The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

Not sure I see it like that, but I suppose a lot of this discussion would be based upon individual perception. Watching SDF Macross I never got the impression the VF-1 was a compromised space fighter craft or that the Zentradi mecha were so much faster/maneuverable than the VF-1 Valkyrie in space.

Eh... the VF-1's got a few officially-acknowledged deficiencies in space flight, the biggest being that its small airframe size limits the amount of fuel it can carry, and thus the maximum acceleration and sortie range. One of the bigger points mentioned with the VF-4 was, IIRC, something like a 40% improvement in space combat capability over the VF-1. Actually, a lot of the mecha which followed the VF-1 in either universe have some form of mention of "the VF-1 was deficient in X, Y, and Z, which were remedied on the new design".

I got the impression the UN Spacy forces were pretty much superior to the Zentradi mecha and it was only because they were vastly outnumbered that the UN Spacy was on it's heels most of Space War I.

Nah, the UN Spacy was basically being subjected to the gentlest of love taps from the mostly curious Zentradi for the bulk of the war. The few times someone on the Zentradi side (usually Quamzin) got serious were the few times the Macross's crew were on the ropes and were often only saved by circumstances like the detonation of Salla base's reaction furnace, or a senior Zentradi commander ordering Quamzin to back off (sometimes at gunpoint). The Macross was barely surviving when Vrlitwhai and other commanders were sending just one or two ships at them at a time just to see what those wacky miclones would do next...

Otherwise I'd have trouble reconciling why a force of a few hundred valkyries (supported by Ghost fighters and Destroids) managed to fend off tens of thousands of Zentradi mecha repeatedly.

In short... because the Zentradi were busy satisfying their curiosity about these strange miclones, and weren't earnestly trying to rub them out. Remember, wasn't one of Hikaru's first comments to Minmay after joining the military to point out that the internal announcements about how the last battle went were a load?

When the Zentradi finally decided to take the kid gloves off, it ended badly for six billion people in just a few minutes.

[Mr March]

It's possible, but honestly I still think the issue here is perception. Nothing of this comes from the SDF Macross series and these pieces of official trivia are comparing "valkyries", not any Zentradi mecha nor do they imply such disparity between the two. In fact, nothing official (animated or written) supports a "trade off" that Zentradi=superior in space, valkyries=superior in atmosphere. For all that I criticize about the Zentradi as flying bricks, we never see this play out in any animated sequence as some "significant" disadvantage. I admit this theory is equally as valid as my own interpretation, but no more or less. We also should all understand official trivia for a new Valkyrie must speak to it's improvement above older fighters so that it's advancement is justified, even if the narrative effect is zero. I spoke of this in another thread about the supposedly advanced technology of new generation valkyries that have zero effect in any animated sequence or narrative.

I agree the Zentradi forces in the original series were indeed trying to capture NOT destroy the SDF-1 Macross; and therein lies the point; the SDF-1. The Zentradi wanted that rebuilt Supervision Army ship and couldn't care less about valkyries, ghost fighters or destroids. In fact, the more valkyries, ghost fighters and destroids the Zentradi destroyed, the easier it was to capture the SDF-1 Macross. Which is what almost happened in your example. IMO, attrition can't explain such losses; the Zentradi were losing 10-1. As for the finale of SWI, a 10-1 numbers advantage in the series proper is a far cry from the 5,000,000-1 advantage seen in the end game

Having said all that, I agree that the VF-1 Valkyrie is an all-regime craft that clearly won't be superior at any one role. The animation would support such via the narrative and the existence of the Super/Armor enhancements. But to torpedo my own theory, the animation also doesn't show the Valkyrie as "far superior" to any of the Zentradi mecha in any regard, unless the plot demands. Most combat scenes in SDF Macross depict cannon fodder valkyries falling in battle as frequently as any force of Regulds, Gnerls or Power Armor (sans main characters). The only reason I personally feel the Valkyries must have been all around superior craft to the Zentradi was simply to explain the UN SPacy survival in the face of allied vs. enemy numbers. Suspension of disbelief and all that.

I think I'll stick with the explanation is a narrative conceit. But I still think it's fun to believe the VF-1 Valkyrie was just so good that it wasted hordes of Zentradi

[Jefuemon]

Where does the name "Gnerl" for the Zentradi fighter pod come from? I've never seen any reference for it in the original Japanese.

[Seto Kaiba]

Nothing of this comes from the SDF Macross series and these pieces of official trivia are comparing "valkyries", not any Zentradi mecha nor do they imply such disparity between the two.

Aaaaaaaaaactually... I can think of a few cases where there are explicit comparisons drawn between human and alien mecha in Macross. One moment that leaps to mind was Klan Klan passing some remarks about how Zentradi mecha compare quite favorably to human equipment in some respects early in Macross Frontier. Macross II sources contain a number of remarks about how Zentradi mecha and VFs compare, including a few specific notes about where efforts were made to address those areas of deficient performance in subsequent designs. When main timeline official sources talk about how VFs compare with Zentradi mecha, they're usually speaking in pretty general terms... like Chronicle's assertion that the Regult is pretty rubbish when it comes to atmospheric flight and thus needs support from Gnerls for planetary invasion operations.

Non-canon sources like Master File do spare a thought for those kind of comparisons as well... though the specific example I recall offhand refers to VFs having difficulty coping with Zentradi tactics.

I think it's as much a matter of raw performance as it is humanity's attempts to improve their ability to fight the Zentradi on the Zentradi's terms.

In fact, nothing official (animated or written) supports a "trade off" that Zentradi=superior in space, valkyries=superior in atmosphere. For all that I criticize about the Zentradi as flying bricks, we never see this play out in any animated sequence as some "significant" disadvantage.

Well, the Regult is established to have better performance in space than atmosphere... and the VF-1 is described as having a couple significant issues with its flight performance in space, so we're halfway home already.

I think part of the reason you don't see that play out explicitly on screen is most of battles in Macross take place in space, and the few that don't are usually fought between VFs and the Zentradi's best flight-capable mecha, the Queadluun-Rau.

(You could take Macross 30 as throwing this a bone, since the Regults in that are pretty awful in the air... though the actual game mechanics of a canon game are never reliable.)

I agree the Zentradi forces in the original series were indeed trying to capture NOT destroy the SDF-1 Macross; and therein lies the point; the SDF-1. The Zentradi wanted that rebuilt Supervision Army ship and couldn't care less about valkyries, ghost fighters or destroids.

Not initially... remember, for a decent span of time (most of the series!) they thought that humans might, just might, be their long vanished creators. They were basically subjecting the Macross to just enough pressure to make 'em sweat so the Zentradi had something to draw conclusions from.

Once they concluded the Macross was an actual threat... well, things went to hell VERY quickly and everybody had cause to regret it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Where does the name "Gnerl" for the Zentradi fighter pod come from? I've never seen any reference for it in the original Japanese.

Dunno... but didn't Macross 30 use that, in English no less, for the fighter pods that appear in-game?

EDIT: Yes, yes they did. To confirm, I started up the game and flew over to at rock formation just north of Jurgen in the Siera desert where they congregate, and sure enough they're labeled "GNERL".

Edited June 11, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Nekko Basara]

I think it also bears mentioning that Valkyries and Regults (and most Zentraedi units) are totally different classes of mecha - they just appear comparable because of their scale. Where Valkyries are complex transforming "giant" robots, Regults are "little" armored pods that barely cover the pilot while improving mobility and allowing the attachment of weapons. Likewise, Queadlunns and the like are more like heavy power-armor than ships or piloted robots. When you look at it that way, the fight is closer to a Panther tank going up against an over-scale Bren carrier.

[JB0]

I do feel obliged to point out that I didn't say the VF-1 was complete trash in space, just not-so-good.

It does have documented defeciencies, and I think the FAST packs were critical to making it a mainline space fighter instead of a terrestrial fighter capable of space operation. I'm not budging on this.

But I'd wager that it still well exceeded it's design goals for space combat operation. Otherwise, the Lancer II wouldn't be an evolutionary dead-end(which break smy heart, as the little bugger's just adorable).

Everything I've seen suggests that variable fighters completely took over from dedicated space fighters, albeit only with the use of FAST packs in early designs. So clearly the VF-1 did something right.

But at the same time, it's clearly not surpassing anything the Zentradi can do, or they wouldn't be fielding Q Rau derivatives in Frontier, or borrowing from the Q Rau to make the YF-21.

Of course, it's likely not coincidence that they ONLY appear to do this for the Q Rau. The Reguld is little better than a TIE fighter. They're cheap, easy to produce in large quantities, and the pilot is expendable.

I think part of the perception of the VF-1 being just flat-out BETTER than anything the zentradi have is that Skull Squadron led a charmed life. We HEAR about a lot of deaths, and see brownies blowing up left and right. But OUR guys keep coming through unscathed, so the zentradi sure don't LOOK that effective.

If the camera was focusing on, say, Orange Team of Shrike Squadron, we'd have a much different, albeit shorter, perspective on the war.

And, of course, the zentradi were operating outside their skill set from the moment they decided to CAPTURE the Macross, which didn't help matters any.

They had no idea what they were doing, and Britai couldn't just hit them with overwhelming numbers because someone was liable to go and do things "the right way."

SOMEONE would go "Why are we pussyfooting around like this instead of showing these filthy miclones our true might? It's better to ask forgiveness than permission, so let's take the kid gloves off and turn them all into so much hard radiation. It's the zentradi way."

Or they might just try and blow up the bridge because it'd be funny. Go Kamjin!

Anyways...

[Andras]

I was doing an image search for gunpods and I saw this artwork from issue 22 of the original Chronicle series

Macross+Chronicle+22+Pic12.JPG

from http://dennis-toys.blogspot.com/2009/06/macross-chronicle-22.html

I noted it shows a 5 barrel gun assembly in what looks like the VF-11B gunpod structure, which should have 6 barrels right? My understanding is that only the GU-17 has 5 barrels. Does that art have any 'authority' since it was published in a chronicle issue?

[Seto Kaiba]

I noted it shows a 5 barrel gun assembly in what looks like the VF-11B gunpod structure, which should have 6 barrels right? My understanding is that only the GU-17 has 5 barrels. Does that art have any 'authority' since it was published in a chronicle issue?

Yeah, that's an art error... though I don't think the decorative art on that (or any other) sheet is meant to be taken as gospel. The title for the portion of the VF-11B's mechanic sheet says "30mm 6-barrel gun pod", and the line art for the VF-11C's shows the six barrel arrangement.

As far as gun pods with 5 barrel arrangements go, the GU-17 is the only one that leaps to mind in official material... though the unofficial art in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur shows the GU-15 with a five-barrel arrangement.

[Mr March]

Seto

IMO that's way too far of a leap and too far removed from the SDF Macross series (M2 vs. mainline Macross) to draw conclusions of the VF-1 vs. the Zentran mecha. Regarding Klan's statement in Frontier I was wondering about that myself in my previous post. Again, it makes sense the UN/NUNS Zentradi COULD develop better versions of the traditional Zentradi mecha (though this is never stated). But the Zentradi Army? They have no mechanics, scientists or engineers and no society doing any research or development. The Zentradi Army appears to be in technological stasis and have been for hundreds of thousands of years. They are using mecha and ships that were designed many milennia ago and haven't changed since. Once Earth humans started using OverTechnology and developing improvements over time, one has to think the Zentradi Army will fall behind rather quickly.

JBO

LOL! No need to budge, the more that is said in this thread the more I understand this is simply different interpretation from different fans. Like I said, each mecha on their own may have strengths or weaknesses. Perhaps some valkyries have improvements over earlier valkyries. But that's a far cry from any direct comparisons I can see in the show or read in the trivia between the valkyries and the Zentradi mecha. Nonetheless, I do see your point that the Super Packs are a space-specific modification made to enahce an all-regime fighter. However, I'm just not exactly certain of the implementation either way; are they "enhancement", do they make up for glaring "deficiency", etc.

As far as plot, yes, I agree seeing things from the perspective of the main characters bias' audience interpretation. But I've already accounted for that and I'm specifically thinking about SWI on a macro-scale (a few hundred valks vs. tens of thousands of zentradi). Like I said, even attrition cannot explain such losses as there's simply not enough valkyries to destroy enough enemies. So I'm left to think it's either narrative conceit or superior tactics/technology. Given the Zentradi have far superior space combat experience, I think I'll stick with the explanation that the course of the war is the demand of the plot that it work. Not much else makes sense.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto

Again, it makes sense the UN/NUNS Zentradi COULD develop better versions of the traditional Zentradi mecha (though this is never stated). But the Zentradi Army? They have no mechanics, scientists or engineers and no society doing any research or development.

"Better" is a rather subjective term... the improvements made between the UN Spacy's use of the Queadluun-Rau and their new Queadluun-Rhea are principally improvements in the area of survivability rather than performance. The Queadluun-Rau was, in what the official material tells us, such an effective battle suit that the UN Spacy quite cheerfully continued to use them after the first space war ended.

The Zentradi Army appears to be in technological stasis and have been for hundreds of thousands of years. They are using mecha and ships that were designed many milennia ago and haven't changed since. Once Earth humans started using OverTechnology and developing improvements over time, one has to think the Zentradi Army will fall behind rather quickly.

It's occasionally worth reminding ourselves that the Zentradi Army may have been in a de facto state of technological stasis, but that they went into that period of stasis armed with the best weapons and equipped with a mass-production infrastructure which the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet for the Factory Satellite tells us is capable of developing and incorporating some design improvements into the weapons it produces over time.

So, after 500,000 years of being cut off from "new" developments, the Zentradi Army is tooling around the galaxy with weapons that were built for them by the galaxy's most technologically advanced species, which have been undergoing constant, patient, automated refinement for several times longer than human civilization has been a thing.

We're shown pretty clearly on several occasions that the Zentradi mecha might not necessarily be as high-performance as the human-built mobile weapons when it comes to flight or armor, but they're still perfectly capable of wrecking a VF or five when the chips are down... even into the 2050s.

[jvmacross]

In the Macross Universe....is there anything that governs the UNS/NUNS like the "prime directive" from Star Trek? Is there any back story of what happened when the UNS encountered the Zolans? It seems that the Zolans are the only sentient species the UNS has encountered that did not begin with blowing them up/or getting blown up by them....

Edited June 13, 2014 by jvmacross

[Seto Kaiba]

In the Macross Universe....is there anything that governs the UNS/NUNS like the "prime directive" from Star Trek? Is there any back story of what happened when the UNS encountered the Zolans? It seems that the Zolans are the only sentient species the UNS has encountered that did not begin with blowing them up/or getting blown up by them....

Not that I'm aware, no... but with the overwhelming tone of "Make love, not war" in Macross, I'd wager that the UN Forces aren't exactly fussy about first contact as long as the local pointy-eared space girls are cute.

(Admittedly, the UN Forces have only really encountered a few alien races in their exploration of the galaxy... so the Zolans being the only ones who were friendly from the word "go" isn't as far in the minority as it sounds.)

Edited June 13, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Cdr Fokker]

Not that I'm aware, no... but with the overwhelming tone of "Make love, not war" in Macross, I'd wager that the UN Forces aren't exactly fussy about first contact as long as the local pointy-eared space girls are cute.

I'm no so sure about the UNS high command being all that for love and peace; there's at least one really apparent instance where they just want to destroy any possible threat without regard to alternative solutions - I'm speaking of course about "Fleet of the Strongest Women".

Based on things like that, plus some of the handling of the Vajra situation, I'd wager that most of those in high command would be of the opinion more often than not to annihilate anything that actually raises any kind of threat, without attempting to pursue alternative non-violent resolutions. Of course a race that doesn't present any threat could be accommodated and integrated (like the Zolans), but my gut says they would vote to crush any hostile forces at the first overt sign of aggression.

But then again, from the events of M7, they are a lot more restrictive on the employment of reaction weaponry, so maybe they don't want to just reign down destruction on any enemies. Except that everybody seems okay with shooting off a Macross cannon whenever and wherever, so I don't know. (That's one thing I found a little strange - though of course we're to believe that the 2045+ reaction weapons are incredibly destructive, far more than those piles of nukes used in SWI, even the smaller-scale Macross cannons are still rather potent, and are seemingly used all of the time by comparison).

And all of this is just about what high command - like back on Earth - is saying, which doesn't necessarily mean that the fleets will act out in that manner, especially given the growing autonomy of the fleets.

[azrael]

I'm no so sure about the UNS high command being all that for love and peace; there's at least one really apparent instance where they just want to destroy any possible threat without regard to alternative solutions - I'm speaking of course about "Fleet of the Strongest Women".

Based on things like that, plus some of the handling of the Vajra situation, I'd wager that most of those in high command would be of the opinion more often than not to annihilate anything that actually raises any kind of threat, without attempting to pursue alternative non-violent resolutions......

IIRC, the Meltrandi fleet attacked 1st. Thereby, making them a "rogue" fleet. Hence, attack them.

And since the NUN had no method of communicating with the Vajra and since the Vajra decided to attack like any animal that's threatened, the order to attack stands.

[sketchley]

In the Macross Universe....is there anything that governs the UNS/NUNS like the "prime directive" from Star Trek? Is there any back story of what happened when the UNS encountered the Zolans? It seems that the Zolans are the only sentient species the UNS has encountered that did not begin with blowing them up/or getting blown up by them....

There is something, but it's in an entirely different scope to Star Trek's Prime Directive.

It's called the "Galactic Treaty", and was promulgated at the end of SWI.

In short, reaction weapons are extremely dangerous (something, oddly, that the Heavy Quantum Reaction Weapons are not considered to be :confused: ), and there use is limited to life or death situations (Macross 7).

On top of that, there are clauses that forbid Emigrant Fleets from "invading" planets with intelligent life (Macross F).

There's information on the Zolans and how the relationship with mankind got started in Macross Chronicle. What's noteworthy is mankind considers the Zolans "quaint" and "old fashioned", but on the other hand the Zolans reject the majority of mankind's technology and modernity, because it's too destructive to the natural environment (that's in the sense of urban development and commerce, not war machinery).

[Cdr Fokker]

IIRC, the Meltrandi fleet attacked 1st. Thereby, making them a "rogue" fleet. Hence, attack them.

And since the NUN had no method of communicating with the Vajra and since the Vajra decided to attack like any animal that's threatened, the order to attack stands.

Yeah, but as I recall, the attitude conveyed was "what, more Zentradi/Meltrandi? just kill them already" without regard for any other course of action (or concern when certain parties decided to take such action).

With respect to the Vajra - not talking so much about the actual combat with them here, but rather how other aspects were handled, reflecting a certain attitude. I do admit though that this is really likely more reflective of the fleet leadership rather than the real NUN leadership, as I don't recall them being brought into much in F (unlike the handful of conference calls in 7).

And that's what I'm getting at - a general attitude that doesn't seem as open to non-violent responses. Even though the series is all about love and winning over our enemies, that's not the attitude of those in command. (And really, would it be as interesting if everybody was 100% behind people like Basara from day one?)

I will also admit some ignorance on the greater Vajra topic; I haven't read up too much on backstory in terms of how things actually first started - i.e., which party was the actual instigator that kicked everything off leading to the events of Frontier. Was it indeed because of official (N)UNS actions that the Vajra reacted and began attacking? Or did they just start attacking? It would seem something set them off - whether of their own accord or in response to a threat from (N)UNS, as first contact well predates everything we saw in the series (even the original attack on the research fleet).

[azrael]

Yeah, but as I recall, the attitude conveyed was "what, more Zentradi/Meltrandi? just kill them already" without regard for any other course of action (or concern when certain parties decided to take such action).

Likely because of the hundreds of thousand fleets still roaming the universe, 1 fleet isn't going to be missed.

[JB0]

Likely because of the hundreds of thousand fleets still roaming the universe, 1 fleet isn't going to be missed.

Also worth pointing out that the native zentradi's attitude towards strangers isn't exactly unknown. They aren't assumed to be hostile. They ARE hostile.

They could be won over with an extended psychological warfare campaign, but a colony fleet doesn't have the resources for it.

And they most definitely don't need five million angry warships hot on the fleet's heels for the rest of it's likely-abbreviated existence.

Obviously, this wasn't a problem for Seven fleet, but not everyone has Basara to open their eyes to the glorious majesty of DECULTURE! in thirty minutes.

So standing orders for a colony fleet are probably:

1. Avoid contact with native zentradi.

2. If any native zentradi detect you, deal with it permanently.

It's harsh, but it's rational.

Also, I'm rewatching Fleet of the Strongest Women now because of this discussion. I HOPE YOU'RE ALL HAPPY(because I sure am).

Edit: Okay, it's less nuanced than that. New UN Spacey command are just stinkyheads. Explicit orders not to negotiate for peace(which goes over with Max, Millia, and Exedol about as well as you'd expect).

Edited June 14, 2014 by JB0

[Zinjo]

Nah, the UN Spacy was basically being subjected to the gentlest of love taps from the mostly curious Zentradi for the bulk of the war. The few times someone on the Zentradi side (usually Quamzin) got serious were the few times the Macross's crew were on the ropes and were often only saved by circumstances like the detonation of Salla base's reaction furnace, or a senior Zentradi commander ordering Quamzin to back off (sometimes at gunpoint). The Macross was barely surviving when Vrlitwhai and other commanders were sending just one or two ships at them at a time just to see what those wacky miclones would do next...

In short... because the Zentradi were busy satisfying their curiosity about these strange miclones, and weren't earnestly trying to rub them out. Remember, wasn't one of Hikaru's first comments to Minmay after joining the military to point out that the internal announcements about how the last battle went were a load?

When the Zentradi finally decided to take the kid gloves off, it ended badly for six billion people in just a few minutes.

To be specific, the reason why they wanted to capture the Macross was because she carried Reaction weaponry. A form of weapon lost to the Zentradi over the ages.

Likely because of the hundreds of thousand fleets still roaming the universe, 1 fleet isn't going to be missed.

True and they no longer have a centralized command like the did under the Protoculture to keep tabs on everyone. Perhaps only they only have regional commanders like Bodolza. A missing fleet might be considered a casualty of the ongoing war with the SA.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

To be specific, the reason why they wanted to capture the Macross was because she carried Reaction weaponry. A form of weapon lost to the Zentradi over the ages.

Initially, yes...

True and they no longer have a centralized command like the did under the Protoculture to keep tabs on everyone. Perhaps only they only have regional commanders like Bodolza. A missing fleet might be considered a casualty of the ongoing war with the SA.

Unless, of course, the surviving elements of the lost fleets manage to contact other fleets and request reinforcements...

At the end of the first space war, Boddole Zer's fleet had fractured and fled in all directions, with around three million ships still in service. While it doesn't seem that any of them managed to secure reinforcements and return to attack again in Macross's main continuity, it did happen TWICE in Macross II's parallel world continuity. (Both times because our boy Quamzin escaped death's embrace in a previous conflict and led reinforcements back to Earth.)

[Nekko Basara]

Thinking about Macross Plus, I realized that I've never been clear about Gueldoa's motivations for introducing the unstable AI chip into Sharon, and his actions after that.

It initially seems like he's just obsessively dedicated to making the project work, but it goes so far beyond that. He unblinkingly commits murder to keep the project under wraps, and by the "A Sai En" scene, he's clearly aware that Sharon is taking over the SDF-1 and treats this as the culmination of his work, apparently committing suicide as the ship comes to life.

So, what is this guy's deal? Is he totally brainwashed by Sharon, and is there a chicken-and-egg problem there, since he essentially created her and was obsessed with her before she had that power? Is he just an insane nihilist? Does he think he has created humanity's successors, or is he just a music technician whose creation drive him nuts?

I feel like his story gets lost behind the main characters', but maybe I'm missing the details.

[Mr March]

You didn't miss anything, you're correct. At least in the context of the Macross Plus OVA and films, we as the audience are never informed of Marj (Marge?) Gueldoa's motives, reasons or history prior to the events of the Sharon Apple Incident. In fact, we're not even given enough in either the OVA or film to fully believe Marj/Marge as a properly formed "twirl's-his-moustache" kind of comic book villain. IMO, it's a weakness in the script. Macross has featured horribly underwritten conspiracies in almost every iteration of the franchise (both benign and malignant), which I've kinda learned to accept as intentionally written down for the target audience (mostly children). Since Macross Plus is written for a more mature audience, I can only conclude it's just a weak element in an otherwise compelling story.

In my personal interpretation of Macross Plus, I imagine Marj/Marge Geuldoa is simply a follower in the whole story, used by the higher-level conspirators (General Gomez, the Consortium, etc) because of his position and because he's unstable enough to actually go along with the A.I. coup, something "a visionary can appreciate". Sharon Apple may have "helped" Marj/Marge commit suicide by influencing an already unstable man to simply die as a symbol of his "visonary" accomplishments.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Mr March

[Nekko Basara]

Thanks, Mr. March. Just as with the general confusion about what exactly happened between Isamu, Guld, and Myung, it's comforting to me to realize this is legitimately a gray area in the source. I can live with ambiguity, I just don't like to feel that I'm being obtuse.

[Seto Kaiba]

Thinking about Macross Plus, I realized that I've never been clear about Gueldoa's motivations for introducing the unstable AI chip into Sharon, and his actions after that.

Well... what little I've been able to turn up suggests that Marge Gueldoa was, in addition to being Sharon's lead developer, at least a little in love with Sharon (or what Sharon represented). He drops a hint about his motives earlier on, when he first receives the chip and comments on how he takes exception to Aristotle's view that the mind (Aristotle's treatise Peri Psyche actually called this the soul, though the actual meaning is more like the fundamental essence of a living thing rather than a separate spiritual body) could not exist independently of a body. (Aristotle actually goes further, suggesting that the soul is the fundamental condition to truly be alive, and that it's impossible to have a soul without a body, a body without a soul, or a body with the wrong type of soul.)

In that light, the reason Marge was so determined to see Sharon's system completed by any means necessary is he probably felt he was about to prove that the self (or "soul") could be an existence independent of a body. Sharon would be, by Marge's terms, a truly living being that possessed a soul but no true body.

Thematically, it has a lot in common with Ghost in the Shell's notions of whether or not the human self can exist once the body is no longer actually human at all... or is entirely absent.

[Nekko Basara]

It's funny you should mention that, because "A Sai En" always makes me think of Kenji Kawai's "Making of a Cyborg." So, to me, both scenes of an emerging artificial being share a similar soundtrack.

Really appreciate the background!

[Seto Kaiba]

It's funny you should mention that, because "A Sai En" always makes me think of Kenji Kawai's "Making of a Cyborg." So, to me, both scenes of an emerging artificial being share a similar soundtrack.

*nods*

I've run across a little bit about the aftermath of the Sharon Apple incident... apparently she really managed to turn people against virtuoids, to the point that her music was banned for a few years and responsive virtuoids were legislated out of service.

[Marzan]

It's funny you should mention that, because "A Sai En" always makes me think of Kenji Kawai's "Making of a Cyborg." So, to me, both scenes of an emerging artificial being share a similar soundtrack.

Always though the same thing.

[Nekko Basara]

This may have been brought up before (I did read some old miclone threads), but why does the Frontier fleet have Zentraedi citizens in non-miclone form? From the perspective of a space fleet with limited resources (space, food), that just seems insane.

(I'll concede that it's easy to tend the hippo-cows when they are the size of guinea pigs to you, but when you have to eat a couple for every meal, it seems like the benefits cancel out.)

Edited July 2, 2014 by Nekko Basara

[VF5SS]

Verisimilitude.

[Nekko Basara]

I think I've been veefed.

[VF5SS]

You could argue that people should be allowed to live as they want even on a colony fleet. The Macross 7 fleet managed to survive having Milia The President as their mayor so I think Frontier can handle one small segment of Zentradi.

[Nekko Basara]

She had a 100% approval rating!

[Seto Kaiba]

This may have been brought up before (I did read some old miclone threads), but why does the Frontier fleet have Zentraedi citizens in non-miclone form? From the perspective of a space fleet with limited resources (space, food), that just seems insane.

(I'll concede that it's easy to tend the hippo-cows when they are the size of guinea pigs to you, but when you have to eat a couple for every meal, it seems like the benefits cancel out.)

Dunno... but they certainly offer some practical benefits when it comes to handling large livestock, wouldn't you say? A hippocow's bunny-sized to them. They probably have other uses in terms of heavy labor that would otherwise have to be done by destroids or heavy and cumbersome construction equipment.

[frothymug]

I would imagine that you want to present a freedom of lifestyle to the fleet colonists. Plus, the Frontier fleet life support system was nowhere near its capacity. It was only when they sustained heavy damage from Vajra attacks that they forced the Zentradi to miclone themselves to make sure the ecosystem remained strong enough to support everyone. You can see the benefits of letting them live in their natural state, as Seto already mentioned.