character evolves, from a self deluded child, to a bitter, violent, drunkard. Look at him during the war, he antagonized the military, sure he never threw the first punch, but he goaded and prodded the soldiers into a fight. He always claimed the moral high ground of not being the aggressor, but you don't have to be physical to be the aggressor. He clearly wanted the fight every time. He evolved, not to accept the nature of violence, but rather he just dropped the pretense of non violence, not by choice, but out of drunkenness.

[JB0]

See, I think there's a B beteween A and C.

He accepted force was sometimes necessary, participated in the final offensive. Arrived at point B.

Then he got home, and tried to make sense of the devastation. And arrived at point C, where he's an abusive alcoholic who does anti-authority protests just to stir up trouble.

I'm not saying he isn't a giant poopyhead at A and C, just that for a while there in the middle he wasn't an antagonist.

[Valkyrie Driver]

JB0, I can see where you're going, and I'll agree. Kaifun was an incredibly selfish character, he's very much like Basara in that regard.

Kaifun, like Basara, think that their actions are the only ones that matter.

Kaifun believes that as long as he didn't act violently first anything he did was ok. He was deluded enough to think that if violence came as a result of his words it was because other people were violent, not him. I believe that he didn't so much recognize that violence is sometimes necessary, as he came to realize that he was at his core a violent person.

To quote Ghandi, "It is better to do violence, if violence is in one's heart, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence."

Basara was slightly less deluded about his actions, though He didn't seem to care that his actions put more lives at risk than they actually saved (before the formation of sound force). He believed that all beings are inherently peaceful, and that violence is an abstraction. It's a nice sentiment, and is reflective of the times (even at present), but it's a sad fact that war, not peace, is the constant in human history. Humanity has never really known peace, only states of not-war.

Inserting myself into positions of authority in Macross, I would have put both Kaifun and Basara in prison for their actions. Kaifun should have gone to jail for willfully endangering civilians (when he convinced an entire auditorium filled with people to stay put after the raid siren went off). Basara would have gone to prison for interfering with military operations, and putting the entire civilian population of the Macross 7 fleet at risk, by increasing the casualty rates of the operations due to his interference.

But, if you can just grin and bear it through the first several episodes, and get to the part where we start to see the other characters grow, M7 isn't terribly bad. If I were compitent enough at it, I'd do an edit of the show, cutting out some filler, and shifting the focus away from Basara, and giving Gamlin, Mylene, Max, and Milia more screen time. There's no question that Basara is integral to the plot, but the first several episodes would just get condensed into a handful of episodes, 2-3, instead of 10 or more (however many, they're so painful to get through). I think it could be done with the available material.

[JB0]

JB0, I can see where you're going, and I'll agree. Kaifun was an incredibly selfish character, he's very much like Basara in that regard.

Kaifun, like Basara, think that their actions are the only ones that matter.

Kaifun believes that as long as he didn't act violently first anything he did was ok. He was deluded enough to think that if violence came as a result of his words it was because other people were violent, not him. I believe that he didn't so much recognize that violence is sometimes necessary, as he came to realize that he was at his core a violent person.

To quote Ghandi, "It is better to do violence, if violence is in one's heart, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence."

See, at first, I think Kaifun genuinely believed in pacifism, and that fighting can only beget more fighting. He genuinely thought he was helping.

I don't recall him actively trying to start fights before the end of the war, though he made a few (frankly laughable) attempts to convince a group of civilians that were living mostly-normal lives thanks to military goodwill that the military needed a stern talking-to.

But he was an idealist thrust into a situation he had no understanding or comprehension of, and made several missteps, some of them very large, while learning the lay of this strange new land.

I kind of think that if he'd MET Captain Global and they'd had a frank discussion about things, he would've come around some time BEFORE the end of the world instead of at the eleventh hour. Global was the kind of man that Kaifun didn't think existed in the military, a man who was in it to protect the civilians instead of gettin' his kill on. That's someone that he could've respected, albeit grudgingly.

Granted, the same is true of Hikaru, and Kaifun's assumptions and standoffish attitude prevented THEM from sitting down and having a nice chat. But then, Hikaru was REALLY good at taking any social situation and steering it to it's worst possible conclusion. It's a minor miracle he never provoked a duel to the death just by playing video games or anything silly like that.

Post-war Kaifun is a different beast altogether. I think he told himself he was a pacifist acting in the service of the greater good. He might've even convinced himself it was true. But he is blatantly enjoying it when his rabble-rousing causes problems for the military, especially Hikaru, which isn't an attitude I feel pre-war Kaifun would have indulged.

And he was actively STARTING fights, not attempting to END them. That's so opposed to his pre-war beliefs I don't really know where to start. He wore the mantle of pacifism to hide an angry, bitter, vengeful spirit, and lashed out in the only way he could at a world turned upside-down.

It's easy to roll the two together, as they bear strong similarities superficially(and, well, ARE the same dude).

But they're come from very different places mentally, and they carry different goals.

Basara was slightly less deluded about his actions, though He didn't seem to care that his actions put more lives at risk than they actually saved (before the formation of sound force). He believed that all beings are inherently peaceful, and that violence is an abstraction.

That's the thing. Kaifun held that belief pre-war. He was sure if we'd just sit down and TALK to the aliens, everyone would realize it was all a big mistake and we weren't all that different from each other after all.

Which, well... he wasn't WRONG, as it happened. But getting everyone seated at the table was REALLY hard. The zentradi weren't exactly the kind of folks you could just ring up and be "hey, sorry about the gunfire. Big misunderstanding. You guys wanna swing by later and we can talk this out over a pint? Cool, see you at eight."

He's very similar to Basara in that regard. Just less flamboyant about it, and better at communicating the point.

Inserting myself into positions of authority in Macross, I would have put both Kaifun and Basara in prison for their actions. Kaifun should have gone to jail for willfully endangering civilians (when he convinced an entire auditorium filled with people to stay put after the raid siren went off). Basara would have gone to prison for interfering with military operations, and putting the entire civilian population of the Macross 7 fleet at risk, by increasing the casualty rates of the operations due to his interference.

Unfortunately(or perhaps fortunately, given how the story plays out), Basara had some friends in high places, and was in fact working for the military after a fashion. Not that he saw it that way, what with him being Basara and all. But any attempt at prosecution would've been stymied.

But in my book? Basara would've been shot down on the field of battle. None of this "get out of my line of fire, you fool" crap. Gamlin should've ventilated his sorry butt.

But, if you can just grin and bear it through the first several episodes, and get to the part where we start to see the other characters grow, M7 isn't terribly bad. If I were compitent enough at it, I'd do an edit of the show, cutting out some filler, and shifting the focus away from Basara, and giving Gamlin, Mylene, Max, and Milia more screen time. There's no question that Basara is integral to the plot, but the first several episodes would just get condensed into a handful of episodes, 2-3, instead of 10 or more (however many, they're so painful to get through). I think it could be done with the available material.

Yeah, I don't regret watching Mac7. Zinjo summed up my thoughts on it very well.

Personally, I think the worst part of it is post-Stargazer. It falls into some of the most blatant padding of the run I've ever seen.

[Gubaba]

Inserting myself into positions of authority in Macross, I would have put both Kaifun and Basara in prison for their actions.

But... Basara was SPONSORED by Max. Without Max's help he never would've gotten his VF-19, or be in a position to fly out in the battlefield in the first place.

[Renato]

Then you just throw Max in jail, too. Problem solved.

This being a Newbie thread, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to go into deep analysis of each show, lest people instill prejudices into newcomers who have not seen these series. Just let them watch the show, and if they want to talk about it, then they should start the discussion. I don't think that's what this particular thread is for.