The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[JB0]

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

 

Er... you guys realize I was joking, right?

Taking jokes seriously and offering thorough analysis: a MacrossWorld tradition.

[azrael]

10 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Taking jokes seriously and offering thorough analysis: a MacrossWorld tradition.

I was going to say, there's nowhere in any multiverse that junk mail DOESN'T exist. 😭 Extended warranty on fold drives, Windermerian princes who will offer you large amounts of fold quartz, some General Galaxy banking subsidiary who will offer 0% APR (Terms and Conditions apply).

[TG Remix]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:44 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Government is building emigrant ships at a downright blistering pace and launching them at a rate of one or two a year.  One detail revealed in Macross Frontier is that Earth is no longer the only planet doing so.  Eden's shipyards are also engaged in the business of producing emigrant fleets.

Of course, like any major government undertaking - especially one with such extensive military involvement - the construction and launching of emigrant fleets is shot through with involvement from special interests.  Not only do you have to build the emigrant ship and the dozens or hundreds of escort warships and auxiliary ships that support it, and select a population to inhabit it on its voyage, you also have to establish a working government on that emigrant ship, a functioning economy, etc. to provide for the ship's population while the fleet is in transit.  In the larger emigrant fleets, this inevitably means large corporations and other such entities get involved and establish presences aboard, and wield at least some influence over the government.  

 

Right, have to remember the first emigrant fleets weren't really all said to be that big beforehand. Think it even reflects in the ships used as well; iirc the Plus/7 era ships (The Guantanamo, Northampton, Uraga,etc.) are relatively new and before that used/newly built Zentradi ships were being used for the UN Spacy forces. Regardless, it would make sense that planning those out would take lots of time. So to get the gist, even if numerically a New Macross battle ship is already constructed it could take a pretty decent long time for it to get itself an entire fleet to travel with? Sorry if I'm just repeating the same stuff again.

 

On 4/22/2022 at 4:55 PM, RedWolf said:

Considering several mentions and illustrations of expansion. Orion Spiral Arm that is  given. Come Macross 7 several fleets courses lead them to the core region of the Galaxy.  Macross Frontier explicitly said they are on the Saggitarius Carina Spra Arm. Though still corewards. The setting of Macross Delta has it around the rim more specifically in illustration the a Globular Cluster at the end of the Saggitarius Carina Spiral Arm.

Thus it becomes clear. Some fleets are not randomly exploring they are going for old Protoculture territory where there is high chance for a habitable A class planet. 

On 4/22/2022 at 9:43 PM, sketchley said:

Elaborating on this:

There are 2 general types of Emigrant Fleet:

• short range (within 100 light years of Earth)
• super long range (beyond 100 light years, arguably thousands of light years)

The short range ones started first, and one of those discovered Eden.

 

Based on that, we can speculate that the region closest to Earth (100+ light years from Earth) is the most explored, most developed, and most colonized.  It is arguably comparable to the UFoP in Star Trek (but more like a collection of fully independent countries rather than under the control of one mammoth government).

Beyond that 'core', it is literally pinpricks of human settlement in a vast sea of darkness.

 

With the discussion of emigrant fleet traveling, I did think about the purpose of the SDFN class. They were built to investigate and secure routes for long distance colonization ships (Whether that's for the Megaroad's or New Macross'.) So I'm assuming if emigrant fleets weren't travelling to the core of the galaxy, the SDFN's (or research fleets anywhere) are for more potential planets outside? Maybe that would've helped the Macross 5 being jumped by Protodevlin, Or am I just overthinking a reason for Kawamori to have another SDF Macross in his story, lol.

 

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

Taking jokes seriously and offering thorough analysis: a MacrossWorld tradition.

So I'm perfect for the forum 🤪

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So to get the gist, even if numerically a New Macross battle ship is already constructed it could take a pretty decent long time for it to get itself an entire fleet to travel with? Sorry if I'm just repeating the same stuff again.

Short answer: yes.  Not only do all the escort ships (both military and living support) have to be built, they also have to be outfitted, and then crewed.  During the process, several hundred thousand citizens (aka emigrants) also have to be settled into their new city.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

With the discussion of emigrant fleet traveling, I did think about the purpose of the SDFN class. They were built to investigate and secure routes for long distance colonization ships (Whether that's for the Megaroad's or New Macross'.) So I'm assuming if emigrant fleets weren't travelling to the core of the galaxy, the SDFN's (or research fleets anywhere) are for more potential planets outside? Maybe that would've helped the Macross 5 being jumped by Protodevlin, Or am I just overthinking a reason for Kawamori to have another SDF Macross in his story, lol.

If memory serves, the SDFN class were produced during the initial years of the program.  Their main mission was to spread humanity out in the galaxy—just in case the Zentradi came back to finish glassing the Earth.

The official materials state that they were the initial pathfinders (as you mentioned) for travel routes outbound from Earth.  It's not directly stated, but given the other details we know, it's fairly safe to say that they were also involved in the short range emigrant fleets (one may have even discovered Planet Eden).

At some time after the introduction of the Megaroad class, the SDFN class was discontinued.  From what we can glean from Macross Frontier, some (perhaps all) were retired from the emigrant mission, and turned into the flagships of smaller research fleets, etc.

 

Sadly, this is dabbling in the era that even Japanese Macross fans lament as they refer to the "great blank period".  There just aren't that many details about it.

[RedWolf]

In the case of planets Pripure and Ouroboros the SDFN class settled as part of their capitals. 

[pengbuzz]

13 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, but we're terribly pedantic and will take literally any excuse to exposit.  

 

13 hours ago, JB0 said:

Taking jokes seriously and offering thorough analysis: a MacrossWorld tradition.

 

13 hours ago, azrael said:

I was going to say, there's nowhere in any multiverse that junk mail DOESN'T exist. 😭 Extended warranty on fold drives, Windermerian princes who will offer you large amounts of fold quartz, some General Galaxy banking subsidiary who will offer 0% APR (Terms and Conditions apply).

Okay...I walked into this one, didn't I? lol

[TG Remix]

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

Short answer: yes.  Not only do all the escort ships (both military and living support) have to be built, they also have to be outfitted, and then crewed.  During the process, several hundred thousand citizens (aka emigrants) also have to be settled into their new city.

 

I also realized that most of the issues regarding launch dates come from how early the likes of the 5th generation ships were launched. Macross 1-9 seemed like they were launched numerically, but with the likes of Galaxy and 29 they seem to be all over the place.

Speaking of Macross 13, I'm aware the Battle class wasn't assigned to a colony fleet, but theoretically would there have been a 43rd Super Long Distance Emigrant Fleet that's called the Macross 13?

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

Sadly, this is dabbling in the era that even Japanese Macross fans lament as they refer to the "great blank period".  There just aren't that many details about it.

Yeah, even we got more information between 7 and Frontier. There's the whole thing about Mass Cloning (which probably is the explanation for why there's so many humans after SDFM) and the fallout of that program with hereditary issues (iirc the abandoned city in Plus was where they lived) and it's so funny from Isamu's military record, something as important sounding as the UN Revolution War is just background fluff for our crazy pilot to be apart of.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Right, have to remember the first emigrant fleets weren't really all said to be that big beforehand. Think it even reflects in the ships used as well; iirc the Plus/7 era ships (The Guantanamo, Northampton, Uraga,etc.) are relatively new and before that used/newly built Zentradi ships were being used for the UN Spacy forces. Regardless, it would make sense that planning those out would take lots of time.

Emigrant fleets - the large-scale long distance ones anyway - have been steadily growing in size over the years and have gone through at least five generations of emigrant ship design by the time of Macross Frontier.

The earliest fleets using the 1st Generation emigrant ships (Megaroad-class) were small affairs of a few dozen ships centered on a single Megaroad-class emigrant ship, with around 80,000 people in total (25,000 resident on the Megaroad).  Master File at one point puts the typical emigrant defense force for planets colonized in that period at around 60 ships... Spica III's defense force being 48 destroyers, 9 carriers, and approximately 700 Variable Fighters.  Those early fleets initially used captured Zentradi ships, supplemented with Earth-manufactured space warships like the ARMD-class and Oberth-class, with later fleets using increasing amounts of Earth-manufactured warships from the L5 Manufacturing Station and later the captured factory satellites.

By the time of Macross 7, the exemplar emigrant fleet was 194* ships strong... with the 3rd Generation City-class and its attendant Battle-class supercarrier supported by a fleet of 120 stealth frigates, 45 advanced ARMDs, 20 escort battle carriers, and at least six auxiliary ships providing various kinds of support and supplemental living space.

Fleets continued to grow as time went on, with the 4th and 5th Generation emigrant ships supported by ever-increasing escort fleets of hundreds of warships.  Macross Valiant - AKA Macross 16 - was composed of approximately 900 ships according to Master File.

 

13 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So to get the gist, even if numerically a New Macross battle ship is already constructed it could take a pretty decent long time for it to get itself an entire fleet to travel with? Sorry if I'm just repeating the same stuff again.

Odds are those things are happening concurrently, since even with factory satellite support it still takes years to complete the construction of such a large vessel... never mind the post-construction outfitting of the living areas and so on.  The latter would be especially important for the 5th Generation Island Cluster-class, which uses an engineered artificial environment (bioplant) to maintain its living conditions and provide better long-term sustainability and resource-efficiency than previous-generation ships.  Construction of such complex interdependent artificial ecosystems probably takes a fair bit of doing.

 

13 hours ago, TG Remix said:

With the discussion of emigrant fleet traveling, I did think about the purpose of the SDFN class. They were built to investigate and secure routes for long distance colonization ships (Whether that's for the Megaroad's or New Macross'.) So I'm assuming if emigrant fleets weren't travelling to the core of the galaxy, the SDFN's (or research fleets anywhere) are for more potential planets outside? Maybe that would've helped the Macross 5 being jumped by Protodevlin, Or am I just overthinking a reason for Kawamori to have another SDF Macross in his story, lol.

The mass-production Macross-class (SDFN) were originally used to scout ahead of the early-generation emigrant fleets... and their fate afterward seems to have varied a bit.  Their role was eventually taken over by the Battle-class, and larger escort fleets of stealthier warships.  After that, it seems some were either retired (e.g. SDFN-08 General Vrlitwhai Kridanik) or seconded to long-term deep space research projects (e.g. SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global).  There is a popular theory that SDFN-01 General Takashi Hayase was the ship that stood in for the SDF-1 Macross in the filming of the in-universe movie Do You Remember Love? (and possibly the Master File-alluded prequel Booby Trap).  It seems like the more remote and isolated the world their emigrant fleet found was, the less likely the New UN Government was to ask for the ship back.  (Uroboros and Pipure are both way out in the galactic boonies, and Uroboros is periodically isolated from the rest of the galaxy by intense fold fault activity.)

 

13 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So I'm perfect for the forum 🤪

One of us! One of us! One of us!

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

In the case of planets Pripure and Ouroboros the SDFN class settled as part of their capitals. 

We don't know that's actually the case for Pipure... only for Uroboros and the SDFN-08 General Vrlitwhai Kridanik, which became Vrlitwhai City.

Pipure's government sold off their Macross-class ship to a private corporation... we don't know its actual provenance or its name, only that it was dubbed the Macross Extra by its new owners.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Okay...I walked into this one, didn't I? lol

Walked right into it and promptly got trapped in the revolving door.  

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of Macross 13, I'm aware the Battle class wasn't assigned to a colony fleet, but theoretically would there have been a 43rd Super Long Distance Emigrant Fleet that's called the Macross 13?

Probably... though Macross-13 was also a code for a ship that did not officially exist... as in "that's on a need to know basis, and you don't" in-universe.

 

2 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Yeah, even we got more information between 7 and Frontier. There's the whole thing about Mass Cloning (which probably is the explanation for why there's so many humans after SDFM) and the fallout of that program with hereditary issues (iirc the abandoned city in Plus was where they lived) and it's so funny from Isamu's military record, something as important sounding as the UN Revolution War is just background fluff for our crazy pilot to be apart of.

The palpable irony is that, for the most part, those events are indicated to be pretty darn uneventful even in-universe.

There were a bunch of itty-bitty "wars" on emigrant planets over various minor matters that were the eventual seeds of the Second Unification War, and some terrorist movements popping up here and there, but for the most part is was a period of recovery without any major threats or events that would be cause for serious alarm.

 

 

* The reason for the notation is that certain works like Macross 7 Trash depict additional ships not covered in the animation.  The aforementioned manga depicts at least one ARMD-class space carrier (TV series type, modified) and an additional auxiliary ship that functions as a dedicated spacegoing cemetery.

[Rhubarbarian]

42 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 Those early fleets initially used captured Zentradi ships, supplemented with Earth-manufactured space warships like the ARMD-class and Oberth-class...

I've been reading these threads for years now and my first reaction to mentions of the Oberth class is still "wait, like the Grissom?"

[pengbuzz]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:03 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Walked right into it and promptly got trapped in the revolving door.

*goes for a spin...repeatedly...*

[TehPW]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:47 PM, Rhubarbarian said:

I've been reading these threads for years now and my first reaction to mentions of the Oberth class is still "wait, like the Grissom?"

Honestly the Macrossian Oberth-class ... is arguably better armed than the TMP era Oberth-class. Grissom's only advantage is speed.

[Seto Kaiba]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:47 PM, Rhubarbarian said:

I've been reading these threads for years now and my first reaction to mentions of the Oberth class is still "wait, like the Grissom?"

Given that Macross's Oberth-class is more or less a box full of ballistic missiles, you could easily argue it's way more consistent with Oberth's actual contributions to rocketry than Star Trek's.

[TG Remix]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:03 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

There were a bunch of itty-bitty "wars" on emigrant planets over various minor matters that were the eventual seeds of the Second Unification War, and some terrorist movements popping up here and there, but for the most part is was a period of recovery without any major threats or events that would be cause for serious alarm.

 

I figured there probably wouldn't be as many big incidents as say the Zentradi or even something like the Sharon Apple Incident. Though that one was surprisingly more self contained compared to the rest of the world ending catastrophes throughout the franchise. Still, with Timoshee's goal fueled by the suffering of colonies and the push for a more decentralized government, it'd be nice to see or at the very least hear more about the ins and outs of the many planets and their local troubles then just Eden. 

 

Speaking of self contained, is there any word if the VF-5000G was a simply upgraded Star Mirage to keep them in service, a variant made to be sold to others, specifically for the Zolans, or all the above?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I figured there probably wouldn't be as many big incidents as say the Zentradi or even something like the Sharon Apple Incident. Though that one was surprisingly more self contained compared to the rest of the world ending catastrophes throughout the franchise. Still, with Timoshee's goal fueled by the suffering of colonies and the push for a more decentralized government, it'd be nice to see or at the very least hear more about the ins and outs of the many planets and their local troubles then just Eden. 

Most of them probably weren't all that remarkable... there are a few standouts like Divide - basically Space North Ireland - but it'd be difficult to throw into a series since the enemy was the New UN Forces who'd been (knowingly or otherwise) used by the conspirators to suppress movements pushing for greater emigrant autonomy.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of self contained, is there any word if the VF-5000G was a simply upgraded Star Mirage to keep them in service, a variant made to be sold to others, specifically for the Zolans, or all the above?

It's unclear.  The first model of VF specifically identified in its writeup as intended for export was the VF-19P also used by the Zola Patrol, so it's not an unreasonable assumption that the VF-5000G may have been an export "monkey model" variant too.  It's not outright identified as such, but the way it's described in Macross Chronicle suggests the Patrol's VF-5000Gs are modified and not original spec. since they're referred to specifically as the G-model Patrol Corps specification.

Of course, that would also mark the earliest case of a dedicated export model, since the first major case of the New UN Gov't cracking down on arms exports was caused by the Sharon Apple incident in 2040 and involved 4th Generation VFs only.  That event having been a part of what contributed to the VF-19 losing its position as next main fighter to the less over-the-top and far more cost-effective VF-171.

[pengbuzz]

9 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Of course, that would also mark the earliest case of a dedicated export model, since the first major case of the New UN Gov't cracking down on arms exports was caused by the Sharon Apple incident in 2040 and involved 4th Generation VFs only.  That event having been a part of what contributed to the VF-19 losing its position as next main fighter to the less over-the-top and far more cost-effective VF-171.

I often wonder if one cause for consternation with the emigrant fleets and the colonies was getting "monkey models" while UN central kept the best stuff? I know astute techs and those with deep pockets could mod the craft into near- peak performance, but I imagine that to constantly keep getting "hemmed-down" (akin to what the Vulcans did to Earth in Star Trek: Enterprise) probably got on at least some folks' nerves. And yeah: I also get why Earth did that: to keep an edge and limit what any fleet or colony could do if they revolted.

Edited April 28, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

I often wonder if one cause for consternation with the emigrant fleets and the colonies was getting "monkey models" while UN central kept the best stuff?

Possibly, but I doubt it.

One of the main challenges the emigrant governments faced was cost-performance in their military hardware.  A lot of the 2nd Generation Valkyries were developed to maximize their cost-performance for emigrant governments that had limited resources.  The VF-5000 was a standout in that regard and stuck around in the Zola Patrol's arsenal to the late 2040s as a result.  With so many major obstacles to achieving widespread adoption of the VF-19 even without considering the arms export restrictions that were imposed in the wake of the Sharon Apple incident like the VF-19 and VF-22's excessive manufacturing and operation costs or the training issues and accidents caused by their excessively high performance would have made it difficult or impossible for emigrant governments to adopt even without the export restriction.

(If anything, the sheer unviability of the VF-19 and VF-22 ought to have provoked a "How much of our tax money did you waste on this unflyable garbage?" reaction... or a "Wow, dodged a bullet there" reaction in those who were on the fence about upgrading.  It says a lot that Shinsei was still trying to make the VF-19 flyable 18 years later.)

 

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

I know astute techs and those with deep pockets could mod the craft into near- peak performance, but I imagine that to constantly keep getting "hemmed-down" (akin to what the Vulcans did to Earth in Star Trek: Enterprise) probably got on at least some folks' nerves.

Some of it, like what we heard about on the VF-19EF Caliburn, seems to have been more in the type of "we're omitting this, fill in the gaps as best you can" while others were just legally-mandated restrictions on certain systems.

Exactly how severe the restrictions were is unclear, since we've never seen the specs for an Earth/central New UN Forces variant.

[TG Remix]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Most of them probably weren't all that remarkable... there are a few standouts like Divide - basically Space North Ireland - but it'd be difficult to throw into a series since the enemy was the New UN Forces who'd been (knowingly or otherwise) used by the conspirators to suppress movements pushing for greater emigrant autonomy.

 

Right, makes me wonder how long has Latence was in operation until their fallout. Though I heard of some autonomous governments popping up before decentralization. iirc there was one established on Planet Vulcan in 2040, so I'm wondering how come others essentially could leave from UN rule prior?

 

20 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Exactly how severe the restrictions were is unclear, since we've never seen the specs for an Earth/central New UN Forces variant.

Now that you said it, yeah it is weird how we never saw a "vanilla" VF-19E (Unless you count Master File.) Seemed to me it was more closely related to the VF-19F then the YF-19, specifically with the Caliburn's lower legs/engine nozzles. I don't think we've seen a vanilla YF/VF-24 either, if they were even made.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Right, makes me wonder how long has Latence was in operation until their fallout. Though I heard of some autonomous governments popping up before decentralization. iirc there was one established on Planet Vulcan in 2040, so I'm wondering how come others essentially could leave from UN rule prior?

Well, there's autonomous and there's "autonomous"... if they're still a New UN Government member they're not actually truly autonomous since they're subject to the supranational government.

 

11 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Now that you said it, yeah it is weird how we never saw a "vanilla" VF-19E (Unless you count Master File.) Seemed to me it was more closely related to the VF-19F then the YF-19, specifically with the Caliburn's lower legs/engine nozzles.

Eh... we have, and we haven't.  It's more an issue of the VF-19E being inconsistently presented.

For instance, Aisha Blanchett's VF-19 is indicated to be a VF-19E in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy and follows the design of the VF-19 1st Mass Production type.  The same design family as the YF-19, VF-19A, VF-19C, and the Master File-exclusive VF-19B and VF-19D.

Master File incorrectly lists the VF-19E as the first 2nd Mass Production type styled after Basara's VF-19 Custom.  Basara's VF-19 Custom was, in the official setting, derived from a trial production VF-19F.

Then, of course, there's the Frontier fleet's local take on the VF-19E designated VF-19EF Caliburn, which is a 2nd Mass Production type like the VF-19F/S but has a wing that sort of cuts a dash between the 1st and 2nd type and canards.  That, of course, muddies the water because we don't know how much of that craft corresponds to the original design and how much is the Frontier fleet arsenal and local Shinsei branch's customizations.  Somewhere along the way, that ended up being selectively downgraded to the VF-19EF/A which Isamu flies in Macross Frontier's 2nd movie, which is a VF-19EF retrofitted to return it to something close to YF-19-2 specs.

So one of the unresolved questions of the VF-19 series is whether the VF-19E was a 1st Mass Production type or 2nd Mass Production type.  Macross Chronicle would seem to lean in the former direction, with the F type being presented as the base model for the 2nd Mass Production type.

 

11 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I don't think we've seen a vanilla YF/VF-24 either, if they were even made.

So, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

We've never seen a VF-24, but we know it exists because the Earth/central New UN Forces adopted the YF-24 Evolution as their next main fighter in 2057.

The "Evolution" isn't a nickname for the YF-24, it's actually a separate model of YF-24.  The original YF-24 was a failed prototype with the early/initial prototype ISC that wasn't up to the military's requirements and was ultimately cancelled.  The YF-24 Evolution was Shinsei Industry's independent revival of the YF-24 design with more mature technologies which was successfully demonstrated to the military.  We've only ever seen that one in line art form in Macross Frontier and Master File.  Presumably the VF-24 looks just like it, or at least very similar.  The original YF-24, informally nicknamed "Camel", has never been seen in art or anywhere else.

[darkranger12]

Hmm.  Now I'm wondering if the VF-24 would use the VF-25 FAST PACKS or something similiar to them. 

[TG Remix]

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, there's autonomous and there's "autonomous"... if they're still a New UN Government member they're not actually truly autonomous since they're subject to the supranational government.

So like how the Varauta government established itself under a name and follows it own rules (VF-14 Vampire's as a main fighter instead of the Thunderbolt, and their different uniforms and suits compared to the 37th Long Distance fleet if that's an indicator) but still follow UN regulations? Actually now that I say it, is it said what their ships from 7 are based off of any other pre-existing designs from the UN like their Variable fighters, or they're brand new designs?

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

So one of the unresolved questions of the VF-19 series is whether the VF-19E was a 1st Mass Production type or 2nd Mass Production type.  Macross Chronicle would seem to lean in the former direction, with the F type being presented as the base model for the 2nd Mass Production type.

I understand now. Still it is funny how the Caliburn based it off a second generation type but almost everything else wants us to believe it came from a first gen. Kinda a shame the VF-19F didn't pop off as the next main fighter, Their track record with the Emerald Force already treated them as cannon fodder anyways.😆 I'm not complaining though, the Nightmare Plus fills that hole in my heart, though it's funny to me how that's not the most produced Excalibur but the VF-19C was.

 

12 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The "Evolution" isn't a nickname for the YF-24, it's actually a separate model of YF-24.  The original YF-24 was a failed prototype with the early/initial prototype ISC that wasn't up to the military's requirements and was ultimately cancelled.  The YF-24 Evolution was Shinsei Industry's independent revival of the YF-24 design with more mature technologies which was successfully demonstrated to the military.  We've only ever seen that one in line art form in Macross Frontier and Master File.  Presumably the VF-24 looks just like it, or at least very similar.  The original YF-24, informally nicknamed "Camel", has never been seen in art or anywhere else.

Two of them? That's news to me. Though I assume that exported VF-24 diagrams could be given to any colony, just that almost any variation we see won't look the same as the New UN/"local" VF-24?

[RedWolf]

14 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So like how the Varauta government established itself under a name and follows it own rules (VF-14 Vampire's as a main fighter instead of the Thunderbolt, and their different uniforms and suits compared to the 37th Long Distance fleet if that's an indicator) but still follow UN regulations? Actually now that I say it, is it said what their ships from 7 are based off of any other pre-existing designs from the UN like their Variable fighters, or they're brand new designs?

 

I understand now. Still it is funny how the Caliburn based it off a second generation type but almost everything else wants us to believe it came from a first gen. Kinda a shame the VF-19F didn't pop off as the next main fighter, Their track record with the Emerald Force already treated them as cannon fodder anyways.😆 I'm not complaining though, the Nightmare Plus fills that hole in my heart, though it's funny to me how that's not the most produced Excalibur but the VF-19C was.

 

Two of them? That's news to me. Though I assume that exported VF-24 diagrams could be given to any colony, just that almost any variation we see won't look the same as the New UN/"local" VF-24?

We've seen the YF-24 Evolution design tweeked in  several ways already. Màcross Galaxy has the YF-27 Shaher which is closer to the original silhouette and the MP VF-27 that has four engines. Macross Frontier went with VF-25 and the four engined YF-29. Macross Galaxy stoke the idea of four engines from the proposed YF-29 as the data was leaked to them. Aisha Blanchet made the YF-30 which is close to the YF-24 Evolution silhouette as well. The VF-31 was derived from it.

On screen we have seen all derivatives. The actual VF-24 not  yet.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So like how the Varauta government established itself under a name and follows it own rules (VF-14 Vampire's as a main fighter instead of the Thunderbolt, and their different uniforms and suits compared to the 37th Long Distance fleet if that's an indicator) but still follow UN regulations? Actually now that I say it, is it said what their ships from 7 are based off of any other pre-existing designs from the UN like their Variable fighters, or they're brand new designs?

Emigrant governments seem to adopt the name of whatever they've decided to call their planet once they settle there rather than continuing to refer to themselves by their fleet name or number.

They also seem to have had a reasonably free hand to decide how to arm their local New UN Forces defense forces, even before the Second Unification War greatly expanded the freedom emigrant governments had to make their own policy decisions.  While the VF-11 was the winning design for Project Nova, the VF-14 Vampire enjoyed considerable sales among the emigrant fleets as a space-optimized 3rd Generation VF with high frame versatility and lots of room for onboard customization.  Some emigrant fleets went extremely cost-conscious and adopted all-Ghost air forces instead.  The Varauta government seems to have been EXTREMELY focused on the idea of repelling a Zentradi attack, with their development of their own warship types that were more focused on the idea of directly confronting a branch fleet in open combat.  The Protodeviln simply appropriated and then upgraded the designs they were already using when they took over the system.  (Yes, even Gepernich's flagship, which was basically a MASSIVE floating missile battery and gun platform intended to unleash seven shades of thermonuclear hell on any Zentradi fleet unlucky enough to enter the system.)

 

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I understand now. Still it is funny how the Caliburn based it off a second generation type but almost everything else wants us to believe it came from a first gen. Kinda a shame the VF-19F didn't pop off as the next main fighter, Their track record with the Emerald Force already treated them as cannon fodder anyways.😆 I'm not complaining though, the Nightmare Plus fills that hole in my heart, though it's funny to me how that's not the most produced Excalibur but the VF-19C was.

It's definitely confusing, that's for sure.  Though the Caliburn itself is even worse in that it's a 4.5 Gen VF that incorporates certain technologies developed for the YF-25 Prophecy on a trial basis rather than being a mostly-stock 4th Gen VF like the regular VF-19.

The VF-19 suffered from its own success.  Its excessive maneuverability and over-the-top performance made the g-load on the pilot too excessive for most pilots to handle, the peaky handling made loss of control accidents common, and the cost was outrageous.  (Though its main sin in production terms was looking too much like a hero mecha.)

 

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Two of them? That's news to me. Though I assume that exported VF-24 diagrams could be given to any colony, just that almost any variation we see won't look the same as the New UN/"local" VF-24?

The New UN Government and Earth New UN Forces shared the YF-24 Evolution spec, with redactions and omissions as appropriate to arms export restrictions and Earth's various proprietary developments, to the emigrant governments.  If an emigrant fleet decided to build their own VF-24 instead of developing a new design from it, I'd expect it to look very close to the base design with most of the changes "under the hood".  There is a provision in the designation system for local specification variations below the variant level.

[sketchley]

20 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So like how the Varauta government established itself under a name and follows it own rules (VF-14 Vampire's as a main fighter instead of the Thunderbolt, and their different uniforms and suits compared to the 37th Long Distance fleet if that's an indicator) but still follow UN regulations? Actually now that I say it, is it said what their ships from 7 are based off of any other pre-existing designs from the UN like their Variable fighters, or they're brand new designs?

Regarding the VF-14, Macross Chronicle sheds some light on that: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/OTHERun04AVF-14Vampire.php

* main fighter generally means the main fighter of the Unified Forces, not the 'main' aircraft used by a local government.

 

As for the uniforms, the Variable Fighter pilots in the M7 fleet use something different from what the central Unified Forces uses.  Staff Officer Gunther is from the Unified Forces Headquarters—presumably the unit that he was attached to when he (and they) disturbed the Protodevilun during their investigation of the forth planet in the Varota system.

So that may just be down to different branches/sections of the Unified Forces, and/or that each Emigrant Fleet is allowed to choose which uniform for the personnel under its jurisdiction.

* the real reason is ease of differentiation in the viewer.  If both the protagonists and antagonists are all wearing the same uniforms and flying the same Valkyries, it would confusing to the point of baffling.  Kawamori-san (and Studio Nue in general) are really big on having visually distinct designs for rival forces (even down to differing silhouettes), and this is a good example of that.  The more extreme example is Kawamori-san replacing the VF-19 with the VF-171 in Macross Frontier because the VF-19 looked too similar to the VF-25!

 

Anyhow, one thing to keep in mind is that the Varohta Forces that we saw in M7 have equipment that the Protodevilun modified and 'enhanced'.  The shapes of the real things are moderately to greatly different.

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Varauta government seems to have been EXTREMELY focused on the idea of repelling a Zentradi attack, with their development of their own warship types that were more focused on the idea of directly confronting a branch fleet in open combat.  The Protodeviln simply appropriated and then upgraded the designs they were already using when they took over the system.  (Yes, even Gepernich's flagship, which was basically a MASSIVE floating missile battery and gun platform intended to unleash seven shades of thermonuclear hell on any Zentradi fleet unlucky enough to enter the system.)

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Anyhow, one thing to keep in mind is that the Varohta Forces that we saw in M7 have equipment that the Protodevilun modified and 'enhanced'.  The shapes of the real things are moderately to greatly different.

Ironically that made them closer to the Zentradi themselves in terms of tactics, ships sizes, and variable fighters. I respect the hustle, and apparently so did the Protodevlin.😋Wish we also had the pre-converted designs of them, even if there's practically next to no demand of ship designs in the market. Spiritia Dreaming does imply they did use Northamptons as well, and the silhouette of the Standard Battleline Battleship we see did look somewhat similar. (Also held similar amount of variable fighters, Northampton's 37 to Battleline's 30-40.) 

 

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

* the real reason is ease of differentiation in the viewer.  If both the protagonists and antagonists are all wearing the same uniforms and flying the same Valkyries, it would confusing to the point of baffling.  Kawamori-san (and Studio Nue in general) are really big on having visually distinct designs for rival forces (even down to differing silhouettes), and this is a good example of that.  The more extreme example is Kawamori-san replacing the VF-19 with the VF-171 in Macross Frontier because the VF-19 looked too similar to the VF-25!

And also why anything made by General Galaxy/anything that looks remotely Zentradi related is doomed to be used by the antagonists, lol. It's why I was so stuck on wondering if the ships from the Macross 5 was used specifically for that fleet. Speaking of, I know the population was fully comprised of micronized Zentran, but I'm not too sure about the Varauta government people. I'd say their grey toned skin would be a indicator, but that seems to be an affect of being mind controlled.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

nd the MP VF-27 that has four engines.

I thought the VF-27 already was mass produced, or at the very least a "production" version for multiples to exist.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by TG Remix

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Government and Earth New UN Forces shared the YF-24 Evolution spec, with redactions and omissions as appropriate to arms export restrictions and Earth's various proprietary developments, to the emigrant governments.  If an emigrant fleet decided to build their own VF-24 instead of developing a new design from it, I'd expect it to look very close to the base design with most of the changes "under the hood".  There is a provision in the designation system for local specification variations below the variant level.

So like the VF-19C/MG21 from The Ride? Though I think the F in VF-19EF could also mean Frontier as well in hindsight.

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

Regarding the VF-14, Macross Chronicle sheds some light on that: http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/OTHERun04AVF-14Vampire.php

* main fighter generally means the main fighter of the Unified Forces, not the 'main' aircraft used by a local government.

So even if it cruises better in space, it's still finding itself used in not only emigrant fleets but emigrant planets. I'm assuming this is something like fighting in orbit, or customizing them to the point they can be a slight bit better in the atmosphere? (Or completely revamp it into the VA-14) I'd mention their use in M3 in the atmosphere, but I think we established that Max and Miria are kinda monsters in combat and probably could pilot a variable bomber as if it's a fighter.

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Ironically that made them closer to the Zentradi themselves in terms of tactics, ships sizes, and variable fighters. I respect the hustle, and apparently so did the Protodevlin.

"Kill it with gobsmackingly huge amounts of thermonuclear fire" is a surprisingly simple and straightforward strategy... and it's undeniably effective.

 

13 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Spiritia Dreaming does imply they did use Northamptons as well, and the silhouette of the Standard Battleline Battleship we see did look somewhat similar. (Also held similar amount of variable fighters, Northampton's 37 to Battleline's 30-40.) 

That was the special investigation unit, which was from (New) UN Forces staff headquarters.

 

13 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

And also why anything made by General Galaxy/anything that looks remotely Zentradi related is doomed to be used by the antagonists, lol. It's why I was so stuck on wondering if the ships from the Macross 5 was used specifically for that fleet. Speaking of, I know the population was fully comprised of micronized Zentran, but I'm not too sure about the Varauta government people. I'd say their grey toned skin would be a indicator, but that seems to be an affect of being mind controlled.

*gestures broadly in the direction of the VF-9, VF-17, and VF-171*

Not all of 'em... 

The Varauta folks were a mix.  Macross R protagonist Chelsea Scarlett is a Zentradi former resident of Varauta, though it's worth noting that not all Zentradi have that same ghastly pallor too... their ability to blend in among standard humans varies pretty widely.

 

13 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I thought the VF-27 already was mass produced, or at the very least a "production" version for multiples to exist.

By the Galaxy fleet only... though the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces don't officially recognize it as a production version because the Galaxy fleet never disclosed its specs to the central government and military.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So like the VF-19C/MG21 from The Ride?

Precisely.  The same style of designation is also used for the VF-25 and its gear, presumably in anticipation of export sales.

 

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though I think the F in VF-19EF could also mean Frontier as well in hindsight.

It does, though it stands out as something of an aberration... if it'd just been a local spec VF-19E it would've been VF-19E/MF25, but it's heavily customized to the extent of being its own variant.

 

4 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

So even if it cruises better in space, it's still finding itself used in not only emigrant fleets but emigrant planets. I'm assuming this is something like fighting in orbit, or customizing them to the point they can be a slight bit better in the atmosphere? (Or completely revamp it into the VA-14) I'd mention their use in M3 in the atmosphere, but I think we established that Max and Miria are kinda monsters in combat and probably could pilot a variable bomber as if it's a fighter.

Most planetary defense is space-based, so its less-than-optimal atmospheric performance would not be a deal-breaker to most.  Cruising range, armament capacity, passive and active stealthiness, and cost-effectiveness made the VF-14 a very tempting prospect for emigrant governments.

[Macross-Plus]

Is there any concept art for DYRL/SDFM (the original)? I'd love to see the characters and ships before they were given the green light to be in the show. 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Macross-Plus said:

Is there any concept art for DYRL/SDFM (the original)? I'd love to see the characters and ships before they were given the green light to be in the show. 

In Macross Perfect Memory.  There is a section The Making of Macross that starts on page 203 and has concept art for many characters and some of the mecha, and some info about the original episode counts for the series in development.

[TG Remix]

 

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That was the special investigation unit, which was from (New) UN Forces staff headquarters.

Right, forgot about that. I would've double checked on the short on YouTube, but Molebeat's been a copyright streak and it unfortunately got to the Macross channel.

 

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

*gestures broadly in the direction of the VF-9, VF-17, and VF-171*

Not all of 'em... 

Touché. I was kinda surprised myself when I saw the VF-17 being used by the protagonist side.

 

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

though it's worth noting that not all Zentradi have that same ghastly pallor too... their ability to blend in among standard humans varies pretty widely.

Right, considering Miria and the three goofballs that infiltrated the SDF without anyone really noticing. Guess the ones that would stand out the most would be ones like Exsedol's and Britai's DYRL? designs. Not even gonna consider any Mobile Fortress Zentran to blend in.

 

16 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Most planetary defense is space-based, so its less-than-optimal atmospheric performance would not be a deal-breaker to most.  Cruising range, armament capacity, passive and active stealthiness, and cost-effectiveness made the VF-14 a very tempting prospect for emigrant governments.

I understand now. And it's not too out of the ordinary to imagine the Thunderbolt and Vampire working side by side either.

[sketchley]

18 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I understand now. And it's not too out of the ordinary to imagine the Thunderbolt and Vampire working side by side either.

In some ways it's like the Macross universe's version of the USAF's F-16 vs YF-17 "competition"—with the F-16 being adopted as-is, and the YF-17 being reworked into the F-18 and being adopted by the USN, etc.—just replace the F-16 with the VF-11, and the YF-17/F-18 with the VF-14.

 

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YF-17

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In Macross Perfect Memory.  There is a section The Making of Macross that starts on page 203 and has concept art for many characters and some of the mecha, and some info about the original episode counts for the series in development.

I've read that, and the original versions for the characters are quite interesting. Hikaru (for example) looks edgier and angrier than what he finally ended up being in the series, while Misa looked more carefree and bubbly compared to her final incarnation.

I still laugh about the SDF-1 and the "breast fighters" though lol. Not to mention the Macross going on a spree and destroying a couple of cities.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I've read that, and the original versions for the characters are quite interesting. Hikaru (for example) looks edgier and angrier than what he finally ended up being in the series, while Misa looked more carefree and bubbly compared to her final incarnation.

I still laugh about the SDF-1 and the "breast fighters" though lol. Not to mention the Macross going on a spree and destroying a couple of cities.

The Gundam and Yamato influences are a lot more overt too... Quamzin in particular basically just looks like Purple Garma.

[pengbuzz]

20 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Gundam and Yamato influences are a lot more overt too... Quamzin in particular basically just looks like Purple Garma.

I noticed that!

[diazou]

Hello, all. Hope you are doing good.

Question:

During the SDFM chapters 27-36 timelapse, did the U.N. Spacy have human-built ships with space fold capability at its disposal or depended entirely on allied Zentradi warships?

 

Thanks a lot in advance

[RedWolf]

I don't think either the ARMD or Oberths were designed to have Fold Drives at the time. the SDF-2 certainly but it is still under construction on the Moon. The SDFN class had recycled Zentradi parts such as weapons.

The point of stealing the Factory Satelites was to increase their industrial capacity. To get the ball rolling for the Mankind Seeding Plan.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by RedWolf