The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, TG Remix said:

With both times Docker's men fell like flies I always saw that as the series prepping up the VF-19 as the new cannon fodder anyways. 😆

Diamond Force didn't do much better... not being a main character is a real occupational hazard.

 

1 minute ago, TG Remix said:

Some questions I had regarding ship development. Macross 7 showed not only City 7 docking with Battle 7, but the other ships of the fleet docking with theGuantánamo  and Uraga carriers. It makes me wonder if the mass production of the New Macross colonization ships inspired ship-docking with smaller carriers, or the other way around.

That's an excellent question with no clear answer... the circumstances of the development of the new ship classes first seen in Macross Plus and Macross 7 are unclear to the say least.

 

1 minute ago, TG Remix said:

And was it ever said when the Macross Quarter and Elysion classes began to be built? A part of me wondered if the latter was built earlier, at least in a Late Universal Century (And our 21st century) sense where technology shrinks but gets more powerful.

The Elysion-type, no.

In Macross Frontier, the Macross Quarter-class was a very recent development.  The Macross Quarter in the TV version of the story was the prototype and sole example of the class.  It was built at Island-1's pier, with construction starting in December 2055.  It was completed at some point in 2057 or 2058, and after some minor retrofits was approved for SMS's use for operational evaluation purposes in c.2059 May.  In the movie version it was similarly a very recent addition that only entered service shortly before the story.

[RedWolf]

Visually at least SMS has several Quarter class while Xaos has several Elysion types. NUNS we see has Battle Class. 

This is the same visual logic with not seeing much Zentradi ships as not confuse the audience. 

Though it would not surprise me if NUNS does have those two classes as part of their forces. 

 

 

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Some questions I had regarding ship development. Macross 7 showed not only City 7 docking with Battle 7, but the other ships of the fleet docking with the Guantánamo  and Uraga carriers (...)

It makes me wonder if the mass production of the New Macross colonization ships inspired ship-docking with smaller carriers, or the other way around. (...)

The original ARMD in SDFM were intended to dock with the SDF-1.  So, one could infer that that is the genesis of the 'warship docking with bigger ship' idea.

In some ways, the Northampton is the exception, as it's the only one that's not a carrier-style vessel.

[TG Remix]

 

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's an excellent question with no clear answer... the circumstances of the development of the new ship classes first seen in Macross Plus and Macross 7 are unclear to the say least.

Right, we don't even have any dates on when they began to be produced. Well, the VF-1 Master File states the Guantánamo class began production in 2026, but also states that  90 ships of the class were built between 2026 and 2035. I find the clain hard to believe since not only New Macross colony fleets were beginning to be sent out with many of the stealth carriers (45 specifically in the Macross 7 fleet), but it seemed from Earth's own defense line had at least 12 of them (And probably even more considering how heavily protected Earth was). The Uraga Carriers are said to be more modern replacements, and I have no idea about the Northampton class of ships where they started to pop up.

 

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

The original ARMD in SDFM were intended to dock with the SDF-1.  So, one could infer that that is the genesis of the 'warship docking with bigger ship' idea.

I'm also reminded of the ARMD-class looking compartments from the sides of the Megaroad-class. They don't look like docked ships, but they probably served the same purpose the ARMD's attached to the Macross had.

 

6 hours ago, sketchley said:

In some ways, the Northampton is the exception, as it's the only one that's not a carrier-style vessel.

Right, and even then the Three Star Factory Ship is docked with the bridge (Though considering how unorthodox and the rest are docked with the carriers, it may be an exception then the standard.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Right, we don't even have any dates on when they began to be produced. Well, the VF-1 Master File states the Guantánamo class began production in 2026, but also states that  90 ships of the class were built between 2026 and 2035. I find the clain hard to believe since not only New Macross colony fleets were beginning to be sent out with many of the stealth carriers (45 specifically in the Macross 7 fleet), but it seemed from Earth's own defense line had at least 12 of them (And probably even more considering how heavily protected Earth was). The Uraga Carriers are said to be more modern replacements, and I have no idea about the Northampton class of ships where they started to pop up.

For what it's worth, we do see some features that suggest the first few New Macross fleets used the old ARMD II-class as well... so it may be close to the mark.

 

8 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Right, and even then the Three Star Factory Ship is docked with the bridge (Though considering how unorthodox and the rest are docked with the carriers, it may be an exception then the standard.

It's probably just an eccentricity of the Northampton-class itself... even in the Macross 7 Trash manga, the docking umbilical's connector is on the side of the bridge tower.

[TG Remix]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For what it's worth, we do see some features that suggest the first few New Macross fleets used the old ARMD II-class as well... so it may be close to the mark.

That is a fair point, I forgot about the ARMD we saw with the Macross 1 fleet. That and considering the Varauta Army and Macross Galaxy some fleets and defense lines use non-standard vessels as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

That is a fair point, I forgot about the ARMD we saw with the Macross 1 fleet. That and considering the Varauta Army and Macross Galaxy some fleets and defense lines use non-standard vessels as well.

That's one of the bigger problems with estimating the exact size of the New UN Forces and New UN Government... good luck determining what constitutes a "typical" fleet past about the mid-2020s.

[TG Remix]

23 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's one of the bigger problems with estimating the exact size of the New UN Forces and New UN Government... good luck determining what constitutes a "typical" fleet past about the mid-2020s.

IIRC the Spica Shock incident was the only time, official or not, we got a grasp on what a typical colony planet defense line would be (600 variable fighters, 48 destroyers, 16 cruisers, and 9 space carriers.) Emigrant fleets travelling in space seems like they just get bigger as time goes on. Though the cruisers got me interested, since I don't remember any UN ship at the time that could fufill that roll unlike the Oberth-class destroyers and ARMD-class.

Researching the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, I noticed the VF-171EX variant also were equipped with it's own Super Pack. Would that be specifically for the EX Type or that can be used for all Nightmare Plus'? And any word on how much additional armaments it carries, unless it's just for a extra boost of propulsion?

And a small musing since Macross II introduced battlesuits controlled by micloned pilots; considering in the main continuity we have Variable Battlepods that can be piloted by both human and giants, theoretically could there be, say Regults or Queadluun-types that could be piloted by miclones?

[RedWolf]

12 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

theoretically could there be, say Regults or Queadluun-types that could be piloted by miclones?

Interesting enough the Feios looks like a Battlesuit but can only be piloted by a Miclone. The Queadluun-Alma has a partial transformation similar to the Feios.

From what we know of the Queadluun-Alma is that it is a Stellar Republic Era battlesuit but was customized to be like the Feios. 

 

[Invid99]

Can the Golg Gants Charts ship classified as a fighter pod like the Gnerl? Doesn't seem like the Gnerl exist in DYRL. 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

IIRC the Spica Shock incident was the only time, official or not, we got a grasp on what a typical colony planet defense line would be (600 variable fighters, 48 destroyers, 16 cruisers, and 9 space carriers.) Emigrant fleets travelling in space seems like they just get bigger as time goes on.

Pretty much, yes... though that was the defense force of an established colony from a 1st or 2nd Generation emigrant fleet.  Each successive generation got much larger.

 

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though the cruisers got me interested, since I don't remember any UN ship at the time that could fufill that roll unlike the Oberth-class destroyers and ARMD-class.

Macross M3 introduced a class of space stealth cruiser in the Dancing Skulls mothership Algenicus.

Since its class was never identified, most fans refer to it as the Algenicus-class or Algenicus-type.

Max's service history also mentions one other cruiser he served aboard, the Haruna (class unspecified).

There were also cruisers among the ship designs used by the Varauta colony, which would/should have been a contemporary of the Spica III colony.

(The only one mentioned after is the Northampton-derived stealth cruiser from Macross Frontier and later which has never received a class name.  It has an informal nickname of the Osaka-class thanks to Circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy doujin.)

 

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Researching the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, I noticed the VF-171EX variant also were equipped with it's own Super Pack. Would that be specifically for the EX Type or that can be used for all Nightmare Plus'? And any word on how much additional armaments it carries, unless it's just for a extra boost of propulsion?

It's actually considered an Armored Pack, not a Super Pack.  

It's pretty minimal, just some extra armor to protect the legs/engines with some verniers built in and an armored segment to protect above the cockpit with some micro-missile launchers.

It's not explicitly said whether or not the AAS-171 Armored Pack could be taken by the base model VF-171 Block II model, but in the Macross Frontier movies the improved Block IIIF (3F) model that is outwardly identical to the Block II is shown using it so the answer is probably yes.

Armaments-wise, it's just a couple micro-missiles in the launchers on either side of the cockpit.  Nothing major.  It's mostly about improving defensive ability.

 

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

And a small musing since Macross II introduced battlesuits controlled by micloned pilots; considering in the main continuity we have Variable Battlepods that can be piloted by both human and giants, theoretically could there be, say Regults or Queadluun-types that could be piloted by miclones?

There's a Regult converted for operation by three miclones in the original series... that's how the Zentradi spy trio get away after their mission is done and carry all the stuff they've bought or nicked back to the Vrlitwhai Branch Fleet.

That said, given the (comparatively) low level of automation and low survivability of the Regult, the complexity of the Queadluun-Rau's control system, and the usage of the military as a sort of halfway house for Zentradi who had trouble adjusting to Earth's culture, there probably wasn't a lot of demand for miclone-pilotable versions.  It's actually a bit surprising that the Zentradi were willing to keep using the Regult given that it's described as being a bit of an ergonomic nightmare... but a dose of the familiar probably went a ways towards keeping them calm.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

Can the Golg Gants Charts ship classified as a fighter pod like the Gnerl? Doesn't seem like the Gnerl exist in DYRL. 

The kanji they use for it is 重攻撃機 (Juu kougeki-ki), "Heavy Attack Aircraft".

It's not a fighter pod, it's more analogous to an attack plane like the A-10A Thunderbolt II or an attack gunship like the AC-130 Spectre/Spooky.

[pengbuzz]

24 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, given the (comparatively) low level of automation and low survivability of the Regult, the complexity of the Queadluun-Rau's control system, and the usage of the military as a sort of halfway house for Zentradi who had trouble adjusting to Earth's culture, there probably wasn't a lot of demand for miclone-pilotable versions.  It's actually a bit surprising that the Zentradi were willing to keep using the Regult given that it's described as being a bit of an ergonomic nightmare... but a dose of the familiar probably went a ways towards keeping them calm.

Mech developer: "Okay...the cockpit is crammed,  there's barely any room for a pilot, the headspace is nearly non-existent, and it's guaranteed to give you back problems.*

*Zentraedi test pilot gets into cockpit*

Zentraedi Test Pilot: "ahhh....perfect!!! We'll take about 20,000 of these!"

*takes a nap in the cockpit*

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Mech developer: "Okay...the cockpit is crammed,  there's barely any room for a pilot, the headspace is nearly non-existent, and it's guaranteed to give you back problems.*

*Zentraedi test pilot gets into cockpit*

Zentraedi Test Pilot: "ahhh....perfect!!! We'll take about 20,000 of these!"

*takes a nap in the cockpit*

A line of reasoning which suggests the Protoculture didn't go extinct, they merely went undercover among humans as manufacturers of cubicles and other office furniture.

[TG Remix]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(The only one mentioned after is the Northampton-derived stealth cruiser from Macross Frontier and later which has never received a class name.  It has an informal nickname of the Osaka-class thanks to Circle FANKY's Battleships of the Galaxy doujin.)

Right, that class. Wonder where that started to pop up as well; me guessing it was around the late 2040's like the Nightmare Plus' and AIF-4000's.

 

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That said, given the (comparatively) low level of automation and low survivability of the Regult, the complexity of the Queadluun-Rau's control system, and the usage of the military as a sort of halfway house for Zentradi who had trouble adjusting to Earth's culture, there probably wasn't a lot of demand for miclone-pilotable versions.

I brought up those in a general sense, because that also goes for the likes of the Glaug and Nousjadeul-Ger. But yeah most would probably go for Variable Fighters anyways. 

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

Mech developer: "Okay...the cockpit is crammed,  there's barely any room for a pilot, the headspace is nearly non-existent, and it's guaranteed to give you back problems.*

*Zentraedi test pilot gets into cockpit*

Zentraedi Test Pilot: "ahhh....perfect!!! We'll take about 20,000 of these!"

*takes a nap in the cockpit*

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A line of reasoning which suggests the Protoculture didn't go extinct, they merely went undercover among humans as manufacturers of cubicles and other office furniture.

Part of me wonders if the Regults and Glaug's in Delta with the extra space were a result on trying to give Zentradi at least some type of standards. 😝

[pengbuzz]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:29 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

A line of reasoning which suggests the Protoculture didn't go extinct, they merely went undercover among humans as manufacturers of cubicles and other office furniture.

Protoculture= Ikea? O.o

[Seto Kaiba]

40 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Protoculture= Ikea? O.o

Nah, just a jab at the terrible ergonomics of general-use corporate office furniture.

It's awkward, uncomfortable, lowest-bidder garbage even if you're not a Zentradi-sized bloke like me.  (At my job, I have seldom felt as much kinship for Zentradi Regult pilots as when I had to pretzel myself into a Fiat 500e.)

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Nah, just a jab at the terrible ergonomics of general-use corporate office furniture.

It's awkward, uncomfortable, lowest-bidder garbage even if you're not a Zentradi-sized bloke like me.  (At my job, I have seldom felt as much kinship for Zentradi Regult pilots as when I had to pretzel myself into a Fiat 500e.)

Understood; in my time, I've had to avail myself of less-than suitable office accoutrements myself (I have the same problem, albeit horizontally). Some days, it feels like the world is designed for folks other than you,  and no effort was made for any sort of accommodation even near those tolerances!

[TG Remix]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

It's actually considered an Armored Pack, not a Super Pack.  

It's pretty minimal, just some extra armor to protect the legs/engines with some verniers built in and an armored segment to protect above the cockpit with some micro-missile launchers.

It's not explicitly said whether or not the AAS-171 Armored Pack could be taken by the base model VF-171 Block II model, but in the Macross Frontier movies the improved Block IIIF (3F) model that is outwardly identical to the Block II is shown using it so the answer is probably yes.

Armaments-wise, it's just a couple micro-missiles in the launchers on either side of the cockpit.  Nothing major.  It's mostly about improving defensive ability.

After the Protect Pack the VF-11 got, that seems like such a downgrade, both weapons wise and visually, lol. Though It does seem like it was built around to be compatible with other Packs and armaments' the VF-171 could get. Though speaking of which, I wonder if the Nightmare Plus could be compatible with the Super Pack the VF-17 got, since they at lease share the same basic shape.

 

On 6/14/2022 at 6:57 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Pretty much, yes... though that was the defense force of an established colony from a 1st or 2nd Generation emigrant fleet.  Each successive generation got much larger.

With the 600 variable fighters, I wonder how "monogamous" a typical fleet would be. There's the need for Variable Attackers, Bombers, and the odd special forces fighters, but there's older units as well. Granted production wise in terms of animation it'd be easier to have only one type of craft to represent one side (At least for the protagonist side, since the Zentradi, Varauta Army, and Varja had more then one type for the main characters to fight), but considering that Kawamori says it's less on replacing, but adding new ships to what's already there (Which is true to real life as well), I wonder how common extended life services are throughout the UN's grasp to keep older ships and variable craft in service (Like the VF-1X, VF-11C, and VF-4G, maybe the VF-5000G for example) to get them operating on the modern battlefield.

Speaking of the VF-4, I've been researching it a bit and I think it's interesting even with its contemporaries they tried to make the Lighting III more atmospheric friendly. Especially with the VF-4D and VF-4S  for UN Navy use. I'm trying to get more data on it, but apparently the D-type had issues lifting off and landing? I'm also interested in this sketch Kawamori(?) had made of it. It seems like it's wearing its own Super Pack, though I'm not sure how "official" or not it is.

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

After the Protect Pack the VF-11 got, that seems like such a downgrade, both weapons wise and visually, lol. Though It does seem like it was built around to be compatible with other Packs and armaments' the VF-171 could get.

It's pretty on-brand for a 4th Generation Valkyrie like the VF-171.

The 4th Generation brought in, among other things, a new generation of thermonuclear reaction turbine engine that offered vast improvements in efficiency and output.  Having more efficient engines that could get more thrust and energy from less fuel was a game changer for Option Packs.  Prior to that point, Option Packs like the Super Pack had existed mainly to improve a Valkyrie's endurance in space operations by adding large tanks of fuel slush for the main engines and rocket boosters to reduce the demand on the main engines for the Valkyrie's acceleration.  With the more fuel-efficient thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines that were introduced on 4th Generation Valkyries like the YF-19 and YF-21 and put on late 3rd Generation designs like the VF-16 and VF-17, it was no longer strictly necessary to lug around big conformal fuel tanks and rocket boosters to obtain a decent amount of burn time from the reaction engines in space.  This change in basic needs reduced Option Packs to a borderline vestigial state on 4th Generation Valkyries, either being abolished by absorbing their functions directly into the aircraft (as on the YF-21/VF-22) or reduced to little more than a bolt-on missile launcher here or there as on the YF-19/VF-19A. 

The much improved generator output of the new generation of engine technology also meant more power to go around for defensive measures like active stealth, energy conversion armor, and the addition of a VF-scale pinpoint barrier system.  Improvements in materials and the availability of more energy for the system meant energy conversion armor greatly improved its defensive ability.  It was no longer necessary to bolt big chunks of ECA-backed composite armor to a Valkyrie to achieve excellent defensive potential.  The late 3rd and 4th Generation Valkyries with the new engine type could achieve defensive strength rivaling a VF-1 w/ Armored Pack (over 2.5x the defensive strength of the VF-1 alone) without the need for any additional armor at all.  The addition of the pinpoint barrier system only improved the defensive situation further, so Armored Packs also went out of style for a while in the 4th Generation's heyday.

The VF-171's Armored Pack is a minimialist enhancement that fits with the design ethos of the 4th Generation and the VF-171.  It's low-profile, minimizing the additional burden on the active stealth system by minimizing its impact on the aircraft's passively stealthy shape.  It up-armors key areas where damage could disable the craft without destroying it: its engines and cockpit.  It doesn't add a ton of additional weaponry because the EX type (and Block IIIF) were already upgunned to the max with MDE weapons.  It bolsters defense but doesn't impact the VF-171's performance noticeably, which is advantageous because the VF-171 could barely keep up with the Vajra as it was.

5th Generation Valkyries reversed the whole philosophy underpinning Option Packs.  Instead of slapping a few missile launchers on big boosters and fuel tanks needed to give a VF enough fuel to operate for long periods in space, they reversed the equation and designed Option Packs around the idea of maximizing offensive capability and using those booster rockets and additional verniers to offset the weight of all that extra weaponry.  The Super and Armored Packs for the VF-25, VF-31, etc. actually significantly degrade the Valkyrie's acceleration and maneuverability in exchange for carrying hundreds of missiles and other weapons.  The VF-25's Super Pack halves its maximum acceleration.  The Armored Pack cuts it to about 1/3 of normal.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though speaking of which, I wonder if the Nightmare Plus could be compatible with the Super Pack the VF-17 got, since they at lease share the same basic shape.

Probably not, given that the transformation changed considerably.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

With the 600 variable fighters, I wonder how "monogamous" a typical fleet would be. There's the need for Variable Attackers, Bombers, and the odd special forces fighters, but there's older units as well. Granted production wise in terms of animation it'd be easier to have only one type of craft to represent one side (At least for the protagonist side, since the Zentradi, Varauta Army, and Varja had more then one type for the main characters to fight), but considering that Kawamori says it's less on replacing, but adding new ships to what's already there (Which is true to real life as well), I wonder how common extended life services are throughout the UN's grasp to keep older ships and variable craft in service (Like the VF-1X, VF-11C, and VF-4G, maybe the VF-5000G for example) to get them operating on the modern battlefield.

As with so many matters, it depends on the government's priorities.

It's noted that early emigrant fleets and recently settled planets used a mixture of different Valkyries.  Initially it was a mix of VF-1's and VF-4's, and throughout the heyday of the 2nd Generation Valkyries the VF-4 shared its status with a bunch of others like the VF-5, VF-5000, and VF-9.  Those early designs, esp. the VF-1 and VF-4, were intended to be multirole, so they covered both Fighter and Attacker roles reasonably well.  Role-dedicated VFs started to branch out in the 2nd Generation and established themselves in the 3rd, with models like the VA-3, VA-14, VAB-2, VB-6, etc.  

By the time of the 3rd-4th Generation VFs and 3rd Generation of emigrant fleets, you could basically count on a fleet having maybe 3-4 different types of Valkyrie at their disposal in practice.  The main fighter (VF-11 or VF-14), a dedicated attacker (e.g. VA-3, VA-14), and a special forces Valkyrie (e.g. the VF-17, VF-19, VF-22).  

The 4th Generation seems to have changed things a bit, with the VF-171 having a multitude of role-specific variations that allowed a common platform to Jack-of-all-Trades into the majority of roles.  We've seen the RVF-171 and the VF-171 designated marksman variant, but there is also mention of a fighter-bomber type in the VB-171 and others.

Insofar as replacement vs. addition, there is replacement and retirement of older designs going on... but as is my now-constant refrain, that depends on the government's priorities.

As newer models are phased in and squadrons retrain on the new aircraft, older models are gradually reassigned to "second string" duties like serving as training aircraft.  Once they either hit the point where they're too obsolete to be any good or the cost of maintaining them exceeds the benefits of keeping them, they're retired and either scrapped for materials, stripped of classified hardware and sold off to civilians, or converted into unmanned target aircraft for live fire training.  For example, Chelsea Scarlett in Macross R bought three of the Macross Frontier fleet's retired VF-11B airframes to make her VF-11B Nothung II at the end of the story.  In Macross Plus, the Ghost X-9 is shown destroying formations of older VF-11A's that've been converted to unmanned target aircraft specification.  (Master File suggests quite a few VF-1's met their end this way, converted into QVF-1 target drones for training with live weapons.)  Macross 7 Trash shows the Macross 7 fleet using old VF-4's as training aircraft in Mahara's flashbacks.  The Macross Frontier novelization has what is probably the worst offender, the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army uses an eclectic mix of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Generation General Galaxy-made Valkyries that've been modernized and modified to keep them viable.

When all is said and done, the march of technological advancement seems to mean a Valkyrie design has around 30 years of life to it before the miltary considers it to be at end-of-life and retires it.  

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of the VF-4, I've been researching it a bit and I think it's interesting even with its contemporaries they tried to make the Lighting III more atmospheric friendly. Especially with the VF-4D and VF-4S  for UN Navy use. I'm trying to get more data on it, but apparently the D-type had issues lifting off and landing?

In the years immediately following the First Space War, the New UN Government had to make do with what it had.

The VF-4 was an excellent space fighter, but only a mediocre atmospheric dogfighter because of its design.  The large main wing that incorporated the thermonuclear ramjets and fuel tanks that made the VF-4 very fast in straightline travel and reduced the need for conformal tanks or other optional gear in space made it more stable in atmosphere and thus negatively impacted maneuverability.  This is why so many 2nd Generation designs are not all-regime Valkyries like the VF-1, but supplements to the VF-4 that replace it in roles in atmospheric operations where it is an iffy performer like the VF-5, VF-5000, and VF-9.  I've read that the VF-4D/S had an unusually high difficulty in CATOBAR operations since its shape was unconducive to the appropriate landing angle to catch the wires.

Very little is said about the atmospheric variants.  AFAIK, their one and only appearance in an official work has been Macross R, where Bilra Transport sponsored a pilot who uses a disarmed (literally and figuratively) VF-4S.  

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

 I'm also interested in this sketch Kawamori(?) had made of it. It seems like it's wearing its own Super Pack, though I'm not sure how "official" or not it is.

It's something that was released with a garage kit.

Officially, the VF-4 doesn't have/use a Super Pack in Macross's main timeline.  It doesn't really need one since it already has rocket boosters built into it and its body is designed for much more fuel storage than the VF-1 had.

It did have one in Macross II's timeline, but it was closer in design to the original VF-1's (and so was the transformation).

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty on-brand for a 4th Generation Valkyrie like the VF-171.

The 4th Generation brought in, among other things, a new generation of thermonuclear reaction turbine engine that offered vast improvements in efficiency and output.  Having more efficient engines that could get more thrust and energy from less fuel was a game changer for Option Packs.  Prior to that point, Option Packs like the Super Pack had existed mainly to improve a Valkyrie's endurance in space operations by adding large tanks of fuel slush for the main engines and rocket boosters to reduce the demand on the main engines for the Valkyrie's acceleration.  With the more fuel-efficient thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines that were introduced on 4th Generation Valkyries like the YF-19 and YF-21 and put on late 3rd Generation designs like the VF-16 and VF-17, it was no longer strictly necessary to lug around big conformal fuel tanks and rocket boosters to obtain a decent amount of burn time from the reaction engines in space.  This change in basic needs reduced Option Packs to a borderline vestigial state on 4th Generation Valkyries, either being abolished by absorbing their functions directly into the aircraft (as on the YF-21/VF-22) or reduced to little more than a bolt-on missile launcher here or there as on the YF-19/VF-19A. 

I recall the VF-1's operation time in space being quite short due to it's design; the UNS thought most of the war would be fought planet-side (if memory serves). After SW1, they apparently rethought that position given the fighters liek the VF-4.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Officially, the VF-4 doesn't have/use a Super Pack in Macross's main timeline.  It doesn't really need one since it already has rocket boosters built into it and its body is designed for much more fuel storage than the VF-1 had.

It did have one in Macross II's timeline, but it was closer in design to the original VF-1's (and so was the transformation).

I need to look that up; I thought the VF-4 in MII was the same.

[darkranger12]

Seeing the movie just last night, I have to say that the Varja Heavy Soldier is much taller than most mechs in Macross.  Its like wow Kaiju sized.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I recall the VF-1's operation time in space being quite short due to it's design; the UNS thought most of the war would be fought planet-side (if memory serves). After SW1, they apparently rethought that position given the fighters liek the VF-4.

The exact burn time at maximum thrust varies a bit between sources, but all sources are generally in agreement that the VF-1's internal fuel supply was only enough for 10 minutes or less of burning at maximum thrust.

As to the reason, it's a consequence of having constrained the size of the VF-1 Battroid to approximately the expected size of the Zentradi because they were expecting to have to fight infantry in an invasion of the planet's surface.  Once they learned that the Zentradi didn't do that kind of thing, the focus shifted towards space-based defense and improved space capabilities.

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I need to look that up; I thought the VF-4 in MII was the same.

Fighter mode is the same and GERWALK mode looks mostly the same, but Battroid mode looks very much like a VF-1's and the version in Eternal Love Song has a VF-1S-like head, a beam rifle, and funnels ala Gundam.

 

44 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

Seeing the movie just last night, I have to say that the Varja Heavy Soldier is much taller than most mechs in Macross.  Its like wow Kaiju sized.

Yes, the Vajra are quite large.

Standing up in a bipedal form, the Vajra heavy soldier type - the generic "big red" - is 25m tall to the top of its carapace and 30m to the top of its heavy quantum beam gun.  Most Battroids hover around 14-15m.

[darkranger12]

Also there was a scene where Alto and Michael were sorta fighting in their civvie ex gears....how flexible would the milspec gears be to do hand to hand, if ever?

[pengbuzz]

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The exact burn time at maximum thrust varies a bit between sources, but all sources are generally in agreement that the VF-1's internal fuel supply was only enough for 10 minutes or less of burning at maximum thrust.

Ouch. "Sorry Zentran force; I gotta be home in 10 minutes!"

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As to the reason, it's a consequence of having constrained the size of the VF-1 Battroid to approximately the expected size of the Zentradi because they were expecting to have to fight infantry in an invasion of the planet's surface.  Once they learned that the Zentradi didn't do that kind of thing, the focus shifted towards space-based defense and improved space capabilities.

Yeah; I guess it never occurred to them that those soldiers would have their own mecha and craft that would be even larger.

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

Also there was a scene where Alto and Michael were sorta fighting in their civvie ex gears....how flexible would the milspec gears be to do hand to hand, if ever?

They're not gonna be doing kung fu, but they're designed to allow a more or less unrestricted normal range of motion so they could probably get away with some fisticuffs.  I wouldn't wanna be hit by an EX-Gear suit though, in the TV series ep8 Sheryl does a wall slam that cracks what appears to be a concrete wall while she's using a borrowed civilian suit.

Offensively, they're made to wield those very large rifles.

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Ouch. "Sorry Zentran force; I gotta be home in 10 minutes!"

That assumes DYRL-esque realistic space maneuvering rather than the more dramatic constant-thrust-equals-constant-velocity you usually see.

So 10 minutes of time running the engines at maximum power isn't necessarily a huge problem since there is no drag from atmosphere to slow you down once you reach a specific speed.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[DewPoint]

So as I have gotten older, availability of bathrooms have become more of a concern to me. So 10 minutes at full thrust feels adequate to me. Which leads me to "how do you go to the bathroom in that thing?" 🚽

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, DewPoint said:

So as I have gotten older, availability of bathrooms have become more of a concern to me. So 10 minutes at full thrust feels adequate to me. Which leads me to "how do you go to the bathroom in that thing?" 🚽

I'd hope there's a mechanism in the suit for urine collection the way NASA puts into suits intended for EVA.

Macross, at the very least, hasn't gone to the very strange place Gundam: Reconguista in G did where the pilot seat of the main character's mecha includes a fully functional flush toilet.  That Tomino felt compelled to include that in G-Reco was weird enough.  That we had to see it IN USE (while multiple people were in the cockpit no less) was possibly the weirdest thing I saw all year that year.

[DewPoint]

G-Reco was all kinds of weird! I honestly don't remember if I made it past the 3rd episode before I dropped it. I totally remember that toilet scene. It is burned into my brain forever.

[JB0]

I mean, at least some thought was put into the, errr, facilities.

How often is there just straight-up  nowhere to poop and people simply don't produce waste?

[RedWolf]

9 minutes ago, JB0 said:

I mean, at least some thought was put into the, errr, facilities.

How often is there just straight-up  nowhere to poop and people simply don't produce waste?

I assume they do their business planetside or ships. Max knocked out a guy using the loo to take his clothes off. 

[TG Remix]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's pretty on-brand for a 4th Generation Valkyrie like the VF-171.

 

So from all of that I gather the VF-171 was designed to be the most practical option of what a 4th gen Valkyrie would offer. And considering both Shinsei Industries and General Galaxy lost out with both their initial "winners," I can see why the Nightmare Plus would be a lot less extravagant.  I know Block II Nightmare Plus' are what we have in Delta and Frontier, and Block IIIF units are in the Frontier movies, but it doesn't seem that there's any noticeable physical differences between the two variations. I'm assuming that also goes to the initial Block I kind (Believe Ozma himself was piloting one himself when the Varja attacked the SDFN-4 in 2048). Though I did notice the RVF-171 and VF-171EX has a new head with two sensors, but I assume the former was deployed much earlier. Would any VF-171 equip that head, thinking about it?

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

...And the VF-171 designated marksman variant,

Now that I need a reminder of. Don't think it has a official name or pics flying around either.

 

16 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Insofar as replacement vs. addition, there is replacement and retirement of older designs going on... but as is my now-constant refrain, that depends on the government's priorities.

As newer models are phased in and squadrons retrain on the new aircraft, older models are gradually reassigned to "second string" duties like serving as training aircraft.  Once they either hit the point where they're too obsolete to be any good or the cost of maintaining them exceeds the benefits of keeping them, they're retired and either scrapped for materials, stripped of classified hardware and sold off to civilians, or converted into unmanned target aircraft for live fire training.  For example, Chelsea Scarlett in Macross R bought three of the Macross Frontier fleet's retired VF-11B airframes to make her VF-11B Nothung II at the end of the story.  In Macross Plus, the Ghost X-9 is shown destroying formations of older VF-11A's that've been converted to unmanned target aircraft specification.  (Master File suggests quite a few VF-1's met their end this way, converted into QVF-1 target drones for training with live weapons.)  Macross 7 Trash shows the Macross 7 fleet using old VF-4's as training aircraft in Mahara's flashbacks.  The Macross Frontier novelization has what is probably the worst offender, the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army uses an eclectic mix of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Generation General Galaxy-made Valkyries that've been modernized and modified to keep them viable.

When all is said and done, the march of technological advancement seems to mean a Valkyrie design has around 30 years of life to it before the miltary considers it to be at end-of-life and retires it.  

I see, Variable craft have a life expectancy, but they last as long as they could. I'm still not used to that, considering other Real Robot series replaces their current mechs like how people switch bed sheets. I also asked since the existence of the VF-5000G would imply they still see use, albeit as exported craft in places far into the the space boonies. Although my mind comes to some of the modified VF-11's (Thunderbolt Interceptor, VF-11MAXL Custom, and VF-11D Jamming Birds) where they were given a pinpoint barrier system as a part of their upgrades. Theoretically, I'm wondering how viable it could be to get an entire fleet of VF-11's with similar needs of a AVF fighter, or at least what the VF-171 could accomplish.

 

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That assumes DYRL-esque realistic space maneuvering rather than the more dramatic constant-thrust-equals-constant-velocity you usually see.

So 10 minutes of time running the engines at maximum power isn't necessarily a huge problem since there is no drag from atmosphere to slow you down once you reach a specific speed

That does remind me of the little amount of screen time the Regults had and their way of flight in both space and the atmosphere. IIRC the tv series had their legs out so they mover vertically in space, while in DYRL the legs seem to be "crotched over" like when they were in standby. Was this just a visual liberty done for the movie or is there an explanation for it? Think I kinda like how the latter makes the Regult even more compact looking.

 

12 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

Seeing the movie just last night, I have to say that the Varja Heavy Soldier is much taller than most mechs in Macross.  Its like wow Kaiju sized.

Yeah, no kidding! On another side point, love how the VB-6's Battroid form is so huge we never get the full height counting the rail guns. And I always wondered how giant sized Zentradi could fit inside the Variable Glaug/Neo Glaug. But then I remember how very compact the Regult and regular Glaug are and I stop asking questions. 😆

 

2 hours ago, DewPoint said:

G-Reco was all kinds of weird! I honestly don't remember if I made it past the 3rd episode before I dropped it. I totally remember that toilet scene. It is burned into my brain forever.

Well now I can't remember if it happens in the movies or not. 😅 (Think the toliet's shown, but we don't get to see it "in action," lol.) The movies do cut out a lot of the issues people had in the show, if it helps.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So from all of that I gather the VF-171 was designed to be the most practical option of what a 4th gen Valkyrie would offer.

General Galaxy's VF-171 Nightmare Plus was designed to address the main complaints the New UN Forces had about the Shinsei Industry VF-19:

• Cost
• Handling
• Performance respecting human limits

So what General Galaxy delivered was a multirole VF with exceptionally good cost-performance, high operational versatility, and performance appropriate to a next-gen Valkyrie without going overboard or making it inaccessible to average pilots.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I know Block II Nightmare Plus' are what we have in Delta and Frontier, and Block IIIF units are in the Frontier movies, but it doesn't seem that there's any noticeable physical differences between the two variations. I'm assuming that also goes to the initial Block I kind (Believe Ozma himself was piloting one himself when the Varja attacked the SDFN-4 in 2048).

As with most block upgrades, the changes are "under the hood" and don't affect its appearance.

The Block IIIF is a slightly less extreme upgrade than the EX-type, but most of the changes are the same as the EX-type's.  It adopted the same FF-2550F engine tuned to 67,500kgf and the same AA/AS/SF-06 integrated sensor matrix from the VF-25 that the EX-type did.  They both received the same MDE armaments upgrade package too.  The Block IIIF didn't receive the EX-Gear cockpit retrofit that the EX-type did for cost reasons, and also omitted the adoption of the better energy conversion armor system and VF-25's improved ablative anti-beam coating the EX-type got.

All in all, it's the same as the VF-171EX except for the bits that make the EX-type obviously a hero mecha.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though I did notice the RVF-171 and VF-171EX has a new head with two sensors, but I assume the former was deployed much earlier. Would any VF-171 equip that head, thinking about it?

Offhand, I don't recall seeing any art of the vanilla RVF-171... just the EX-type.

I'd expect the RVF-171 to have the same head as the regular VF-171.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Now that I need a reminder of. Don't think it has a official name or pics flying around either.

It appears only in the TV series, and only in a flashback.

Michael Blanc's sister Jessica had one at the time of the friendly fire accident that drove her to suicide.  Master File calls it the VF-171AS.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I see, Variable craft have a life expectancy, but they last as long as they could. I'm still not used to that, considering other Real Robot series replaces their current mechs like how people switch bed sheets.

That's Gundam, which is driven by gunpla sales... so they always need a flavor of the week.

In Macross, military procurement is handled a bit more realistically.  Though the real world doesn't often see military grade aircraft end up in civilian hands or used as training craft for vocational schools.  (In Macross Frontier's short stories and light novels, Mihoshi Academy's pilot training program is confirmed to be partly a feeder program for the Frontier NUNS flight school and its students train on aftermarket/civilian VF-1s... the VF-1C variant specifically.)

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I also asked since the existence of the VF-5000G would imply they still see use, albeit as exported craft in places far into the the space boonies. Although my mind comes to some of the modified VF-11's (Thunderbolt Interceptor, VF-11MAXL Custom, and VF-11D Jamming Birds) where they were given a pinpoint barrier system as a part of their upgrades. Theoretically, I'm wondering how viable it could be to get an entire fleet of VF-11's with similar needs of a AVF fighter, or at least what the VF-171 could accomplish.

Valkyries, like real world aircraft, can only be upgraded so far before you're basically rebuilding the entire plane from scratch into something that only outwardly resembles what it originally was.  (F/A-18E/F Super Hornet for instance.)  Upgrading a VF beyond what it was designed to handle structurally or aerodynamically can make it dangerously unstable as well.  This is seen at several points in Macross R like Hakuna Aoba's VF-1X++, which was already pushing the limits of the VF-1 airframe before he gave it 64,200kgf engines from a drone and bolted more rocket boosters to it, turning it into an unstable mess that is one mistake away from being a fireball.  Or the VF-9E, which couldn't handle its new engines in testing and developed a disquieting habit of exploding.  Or the VF-31 Siegfried custom, which couldn't handle the stresses of overboosting with its fold wave system and needed a lot of hangar time between sorties.

The Macross Galaxy fleet tried to make a show of keeping older model General Galaxy VFs in fighting shape, with mixed results.

I'd imagine it'd probably be cheaper to phase the VF-11s out for something designed with that equipment from the outset.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

That does remind me of the little amount of screen time the Regults had and their way of flight in both space and the atmosphere. IIRC the tv series had their legs out so they mover vertically in space, while in DYRL the legs seem to be "crotched over" like when they were in standby. Was this just a visual liberty done for the movie or is there an explanation for it? Think I kinda like how the latter makes the Regult even more compact looking.

The Regults do use the thrusters in their feet for maneuvering, though I think that's just an angle-of-the-shot thing in DYRL.

 

11 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Yeah, no kidding! On another side point, love how the VB-6's Battroid form is so huge we never get the full height counting the rail guns. And I always wondered how giant sized Zentradi could fit inside the Variable Glaug/Neo Glaug. But then I remember how very compact the Regult and regular Glaug are and I stop asking questions. 😆

The five word motto of almost everything designed for the Zentradi:

"Operator comfort was not considered."

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"Operator comfort was not considered."

Because relative to their size most of their mecha is small. Imagine if they had ones bigger.