The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[pengbuzz]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or simply that we're looking at snapshots of what they could do at radically different points in their history.

Unlike many ancient precursors in fiction, they don't seem to have hit a technological plateau and stopped advancing even after their civilization started falling apart.  They kept building newer, more advanced, and more irresponsibly dangerous nonsense.

Agreed; no race is simply static in their abilities. I just wanted to point out an option that allowed for the divisions that led to Protoculture trying to blow itself into tiny bits with their high-tech Holy Hand-Grenades of Antioch.  I also suspect that as the conflicts went on, each faction/ side became increasingly more desperate and thus willing to try ever-riskier tech and ideas.

On that note: what truly makes me shudder is that what has been discovered so far of the Protoculture's tech is probably only a very small amount, and that what lies out there yet to be uncovered may very well be even more frightening. If the Evils (Protodevlin) are any indication, then we've seen very little of what their technology and progress was really capable of.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Agreed; no race is simply static in their abilities. I just wanted to point out an option that allowed for the divisions that led to Protoculture trying to blow itself into tiny bits with their high-tech Holy Hand-Grenades of Antioch.  I also suspect that as the conflicts went on, each faction/ side became increasingly more desperate and thus willing to try ever-riskier tech and ideas.

Up to a point, anyway... the Protoculture's civil war - the Stellar Republic dissolution conflict - came to an abrupt end when the Protodeviln emerged and attacked both sides, so past a certain point the irresponsibly dangerous inventions weren't a product of an arms race anymore.  They were just building irresponsible stuff for the hell of it, or because they wanted to use one or another of them to improve the situation of their species.

 

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

On that note: what truly makes me shudder is that what has been discovered so far of the Protoculture's tech is probably only a very small amount, and that what lies out there yet to be uncovered may very well be even more frightening. If the Evils (Protodevlin) are any indication, then we've seen very little of what their technology and progress was really capable of.

Which makes the Spacy's decision to bomb the Windermere IV ruins out of this dimension entirely awfully prescient... they know enough to know there are things the Protoculture left behind that oughtn't be messed with.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Up to a point, anyway... the Protoculture's civil war - the Stellar Republic dissolution conflict - came to an abrupt end when the Protodeviln emerged and attacked both sides, so past a certain point the irresponsibly dangerous inventions weren't a product of an arms race anymore.  They were just building irresponsible stuff for the hell of it, or because they wanted to use one or another of them to improve the situation of their species.

With all of that said: I'm starting now to get the impression that the Protoculture were basically Space Goofy asking Mickey to "hold my beer"...

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 they know enough to know there are things the Protoculture left behind that oughtn't be messed with.

Like 3000-5000 Zentraedi Main Fleets, for example...

[TG Remix]

Rewatching some VF-X2 walkthroughs again, I'm curious about the use of X-9 Ghosts in not only Macross City's Defense Line (Mission 11B My Fair Lady) and those deployed from the Macross 13 (Mission 12: Remember Love.) In-universe their mass produced counterparts QF-4000 (AIF-7S) were in production circa 2045, 5-6  years before VF-X2's events, but I'm wondering since it was a game released before their appearance in Frontier, I'm wondering why would the UN make more of them after the Ghost Project was abandoned after Sharon's stint.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Rewatching some VF-X2 walkthroughs again, I'm curious about the use of X-9 Ghosts in not only Macross City's Defense Line (Mission 11B My Fair Lady) and those deployed from the Macross 13 (Mission 12: Remember Love.) In-universe their mass produced counterparts QF-4000 (AIF-7S) were in production circa 2045, 5-6  years before VF-X2's events, but I'm wondering since it was a game released before their appearance in Frontier, I'm wondering why would the UN make more of them after the Ghost Project was abandoned after Sharon's stint.

Eh... well, this is one of those areas where the explanation starts to feel a bit like "exact words" rules lawyering from the showrunners.

The Ghost X-9 wasn't developed simply to be a next-generation unmanned fighter.  It was developed as a fully-autonomous next-generation unmanned fighter intended to supplant manned fighters as the main fighter of the New UN Forces.  When Sharon Apple went berserk and seized control over the Ghost X-9 prototype (and the Neo Glaug prototype in the Game Edition), the ensuing scandal and necessary coverup convinced the New UN Government and New UN Forces that a fully-autonomous unmanned main fighter just wasn't a good idea with the available technology.  So they cancelled their plans to adopt the Ghost X-9 (AIF-9) as the next main fighter of the New UN Forces and instead awarded a win to the YF-19 in Project Super Nova. 

What got cancelled wasn't the next-gen Ghost itself... but the plans to make a fully-autonomous version the next main fighter.  Install a more traditional AI control system in there and/or put program restraints on the autonomous air combat program used by the Ghost X-9, and you've got an extremely high-performance next-generation semi-autonomous unmanned fighter.  Instead of becoming the next main fighter, derivatives of the Ghost X-9 like the AIF-9B, AIF-7S, and AIF-9V instead replaced older models of Ghost in a supporting role in the New UN Forces as seen in Frontier.

[TG Remix]

I see that makes a bit more sense. It's funny to think every single contender in Project Super Nova just never really had their intended purpose fully realized. Even with VF-19's and AIF-7S becoming main fighters in certain fleets it's through noticeable limitations.

Though on the subject of Sharon, I read after she took over Macross City, the whole truth of the matter of the incident was only known by the UN government and her music was banned for a bit (at least until by the time of 7.) But by Frontier and Delta it seems like the Sharon Apple Incident, or at least most of the truth, is more common knowledge then before. I'm just wondering when was the time frame people know about her going insane or even her mind controlling people through music.

[RedWolf]

In Macross VF-X2 the mass produced version of the X-9 Ghost is designated the AIF-9B.

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though on the subject of Sharon, I read after she took over Macross City, the whole truth of the matter of the incident was only known by the UN government and her music was banned for a bit (at least until by the time of 7.) But by Frontier and Delta it seems like the Sharon Apple Incident, or at least most of the truth, is more common knowledge then before. I'm just wondering when was the time frame people know about her going insane or even her mind controlling people through music.

Well, considering that Macross Plus took place circa 2040 AD, and Delta is set around 2067, that's about a good 27 years after the incident. I can see it being about at least 2060 before anything was even allowed outside of "most secret" status, and then, only redacted info that didn't directly implicate anyone in the upper echelon directly.

[RedWolf]

As far as we know what was kept secret was the YF-19 and YF-21 breaking through the defense grid that it was still secret in 2051. I don't think they can keep secret the whole mind control thing with Sharon Apple. After several incidences afterwards involving mind control I think most of NUN would consider it as a war crime. 

[pengbuzz]

31 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

As far as we know what was kept secret was the YF-19 and YF-21 breaking through the defense grid that it was still secret in 2051. I don't think they can keep secret the whole mind control thing with Sharon Apple. After several incidences afterwards involving mind control I think most of NUN would consider it as a war crime. 

Right; that would have given Earth's enemies a lot of leverage.

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I see that makes a bit more sense. It's funny to think every single contender in Project Super Nova just never really had their intended purpose fully realized. Even with VF-19's and AIF-7S becoming main fighters in certain fleets it's through noticeable limitations.

Blame the YF-19... it was just too gosh-darned heroic-looking, so Kawamori replaced it with the less main character-y VF-171 Nightmare Plus for Macross Frontier and beyond.

The one that came closest to winning was, amusingly, the Ghost.  Because the economized derivatives of the Ghost X-9 like the AIF-7S/QF-4000 are high-performance unmanned fighters that cost only 1/3 of what the VF-171 does and operating them doesn't involve putting a flesh-and-blood pilot at risk, the next-generation Ghosts still ended up effectively sharing the main fighter role with the VF-171 in most places.  In a few emigrant government air forces, the semi-autonomous Ghosts derived from the X-9 became the next main fighter anyway despite lacking full autonomous capability.

 

12 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though on the subject of Sharon, I read after she took over Macross City, the whole truth of the matter of the incident was only known by the UN government and her music was banned for a bit (at least until by the time of 7.) But by Frontier and Delta it seems like the Sharon Apple Incident, or at least most of the truth, is more common knowledge then before. I'm just wondering when was the time frame people know about her going insane or even her mind controlling people through music.

Yeah, the New UN Government had good reason to cover up certain aspects of the Sharon Apple project.  Exactly how much of the story was given to the civilian population is not entirely clear, but they seem to have at least been aware that Sharon Apple went berserk (via the ban on responsive/interactive virtuoids), that she used her music to hypnotize the populace (via the ban on her music), that the military was involved in stopping her, and that some of the underlying technology used in her design was to blame (because that tech was subjected to operational and export restrictions or bans).

What the general public probably didn't get told is that the Sharon-type AI was actually a military project and that the stuff she did on her rampage was simply using capabilities she had been designed with.  You see, the Sharon-type AI was developed as a support system for management of emigrant fleets.  Its original design intent was to employ audiovisual subliminal hypnosis to allieviate stresses and tensions experienced by emigrant populations in transit and prevent the kind of rioting and social disruptions that occurred aboard a number of early emigrant ships due to their comparatively harsh living conditions.  As an additional function, it was also outfitted with the means to take direct control over a fleet during an emergency.  The idol career of the virtuoid "Sharon Apple" was a paper-thin cover story for carrying out field testing and data collection on the Sharon-type AI's hypnosis capabilities.

[RedWolf]

When you think about it the government has a convenient scapegoat In Marge Guldoa. The guy went crazy killing the producer before Sharon Apple went berserk and committed "suicide".  Given how he looks and voiced by Sho Hayami I presume he is a Max clone. 

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

When you think about it the government has a convenient scapegoat In Marge Guldoa. The guy went crazy killing the producer before Sharon Apple went berserk and committed "suicide".

Not a scapegoat, but an authentic malicious actor who was directly responsible for the Sharon-type AI going out of control.

Macross Chronicle is pretty clear on the subject of it being Marge Gueldoa's installation of an illegal bio-neural processor in the Sharon-type AI system that caused Sharon to form an ego around the emotion data sampled from Myung Fang Lone and subsequently go crazy rampage nuts.  The Sharon-type AI had already shown some instability and tendency to hostile action beforehand, but it was the bio-neural processor that made self-awareness and the ensuing Hal 9000 moment possible.

[TG Remix]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The one that came closest to winning was, amusingly, the Ghost.  Because the economized derivatives of the Ghost X-9 like the AIF-7S/QF-4000 are high-performance unmanned fighters that cost only 1/3 of what the VF-171 does and operating them doesn't involve putting a flesh-and-blood pilot at risk, the next-generation Ghosts still ended up effectively sharing the main fighter role with the VF-171 in most places.  In a few emigrant government air forces, the semi-autonomous Ghosts derived from the X-9 became the next main fighter anyway despite lacking full autonomous capability.

Well, a certain YF-19 test pilot probably wouldn't be too happy to find that out. 😅 Though I'm kinda surprised the introduction of a potential all-unmanned fleet and the lift of the banned Sharon music only took five years to do so. Would've assumed at least for the former they were a decentralized NUNS effect around 2050 then right on 2045.

Though if Macross Plus: Game Edition is to be believed, the Neo Glaug got off pretty well with it's updated variant as the VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug bis. what with its own Pinpoint Barrier System and ability to control 3 unmmaned fighters as well. Though, I'm not sure if even though it's not as high performing as the VF-19 and VF-22, the fact only a Meltran could tap to its full potential makes me wonder if they were built in considerable widescale numbers.

[TG Remix]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You see, the Sharon-type AI was developed as a support system for management of emigrant fleets.  Its original design intent was to employ audiovisual subliminal hypnosis to allieviate stresses and tensions experienced by emigrant populations in transit and prevent the kind of rioting and social disruptions that occurred aboard a number of early emigrant ships due to their comparatively harsh living conditions.  As an additional function, it was also outfitted with the means to take direct control over a fleet during an emergency.  The idol career of the virtuoid "Sharon Apple" was a paper-thin cover story for carrying out field testing and data collection on the Sharon-type AI's hypnosis capabilities.

Sorry for the double posting, but I just caught this too. Makes a lot of practical sense. I know 7 production wise came out shortly after and during Plus, but not considering how the New Macross colonization ships had better living conditions then the Megaroad class, those long distance colony fleets could take a long while before finding a good planet to live in and, well could drive anyone insane, Though now you mention it I didn't realize how much mind control was in the whole franchise after SDF until now.

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Well, a certain YF-19 test pilot probably wouldn't be too happy to find that out. 😅 

He was probably a bit preoccupied, since the New UN Forces rewarded him for his "heroism" in a suitably karmic way that suited their actual feelings on the matter.  They put him on the promotion track to a desk job and kept him plenty busy so he wouldn't have time to get into trouble.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though I'm kinda surprised the introduction of a potential all-unmanned fleet and the lift of the banned Sharon music only took five years to do so. Would've assumed at least for the former they were a decentralized NUNS effect around 2050 then right on 2045.

Issues with the control AI aside, the Ghost X-9 was essentially a finished design already nominally approved for adoption by the New UN Forces.  There wasn't a lot that needed to be done to get it production-ready except some minor tweaking and replacement of the AI with an older, more stable semi-autonomous type.  It's significantly simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a Valkyrie, esp. a 4th Gen Valkyrie with advanced techy bits like pinpoint barriers and thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines.

Sharon Apple's music was kind of the same deal.  The music itself wasn't necessarily at fault, the media just needed to be sanitized to remove any traces of Sharon's interactive audiovisual subliminal protocols before it could go back on shelves.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though if Macross Plus: Game Edition is to be believed, the Neo Glaug got off pretty well with it's updated variant as the VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug bis. what with its own Pinpoint Barrier System and ability to control 3 unmmaned fighters as well. Though, I'm not sure if even though it's not as high performing as the VF-19 and VF-22, the fact only a Meltran could tap to its full potential makes me wonder if they were built in considerable widescale numbers.

Presumably the benefits of having been developed as a conversion of a manned fighter... it could be converted back into a manned fighter without a huge amount of effort while retaining many or all of the improvements.  Given that, in the Macross Frontier novelization, Temjin of the NUNS 33rd Marines uses a Neo Glaug bis as his fighter in place of that Queadluun-Rhea/56 he used in the TV anime its specs are likely on the high end for a 4th Generation VF just as the Neo Glaug posed a similar level of challenge for Isamu in the game edition as the Ghost did for Guld in Macross Plus proper.

 

5 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Sorry for the double posting, but I just caught this too. Makes a lot of practical sense. I know 7 production wise came out shortly after and during Plus, but not considering how the New Macross colonization ships had better living conditions then the Megaroad class, those long distance colony fleets could take a long while before finding a good planet to live in and, well could drive anyone insane, Though now you mention it I didn't realize how much mind control was in the whole franchise after SDF until now.

One thing to remember is that some of these explanations are post-facto justifications Macross's creators came up with to better tie things together.

Macross Plus is an especially odd case, since it wasn't originally conceived as a Macross title at all... they just kind of applied a thin Macross veneer to the existing story.

[TG Remix]

23 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

He was probably a bit preoccupied, since the New UN Forces rewarded him for his "heroism" in a suitably karmic way that suited their actual feelings on the matter.  They put him on the promotion track to a desk job and kept him plenty busy so he wouldn't have time to get into trouble.

Well that's one way to keep him grounded. 😆

 

28 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Issues with the control AI aside, the Ghost X-9 was essentially a finished design already nominally approved for adoption by the New UN Forces.  There wasn't a lot that needed to be done to get it production-ready except some minor tweaking and replacement of the AI with an older, more stable semi-autonomous type.  It's significantly simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a Valkyrie, esp. a 4th Gen Valkyrie with advanced techy bits like pinpoint barriers and thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines.

Sharon Apple's music was kind of the same deal.  The music itself wasn't necessarily at fault, the media just needed to be sanitized to remove any traces of Sharon's interactive audiovisual subliminal protocols before it could go back on shelves.

 Does illustrate that both the Ghost and the music wasn't the problem, but a mad scientist's involvement that slightly looks but completely sounds suspiciously like Max. Even in Macross, Show Hayami can't escape playing the villain!

 

31 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Presumably the benefits of having been developed as a conversion of a manned fighter... it could be converted back into a manned fighter without a huge amount of effort while retaining many or all of the improvements.  Given that, in the Macross Frontier novelization, Temjin of the NUNS 33rd Marines uses a Neo Glaug bis as his fighter in place of that Queadluun-Rhea/56 he used in the TV anime its specs are likely on the high end for a 4th Generation VF just as the Neo Glaug posed a similar level of challenge for Isamu in the game edition as the Ghost did for Guld in Macross Plus proper.

Could also look at the differences between that and the M3's Variable Glaug to the first and second generation VF-19 models; basic general shape with a noticeable difference in performance. Though on a similar note, I'm wondering about the VF-19P and if it was an export model that was directly based off of Basara's custom, or it just so happened to look like it.

 

26 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Plus is an especially odd case, since it wasn't originally conceived as a Macross title at all... they just kind of applied a thin Macross veneer to the existing story.

That...Is entirely new to me! Definitely explains a lot regarding the series tone all things considered.

On the topic of things Plus related, my mind goes to the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung, and how the Nothung II is three reassembled VF-11B's. Now I'm not sure if the Macross Wiki is a trustworthy source, but the Battroid and Gerwalk forms look almost exactly like the VF-19ACTIVE, which if those pictures are accurate I'm wondering how does a Thunderbolt look like an Excalibur in any shape or form.

[Seto Kaiba]

17 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Well that's one way to keep him grounded. 😆

In so many ways... that's what ultimately led to him becoming a reservist and then joining SMS by the late 2050s.

 

17 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Even in Macross, Show Hayami can't escape playing the villain!

Sure he can.  He plays Max in multiple shows, and by the time of Macross 7 or Macross Delta's second movie he's basically the storyline's Big Good.

(This season, he's reprising his role as Ferdinand in Ascendance of a Bookworm... also an unambiguously heroic character who just had another Big Damn Heroes moment in the most recent episode.)

 

17 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though on a similar note, I'm wondering about the VF-19P and if it was an export model that was directly based off of Basara's custom, or it just so happened to look like it.

Macross Chronicle offers the view that the VF-19P, like Basara's VF-19 Custom, is a derivative of the Spacy's VF-19F.

 

17 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

That...Is entirely new to me! Definitely explains a lot regarding the series tone all things considered.

Macross Plus is, essentially, a Macross-ized version of an orphaned non-Macross IP that Kawamori was working on c.1985 called Advanced Valkyrie.  It was about an organization called NOVA that was testing a competing pair of transformable fighters at Edwards AFB (on Earth).  Many of its designs eventually migrated into Macross after being recycled in various other series concepts incl. Air Cavalry Chronicles (the prototype for what became The Vision of Escaflowne) as the VF-9, VA-3, VF-X-11, etc.

 

17 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

On the topic of things Plus related, my mind goes to the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung, and how the Nothung II is three reassembled VF-11B's. Now I'm not sure if the Macross Wiki is a trustworthy source, but the Battroid and Gerwalk forms look almost exactly like the VF-19ACTIVE, which if those pictures are accurate I'm wondering how does a Thunderbolt look like an Excalibur in any shape or form.

Looking at it, someone screwed up... which is par for the course for that wiki unfortunately.

That's a picture of the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung from the Macross the Ride Visual Book.

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

What the general public probably didn't get told is that the Sharon-type AI was actually a military project and that the stuff she did on her rampage was simply using capabilities she had been designed with.  You see, the Sharon-type AI was developed as a support system for management of emigrant fleets.  Its original design intent was to employ audiovisual subliminal hypnosis to allieviate stresses and tensions experienced by emigrant populations in transit and prevent the kind of rioting and social disruptions that occurred aboard a number of early emigrant ships due to their comparatively harsh living conditions.  As an additional function, it was also outfitted with the means to take direct control over a fleet during an emergency.  The idol career of the virtuoid "Sharon Apple" was a paper-thin cover story for carrying out field testing and data collection on the Sharon-type AI's hypnosis capabilities.

And I suspect General Galaxy to be one of the main developers involved in that fiasco. I find it a strange coincidence that the Macross Galaxy fleet launched from Eden in 2031; nine years would allow for project development, and data and comparisons would be exchanged between the fleet and the military project.

I may be a bit off on my suspicions here, but I think there's a pretty good case for some type of connection.

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not a scapegoat, but an authentic malicious actor who was directly responsible for the Sharon-type AI going out of control.

Macross Chronicle is pretty clear on the subject of it being Marge Gueldoa's installation of an illegal bio-neural processor in the Sharon-type AI system that caused Sharon to form an ego around the emotion data sampled from Myung Fang Lone and subsequently go crazy rampage nuts.  The Sharon-type AI had already shown some instability and tendency to hostile action beforehand, but it was the bio-neural processor that made self-awareness and the ensuing Hal 9000 moment possible.

Yeah; Marge was shown obtaining the chip illicitly and then admitted to Sharon's manager that he had installed it. This freaked him out so badly that he attempted to halt the concert, only for Marge to kill him. Marge himself was also fairly unhinged I suspect, as his obsession with making Sharon fully autonomous led him to endanger everyone listening to the concert, and led to Sharon hypnotizing him into a long walk off an equally long Macross.

  

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Issues with the control AI aside, the Ghost X-9 was essentially a finished design already nominally approved for adoption by the New UN Forces.  There wasn't a lot that needed to be done to get it production-ready except some minor tweaking and replacement of the AI with an older, more stable semi-autonomous type.  It's significantly simpler and cheaper to manufacture than a Valkyrie, esp. a 4th Gen Valkyrie with advanced techy bits like pinpoint barriers and thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines.

Sharon Apple's music was kind of the same deal.  The music itself wasn't necessarily at fault, the media just needed to be sanitized to remove any traces of Sharon's interactive audiovisual subliminal protocols before it could go back on shelves.

Presumably the benefits of having been developed as a conversion of a manned fighter... it could be converted back into a manned fighter without a huge amount of effort while retaining many or all of the improvements.  Given that, in the Macross Frontier novelization, Temjin of the NUNS 33rd Marines uses a Neo Glaug bis as his fighter in place of that Queadluun-Rhea/56 he used in the TV anime its specs are likely on the high end for a 4th Generation VF just as the Neo Glaug posed a similar level of challenge for Isamu in the game edition as the Ghost did for Guld in Macross Plus proper.

Is it possible in story that one reason that the Unity Government wanted an unmanned fighter was so that they could produce it in vast numbers as a way to help even the odds should a Zentraedi Main Fleet find a settled world? It certainly wouldn't take as much time to produce as it would to train a new pilot, could produce more quickly, not need things like life support or to limit g-forces, not need the same radiation protection that a human-manned cockpit would require, and so forth?

On top of that: the hypnotizing feature I don't think was an unintended side effect.  I suspect that was a type of weapon designed to hypnotize enemy pilots and ship crew, making them far easier to take out in combat.

After the devastation wrought on Earthy in SW1, I can understand how the UN SPACY would not want that happening again, given many of them in the upper echelon were most likely veterans of that war.

Edited June 8, 2022 by pengbuzz
added info

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, pengbuzz said:

And I suspect General Galaxy to be one of the main developers involved in that fiasco. I find it a strange coincidence that the Macross Galaxy fleet launched from Eden in 2031; nine years would allow for project development, and data and comparisons would be exchanged between the fleet and the military project.

General Galaxy was probably involved given that they ended up as the manufacturers of the economized Ghosts modeled on the X-9.

That said, the main mover behind the Sharon-type AI was the a conglomerate called the Macross Concern.  The Palo Alto II Research Institute that created the Sharon-type AI and the Venus Sound Factory that was Sharon Apple's production company were among its subsidiaries.

 

Just now, pengbuzz said:

Yeah; Marge was shown obtaining the chip illicitly and then admitted to Sharon's manager that he had installed it. This freaked him out so badly that he attempted to halt the concert, only for Marge to kill him. Marge himself was also fairly unhinged I suspect, as his obsession with making Sharon fully autonomous led him to endanger everyone listening to the concert, and led to Sharon hypnotizing him into a long walk off an equally long Macross.

Considering the logo on the bio-neural chip might as well say "INSANE INSIDE", Marley had good reason to freak the hell out that such an expensive and dangerous piece of military grade AI hardware was now running on a processor notorious for producing erratic and dangerous behavior.

[pengbuzz]

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

General Galaxy was probably involved given that they ended up as the manufacturers of the economized Ghosts modeled on the X-9.

That said, the main mover behind the Sharon-type AI was the a conglomerate called the Macross Concern.  The Palo Alto II Research Institute that created the Sharon-type AI and the Venus Sound Factory that was Sharon Apple's production company were among its subsidiaries.

Yeah; doesn't surprise me that there were others involved in this.

 

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the logo on the bio-neural chip might as well say "INSANE INSIDE", Marley had good reason to freak the hell out that such an expensive and dangerous piece of military grade AI hardware was now running on a processor notorious for producing erratic and dangerous behavior.

Right? I recall that from a previous convo of ours; pretty much akin to finding out that someone programmed the T-800 Terminator with the Joker's brain!

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Is it possible in story that one reason that the Unity Government wanted an unmanned fighter was so that they could produce it in vast numbers as a way to help even the odds should a Zentraedi Main Fleet find a settled world? It certainly wouldn't take as much time to produce as it would to train a new pilot, could produce more quickly, not need things like life support or to limit g-forces, not need the same radiation protection that a human-manned cockpit would require, and so forth?

Not in those specific terms, no.

In-universe advocacy for the Ghost X-9 and its successors was on two or three basic talking points centered around reducing risks and costs:

1. A force made up of autonomous unmanned fighters can engage and defeat enemies without the need to put human lives at risk.
2. Unmanned fighters can exert the full potential of the technology used in their construction since they aren't limited by human reaction times and biological g-force limits.
3. Even semi-autonomous unmanned fighters are much cheaper to build and operate than Valkyries due to far less mechanical complexity and the lack of a pilot who needs to be housed, fed, trained, and draws benefits, etc.

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

On top of that: the hypnotizing feature I don't think was an unintended side effect.  I suspect that was a type of weapon designed to hypnotize enemy pilots and ship crew, making them far easier to take out in combat.

Oh, it wasn't unintentional at all... it was very much the primary purpose of the Sharon-type AI.  It wasn't meant to be used offensively, though.

Early emigrant fleets had issues with rioting because of their comparatively spartan living conditions and other difficulties.  The Sharon-type AI was meant to help mitigate those problems by helping an emigrant fleet's population keep calm and carry on.  Not mind control, but a sort of music-based relaxation hypnotherapy so the tensions that resulted in those riots wouldn't build up to the bursting point in the first place.  Way more humane than calling the riot police out to bust heads after things go pear-shaped or pumping their water or air supply full of mood stabilizers to calm everyone down.  But you know what they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

(A more malicious take on the idea was used by Macross Galaxy, who trapped their implant-using populace in augmented reality to help them escape the stresses of living in the fleet's awful conditions.)

[TG Remix]

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sure he can.  He plays Max in multiple shows, and by the time of Macross 7 or Macross Delta's second movie he's basically the storyline's Big Good.

Was just being tongue and cheek, that's all. 😄 Heck, Max remains one of my favorites in each entry he's in.

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle offers the view that the VF-19P, like Basara's VF-19 Custom, is a derivative of the Spacy's VF-19F.

It seems like between the VF-19P and even the VF-19EF (Although more sources lean the E-Type being a first generation), the second generation Excalibur seems to be the most popular when it comes to modifications, export models or not. I believe the F-Type was said to have a more simpler airframe?

 

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Looking at it, someone screwed up... which is par for the course for that wiki unfortunately.

That's a picture of the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung from the Macross the Ride Visual Book.

So I knew I wasn't going insane! The thing that threw me off the most was the wings do look different from the B-Type and C-Type.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

It seems like between the VF-19P and even the VF-19EF (Although more sources lean the E-Type being a first generation), the second generation Excalibur seems to be the most popular when it comes to modifications, export models or not. I believe the F-Type was said to have a more simpler airframe?

It's hard to say, in no small part because of the ambiguity surrounding the VF-19E's base design.

The VF-19 2nd mass production type exemplified by the VF-19F and VF-19S would be the logical point for customization for most purposes, since the 2nd mass production type's design benefitted from some structural simplification and a lot of additional refinement and polishing from Shinsei Industry's engineers in an attempt to address the problematic aircraft's stability and control issues.

That said, the 1st mass production type has its fair share... thanks in large part to Macross the Ride introducing several different customized VF-19s based on the A-type and the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army's local specification of the C-type (VF-19C/MG21).

[pengbuzz]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-19 2nd mass production type exemplified by the VF-19F and VF-19S would be the logical point for customization for most purposes, since the 2nd mass production type's design benefitted from some structural simplification and a lot of additional refinement and polishing from Shinsei Industry's engineers in an attempt to address the problematic aircraft's stability and control issues.

IRL: the F-16 was designed and built unstable in flight to promote greater maneuverability; stability came from the flight control computers and the then-new "fly-by-wire" technology. I was wondering if in the Macross universe, one of the ways they stabilized the 19F and 19S was the removal of the flight control program that was on the YF-19? I thought I recalled a discussion about one of the Macross Chronicles that stated such (part of what caused Isamu to try to get an illegal 19 in the first place)?

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

IRL: the F-16 was designed and built unstable in flight to promote greater maneuverability; stability came from the flight control computers and the then-new "fly-by-wire" technology. I was wondering if in the Macross universe, one of the ways they stabilized the 19F and 19S was the removal of the flight control program that was on the YF-19? I thought I recalled a discussion about one of the Macross Chronicles that stated such (part of what caused Isamu to try to get an illegal 19 in the first place)?

In general, fighters are designed to be at least somewhat unstable in flight because that instability is the root of their greater maneuverability.  That comes up in passing in Macross Delta during Hayate's first training flight when Hayate is complaining about the support AI not letting him fly the way he wants to.  Digital flight control systems help keep inherently unstable fighters flying straight and level until the pilot decides not to.

Where that became a problem for Shinsei Industry's YF-19 and VF-19 is that the design was so inherently unstable to achieve the greatest possible maneuverability that, even with the ARIEL airframe control AI's assistance, its handling was much too sensitive for the average pilot.  That, combined with its excessive engine power, made it so unstable that the prototype's evaluation had already hospitalized two test pilots and killed two more before Isamu was attached to the program and caused a number of loss-of-control accidents in the early phases of the military's effort to adopt the VF-19A.

Shinsei Industry spent years refinining the VF-19's design and its control AI software in a bid to improve its handling to the point that average pilots could fly it.  The VF-19F/S was one attempt to address those underlying problems, packaged with a bunch of other optimizations and improvements.  Unfortunately by that point it was too little too late and the revised arms export laws put an end to the attempts to phase in the VF-19 as a next main fighter that'd already been hobbled by its control issues and insane price tag.

Isamu being Isamu, he was having none of that when he tried to obtain a VF-19 for his own personal use at SMS.  He deliberately went with the original, badly unstable and unsafe, control AI software to get as close to the YF-19-2's handling as possible.

[TG Remix]

The mention of the VF-19's price tag got me thinking about the manufacturing capabilities of Factory Satellites. We kinda get the impression that they essentially did all the work for Zentradi, from food to mass producing their ships, battlepods, and battlesuits without the concern of money. Considering UN has 20 of them under their control, if one was to be modified for making more then just Regults and so on like the one captured in SDF, would cost only be a concern if colony fleets like long distance colony ships and frontier planets and fleets don't have access to factory satellites? 

Edited June 9, 2022 by TG Remix
More detail/context for my question

[Seto Kaiba]

20 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

The mention of the VF-19's price tag got me thinking about the manufacturing capabilities of Factory Satellites. We kinda get the impression that they essentially did all the work for Zentradi, from food to mass producing their ships, battlepods, and battlesuits without the concern of money. Considering UN has 20 of them under their control, if one was to be modified for making more then just Regults and so on like the one captured in SDF, would money only be a concern if colony fleets don't have access to factory satellites? 

Cost isn't purely a monetary function... it can also be expressed in terms of the amount of resources, labor, time, etc. needed to make something.

Even the ancient Protoculture had to consider cost and economize when it came to the equipment the Zentradi use.  The equipment the Zentradi use is ruthlessly economized for precisely that reason, and some high-performance weapons like the Queadluun-Rau battle suit never achieved widespread adoption in part because of their greater complexity or requirements for higher-than-typical grades of material.

Of course, when it comes to weapons designed and built by humans, the costs don't stop at the initial cost to manufacture the vehicle.  There are also maintenance costs related to operation both in terms of periodic maintenance and incidental damage repair.  The VF-19 is an extremely complex aircraft with a lot of cutting edge high-tech systems, so it has a high initial cost in terms of manufacturing those systems and assembling them all, as well as a high cost of operation in order to maintain it.

Even with the support of factory satellites, that's still a big investment of time, resources, and so on for such a complex build.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[TG Remix]

41 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of course, when it comes to weapons designed and built by humans, the costs don't stop at the initial cost to manufacture the vehicle.  There are also maintenance costs related to operation both in terms of periodic maintenance and incidental damage repair.  The VF-19 is an extremely complex aircraft with a lot of cutting edge high-tech systems, so it has a high initial cost in terms of manufacturing those systems and assembling them all, as well as a high cost of operation in order to maintain it.

Maintenance costs and the Queadluun-Rau points are ones that I didn't consider, huh. Yeah the simpler airframe the second generation VF-19's would fix those issues, but again, too little too late. Even by the time the Macross 7 was using them the VF-171 had it's first flight in 2046, so seems the over-success of the Excalibur was too big to ignore. Though I could assume even with the VF-171 in mind, since it's not the only variable fighter on sale by Frontier (Or hasn't even been adopted galaxy wide either) it's not unlikely some fleets still do have it as their main fighter.

Edited June 9, 2022 by TG Remix
Added a extra sentence

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, TG Remix said:

Maintenance costs and the Queadluun-Rau points are ones that I didn't consider, huh. Yeah the simpler airframe the second generation VF-19's would fix those issues, but again, too little too late.

The 2nd mass production type did attempt to address the handling issues and some other problems, but the cost and complexity issues were largely unfixable thanks to the high performance design and overall high complexity.  Shinsei was still grapping with some of those problems even into the mid-to-late 2050s, well past the point that the VF-19's long term viability was no longer relevant.

 

Just now, TG Remix said:

Even by the time the Macross 7 was using them the VF-171 had it's first flight in 2046, so seems the over-success of the Excalibur was too big to ignore.

Based on the VF-171's development history, the issues with the VF-19A reared their ugly head very early and the New UN Forces quickly realized they needed to develop a 4th Gen VF that ease of operation and versatility mattered much more than simply having the highest possible performance.  The cornerstone of the VF-171's success was that it had the best possible cost-performance thanks to being developed from a proven design, simplified to make it easier to build and maintain, and prioritized ease of handling to enable the average pilot to get the most out of it.  It still met all the objectives of Project Super Nova, but it prioritized the end user over simply red raw specs.

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In general, fighters are designed to be at least somewhat unstable in flight because that instability is the root of their greater maneuverability.  That comes up in passing in Macross Delta during Hayate's first training flight when Hayate is complaining about the support AI not letting him fly the way he wants to.  Digital flight control systems help keep inherently unstable fighters flying straight and level until the pilot decides not to.

Yeah, that is what I was getting at; the F-16 they said in particular was built highly unstable for that reason.

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Where that became a problem for Shinsei Industry's YF-19 and VF-19 is that the design was so inherently unstable to achieve the greatest possible maneuverability that, even with the ARIEL airframe control AI's assistance, its handling was much too sensitive for the average pilot.  That, combined with its excessive engine power, made it so unstable that the prototype's evaluation had already hospitalized two test pilots and killed two more before Isamu was attached to the program and caused a number of loss-of-control accidents in the early phases of the military's effort to adopt the VF-19A.

In other words: it took an equally unstable meathead like Isamu to pilot it! lol

Seriously though: I think UN Spacy wanted something that wouldn't turn its' pilots into gaspatcho just trying to do a basic maneuver.

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Shinsei Industry spent years refinining the VF-19's design and its control AI software in a bid to improve its handling to the point that average pilots could fly it.  The VF-19F/S was one attempt to address those underlying problems, packaged with a bunch of other optimizations and improvements.  Unfortunately by that point it was too little too late and the revised arms export laws put an end to the attempts to phase in the VF-19 as a next main fighter that'd already been hobbled by its control issues and insane price tag.

Right? Also, I suspect by the time they could get it to that point, it pretty much defeated the main points of the VF-19: acceleration and maneuverability. And that probably reinforced the entire concept of taking the flesh and blood pilot out of the cockpit.

 

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Isamu being Isamu, he was having none of that when he tried to obtain a VF-19 for his own personal use at SMS.  He deliberately went with the original, badly unstable and unsafe, control AI software to get as close to the YF-19-2's handling as possible.

I suspect if Isamu had his way, he'd try to get the original YF-19 he flew back. I know he tried to get one very similar and got caught (which led to Yan scarfing his retirement fund).

  

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Cost isn't purely a monetary function... it can also be expressed in terms of the amount of resources, labor, time, etc. needed to make something.

Even the ancient Protoculture had to consider cost and economize when it came to the equipment the Zentradi use.  The equipment the Zentradi use is ruthlessly economized for precisely that reason, and some high-performance weapons like the Queadluun-Rau battle suit never achieved widespread adoption in part because of their greater complexity or requirements for higher-than-typical grades of material.

Of course, when it comes to weapons designed and built by humans, the costs don't stop at the initial cost to manufacture the vehicle.  There are also maintenance costs related to operation both in terms of periodic maintenance and incidental damage repair.  The VF-19 is an extremely complex aircraft with a lot of cutting edge high-tech systems, so it has a high initial cost in terms of manufacturing those systems and assembling them all, as well as a high cost of operation in order to maintain it.

Even with the support of factory satellites, that's still a big investment of time, resources, and so on for such a complex build.

Exactly: highly specialized systems and complex mechanics also cost time and effort to maintain. In maintenance, you have to often check components, exchange consumables and worn parts, fluids and other sensitives, and highly complicated systems require much greater care, as well as even having to remove components to get at other ones in tightly packed areas. This cost can really show in combat situations where time and effort are tightly compressed and often at a premium.

  

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The 2nd mass production type did attempt to address the handling issues and some other problems, but the cost and complexity issues were largely unfixable thanks to the high performance design and overall high complexity.  Shinsei was still grapping with some of those problems even into the mid-to-late 2050s, well past the point that the VF-19's long term viability was no longer relevant.

Is that the reason Max assigned the 19 only to Emerald Force in Macross 7? I suspect it took the likes of Docker to be able to fly such a touchy fighter.

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Based on the VF-171's development history, the issues with the VF-19A reared their ugly head very early and the New UN Forces quickly realized they needed to develop a 4th Gen VF that ease of operation and versatility mattered much more than simply having the highest possible performance.  The cornerstone of the VF-171's success was that it had the best possible cost-performance thanks to being developed from a proven design, simplified to make it easier to build and maintain, and prioritized ease of handling to enable the average pilot to get the most out of it.  It still met all the objectives of Project Super Nova, but it prioritized the end user over simply red raw specs.

I'm surprised that they didn't go with this earlier than they did!

 

 

 

*This post is printed on recycled monitor screen*

Edited June 9, 2022 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Seriously though: I think UN Spacy wanted something that wouldn't turn its' pilots into gaspatcho just trying to do a basic maneuver.

Hence right after Project Supernova Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy worked together for a VF version of Inertia Vector Control System. What would be the Inertial Store Converter was initially bulky. Shinsei  worked out the kinks making it smaller but mass production came down to cost. The most efficient ISC needed Fold Quartz. We have to note the VF-31A uses also the ISC but Fold Quartz is not listed as special equipment but Fold Carbon. The VF-31A probably use a higher grade Fold Carbon for its ISC that is far more available but it still has the same issues as the Queadluun series. Fielding them is still expensive. 

No wonder some polities are slow in adopting Fifth Generation VF. 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Is that the reason Max assigned the 19 only to Emerald Force in Macross 7? I suspect it took the likes of Docker to be able to fly such a touchy fighter.

Back when the series was first airing, I'm sure the reasoning was closer to it being a brand-new, ultra-high performance fighter and special forces pilots who'd already been used to a similar level of performance on an older model (the VF-17) being best suited to transition to it in a hurry.

Post-Frontier, yeah that plus cost was likely the reason that the Macross 7 fleet only built ~4 VF-19s and a similar number of VF-22s.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Hence right after Project Supernova Shinsei Industry and General Galaxy worked together for a VF version of Inertia Vector Control System. What would be the Inertial Store Converter was initially bulky. Shinsei  worked out the kinks making it smaller but mass production came down to cost. The most efficient ISC needed Fold Quartz.

That's one of those nods to real world situations Kawamori likes throwing in.  Lockheed Martin's prototype won the ATF program, but they awarded construction contracts to Boeing also so the two companies ended up collaborating on construction of the F-22.

General Galaxy had already toyed with putting the Queadluun-Rau's Inertia Vector Control System into the VF-22.  It just wasn't designed for the kind of sustained high-g punishment that the VF-22 (and VF-19) produced when operating to their full potential, so a better solution was needed.

 

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

We have to note the VF-31A uses also the ISC but Fold Quartz is not listed as special equipment but Fold Carbon.

That's unrelated... the VF-31A does use fold quartz in its Inertia Store Converter and achieves performance comparable to the ISC used in the earlier VF-25 and VF-27.

Where it adopts fold carbon is in the fold wave amplifiers on the dorsal fuselage.  The Siegfried Custom version uses fold quartz in its amps instead.  That's why it's listed as Special Equipment.

 

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

No wonder some polities are slow in adopting Fifth Generation VF. 

While access to fold quartz is absolutely a major factor in the adoption of 5th Generation VFs, that has a lot to do with the financial and strategic concerns involved as well.

The Macross Frontier and Macross Galaxy fleets rushed to develop their own 5th Generation VFs because they were deliberately heading into Vajra space for their own reasons (the fold quartz "gold rush" and Galaxy's implant network plan), so they needed a Valkyrie that could keep up with the Vajra in combat should the need arise.

Other emigrant governments, especially those living well away from current or former Vajra space, would not have anywhere near the strategic incentive to adopt the 5th Generation VFs quickly.  Those with limited or no access to fold quartz or more average economies would naturally have to balance their priorities rather differently.  The Brisingr Alliance made the VF-31 not because they actually needed a 5th Generation VF right away but because they were looking to use exports to stimulate their economy.  They were sitting on a small mountain of fold quartz and desperately needed something to get cash flowing into the cluster.

[pengbuzz]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:52 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Considering the logo on the bio-neural chip might as well say "INSANE INSIDE", Marley had good reason to freak the hell out that such an expensive and dangerous piece of military grade AI hardware was now running on a processor notorious for producing erratic and dangerous behavior.

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by pengbuzz

[TG Remix]

On 6/9/2022 at 9:13 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Back when the series was first airing, I'm sure the reasoning was closer to it being a brand-new, ultra-high performance fighter and special forces pilots who'd already been used to a similar level of performance on an older model (the VF-17) being best suited to transition to it in a hurry.

With both times Docker's men fell like flies I always saw that as the series prepping up the VF-19 as the new cannon fodder anyways. 😆

 

Some questions I had regarding ship development. Macross 7 showed not only City 7 docking with Battle 7, but the other ships of the fleet docking with the Guantánamo  and Uraga carriers (Such as the Sunnyflower and Hollywood ships, though I forgot the Three Star Factory ship docked with a Northampton stealth frigate.) It makes me wonder if the mass production of the New Macross colonization ships inspired ship-docking with smaller carriers, or the other way around. And was it ever said when the Macross Quarter and Elysion classes began to be built? A part of me wondered if the latter was built earlier, at least in a Late Universal Century (And our 21st century) sense where technology shrinks but gets more powerful.

Edited June 13, 2022 by TG Remix