The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[RedWolf]

3 hours ago, aurance said:

So… Macross Galaxy. I can’t make heads or tails out of its design. What are those green pods? Where does Battle Galaxy attach?

What is so weird about Macross Galaxy Mainland is that it is said to have launched ten years before Macross Frontier launched. Macross Frontier aka Macross 25 launched in 2041. Macross Galaxy aka Macross 21 would've launched in 2031. 2031 was when Macross 1 launched. Macross 7 launched in 2037.

My guess it is a competing design to the City and Island class that the ships like Macross 7 and Macross Frontier are. Closer to a Megaroad design in philosophy. 

 

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, RedWolf said:

What is so weird about Macross Galaxy Mainland is that it is said to have launched ten years before Macross Frontier launched. Macross Frontier aka Macross 25 launched in 2041. Macross Galaxy aka Macross 21 would've launched in 2031. 2031 was when Macross 1 launched. Macross 7 launched in 2037.

My guess it is a competing design to the City and Island class that the ships like Macross 7 and Macross Frontier are. Closer to a Megaroad design in philosophy. 

 

Hmm... it also makes me wonder if their fleet number was assigned/ changed retroactively (after launch)? That would be one heck of a skip (20 fleet numbers?).

That reminds me:

On 12/31/2021 at 9:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That, of course, being why we're all very confused by the Battle Astraea... it looks for all the world to be a repaired, recommissioned Battle Galaxy, which shouldn't be possible given the ship was destroyed in both versions of Macross Frontier.

The Battle Galaxy was destroyed, yet the Battle Astraea looks to be a repaired recommissioned Battle Galaxy?

And the Macross 21 (Galaxy) launched before the 7, according to the math?

I'm not exactly sure how these two things are connected (or even if they are), but it really makes me wonder about General Galaxy's doings behind the scenes...

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, RedWolf said:

What is so weird about Macross Galaxy Mainland is that it is said to have launched ten years before Macross Frontier launched. Macross Frontier aka Macross 25 launched in 2041. Macross Galaxy aka Macross 21 would've launched in 2031. 2031 was when Macross 1 launched. Macross 7 launched in 2037.

My guess it is a competing design to the City and Island class that the ships like Macross 7 and Macross Frontier are. Closer to a Megaroad design in philosophy. 

To be honest, I feel like that early nugget of lore has long since been tossed since it's not mentioned in any other resource besides the Official Fan Book.

It doesn't quite make sense for Macross Galaxy to be nearly ten years older than the Macross Frontier when the launch rate for these fleets is supposedly 1-2 per year and there's the whole matter of it explicitly being a generation newer than the City-class that was the standard in the 2030s.  The City-class were 3rd Generation emigrant ships.  Macross Galaxy is a 4th Generation emigrant ship, an intermediate generation between the City-class and larger Island Cluster-class.  Logically, there should only be at most 4 years between having Macross Galaxy launch and Macross Frontier's own departure.

WRT being "closer to a Megaroad design in philosophy"... so is most of the accommodation in the Macross Frontier fleet.  Unlike the City-class, the Island Cluster-class has most of its population living in the "underground" sublevels while the area of open "sky" on top is essentially a massive public recreation area that borders on being a pre-war Earth theme park (no, really, it's said this is done for tourism reasons) that is frequently remodeled to keep it appealing and is also where the fleet's wealthiest citizens and those directly involved in its theme park-y upkeep and attractions live.  (We see those sublevels in the first movie, when Ranka performs down there to promote transformable VF toys.)

 

14 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Hmm... it also makes me wonder if their fleet number was assigned/ changed retroactively (after launch)? That would be one heck of a skip (20 fleet numbers?).

Nah, we know there are later fleet numbers than 7... Macross 9 is the setting of a radio play, Macross 11 is mentioned in Dynamite 7 and seen in Frontier, etc. etc.  One of the new Macross Quarter-class ships in the 2nd movie shows up from Macross 17, and another is supposedly from Macross 23.

It's a problematic bit of lore that was mentioned once and never again, meaning they probably realized they goofed.

[RaisingCane]

Given the known industrial capacity of the Protoculture, would it be outside the realm of possibility that they were also able to construct ecumenpolises or Dyson spheres?

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Given the known industrial capacity of the Protoculture, would it be outside the realm of possibility that they were also able to construct ecumenpolises or Dyson spheres?

Perhaps if their civilization had lasted a bit longer before its collapse.

They likely had the means with their massive industrial base of autonomous mining and factory operations.  They probably never had a reason to make the attempt, though.  They had only been spacefaring for around 500 years when their civilization was wiped out by the Supervision Army.  The first 300 years of that was using sublight generation ships for interstellar travel.  The remaining 200 years was done with fold-capable emigrant ships.  It's doubtful their population or utilization of the inhabitable planets available to them had ever reachd the level of an ecumenopolis (planet-city), never mind needing to make something like a dyson sphere, before their own creations destroyed them leaving a handful of survivors on the edges of the galaxy to slowly go extinct.

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Given the known industrial capacity of the Protoculture, would it be outside the realm of possibility that they were also able to construct ecumenpolises or Dyson spheres?

We don't know. We know they have millions of Factory Satellites ranging typically from 5km to 500km. Some produce soldiers and their gear, some produce battleships, some produce Mobile Fortresses. There is on rumored Mother Factory Satellite that makes Factory Satellites. Meanwhile the Protodevlin Heritage Factory Satellite violates the conservation of mass and energy as it can construct weapons without raw materials mined by drones.

We also know Protoculture ruins can reach way down to a planet's core. Protoculture can also hide structures in Subspace.

What is so surprising is that from their initial colonization of Space to when everything went to the hand basket because of their civil  war and the emergence of the Protodevlin they did all that in 475 years. You'd expect them to be old but no they are actually a young space faring civilization. And as a species they were almost annihilated 24,775 years later due to the Zentradi and Supervision Army duking it out. The Protoculture never got back control of them. We know at least with the song Do You Remember Love which is a song of the Star Singer as Mikumo sang it in the original Protoculture language is meant to trigger Zentradi to lose the will to fight as per DYRL. In turn the Star Singer had a trigger Rudanjal Rom Mayan that puts her under control.

The Protoculture Ruin system is a thing but it was not implemented. Though the Protoculture has been known to build stuff and stop themselves from using them like with Fold Evil. They also left a girl to keep the system that seals Fold Evil intact, Mina Forte. Brainwashing and messing with time was probably a step too far.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by RedWolf

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

We don't know. We know they have millions of Factory Satellites ranging typically from 5km to 500km. Some produce soldiers and their gear, some produce battleships, some produce Mobile Fortresses. There is on rumored Mother Factory Satellite that makes Factory Satellites. Meanwhile the Protodevlin Heritage Factory Satellite violates the conservation of mass and energy as it can construct weapons without raw materials mined by drones.

We also know Protoculture ruins can reach way down to a planet's core. Protoculture can also hide structures in Subspace.

What is so surprising is that from their initial colonization of Space to when everything went to the hand basket because of their civil  war and the emergence of the Protodevlin they did all that in 475 years. You'd expect them to be old but no they are actually a young space faring civilization. And as a species they were almost annihilated 24,775 years later due to the Zentradi and Supervision Army duking it out. The Protoculture never got back control of them. We know at least with the song Do You Remember Love which is a song of the Star Singer as Mikumo sang it in the original Protoculture language is meant to trigger Zentradi to lose the will to fight as per DYRL. In turn the Star Singer had a trigger Rudanjal Rom Mayan that puts her under control.

The Protoculture Ruin system is a thing but it was not implemented. Though the Protoculture has been known to build stuff and stop themselves from using them like with Fold Evil. They also left a girl to keep the system that seals Fold Evil intact, Mina Forte. Brainwashing and messing with time was probably a step too far.

 

Of all the things the Protoculure developed, apparently common sense wasn't amongst them....

[kiriiin]

I've got a few questions regarding SDFM and DYRL. This is my first venture down the Macross rabbit hole and in MW. The amount of discussion (20+years) horrifies me lol but i'd appreciate it if y'all can link some relevant threads and/or material so that i don't take too much of your time. Now for the questions: 

• I'm aware SDFM and DYRL lack continuity with each other, however, which established lore/history do the succeeding Macross installments follow? or do they follow both? since i've read that all of them are pretty self contained   
• In DYRL, i've noticed there isn't any mention of the Supervision Army. Are they out of the picture in DYRL's lore? If that's the case then where did SDF-1 come from? The only info about it was the text at the start of the movie implying(?) humans made it.
• In DYRL, Max chased Milia inside of the Meltradi ship but then they fold, the next appearance was at the final battle already with both fighting alongside each other. The hell happened there? Did Max's genius succesfully woo a whole fleet of giantesses into fighting with him? 
• How come the city inside SDF-1 always gets rebulit? I've lost count how many times it was destroyed and rebulit in SDFM lol. I assume supplies aren't infinite since it was shown they resupplied at the Mars base and at Earth
• I'm going to possibly ruffle a few feathers here with this but why is there so much, ehem, cockblocking in SDFM? Especially by Kaifun. How come they didn't kill him off instead of Kakizaki or Fokker?
• Lastly, what should i go for next? Delta got me into the franchise so that's done. Macross 7 continues Max & Milia's story so that's got me interested but rock ain't my thing. F has slick valkyries and is more around my generation (SEED & 00). But i'd like to hear y'all thoughts

Edited January 6, 2022 by kiriiin
typo

[Seto Kaiba]

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

I've got a few questions regarding SDFM and DYRL. This is my first venture down the Macross rabbit hole and in MW. The amount of discussion (20+years) horrifies me lol but i'd appreciate it if y'all can link some relevant threads and/or material so that i don't take too much of your time. Now for the questions: 

• I'm aware SDFM and DYRL lack continuity with each other, however, which established lore/history do the succeeding Macross installments follow? or do they follow both? since i've read that all of them are pretty self contained   

For basic continuity and setting purposes, every subsequent Macross title except Macross II: Lovers Again treats the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series as the "truer" of the two takes on the First Space War.  Macross II: Lovers Again treats the DYRL? movie as the "truer" of the two.  Neither is completely in one camp though.

Aesthetically, the more polished DYRL? designs mostly replaced the TV ones in all the sequels.  Sometimes justified in-universe (e.g. the movie VF-1 being a later production block that coexisted with the TV version), sometimes not.  The creators just seem to like the DYRL? designs more.

 

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

• In DYRL, i've noticed there isn't any mention of the Supervision Army. Are they out of the picture in DYRL's lore? If that's the case then where did SDF-1 come from? The only info about it was the text at the start of the movie implying(?) humans made it.

In DYRL?, the role of the Zentradi's ancient enemy was taken by the Meltrandi (female Zentradi).

That version of the story presents the civil war that destroyed the Protoculture's interstellar civilization as being a result of society becoming divided along gender lines after their development of cloning technology removed the need for the opposite sex in reproduction.  The male faction created the Zentradi, and the female faction created the Meltrandi, and when the fighting started it consumed the Protoculture's entire civilization.

 

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

• In DYRL, Max chased Milia inside of the Meltradi ship but then they fold, the next appearance was at the final battle already with both fighting alongside each other. The hell happened there? Did Max's genius succesfully woo a whole fleet of giantesses into fighting with him? 

What can we say, he is voiced by Show Hayami... what lady could resist that majestic baritone?

(As in the TV series, he and Milia were so impressed with each other as the top aces of their respective factions that they hit it off VERY quickly.)

 

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

• How come the city inside SDF-1 always gets rebulit? I've lost count how many times it was destroyed and rebulit in SDFM lol. I assume supplies aren't infinite since it was shown they resupplied at the Mars base and at Earth

The Macross had an onboard factory that could recycle material to a certain extent.  It was intended for producing repair and replacement parts for the ship and its complement of fighters while away from port, but it could be turned to other purposes too.

The precious illusion of normalcy provided by the Macross's engineering crew maintaining the city and even providing features like an artificial sky were a major factor in keeping the ship's civilian population calm and distracted during the long flight back to Earth.  They outnumbered the ship's crew almost three to one, so if they got well and truly p*ssed, the ensuing riotous mob would be extraordinarily difficult to contain safely.  (Plus the crew probably felt a little bad about having accidentally involved civilians in their fight when South Ataria island was accidentally transported into deep space by the sabotaged space fold system.)

(In DYRL?, this was less of an issue as the city was there intentionally due to the ship having been outfitted for long-duration space exploration and colonization.)

 

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

• I'm going to possibly ruffle a few feathers here with this but why is there so much, ehem, cockblocking in SDFM? Especially by Kaifun. How come they didn't kill him off instead of Kakizaki or Fokker?

Macross is a love story, first and foremost.

It'd be a pretty short love story if nobody was ever indecisive or uncertain about their feelings, or if nobody ever had things get in the way of their figuring things out.  It's drama!

Kaifun was there partly to be a rival for Misa's affections, owing to his resemblance to her long-dead beau Riber Fruhling, and partly to provide an opposing viewpoint for all the soldiers in the main cast as someone fundamentally opposed to violence.  Killing him off would've defeated the point of him.

 

12 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

• Lastly, what should i go for next? Delta got me into the franchise so that's done. Macross 7 continues Max & Milia's story so that's got me interested but rock ain't my thing. F has slick valkyries and is more around my generation (SEED & 00). But i'd like to hear y'all thoughts

It's usually recommended to go in production order... since that gives you the organic building-up of the concepts underpinning the series.  Especially when it comes to all of the mythos surrounding the Protoculture and the occasional bouts of one title setting up the next (e.g. Zero setting up Frontier).

Frontier is often hailed as the best of the sequels, though.

[Master Dex]

44 minutes ago, kiriiin said:

I've got a few questions regarding SDFM and DYRL. This is my first venture down the Macross rabbit hole and in MW. The amount of discussion (20+years) horrifies me lol but i'd appreciate it if y'all can link some relevant threads and/or material so that i don't take too much of your time. Now for the questions: 

• I'm aware SDFM and DYRL lack continuity with each other, however, which established lore/history do the succeeding Macross installments follow? or do they follow both? since i've read that all of them are pretty self contained   
• In DYRL, i've noticed there isn't any mention of the Supervision Army. Are they out of the picture in DYRL's lore? If that's the case then where did SDF-1 come from? The only info about it was the text at the start of the movie implying(?) humans made it.
• In DYRL, Max chased Milia inside of the Meltradi ship but then they fold, the next appearance was at the final battle already with both fighting alongside each other. The hell happened there? Did Max's genius succesfully woo a whole fleet of giantesses into fighting with him? 
• How come the city inside SDF-1 always gets rebulit? I've lost count how many times it was destroyed and rebulit in SDFM lol. I assume supplies aren't infinite since it was shown they resupplied at the Mars base and at Earth
• I'm going to possibly ruffle a few feathers here with this but why is there so much, ehem, cockblocking in SDFM? Especially by Kaifun. How come they didn't kill him off instead of Kakizaki or Fokker?
• Lastly, what should i go for next? Delta got me into the franchise so that's done. Macross 7 continues Max & Milia's story so that's got me interested but rock ain't my thing. F has slick valkyries and is more around my generation (SEED & 00). But i'd like to hear y'all thoughts

 

EDIT: Seto beat me by a hair again! lol.. I thought I was gonna win this time too, heh.

In order:

• The answer is both, the canon is broad and Kawamori doesn't tend to worry about it. Big West does and in general the TV version of events is canon but a lot of the visuals and some events in DYRL (like the actual song DYRL) did happen. Often this is explained by DYRL being an in universe movie made c. 2030 and also that every entry in the franchise is more or less a dramatization of some unseen real history, thus explaining discrepancies.
• In DYRL the Supervision Army is replaced with the Meltrandi, aka female Zentradi. They are basically in a forever man vs woman war as that was easier to explain in a movie than an unseen 2nd power that is never seen in either version. The SDF-1 (or ASS-1 really) was a Meltrandi gunship in the movie.
• Maybe? He won over Milia at least. There is certainly a lot left to the viewer imagination there about how Max survived let alone became a giant that flew with them.
• The city was built before the transformation system was developed to fix the main gun power issue after the fold engine vanished, so it was later rebuilt to work with that. Other times it was more due to damage and attack and yeah realistically they likely wouldn't be able to fix it perfectly every time but it is a show I guess.
• Kakizaki and Roy's deaths were meant to be dramatic punches to the hearts of the viewers, and largely succeed in that. No one likes Kaifun.. his death wouldn't affect us the same way. Sure many may cheer but the show isn't about that. They want to use him for drama by making him a total ass people have to deal with.
• If you've seen Delta (and actually liked it, which congrats I suppose, heh), Frontier is the most similar... but way better. Frontier is also a bit more tonally similar to SDFM, which is why a lot of other people like it, lol. You wouldn't go wrong with that. Macross 7 has a lot of rich lore but it also has a lot of poor pacing, stock footage, the main character is really hard to like, and if you don't like the music as you imply... that's one of 7's biggest draws. It might be tough for you. I'd still recommend trying it one day, but as far as next go, I'd vote Frontier.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Of all the things the Protoculure developed, apparently common sense wasn't amongst them....

Humanity is in NO position to point fingers there...

Edited January 6, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

28 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Humanity is in NO position to point fingers there...

Well, of all the things humanity copied from Protoculture... lol

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, kiriiin said:

In DYRL, Max chased Milia inside of the Meltradi ship but then they fold, the next appearance was at the final battle already with both fighting alongside each other. The hell happened there? Did Max's genius succesfully woo a whole fleet of giantesses into fighting with him? 

There is trope in Macross that if you want to impress a Meltrandi to consider you as a potential mate you will have to defeat them at what they are best at. For example a suitor of Veffidas challenged her in a martial arts duel but he can't be her lover as he is weak. And there is godsdamn Basara that made many giant panties wet but never satisfied as Basara is a one track mind in singjng. Basara turned an entire fleet of Meltrandi into fangirls as not only did he rock them with his big rocket but impressed them with his flying. Similarly is one of Max and Milia's daughters Emilia who Basara won her heart  after a Rock Out in the wilderness. The only reason he backed out of that one is that she is related to Mylene. Meaning she is related to Milia, City 7's eccentric mayor that to marry off her daughter Mylene to Basara thinking she is dying when she had the common cold. Really it is no wonder Mylene is a the only daughter left in the nest we don't know when Milia had this idea her kids should marry. Note Mylene was a teen while Basara was at his early twenties. Just because you married when you were a teen does not mean your daughters will have to follow you Milia. As for Mylene she is pining for Basara while being nice to Gamlin. What ended up was a Bromance between  Basara and Gamlin instead.

 

2 hours ago, kiriiin said:

I'm going to possibly ruffle a few feathers here with this but why is there so much, ehem, cockblocking in SDFM? Especially by Kaifun. How come they didn't kill him off instead of Kakizaki or Fokker?

The OTP was always Hikaru-Misa. They even had a daughter named Miku Ichigyo though that have been retconned. It would be neat though if she turned out to be a certain mysterious character.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RedWolf]

Sorry for the double post , my original post was longer but portions were deleted for some reason. I tried to edit but copying posts for quotations is a pain.

 

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Of all the things the Protoculure developed, apparently common sense wasn't amongst them....

We are talking about the people who thought launching spears just to get blood samples to check if the people inside are hybrids to be trusted with their secrets. These are also the people that left behind Observer Monitors of Death. How can there be Hybrids if the species is wiped off before even leaving their planet?! Goodness the only reason Terrans got this far was sheer dumb luck! No wonder their first reaction in learning there is  Protoculture WMD was blow it up!

 

3 hours ago, kiriiin said:

• I'm aware SDFM and DYRL lack continuity with each other, however, which established lore/history do the succeeding Macross installments follow? or do they follow both? since i've read that all of them are pretty self contained   
• In DYRL, i've noticed there isn't any mention of the Supervision Army. Are they out of the picture in DYRL's lore? If that's the case then where did SDF-1 come from? The only info about it was the text at the start of the movie implying(?) humans made it.

All Macross is Metafiction meaning a fiction within a fiction. Continuity is lose but in broad strokes. Hence SDF Macross and DYRL, Macross Plus OVA and Movie, Macrosss Frontier and Movies, Macross Delta TV and Movie Passionate Walkure. Macross 7 is one single narrative. All subsequent productions follow its events. Macross II is a direct sequel continuity to DYRL. MII has games Macross 2036 and Macross Eternal Love Song that fill that gap. The game Macross M3 is before Macross 7 while the games Macross VF-X and VF-X2 cover events after Macross 7 but before Macross Frontier. Macross VF-X2 is important to the lore as it establishes the future structure of the NUN government and why UN Spacy is now NUNS. Macross 7 also has referenced DYRL as a in-universe movie but it it isnt the movie we saw. Still it is broad strokes like Altira, Max and Milia are married in Meltrandi uniforms and scene with Vritwhai making a treaty with them present in VF-1s.

As said all subsequent productions follow Macross 7. Zentradi and Meltrandi are again one faction but in DYRL aesthetics hence different ship designs. The Supervsion Army instead of just being another army of giants that oppose the Zentradi they are thralls of the Protodevlin, extra-dimensional Space Vampire-Kaiju bioweapons that the Protoculture accidentally unleashed on the universe. The Supervsion Army doesn't show though. In broadstrokes both TV and DYRL happened. The Protoculture city Altira and the song DYRL exist as per Macross 7, Frontier and Delta.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by RedWolf

[pengbuzz]

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Sorry for the double post , my original post was longer but portions were deleted for some reason. I tried to edit but copying posts for quotations is a pain.

 

We are talking about the people who thought launching spears just to get blood samples to check if the people inside are hybrids to be trusted with their secrets. These are also the people that left behind Observer Monitors of Death. How can there be Hybrids if the species is wiped off before even leaving their planet?! Goodness the only reason Terrans got this far was sheer dumb luck! No wonder their first reaction in learning there is  Protoculture WMD was blow it up!

Thanks; yeah, the quotes thing can be a pain. How Seto does it without blowing a RAM card is beyond me! lol

And yeah, humanity did have some bad ideas of their own (hence my reply to Seto about humanity "copying Protoculture"). But overall: after SW1, once we learned something was a bad idea, we generally didn't try it again.

As concerning Protoculture: after considering the overall discussions, I feel their crystallized intellect was quite advanced, but their ability to articulate it  in an appropriate manner left much to be desired. Almost like the stellar version of The Absent-Minded Professor or something.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Thanks; yeah, the quotes thing can be a pain. How Seto does it without blowing a RAM card is beyond me! lol

Oh, that's easy... the rich text editor these forums use will automatically break up quote blocks for you if you poke it just right.

If you quote a whole post, or just a large block of text, and you want to break it up... just go to where you want the break to be and add line breaks (hit ENTER) until you have the part where you want one quote block to end and the part where you want the next one to begin separated by a row with no text.  Then go to that row, and hit ENTER one more time.  The rich text editor'll automatically split it into two quote blocks with identical headers.  

I'm not grabbing each quote block one at a time, I'm grabbing the whole post, breaking it up, and deleting the bits I don't need/want.  Much faster.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

As concerning Protoculture: after considering the overall discussions, I feel their crystallized intellect was quite advanced, but their ability to articulate it  in an appropriate manner left much to be desired. Almost like the stellar version of The Absent-Minded Professor or something.

My impression is more along the lines of the Protoculture being either naively optimistic or so carried away with their own cleverness that they just never conceived that failure was a possibility.

Like the Sparks (mad scientists) in Girl Genius, they seem to have been so caught up in the rush of exerting their brilliance to create that they never stopped to consider how what they just made might go Horribly Wrong, the probability of it doing so, or how quickly it might do so and whether they'll still be in range when it happens.  As a species, they seem to have never invented the Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, that's easy... the rich text editor these forums use will automatically break up quote blocks for you if you poke it just right.

If you quote a whole post, or just a large block of text, and you want to break it up... just go to where you want the break to be and add line breaks (hit ENTER) until you have the part where you want one quote block to end and the part where you want the next one to begin separated by a row with no text.  Then go to that row, and hit ENTER one more time.  The rich text editor'll automatically split it into two quote blocks with identical headers.  

I'm not grabbing each quote block one at a time, I'm grabbing the whole post, breaking it up, and deleting the bits I don't need/want.  Much faster.

 

Neat! Thanks Seto; just tried that now and it worked fine (though I had to paste the ext into the second block, but my pc is wonky like that).

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

My impression is more along the lines of the Protoculture being either naively optimistic or so carried away with their own cleverness that they just never conceived that failure was a possibility.

Like the Sparks (mad scientists) in Girl Genius, they seem to have been so caught up in the rush of exerting their brilliance to create that they never stopped to consider how what they just made might go Horribly Wrong, the probability of it doing so, or how quickly it might do so and whether they'll still be in range when it happens.  As a species, they seem to have never invented the Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis.

You mean like Hammond in Jurassic Park?

Edited January 6, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Bolt]

43 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

You mean like Hammond in Jurassic Park?

All the protoculture needed was Jeff Goldblum..

Edited January 6, 2022 by Bolt

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

You mean like Hammond in Jurassic Park?

More like the version of Hammond in Michael Crichton's original novel... the self-obsessed "visionary" whose unshakeable belief that he is in control, that nobody is in any real danger, and insistence that everything was the fault of someone else rather than admit his vision was flawed ultimately got him and almost everyone else killed.

Spoiler

John Hammond was arguably the main villain of Jurassic Park.  The novel's Hammond was a cold and extremely arrogant man who doesn't really give a damn about science or his grandchildren, and spends almost the entire story squirreled away in the Visitor's Center insisting that everything is under control, nobody is in any real danger, and that it's all just a fluke caused by the flaws of employees who don't understand his brilliant vision.  He blithely ignores the mounting evidence of all the terrible judgement calls and the blatant overconfidence he displayed towards the park's safety features until he falls down a hill, breaks his ankle, and is subsequently eaten alive by a pack of small carnivorous dinosaurs.

Spielberg retooled the entire story, and especially Hammond's character, to change the story's focus from the massive arrogance and irresponsibility of Hammond and Dr. Wu into "well-meaning idiots meddled in God's domain".

 

[pengbuzz]

51 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

More like the version of Hammond in Michael Crichton's original novel... the self-obsessed "visionary" whose unshakeable belief that he is in control, that nobody is in any real danger, and insistence that everything was the fault of someone else rather than admit his vision was flawed ultimately got him and almost everyone else killed.

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John Hammond was arguably the main villain of Jurassic Park.  The novel's Hammond was a cold and extremely arrogant man who doesn't really give a damn about science or his grandchildren, and spends almost the entire story squirreled away in the Visitor's Center insisting that everything is under control, nobody is in any real danger, and that it's all just a fluke caused by the flaws of employees who don't understand his brilliant vision.  He blithely ignores the mounting evidence of all the terrible judgement calls and the blatant overconfidence he displayed towards the park's safety features until he falls down a hill, breaks his ankle, and is subsequently eaten alive by a pack of small carnivorous dinosaurs.

Spielberg retooled the entire story, and especially Hammond's character, to change the story's focus from the massive arrogance and irresponsibility of Hammond and Dr. Wu into "well-meaning idiots meddled in God's domain".

 

Yeah, I should have specified the book and not the movie (read the novel some ages ago).

BTW: they're making another  Jurassic Park film- Jurassic World: Dominion. And bringing much of the original cast back (Sam Neil, Laura Dern, Jeff Goldblum, BD Wong)...

...who are the dinosaurs going to be: the actual reptiles, or the old folks on walkers?

Edited January 6, 2022 by pengbuzz

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

All the protoculture needed was Jeff Goldblum..

I dunno... with as much smug self-righteous arrogance as their leftovers display, the protoculture might've needed LESS Jeff Goldblum.

[Bolt]

I'm not sure they would have heard it any better  from the moussy type with their hat in their hands..

[RedWolf]

The conceit of the Protoculture is that they are proud they are the first Culture or Civilization in the galaxy. Sure the Vajra and Galactic Whales exist and are sapient but they are either a hivemind or a herd. Feeling lonely at the top is probably the reason why they created various humanities in their image. 

 

I do wonder if they went for transhumanism as well. The Windermereans were perhaps an experiment at a telepathic race becoming a hivemind. We know with Protoculture technology Zentradi Mobile Fortresses are controlled by a Zentradi commander that serves as the bio-computer. Meanwhile a Meltrandi Mobile Fortress is controlled by an AI. The Bird Human is a Cyborg-AI. The Ruins of Altira and Rax had AI that served as exposition as to how the Protoculture got to where they are. 

Macross Galaxy went for the whole transhumanist Cyborg AI hivemind path. If these mistakes are being repeated.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

we generally didn't try it again.

There is a Second Unification War.  Though instead of centralization sovereignty  and autonomy won out. 

I do wonder how the Bad Ending of Macross VF-X2 would've played out in subsequent series of Macross as a Parallel Universe. Would Earth have really taken control of fleets and remote planets. Because as we've seen in Macross 7 they are not so good in protecting these fleets interests and safety.

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

I do wonder if they went for transhumanism as well. The Windermereans were perhaps an experiment at a telepathic race becoming a hivemind.

Given their hypothesized status as the last of the Protoculture's creations and their short lifespans, the Windermereans were more likely the Protoculture's last shot at creating a sub-Protoculture species who absolutely could not screw up the way the Protoculture did.  They locked their world behind a fold fault to prevent them from being exposed to the massive mess the Protoculture'd made of the rest of the galaxy, they made empathy mandatory by giving them empathic abilities, and kept their lifespans short to slow their development by as much as possible so they'd have their sh*t together before they made it into space.

 

33 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

We know with Protoculture technology Zentradi Mobile Fortresses are controlled by a Zentradi commander that serves as the bio-computer. Meanwhile a Meltrandi Mobile Fortress is controlled by an AI. The Bird Human is a Cyborg-AI. The Ruins of Altira and Rax had AI that served as exposition as to how the Protoculture got to where they are. 

Well, no... that's not correct.

Like the Meltrandi mobile fortresses, Zentradi mobile fortresses are commanded by an AI.  The only difference is that the Zentradi use a biotechnological living command computer where the Meltrandi use an optical holographic living command computer.  Boddole Zer in the movie is no more a Zentradi than Moruk Laplamiz is a Meltrandi.  They're both very talkative pieces of computer hardware.

 

33 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Macross Galaxy went for the whole transhumanist Cyborg AI hivemind path. If these mistakes are being repeated.

Macross Galaxy went all-in on cybernetics not out of any transhumanist sentiment, but because it made for easy mind control and provided the necessary level of combat ability to actually fight the Vajra on an even footing.  (It's also worth noting the Protoculture toyed with, but did not actually attempt, networking the minds of sentients together on a large scale for fear of causing a Your Head A'splode outcome.

 

33 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

There is a Second Unification War.  Though instead of centralization sovereignty  and autonomy won out. 

It's not really a reprise of the Unification Wars though... the motivations are completely different.  The only thing similar about them is the name.

[pengbuzz]

16 hours ago, RedWolf said:

There is a Second Unification War.  Though instead of centralization sovereignty  and autonomy won out.

Different mistake, not the same one. And even then, I said "generally"; sometimes, folks may need a refresher in "why this is a bad idea 101".

Edited January 7, 2022 by pengbuzz

[RaisingCane]

Is Eden generally considered the primary colony of the NUN or are there other big ones founded around the same time?

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, RaisingCane said:

Is Eden generally considered the primary colony of the NUN or are there other big ones founded around the same time?

It was the first exoplanet humanity discovered that was capable of supporting human life and the first tangible success of New UN Government's space emigration program.  Eden was discovered in 2013, between the launches of Megaroad-01 and Megaroad-02, by one of the short distance emigrant fleets a mere 11.7 light years from Earth.

Because it was the first inhabitable planet found and very close to Earth to boot, it is very likely the most developed emigrant planet in the New UN Government's territory.

[RaisingCane]

Are Eden's defenses supposed to be comparable to Earth's?  I don't recall seeing a big fleet or defense satellites around it in Macross Plus, but I'd think that NUN would want to defend any major colony world that hasn't already been turned into a wasteland by a massive orbital bombardment.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, RaisingCane said:

Are Eden's defenses supposed to be comparable to Earth's?  I don't recall seeing a big fleet or defense satellites around it in Macross Plus, but I'd think that NUN would want to defend any major colony world that hasn't already been turned into a wasteland by a massive orbital bombardment.

Eden's planetary defenses have never been depicted, though are likely less extensive and less advanced than Earth's given that Earth's orbital defense network is supposed to be a bleeding edge system with no equal.  (So much so that the events of Macross Plus led to the New UN Government's decision not to allow widespread use of the VF-19 or VF-22 as a result of the prototypes independently penetrating the network in 2040.)

All we've seen is in Macross Plus: Game Edition, where space testing of the YF-19 and the YF-21 is conducted from an old ARMD-class space carrier.

[Bolt]

Eden seems to be a bit of a crown jewel. I would assume it has formidable orbital and system defenses. Obviously not to the level of Earth. But still..

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Are Eden's defenses supposed to be comparable to Earth's?  I don't recall seeing a big fleet or defense satellites around it in Macross Plus, but I'd think that NUN would want to defend any major colony world that hasn't already been turned into a wasteland by a massive orbital bombardment.

There is Factory Satellite making the Queadluun-Rhea orbiting Eden.

In 2035, the new integrated army entrusted the plan to General Galaxy , and the following year, redesign and improvement were started, and production was started at the "Kimerikora-Rare Arsenal" restored in the satellite orbit of the planet Eden from 2040. Started [7] . It is said that Milia Fallyna Genus, who was active in the First Interstellar War, was also involved in the development

 

Eden is also the main test site for next generation VF around Earth. The YF-19, YF-21 and YF-24 Evolution all flew from there. Isamu was the YF-24 Evolution test pilot. SMS also has branch there that Isamu Dyson joined. It is mentioned in Movie novel Isamu came with the SMS Macross Quarter Crazy Horse. The movie version of the Macross Quarter was designed and built on Eden. 

[sketchley]

8 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Are Eden's defenses supposed to be comparable to Earth's?  I don't recall seeing a big fleet or defense satellites around it in Macross Plus, but I'd think that NUN would want to defend any major colony world that hasn't already been turned into a wasteland by a massive orbital bombardment.

One thing to keep in mind about Earth's orbital defences, is that what we're shown is the orbital defences, as well as the escort fleet of at least one Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet parked in orbit prior to launch.  As Osamu destroyed orbital satellites and avoided the defensive satellites, I think it's safe to assume that most of the ships we saw were parked and uncrewed (more or less).

As another planet was shown to have defensive satellites in the same era*, it's logical to presume that Eden also has its fair share of defensive satellites.

Eden is also indicated as the departure point of at least one Emigrant Fleet, so it's also likely to have a bunch of escort warships parked in orbit from time to time.

 

* Planet Vulcan, if memory serves, in the VF-X2 game (while set a few years later in-universe, it was produced and released around the same time as Macross Plus: Game Edition was).

[RedWolf]

That would be Mission 8 King and I. Destroy Laser Satellites of Planet Vulcan. What is really happening was that Lactence was using Special Forces to attack other planets so they would fall in line for Earth supremacy. In the next mission you are given a choice for either the True Ending or Bad Ending.  The True Ending is the state of affairs we see in Macross Frontier and later Delta where fleets and planets have their sovereignty. And why UN Spacy is now known as  New UN Spacy.

In terms of defenses of other planets mainly ships orbiting the planet like we saw with Al Shahal and Ragna. Varauta went the extra mile with a ship that can kill a Zentradi Adoclass sized fleet by itself. Some planets like Ouroboros and Pripure kept their Macross in standing position. Though in Pripure's case they sold their Macross to Epsilon Foundation. VF-X Havamal on Ouroboros deployed their Ghosts to destroy any unwanted guests. 

 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, RedWolf said:

There is Factory Satellite making the Queadluun-Rhea orbiting Eden.

... which is out at a Lagrange point and not a part of Eden's orbital defense network, so it's not relevant to the question.

While factory satellites do possess some limited armament for defense, their weapons are indicated to only really be for protecting the installation from potentially-damaging collisions with space debris and not for fending off an actual attack.

 

8 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Eden is also the main test site for next generation VF around Earth.

A main test site.  

 

8 hours ago, RedWolf said:

The YF-19, YF-21 and YF-24 Evolution all flew from there.

Point of order, only the final demonstration of the completed YF-24 Evolution prototype is noted to have been carried out at the New Edwards Test Flight Center.

 

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

One thing to keep in mind about Earth's orbital defences, is that what we're shown is the orbital defences, as well as the escort fleet of at least one Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet parked in orbit prior to launch.  As Isamu destroyed orbital satellites and avoided the defensive satellites, I think it's safe to assume that most of the ships we saw were parked and uncrewed (more or less).

Some might've been lightly crewed, though some were almost certainly ships belonging to Earth's own defense fleet.  Given that Sharon Apple had already infiltrated the military's computer network at the time, their lack of response may have also had something to do with Sharon hijacking their systems.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... which is out at a Lagrange point and not a part of Eden's orbital defense network, so it's not relevant to the question.

While factory satellites do possess some limited armament for defense, their weapons are indicated to only really be for protecting the installation from potentially-damaging collisions with space debris and not for fending off an actual attack.

So would assigned ships/ small fleets be protecting these then?

 

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Some might've been lightly crewed, though some were almost certainly ships belonging to Earth's own defense fleet.  Given that Sharon Apple had already infiltrated the military's computer network at the time, their lack of response may have also had something to do with Sharon hijacking their systems.

Not to mention whoever was crewing them.