The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[TehPW]

There is an unspoken reason why costs would be prohibitive to field the VF-22 in large numbers: Proprietary technology that requires specialized (Private Contractors) technicians to do certain tasks. In RL examples, modern Farming Equipment (and some big rig trucks) are examples of how people curse the products they own because they themselves aint allowed to fix their gear. The F-35 JSF or the infamous LCS Freedom and Independence-class ships are also examples of that plot twist (I'm so glad I retired before the transition of legacy Hornets to Lightnings occurred as I heard horror stories about F-35 Peculiar Support Equipment).

Training is going to specific, not matter what platform the location requires (and unless it's proven that its economical to ship trainees across worlds/systems for training on the end-type of unit they will work on, each world or colony will do their own thing for training (likely following what happens on Earth for example of procedure first before deviations). It's not gonna matter if AD3 Jones on Macross Butthead is trained to put A into B using the C tool and AD3 Maxipad on the planet Beavis is trained to put A into B using his face. Both Jetmechs are gonna do it their training, originally based on Earth but adapted to their unique location.

here's a random thought: Fasanomics. Some sick &^%$ should create a list NECs (Navy Enlisted Codes*) for each Valkyrie engine currently or previously in production. Would that require 4 or 5 digits?

* NECs are arguable the same as MOS's but ridiculous more specific (closer to the AF than anything) but day to day, you're still AD3 (or Petty Officer) Jones and Maxipad, when being mustered at 7am. Example, I held like 6 or 7 NECs in my career, being trained on *deep breath* Cyrogenics, Shore GPUs, Shore Hydraulics, Sea GPUs, Shore Towing and Pushbacks and Sea Crash Cranes (both CV and LH).

Edited November 18, 2022 by TehPW
High-Year Tenure is presumable still a thing in the Macross worlds, just like in Real Life....

[azrael]

12 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

But it does factor into increased costs since the YF-21's design compared to other VFs, including its competitor, the YF-19 is quite different in configuration from other more conventional designed VFs in layout  since I'm pretty sure that mechanics might have trouble unlearning and then relearning how to service components such as the engines and the legs.* Not to mention more newer jigs for maintenance that cannot be used for legacy VFs compared to the YF-19

*Especially since in the YF-21, the engines and legs are separate from each other unlike other VF designs.

As the others have said, retraining and new maintenance equipment are factored in/negligible to the costs. That comes with the cost of upgrading.

What's not factored is what may not be apparent. Proprietary or hard-to-source parts, downtime between usage, software updates, vendor servicing, etc.

28 minutes ago, TehPW said:

There is an unspoken reason why costs would be prohibitive to field the VF-22 in large numbers: Proprietary technology that requires specialized (Private Contractors) technicians to do certain tasks. In RL examples, modern Farming Equipment (and some big rig trucks) are examples of how people curse the products they own because they themselves aint allowed to fix their gear. The F-35 JSF or the infamous LCS Freedom and Independence-class ships are also examples of that plot twist (I'm so glad I retired before the transition of legacy Hornets to Lightnings occurred as I heard horror stories about F-35 Peculiar Support Equipment).

☝️There are real-life examples where maintenance of a machine costs more (and produces more headaches) than the machine itself over time. More so in recent years...

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, TehPW said:

There is an unspoken reason why costs would be prohibitive to field the VF-22 in large numbers: Proprietary technology that requires specialized (Private Contractors) technicians to do certain tasks. In RL examples, modern Farming Equipment (and some big rig trucks) are examples of how people curse the products they own because they themselves aint allowed to fix their gear. The F-35 JSF or the infamous LCS Freedom and Independence-class ships are also examples of that plot twist (I'm so glad I retired before the transition of legacy Hornets to Lightnings occurred as I heard horror stories about F-35 Peculiar Support Equipment).

Considering that the YF-19/YF-21 and VF-19/VF-22 were developed at a time when operation by emigrant governments and emigrant fleets was expected to be the norm, it seems unlikely that that the New UN Forces would have tolerated having a main fighter that was dependent on specialized contractors for maintenance.

 

8 minutes ago, azrael said:

What's not factored is what may not be apparent. Proprietary or hard-to-source parts, downtime between usage, software updates, vendor servicing, etc.

☝️There are real-life examples where maintenance of a machine costs more (and produces more headaches) than the machine itself over time.

We do know about one hard-to-source part that is unique to the VF-22.  The ultra-high purity fold carbon in its Inertia Vector Control System.  This was noted to even have been an obstacle to the widespread adoption of the Queadluun-Rau the system was borrowed from.

Of course, what ultimately killed both the VF-19 and VF-22 was a combination of revised arms export restrictions prompted by a rise in anti-government activity and the Sharon Apple incident, the high initial and operating costs of both aircraft, and the loss of control accidents in early model conversion training exercises due to the excessive g-loads the fighters imposed on their pilots.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of course, what ultimately killed both the VF-19 and VF-22 was a combination of revised arms export restrictions prompted by a rise in anti-government activity and the Sharon Apple incident, the high initial and operating costs of both aircraft, and the loss of control accidents in early model conversion training exercises due to the excessive g-loads the fighters imposed on their pilots.

My personal opinion (for whatever weight it carries) is that the demands the planes put on their respective pilots and how hard they were to control was probably the most pressing concern. A brand new fighter that is high performance and that powerful (particularly in the YF-19's case) does little good wen it cripples/ kills most who tried to fly it. I know they dialed it down for the VF-19 series, but it still ended up making the EX-Gear necessary for future craft.

^I say the previous knowing that I'm probably off, haven't read the Macross Chronicle sections on it, and a bunch of other stuff I forgot/ didn't realize/ didn't come with my UnHappy Meal©.

[SebastianP]

OK, so a short question:

What kinds of music would you like to see represented in Macross that we haven't seen yet? I know Kawamori tries to change things up some, but Big West has to be able to sell the music so the main part of it can't be too out there, but I figure there are plenty of stuff that could work as one offs for an episode.

So here are my ideas:

1. An actual space opera, Complete with a soprano singing in Italian. (Brought to you by one too many listenings to Libera Me From Hell from the Gurren Lagann soundtrack...)

2. The Full Size Zentraedi Army Choir singing glorious battle hymns.  (Brought to you by one too many listenings to "Battle Hymn of the Republic" performed by various choirs.)

3. A Babymetal band. (This one might actually work as a centerpiece for a whole show...)

4. All the idols are down with the flu, and the colony is under attack. It's up to a plucky high school Karaoke club to step up to the plate. What they lack in training and raw skill, they'll make up for in enthusiasm, or die trying! No flashy holo-costumes or stage animations, just five girls and a boom box sharing a microphone. Bonus points if it *doesn't* end in them being recruited as professional singers right off the bat.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

My personal opinion (for whatever weight it carries) is that the demands the planes put on their respective pilots and how hard they were to control was probably the most pressing concern. A brand new fighter that is high performance and that powerful (particularly in the YF-19's case) does little good wen it cripples/ kills most who tried to fly it. I know they dialed it down for the VF-19 series, but it still ended up making the EX-Gear necessary for future craft.

When you think about it logically, you're probably right.

All of the other deal-breakers in the Project Super Nova VFs are only deal-breakers if the aircraft is actually flyable.  If (almost) nobody can actually fly it, the other roadblocks like its high initial and operating costs, arms export restrictions, etc. mean very little.

(Though it was the ISC, moreso than EX-Gear, that was the "fix" for the excessive g-load problem.)

 

 

39 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

OK, so a short question:

What kinds of music would you like to see represented in Macross that we haven't seen yet? I know Kawamori tries to change things up some, but Big West has to be able to sell the music so the main part of it can't be too out there, but I figure there are plenty of stuff that could work as one offs for an episode.

As we've already done solo jpop idols, idol groups, and more than one rock band if you count the manga side stories, I think the next logical port of call is probably metal.

Japan's got its own local flavor of metal (Kawaiicore) and a few past anime titles like Detroit Metal City have explored metal as a musical genre.  That said, it'd really depend on what the balance of action vs. music was going to be.  Kawaiicore metal would be better for a more music-focused series, where I'd say something like power metal would work better for more of an action focus.  

If you were willing to let the music take a back seat or do another virtuoid idol, you could go with something more action-friendly like eurobeat.  

Swing might work too, if it were really uptempo.

There was a time I would have said jazz, but Mobile Suit Gundam Thunderbolt was so incredibly pretentious about it that it ruined the idea for me forever.

An idea that probably wouldn't work that I'd love to see attempted anyway would be someone doing a series or side story with musical comedy... a space-future version of Weird Al, Tom Lehrer, or Spike Jones.  

[pengbuzz]

21 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

When you think about it logically, you're probably right.

All of the other deal-breakers in the Project Super Nova VFs are only deal-breakers if the aircraft is actually flyable.  If (almost) nobody can actually fly it, the other roadblocks like its high initial and operating costs, arms export restrictions, etc. mean very little.

(Though it was the ISC, moreso than EX-Gear, that was the "fix" for the excessive g-load problem.)

 

Okay, though I imagine the EX-Gear still helped.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay, though I imagine the EX-Gear still helped.

It did... though you could say it's a further evolution of the movable seat that was installed in the YF-19.

The YF-19 had a movable seat that could rotate a bit to help pilots cope with lateral g-forces.  The EX-Gear on 5th Gen VFs adjusts the pilot's posture to optimize blood flow during high g-force loads to prevent blood from pooling in the extremities and reduce the risk of G-LOC.  The 5th Gen VFs main anti-g mechanism is the Inertia Store Converter that takes inertial forces and displaces them into higher dimensional space temporarily.

[SebastianP]

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As we've already done solo jpop idols, idol groups, and more than one rock band if you count the manga side stories, I think the next logical port of call is probably metal.

Japan's got its own local flavor of metal (Kawaiicore) and a few past anime titles like Detroit Metal City have explored metal as a musical genre.  That said, it'd really depend on what the balance of action vs. music was going to be.  Kawaiicore metal would be better for a more music-focused series, where I'd say something like power metal would work better for more of an action focus.  

If you were willing to let the music take a back seat or do another virtuoid idol, you could go with something more action-friendly like eurobeat.  

Swing might work too, if it were really uptempo.

There was a time I would have said jazz, but Mobile Suit Gundam Thunderbolt was so incredibly pretentious about it that it ruined the idea for me forever.

An idea that probably wouldn't work that I'd love to see attempted anyway would be someone doing a series or side story with musical comedy... a space-future version of Weird Al, Tom Lehrer, or Spike Jones.  

Kawaiicore sounds like it's the name for the genre that Babymetal belongs to.

What if the Hoary Froating Head turns his trollface to MAX and goes "boy band and all-female fighter squadron?" He said somewhere that one of the reasons they haven't done another male vocalist is that anyone they picked would have to compete with Basara's towering reputation which wouldn't be fair to either of them, 

Also, another absolute troll idea: Straight up Disney-style musical, complete with character songs for everyone. 

Seriously though, I want to see some more random expressions of culture that aren't the focus of an entire show. Opera, Choral, Musical, Classical music (can you make fold waves with only a musical instrument if you put Fold Quartz into it?), a flash mob concert, Zentraedi trying to create something that is theirs, other forms of *art* in general (I loved that Alto was part of a Kabuki family, though it was a bit aggressively Japanese... hence why I'd like to see classical opera surviving in the Macross-verse). 

 

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It did... though you could say it's a further evolution of the movable seat that was installed in the YF-19.

The YF-19 had a movable seat that could rotate a bit to help pilots cope with lateral g-forces.  The EX-Gear on 5th Gen VFs adjusts the pilot's posture to optimize blood flow during high g-force loads to prevent blood from pooling in the extremities and reduce the risk of G-LOC.  The 5th Gen VFs main anti-g mechanism is the Inertia Store Converter that takes inertial forces and displaces them into higher dimensional space temporarily.

I wonder if a similar device could do the same for infrared signatures (heat) that would give away a stealth fighter?

(makes notes for VF-113)

[SebastianP]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if a similar device could do the same for infrared signatures (heat) that would give away a stealth fighter?

(makes notes for VF-113)

Given that stealth in space is impossible without such a device, but several of the VFs from the 2040s era were explicitly stealth fighters anyway? They either must have already had it back then, or there's such a massive continuity hole all of Macross just got swallowed up. So even if there's no explicit mention, the show doesn't work unless the thing exists.

Also, active stealth is supposedly good enough by the fifth generation that designing according to passive stealth rules is unnecessary. (Read: Kawamori was bored with trying to make VFs that conformed to stealth rules and hand-waved it.)

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if a similar device could do the same for infrared signatures (heat) that would give away a stealth fighter?

53 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Given that stealth in space is impossible without such a device, but several of the VFs from the 2040s era were explicitly stealth fighters anyway? They either must have already had it back then, or there's such a massive continuity hole all of Macross just got swallowed up. So even if there's no explicit mention, the show doesn't work unless the thing exists.

Infrared would be a much bigger challenge to mask than protecting the cockpit from excessive g-forces, since you'd have to worry about the entire aircraft and the exhaust flow that will naturally be VERY hot because it's fusion plasma.  There is currently no infrared active stealth system in the setting.

Infrared detectors in Macross have the same limitations as real world systems, so it's not as big a problem as you would think for Valkyries except at short ranges thanks to VFs being relatively small in spacecraft terms.  The few times the subject has been broached, the answer given has been that VFs employ heat sequestration techniques to reduce their infrared emissions in combat.  Their fuel is a cryogenic material so it's also used as a coolant in space operations.  Waste heat is captured in the coolant and stored in the insulated fuel tanks throughout the airframe until it's either cycled into the reactor or combat ends and the Valkyrie switches to radiative cooling.  This approach is described on the VF-25, which makes use of its wing tanks for heat sequestration during combat and then uses its wing surface as a radiator for radiative cooling after combat ends.

EDIT: Of course, the difficulties in hiding the heat emissions of a Valkyrie at short range are the reason that infrared is the dominant guidance technology used in micro missiles...

 

53 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

Also, active stealth is supposedly good enough by the fifth generation that designing according to passive stealth rules is unnecessary. (Read: Kawamori was bored with trying to make VFs that conformed to stealth rules and hand-waved it.)

In-universe, it's something that goes back and forth like a pendulum.

Radar and active stealth technology are competing technologies.  When radar technology is outpacing active stealth, you see an emphasis on passively stealthy designs.  When active stealth is outpacing radar technology, you see less passively stealthy designs.  

Macross Plus was set at a point in history where 2nd Generation active stealth technology was losing ground to radar technology, so the VFs of the 2030s were designed around a passively stealthy profile and that carried over to the new designs of the 2040s.  The 3rd Generation active stealth that was prototyped for the YF-19 and YF-21 one-upped current generation radar technology and the increasing generator power of the late 4th and early 5th Generation VFs enabled active stealth to have an edge over radar systems.  There is some evidence in the VF-31's shift back towards internally carried weapons and low observable stealth design that suggests radar might be catching up to 3rd Generation active stealth in the 2060s.  

Of course, active stealth has its own problems in that it's active cancellation based using destructive interference to zero the amplitude of enemy radar pulses and thus requires a LOT of power.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I know they dialed it down for the VF-19 series, but it still ended up making the EX-Gear necessary for future craft.

Also, the delay before the toned-down, more-controllable VF-19 variants came out left an opening for the VF-171 to exploit. Particularly as even after the VF-19 stopped killing pilots, it still had to overcome a reputation and was still pretty expensive.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, JB0 said:

Also, the delay before the toned-down, more-controllable VF-19 variants came out left an opening for the VF-171 to exploit. Particularly as even after the VF-19 stopped killing pilots, it still had to overcome a reputation and was still pretty expensive.

"Toned down" and "more controllable" are relative statements, to be sure.

It probably didn't help matters any that Shinsei Industry seemed to be working at cross purposes with itself when it came to improving the VF-19.  Efforts to improve stability and ease of control via aerodynamic refinements and flight control program updates for the airframe control AI were deployed to models that were adopting new, more powerful engines which almost certainly exacerbated the very g-load problem they were trying to fix.  Somehow, it seems like it never occurred to Shinsei Industry's engineers to dial the engine power back to make the VF-19 more controllable.

(And as a result, General Galaxy were able to steal a march on them with the VF-171 in the mid-2040s by rolling out a much less extreme 4th Generation VF that didn't have a thrust-to-weight ratio of over 10 and therefore lacked the control issues plaguing the VF-19 and VF-22.)

[JB0]

57 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"Toned down" and "more controllable" are relative statements, to be sure.

It probably didn't help matters any that Shinsei Industry seemed to be working at cross purposes with itself when it came to improving the VF-19.  Efforts to improve stability and ease of control via aerodynamic refinements and flight control program updates for the airframe control AI were deployed to models that were adopting new, more powerful engines which almost certainly exacerbated the very g-load problem they were trying to fix.  Somehow, it seems like it never occurred to Shinsei Industry's engineers to dial the engine power back to make the VF-19 more controllable.

(And as a result, General Galaxy were able to steal a march on them with the VF-171 in the mid-2040s by rolling out a much less extreme 4th Generation VF that didn't have a thrust-to-weight ratio of over 10 and therefore lacked the control issues plaguing the VF-19 and VF-22.)

Makes you wonder if maybe they needed one more meeting than they had.

 

"Hey, you hear anything about the new VF-19?"

"The guys I ran into said they're working on big avionics changes to make it more pilot-friendly."

"Huh. Wonder why no one told us a new revision was coming. Let's see if we can't get another thousand kilos of thrust in there, so the pilots can make the most of this new friendlier OS!"

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

Makes you wonder if maybe they needed one more meeting than they had.

 

"Hey, you hear anything about the new VF-19?"

"The guys I ran into said they're working on big avionics changes to make it more pilot-friendly."

"Huh. Wonder why no one told us a new revision was coming. Let's see if we can't get another thousand kilos of thrust in there, so the pilots can make the most of this new friendlier OS!"

I suspect during this time, Shinsei began investing in guacamole kiosks to deal with what was left of the pilots after trying to fly the 19...

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, JB0 said:

Makes you wonder if maybe they needed one more meeting than they had.

What's weird is that they somehow missed having that one additional meeting for nearly twenty years running.

After the New UN Forces revised its decision to adopt the VF-19A as its next main fighter and basically asked the defense industry "What else ya got?", Shinsei Industry seemingly just surrendered the field to General Galaxy and let them run off with the 4th Generation main fighter contract rather than scale back the excessive performance of the VF-19 to a more manageable level.  Even in 2058, seventeen years after the NUNS took a hard pass on the VF-19, they're still pushing the performance envelope rather than trying to make it actually flyable.  It took an original development of the Frontier Government's fleet arsenal, LAI, and the Frontier branch of Shinsei to sit down and come up with a local variant of the VF-19 that actually prioritized handling.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What's weird is that they somehow missed having that one additional meeting for nearly twenty years running.

After the New UN Forces revised its decision to adopt the VF-19A as its next main fighter and basically asked the defense industry "What else ya got?", Shinsei Industry seemingly just surrendered the field to General Galaxy and let them run off with the 4th Generation main fighter contract rather than scale back the excessive performance of the VF-19 to a more manageable level.  Even in 2058, seventeen years after the NUNS took a hard pass on the VF-19, they're still pushing the performance envelope rather than trying to make it actually flyable.  It took an original development of the Frontier Government's fleet arsenal, LAI, and the Frontier branch of Shinsei to sit down and come up with a local variant of the VF-19 that actually prioritized handling.

It's odd that Shinsei would simply let General Galaxy run them off like that, considering that the 19 and 22 were "neck and neck" in  Project Supernova. It makes me wonder if there were more skeletons in Shinsei's closet that would have been exposed than they were willing to risk ; perhaps GG got info on them that would have killed their industry ops if it were revealed? I ask that because they seemed to duck back into a corner and keep making the 19 even more unflyable than it already was, rather than risk focusing on a mainline fighter that didn't have all that "push" to it.

Also: given that the VF-171 is basically a slimmed-down VF-17 Nightmare ( http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-171.htm ), it seems that GG had something of a head-start on a fallback for a new main-line fighter insofar as they already had a platform with which to work with rather than starting "from scratch". I also would venture that since Project Supernova, the needs and req's for a new mainline fighter changed between 2040 and 2050, which would mean that they even moreso needed a fighter that the majority of NUNS could fly and not just a select few exceptional pilots.

[cheemingwan1234]

On 11/19/2022 at 4:40 AM, TehPW said:

There is an unspoken reason why costs would be prohibitive to field the VF-22 in large numbers: Proprietary technology that requires specialized (Private Contractors) technicians to do certain tasks. In RL examples, modern Farming Equipment (and some big rig trucks) are examples of how people curse the products they own because they themselves aint allowed to fix their gear. The F-35 JSF or the infamous LCS Freedom and Independence-class ships are also examples of that plot twist (I'm so glad I retired before the transition of legacy Hornets to Lightnings occurred as I heard horror stories about F-35 Peculiar Support Equipment).

Training is going to specific, not matter what platform the location requires (and unless it's proven that its economical to ship trainees across worlds/systems for training on the end-type of unit they will work on, each world or colony will do their own thing for training (likely following what happens on Earth for example of procedure first before deviations). It's not gonna matter if AD3 Jones on Macross Butthead is trained to put A into B using the C tool and AD3 Maxipad on the planet Beavis is trained to put A into B using his face. Both Jetmechs are gonna do it their training, originally based on Earth but adapted to their unique location.

here's a random thought: Fasanomics. Some sick &^%$ should create a list NECs (Navy Enlisted Codes*) for each Valkyrie engine currently or previously in production. Would that require 4 or 5 digits?

* NECs are arguable the same as MOS's but ridiculous more specific (closer to the AF than anything) but day to day, you're still AD3 (or Petty Officer) Jones and Maxipad, when being mustered at 7am. Example, I held like 6 or 7 NECs in my career, being trained on *deep breath* Cyrogenics, Shore GPUs, Shore Hydraulics, Sea GPUs, Shore Towing and Pushbacks and Sea Crash Cranes (both CV and LH).

By the way, differing proceedures from standard is how you start an accident, eventually.

*Gestures to that one airliner accident (Flight 191) where the maintenance crew did not replace the engines of that airplane involved in the accident as according to the instructions, resulting in premature cracking that leads to eventual structual damage in flight.

Edited November 21, 2022 by cheemingwan1234

[cheemingwan1234]

Over 24 hours....

Given that Gerwalk operates at low attitudes....would a canopy destruct system be needed for a Variable Fighter? I think it is necessary if something goes wrong at the attitudes that Gerwalk operates, there might not be enough time for the canopy to jettison if something goes wrong with a VF in Gerwalk mode. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by cheemingwan1234

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Over 24 hours....

There is flood control, but it's not that strict... it's measured in minutes, not days.

 

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Given that Gerwalk operates at low attitudes....would a canopy destruct system be needed for a Variable Fighter? I think it is necessary if something goes wrong at the attitudes that Gerwalk operates, there might not be enough time for the canopy to jettison if something goes wrong with a VF in Gerwalk mode. 

It's been noted in a few books going back as far as the old Sky Angels book that TTC ejection is not possible on a Variable Fighter.

The reason is simple... despite being only 10mm thick (on the VF-1), the OTM material used in the canopy's construction is much too strong for the ejection seat to be capable of breaking the canopy during an ejection sequence.  It's said that the canopy is not glass or a plasticized composite, but rather is a transparent metal (possibly the same Herculite used in starship windows).  To work around the problem, in Fighter and GERWALK mode ejections the canopy is ejected with rocket motors to ensure that it clears the seat's own flight path during an ejection.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There is flood control, but it's not that strict... it's measured in minutes, not days.

 

It's been noted in a few books going back as far as the old Sky Angels book that TTC ejection is not possible on a Variable Fighter.

The reason is simple... despite being only 10mm thick (on the VF-1), the OTM material used in the canopy's construction is much too strong for the ejection seat to be capable of breaking the canopy during an ejection sequence.  It's said that the canopy is not glass or a plasticized composite, but rather is a transparent metal (possibly the same Herculite used in starship windows).  To work around the problem, in Fighter and GERWALK mode ejections the canopy is ejected with rocket motors to ensure that it clears the seat's own flight path during an ejection.

That makes a lot of sense, given that the canopy is the only other layer underneath the heat shield that's deployed in Battroid mode that covers the cockpit. It wouldn't take much to shatter a glass canopy underneath if an enemy simply targeted that area: kinetic damage would still do a number.

[cheemingwan1234]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There is flood control, but it's not that strict... it's measured in minutes, not days.

 

It's been noted in a few books going back as far as the old Sky Angels book that TTC ejection is not possible on a Variable Fighter.

The reason is simple... despite being only 10mm thick (on the VF-1), the OTM material used in the canopy's construction is much too strong for the ejection seat to be capable of breaking the canopy during an ejection sequence.  It's said that the canopy is not glass or a plasticized composite, but rather is a transparent metal (possibly the same Herculite used in starship windows).  To work around the problem, in Fighter and GERWALK mode ejections the canopy is ejected with rocket motors to ensure that it clears the seat's own flight path during an ejection.

What about running a detcord throgh the canopy to shatter/weaken  it during ejection? The F-35 uses it.

Edited November 21, 2022 by cheemingwan1234

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

What about running a detcord throgh the canopy to shatter/weaken  it during ejection? The F-35 uses it.

There's no caveat on it... they just say TTC ejection is not possible because of the material strength of the OTM materials used in the canopy.

Based on what's said about the strength of Overtechnology Materials used elsewhere in the Valkyrie's design I'd assume that any blast strong enough to break the canopy from the inside would probably kill, or at least severely injure, the pilot.

[cheemingwan1234]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There's no caveat on it... they just say TTC ejection is not possible because of the material strength of the OTM materials used in the canopy.

Based on what's said about the strength of Overtechnology Materials used elsewhere in the Valkyrie's design I'd assume that any blast strong enough to break the canopy from the inside would probably kill, or at least severely injure, the pilot.

Drat, guess that rocket ejection for canopy is the only option for ejecting from a VF.

[JB0]

7 minutes ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Drat, guess that rocket ejection for canopy is the only option for ejecting from a VF.

Or ejecting the cockpit as a module(seen frequently on the VF-11 in Macross 7), or the entire nose as a module(seen once in SDF Macross)

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Drat, guess that rocket ejection for canopy is the only option for ejecting from a VF.

You know, you could always OPEN the canopy and climb out...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Drat, guess that rocket ejection for canopy is the only option for ejecting from a VF.

That or, as @JB0 pointed out, ejecting the cockpit block as a single unit.

For various reasons, the VF-1 Valkyrie came equipped with at least four separate ejection system operating modes.  One for subsonic flight, one for supersonic flight that deployed an additional bit of decking below the chair to shield the pilot from the supersonic airflow, one for space flight that ejects the entire aircraft nose, and then battroid that pops off the VF's head and allows the seat to eject out the neck.  

TTC ejection is mainly a British thing for low-altitude aircraft.  Most aircraft just pop the entire canopy off.  Esp. American aircraft, and the VF-1 Valkyrie is an American-designed plane.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

You know, you could always OPEN the canopy and climb out...

If the fighter's blowing up around you, exiting the aircraft by the most expeditious means possible is generally recommended for your continued health and safety.

At no point will the stewardess tell you to please wait until the aircraft has finished exploding to disembark.

[pengbuzz]

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That or, as @JB0 pointed out, ejecting the cockpit block as a single unit.

For various reasons, the VF-1 Valkyrie came equipped with at least four separate ejection system operating modes.  One for subsonic flight, one for supersonic flight that deployed an additional bit of decking below the chair to shield the pilot from the supersonic airflow, one for space flight that ejects the entire aircraft nose, and then battroid that pops off the VF's head and allows the seat to eject out the neck.  

TTC ejection is mainly a British thing for low-altitude aircraft.  Most aircraft just pop the entire canopy off.  Esp. American aircraft, and the VF-1 Valkyrie is an American-designed plane.

I didn't realize there were four ejection systems! O.o

 

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If the fighter's blowing up around you, exiting the aircraft by the most expeditious means possible is generally recommended for your continued health and safety.

At no point will the stewardess tell you to please wait until the aircraft has finished exploding to disembark.

 ROFL!!! Thanks Seto! I needed a laugh tonight!

[Seto Kaiba]

42 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I didn't realize there were four ejection systems! O.o

More like four different ways to eject using the same system.

The Sky Angels book actually describes more than that, though it's all variations in the same basic concepts like ejecting the nose in Battroid mode instead of Fighter or GERWALK or firing the ejection seat forward out of the Battroid's midsection if the head is too damaged to clear the path of the vertical ejection.  Because it contains so many diagrams, the part about ejecting is actually one of the book's longer sections!

[cheemingwan1234]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That or, as @JB0 pointed out, ejecting the cockpit block as a single unit.

For various reasons, the VF-1 Valkyrie came equipped with at least four separate ejection system operating modes.  One for subsonic flight, one for supersonic flight that deployed an additional bit of decking below the chair to shield the pilot from the supersonic airflow, one for space flight that ejects the entire aircraft nose, and then battroid that pops off the VF's head and allows the seat to eject out the neck.  

TTC ejection is mainly a British thing for low-altitude aircraft.  Most aircraft just pop the entire canopy off.  Esp. American aircraft, and the VF-1 Valkyrie is an American-designed plane.

 

If the fighter's blowing up around you, exiting the aircraft by the most expeditious means possible is generally recommended for your continued health and safety.

At no point will the stewardess tell you to please wait until the aircraft has finished exploding to disembark.

Actually, the A-6 Intruder and it's variants use it as well together with the A-10

Then again, I wonder how much dummies the UN Spacy went through before deciding on the most suitable way to eject people out of VFs in all modes.

 

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Actually, the A-6 Intruder and it's variants use it as well together with the A-10

Then again, I wonder how much dummies the UN Spacy went through before deciding on the most suitable way to eject people out of VFs in all modes.

 

*imagines a bunch of test cockpits with dummies smashed all over the insides of them*

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Then again, I wonder how much dummies the UN Spacy went through before deciding on the most suitable way to eject people out of VFs in all modes.

Probably none.

Even in the oldest version of the VF-1's development history, Stonewell and Bellcom's joint engineering team designed the first Variable Fighter digitally.  Physical prototyping didn't begin until after that design - which the oldest material calls VF-X X021 - was completed in 2005.  Ejection seat manufacturers Marty & Beck* probably destroyed at least a couple dummies prototyping the actual ejection seat itself, but by the time the Earth UN Forces took delivery of the first prototypes in 2007 those were solved problems.  Due to extensive use of computer modeling to evaluate the design before parts or even the materials to make them were available there were relatively few differences between the VF-X prototype seen in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and the Block 1 VF-1A.

(It's actually kind of surprising how little has changed in the VF-1's development history from its first version in 1984 to the present day.)

 

* A "bland name" version of real world British ejection seat manufacturer Martin-Baker.

[SebastianP]

12 hours ago, cheemingwan1234 said:

Actually, the A-6 Intruder and it's variants use it as well together with the A-10

Then again, I wonder how much dummies the UN Spacy went through before deciding on the most suitable way to eject people out of VFs in all modes.

 

It's not just the A-6 and the A-10 either. Pretty much every ejection seat-equipped aircraft with a bubble canopy that was designed for low-and-slow flight has a canopy destruct system, including the F-35B. 

In high speed flight, it's usually enough to just lift the canopy front edge up enough to make the wind rip the thing off, but it only works when there's enough airspeed. There were some bad accidents during the 50s and 60s with early supersonic jets where they'd gone into flat spins with not enough airflow over the canopy for it to come off and the pilot was stuck riding the aircraft into the ground. I heard about one particular incident involving the original Draken when I was in the Swedish Air Force where the pilot had kept calm and reported the entire way down knowing that he was going to die because his canopy wouldn't come off. After that, they fitted explosive canopy separators to both the Draken and subsequent Swedish aircraft.

And even *with* explosive separators, it's sometimes not enough - Goose's death in Top Gun was based on a real incident, and the Tomcat had pyrotechnic canopy removers. If I recall correctly, the NACES seats used on the F-14D and the Super Hornet were specifically made taller so that even if you did smash into the canopy it would be the seat taking the hit. 

For aircraft specifically intended to operate very low and very slow, where there's significant risk that even explosive separators won't provide enough separation in time, they use canopy destruction systems instead and basically blow the thing up before shooting the ejection seat through the hole. 

Considering that the canopy of a jet can be up to a half inch thick, anything that helps remove it as an obstacle or weakens it before you have to ram your head through it is kind of a good idea.

 

 

 

 

[pengbuzz]

On 11/22/2022 at 3:18 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Probably none.

Even in the oldest version of the VF-1's development history, Stonewell and Bellcom's joint engineering team designed the first Variable Fighter digitally.  Physical prototyping didn't begin until after that design - which the oldest material calls VF-X X021 - was completed in 2005.  Ejection seat manufacturers Marty & Beck* probably destroyed at least a couple dummies prototyping the actual ejection seat itself, but by the time the Earth UN Forces took delivery of the first prototypes in 2007 those were solved problems.  Due to extensive use of computer modeling to evaluate the design before parts or even the materials to make them were available there were relatively few differences between the VF-X prototype seen in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and the Block 1 VF-1A.

(It's actually kind of surprising how little has changed in the VF-1's development history from its first version in 1984 to the present day.)

 

* A "bland name" version of real world British ejection seat manufacturer Martin-Baker.

And of course, with Roy Focker heavily involved in the test flight process, they probably had quite a bit of expert feedback during development.