The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

EXACTLY.

lol. your avatar makes that statement work Don't mess with our love life Kaki!

Edited October 17, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

just wanted to comment: (please forgive i'm a noob with keen observation curiosity)

Hikaru's radar threw me off since the missile line was straight with no bends or curves on the HUD at the point it hit Kaki.

i was re-watching DYRL. In the opening sequence, Hikaru's radar shows the reaction warheads bending in trajectory in the HUD contrasting with the beams fired in defense from the enemy regults. (heartbeat scene)

The contrasts in speed between the beams and warheads also played a part for a need in confirmation.

Finally, Commander Max was the lead in a tri-formation w/ kaki taking the rear right (wingman) which brought about initial surprise it was a missile based on the properties of missile/beams of the opening scene. (until Seto's photoshop evidence and sketchley pointed out the elongated line of trajectory and possible radar limitations)

Edited October 17, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Seto Kaiba]

thanks Seto Kaiba, that's why i posted this in the noob section and i didn't further the post in the Macross Chronicle thread. (btw, i wouldn't think your post could be taken as rude until you mentioned it )

of course a noob like me would never see the flash of blue light going though kaki as a missile... and NO, i am not questioning validity of the chronicles nor the translations work... (which, I wouldn't even have a question of curiosity, if i didn't have english access by sketchley's great translation work. please don't feel offended.)

No worries, that's what the thread's for. (As far as the rudeness thing, my kind of dry manner tends to get interpreted as snide a lot... so I wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't trying to be.)

Personally, I'd never really given that much thought to the how of Kakizaki's death... I'd always focused more on the suddenness of it. I had always assumed it was a missile, since there wasn't the characteristic streak of light sketchley mentioned, and every energy weapon in DYRL was "color coded for your convenience". It never occurred to me for an instant that you might question the validity of Chronicle, so no worries there. There's often not much coverage for the fiddly little details, so having ANY source that gives them is kind of nice on its own. I suppose I have sketchley to blame for me finally caving and buying the revised edition of Chronicle too... the nifty tidbits here and there that he turns up got me wondering what tidbits were being missed out in the sheets he wasn't translating. My friends are only too happy he motivated me into getting the new version, but my wallet's a little unhappy about it...

($119.19 for shipping? Bloody hell...)

just wanted to comment: (please forgive i'm a noob with keen observation curiosity)

Hikaru's radar threw me off since the missile line was straight with no bends or curves on the HUD at the point it hit Kaki.

i was re-watching DYRL. In the opening sequence, Hikaru's radar shows the reaction warheads bending in trajectory in the HUD contrasting with the beams fired in defense from the enemy regults. (heartbeat scene)

The contrasts in speed between the beams and warheads also played a part for a need in confirmation.

's far as tracking missiles on the radar, I'd take that first scene with a heaping mountain of salt... they were shooting at targets that were a good ways off, so the missiles naturally tracked more slowly across the screen. The engagement with Milia was at really short range... close enough that for the bulk of it, the two pilots could easily have exchanged rude hand gestures if they'd been so inclined, and much closer than any dogfight would happen at in the modern world.

That's what I thought, so the VF-1J Hikaru Strike set is non-cannon.

Got it, thanks!

It's been used for a cover piece in Macross Chronicle twice, I think...

[VF-15 Banshee]

Hmm, I wonder how they'd celebrate Halloween on the Megaroad-01?

[DuelGundam2099]

Was Ai-kun based on any real life animals? For some reason I keep thinking he looks like a squirrel.

[skullmilitia]

I dunno, but I want one- minus the red lobster future.

[Scyla]

Was Ai-kun based on any real life animals? For some reason I keep thinking he looks like a squirrel.

I think he looks like Carbuncle from Final Fantasy VIII.

Also adorable.

[SuperSenpai]

Just finished watching the Frontier movies. Can someone explain to me what happened at the end of Wings of Goodbye when Alto was doing his colored sky writing routine? Where did he go? Did they just fold away somewhere?

[Gubaba]

Did they just fold away somewhere?

Yes.

[VF-15 Banshee]

They folded away and we not not whence they go or whence they cometh.

[Gubaba]

However, there was a bit more info added at the Crossover Live... http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=38508&p=1061384

[SuperSenpai]

So what was up with his colored sky writing thing? What was he doing there?

[Andras]

Is there any info on the 4 barrel gatlings slung under the left wing and left hand of the VF-1 Supers in this art?

[Mr March]

Those look very similar to the large gatling gun featured on the SDP-1 Stampede Valkyrie. Perhaps the gun was originally developed for the VF-1 Valkyrie but got dropped and the concept art was turned into the Stampede Valkyrie?

[Andras]

Thanks, I kind of thought of it as a pre-Stampede configuration also.

This is an image from Macross Design Works, does the text give a description of the 6 missiles in each leg bay? They are bigger then the regular micromissiles, but much smaller then the high maneuver medium range missiles from M:+. There's no way 6 of those could fit in each leg.

[Mr March]

Not sure about the text itself, but these are described as 12 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles in the Macross Compendium for the VF-19 Custom. I would say the anime magic involved in fitting the missiles inside the legs of the VF-19 Custom is no more absurd than any of the other anime magic we've seen in Macross before or since.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is an image from Macross Design Works, does the text give a description of the 6 missiles in each leg bay? They are bigger then the regular micromissiles, but much smaller then the high maneuver medium range missiles from M:+. There's no way 6 of those could fit in each leg.

Yeah, it does... though it's worth remembering that (at least according to Master File) the actual engines are relatively compact and thus leave a not insignificant bit of empty space inside the legs of the larger Valkyries for things like ordinance. It'd be a tight fit, for sure, but not entirely outside the realm of possibility. That's what the bulge on the side of the leg is for, after all.

[skullmilitia]

Why do they continually make series, then change the story and create an OAV?

[Seto Kaiba]

Why do they continually make series, then change the story and create an OAV?

's kind of a thing in the industry in general... the compilation movie phenomenon has been around for ages. Macross is kind of unusual in that the do-over isn't just a retread of the story in a condensed form, but usually really mixes stuff up and approaches the story from a completely different angle than the series did. Things like the Macross Plus movie are more in line with a more traditional compilation movie like the original Gundam films and the Zeta Gundam: A New Translation stuff, where it's mostly the same footage but the order of events is mixed up a little and some new material gets added to flesh things out or emphasize different aspects of the original story. They get to put out something new, and putting a new spin (whether a minor or major one) on an existing story takes less effort than creating a completely new story from the ground up... letting them go back and correct the parts they didn't like, or approach the story and character relationships differently, and so on.

If you want the most cynical answer... that'd be "because it sells".

[Gubaba]

Why do they continually make series, then change the story and create an OAV?

Hi! You must be new!

It's just the way the biz works...

[skullmilitia]

Lol, thanks for the answer, it's not new to me , it just seems overly used by the Macross makers.

The whole Frontier thing is what gets me, and who decides which ending is what the base will take as official.

In Frontiers case it's obviously the theatrical version is what seems to be taken as the cannon for now.

[Scyla]

Well nothing and everything is cannon... ....except Macross 2.

If I remember correctly Veef was talking about how the DYRL movie was a movie about events that happened in the Macross universe (based on an interview with Kawamori). So why not apply the same logic to the Frontier show and movies?

I don't want to say much more because a) I haven't seen the Frontier movies so I cannot make adequate guesses and b) I'm not sure I can remember everything correctly that was brought up during this podcast.

[skullmilitia]

Yeah I have the magazine with the Kawamori interview about the movies being fictional stories blah blah blah.

But obviously the fan base, and advertisers have chosen the theatrical version Frontier as the cannon.

Otherwise why make the videos about Alto trying to return to the frontier fleet.

[Seto Kaiba]

Lol, thanks for the answer, it's not new to me , it just seems overly used by the Macross makers.

The whole Frontier thing is what gets me, and who decides which ending is what the base will take as official.

In Frontiers case it's obviously the theatrical version is what seems to be taken as the cannon for now.

Eh? They've only done it, what, three times in total? Macross: Do You Remember Love?, the Macross Plus "movie", and the Macross Frontier films. It's usually one and done with them, Gundam's indulged in it more, and with a lot less original material thrown in the mix. You really can't count the Macross II: the Movie thing, because that's not really a compilation movie or a re-envisioning of an existing story, it's literally just the OVA's episodes put together without the opening and closing credits.

Yeah I have the magazine with the Kawamori interview about the movies being fictional stories blah blah blah.

But obviously the fan base, and advertisers have chosen the theatrical version Frontier as the cannon.

Otherwise why make the videos about Alto trying to return to the frontier fleet.

Yeah, Kawamori says that it's a Schrodinger's continuity sort of scenario, but for a long time now we've had the official line that DYRL was really just a movie within the Macross universe... and the official encyclopedia Macross Chronicle has consistently gone with the stance that the TV series version of any given Macross story with multiple versions is the "correct" one for purposes of continuity and so on. It treats the movies and so on as being an existence separate from the actual official continuity of Macross.

However... that doesn't mean that everything in the movies doesn't exist. There are plenty of cases where things from the movie versions have been established to also exist in the series continuity. Like how the DYRL VF-1 was identified as being a later block upgrade of the VF-1 Valkyrie, Exsedol's DYRL appearance in Macross 7 was chalked up to him restoring himself to his original giant stature and re-modifying his body makeup because of his fear of losing his memories, and so on and so forth. Macross Frontier's "Missing Birthday" and "Fastest Delivery", for instance, showed that Zentradi were using the series and DYRL versions of some of their equipment side by side. DYRL aesthetics seem to have supplanted a lot of original series ones in places with similar excuses. The Variable Fighter Master File book for the VF-25 does something similar with the YF-29, though that book is, by its own disclaimer, not part of the official Macross setting.

I think the fans just like to play with the Macross Frontier movie ending more for fan-works because it's more open-ended than the series ending.

[skullmilitia]

What about 7?

Macross 7

Macross 7 Dynamite

Macross 7 Encore

( this is the only I haven't seen other then episodic pieces. )

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the time!

[Seto Kaiba]

What about 7?

Macross 7

Macross 7 Dynamite

Macross 7 Encore

( this is the only I haven't seen other then episodic pieces. )

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the time!

Huh? I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure if you're saying you've never seen Macross 7 in general, or you've never seen the OVAs and aren't sure how they relate to the series. (It's probably just me being all caffeine-crash-y.)

The greater Macross 7 story arc doesn't include any recap titles or compilation movies... the Macross 7 OVAs generally fit somewhere within the actual run of the series itself, like side stories or extra-long episodes. Macross 7 Encore is two sort of "spare" episodes ("On Stage" and "Which One Do You Love?") that aren't explicitly placed in the continuity, but seem to fit smoothly between episodes of the series around Ep40 or so. The unaired episode "Fleet of the Strongest Women" is basically one long deleted scene. Macross 7: the Galaxy is Calling Me! is a "movie" that functions as an overly long television episode between episodes 42 and 43. Macross Dynamite 7 is a completely separate story set the year after the conclusion of the Macross 7 main series.

Pretty much the only "recap" titles we've had are DYRL, the Macross Plus movie, and the two Macross Frontier movies... and the only one that didn't completely change the story up was the Macross Plus one.

[Tochiro]

Pretty much the only "recap" titles we've had are DYRL, the Macross Plus movie, and the two Macross Frontier movies... and the only one that didn't completely change the story up was the Macross Plus one.

But wait, what about FB7?!?!...j/k

Lol, thanks for the answer, it's not new to me , it just seems overly used by the Macross makers.

The whole Frontier thing is what gets me, and who decides which ending is what the base will take as official.

In Frontiers case it's obviously the theatrical version is what seems to be taken as the cannon for now.

In my opinion, once one gets over the restrictions enforced by the need for a 100% established 'canon' the benefits of Kawamori's approach are actually pretty good. Why settle for the tv OR the movie when you can have the best elements from both! Plus, fans get to see more of the characters they love. Also, for OVA's/movies theres nearly always a theatrical release involved, meaning lucrative (impulse purchasing) merchandising involved.

I think the fans just like to play with the Macross Frontier movie ending more for fan-works because it's more open-ended than the series ending.

The fans certainly had a lot of fun with that ending, yep. Although, now that its been confirmed that Alto is alive and in trouble, I don't think its a stretch to conclude that the movie ending is the one thats going to be referenced (dare I say built upon?) in the future (I refuse to use the word canon though, after all, this IS Kawamori we are talking about).

[Mr March]

In my opinion, once one gets over the restrictions enforced by the need for a 100% established 'canon' the benefits of Kawamori's approach are actually pretty good. Why settle for the tv OR the movie when you can have the best elements from both! Plus, fans get to see more of the characters they love. Also, for OVA's/movies theres nearly always a theatrical release involved, meaning lucrative (impulse purchasing) merchandising involved.

This is one of the aspects of the re-imaginings via film/OVA that I always thought was a major reason why it was done in anime. Creatively it makes sense for the writers of the property. However, it also makes sense financially and not just as a sequel/subsequent release. Because the characters and settings remain the same, there is the opportunity to attract a type of consumer uninterested in the storytelling of the original but who might be interested in the sames characters/setting told a "better" way. I know I've often had numerous debates with fans that argue the merit/worth of one over the other to a significant degree. Makes me wonder that divisivness must be intentional on the part of the creators to grab various demographics. Like a happy ending? Watch the TV series. Hate happy endings? Watch our film version. A bit simplistic, but you get the idea

[skullmilitia]

But wait, what about FB7?!?!...j/k In my opinion, once one gets over the restrictions enforced by the need for a 100% established 'canon' the benefits of Kawamori's approach are actually pretty good. Why settle for the tv OR the movie when you can have the best elements from both! Plus, fans get to see more of the characters they love. Also, for OVA's/movies theres nearly always a theatrical release involved, meaning lucrative (impulse purchasing) merchandising involved. The fans certainly had a lot of fun with that ending, yep. Although, now that its been confirmed that Alto is alive and in trouble, I don't think its a stretch to conclude that the movie ending is the one thats going to be referenced (dare I say built upon?) in the future (I refuse to use the word canon though, after all, this IS Kawamori we are talking about).

Ya know, one could say that Alto already returned and Sheryl is healed, because you take the ending of the WOG,

Then add the last few minutes of the series, Alto's back and Ranka has moved the fold bacteria to Sheryl's gut.

Of course that doesn't explain how the Frontier became the queen, but then when the sack of blob Galaxy conspirators are killed

It magically disappears and Alto is standing on the 100% Vajra queen.

Lol, maybe I should just leave it alone, it is what it is!

[Seto Kaiba]

Ya know, one could say that Alto already returned and Sheryl is healed, because you take the ending of the WOG,

Then add the last few minutes of the series, Alto's back and Ranka has moved the fold bacteria to Sheryl's gut.

Of course that doesn't explain how the Frontier became the queen, but then when the sack of blob Galaxy conspirators are killed

It magically disappears and Alto is standing on the 100% Vajra queen.

Lol, maybe I should just leave it alone, it is what it is!

I've always felt the best explanation of the Frontier movies is that, like DYRL, they're propaganda-based movies released in-universe. In the series, the Macross Frontier fleet's administration (parts of it, anyway) were complicit in or actively a part of the conspiracy to basically overthrow the New UN Gov't using the Vajra and forcibly unite humanity into the implant network Grace had created. The Macross Frontier movies shifted virtually all the blame for the conspiracy and the ensuing war with the Vajra onto Macross Galaxy's administration, taking pains to make both SMS and the New UN Spacy forces look good. They tactfully gloss over the involvement of a ranking NUNS officer and SMS's owner, and reinvent history a little so that the Frontier fleet's government and military realize something is badly wrong much earlier on and take preventative action instead of being duped almost to the bitter end and having to have rogue SMS forces pull their arses out of the fire.

[Scyla]

I like to think about it in a way similar to the Inglorious Basterds movie. There are some "real" events that happened and documented (like the Third Reich/The Vajra encounter with the 25th fleet) where they spun a story around it.

To this point it is not important if Alto survived or not what is important is the outcome of the story. For example that humanity won and the Zentradi where integrated into human society. If that was not the case then the sequels to SDF:M/DYRL would be wrong.

So if Alto would be the protagonist of a Macross Frontier sequel that has a noteworthy impact on the Macross universe then it would be a problem if he was dead after the second movie. But even that might not be the case because of the example stated above.

Bad stuff happens when someone tries to rework a fictional universe to a fitting continuity. The Star Wars prequels/OT and the Legend of Zelda series being two examples where the one is really bad (SW) and kinda funny (Zelda) when you see what is developing around that. Like I love the discussions around the split time line in Zelda and I hate seeing Hayden Christensen at the end of RotJ.

So I favor the Macross canon in some way over ways to approach this topic.

[sketchley]

(I refuse to use the word canon though, after all, this IS Kawamori we are talking about).

People actually should not be using canon to describe what is or is not Macross. "Official Setting" (capitalization optional) is the term used by the people behind Macross.

I kinda like it because of its nuance of a story's "starting point" (as opposed to the canon's nuance of "this happened"). And the one thing that the diverse interpretations of the different Macross stories all have in common is the starting point.

[Tochiro]

Sketchley - Excellent point.

Skullmilitia - I was never convinced by the theory that the words of the song shooting star were supposed to reflect what happened after the movie. Having said that, the 'story' of Macross Crossover 30 (such that it was) did at least show what was going on in Sheryls head while she was unconscious and played a brief audio call for help from Alto (fold transmission) to show that he was in fact alive after the events of the movie (if stranded and sounding very very panicked). As far as I know, Crossover 30, despite being an event, is part of the official setting - I certainly havent heard otherwise for it, or the Musiculture, or Macros 30, etc. But we shall have to wait and see what comes next I suppose.

[skullmilitia]

I wouldn't mind at least a tie-in to finalize the frontier story.

I get the feeling if / when the next series comes to fruition it's not going

To include much in the way of frontier characters.

Although SDFM to M7 makes the point that they could include characters from Frontier

As higher ranking members of new fleet groups.

[Seto Kaiba]

People actually should not be using canon to describe what is or is not Macross. "Official Setting" (capitalization optional) is the term used by the people behind Macross.

I kinda like it because of its nuance of a story's "starting point" (as opposed to the canon's nuance of "this happened"). And the one thing that the diverse interpretations of the different Macross stories all have in common is the starting point.

Eh... that's a bit wide of the mark, ain't it? The term "official setting" is only used in Variable Fighter Master File, and only then as a way of explaining that the content of those books (which are written from an in-universe perspective) is not reflective of the official Macross chronology or its technical setting. The very way it's used implies the existence of a canon... a list of approved works and official information that is considered true or authentically part of the official Macross setting that Master File doesn't entirely fit with.

If you wanna call it the "official line" or something else, that doesn't change that they've put a considerable amount of effort over several decades into defining what's what in rather specific terms. Going back as far as Macross: Perfect Memory, we've got official timelines and tech specs and the story pieces that fill in the gaps in the series and tell us what happened and how... even during the timeskip. Macross II's creators did their own in B-Club Magazine Vol.79's big piece about VF History and in Entertainment Bible 51: Macross II. Kawamori and co. did their own version in the Macross: A Future Chronicle thing that was put out with Macross Plus, that defined how DYRL fit with everything else. Hell, look no further than Macross Chronicle... the 1,600, going on 2,500+, page monument to definitively setting down what's what and exactly how things happened in the most unambiguous terms possible.

Kawamori's made it clear he doesn't want to be bound to every little detail of his previous work while conceiving the next chapter of Macross, or waste time trying to rationalize away every little example of zeerust or changes in aesthetic, but there's no denying that there IS a canon at work here... and they've put a LOT of effort into its care and evolution (and a lot more into making us all buy it in 32 page installments at ~¥700 a pop).

Personally, I like Kawamori's approach... there is a canon, but he's not going to sweat the little details when conceiving his next installment of the story.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Seto Kaiba