The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Is the macronization of humans (e.g. Max) canon within the "reality" of Macross or is it regarded as a fictional invention of the in-universe movie?

It is noted to be possible to use a miclone system to turn a human into a giant.

It's also been shown to work on Zolans, with the Zolan conservationist Graham Hoyly having used one to become a giant for the sake of hunting the white Galactic Whale.

The implication being that it'll work on any sub-Protoculture species... though it's also noted that some individuals may experience complications with the procedure due to how it acts upon their genetic structure.  The naturally-born Zentradi Klan Klan is obviously the poster child for this, with a genetic quirk that causes the miclone system to convert her to a child form when she becomes a miclone.  Michael Blanc is noted to be unable to use a miclone system safely because his mixed Human-Zentradi-Zolan heritage causes issues for the system that could severely sicken or even kill him with repeated usage.

[RedWolf]

Well all of Macross is Metafiction. Frankly it could go either way. However Macross 7 depiction of its movie had Max and Milia's wedding in DYRL Meltran uniforms and the treaty with Vritwhai as Miclones. From Miho Miho and Sally's comment the whole Protoculture city appears in their movie. But Berger Stone in his history explannation depicts Altira having once existed and the source of the song Do You Remember Love. Originally sung by Star Singers. Mikumo under Roid's control sung Do You Remember Love in the original Protoculture language in Passionate Walkure. Which suggest genetic memory. Similar to Mayans being genetically manipulated by the Bird Human has genetic memory of the Protoculture or "Protokulcha". Or how Zentradi feels when hearing Do You Remember Love's tune make them feel instinctively nostalgic for culture.

Edited December 28, 2021 by RedWolf

[RaisingCane]

Has humanity ever made direct contact with the Supervision Army?

Edited December 29, 2021 by RaisingCane

[RedWolf]

18 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Has humanity ever made direct contact with the Supervision Army?

As far as we know, no. Space is big and in any case I imagine Terrans and their allies make it their priority not to get into the crossfire. 

The closest Terrans got were their bosses the Protodevlin and two wrecks.

 

 

[RaisingCane]

Is the SA assumed to be hostile to anyone besides the Zentradi?  Would they be as vulnerable to culture shock?

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Has humanity ever made direct contact with the Supervision Army?

Not that we know of... though it'd likely be difficult to tell at a glance, given that a fair amount of the Supervision Army would theoretically be using the same equipment the Zentradi forces use because of the way the organization was created by capturing and turning Zentradi forces.

 

22 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is the SA assumed to be hostile to anyone besides the Zentradi?  Would they be as vulnerable to culture shock?

One would assume that, like the Zentradi, they would be hostile to anything that presents itself as a threat and ignore anything that doesn't.

As to culture shock, it's hard to say.  If their troops are still under the same brainwashing, they might actually be more vulnerable to it than the Zentradi.

[RaisingCane]

Aren't the SA assumed to be heterogeneous (albeit "brainwashed") with male and female Zentradi and Protoculture?  Would the sight of a kiss or hearing music have any effect on such people?

[RedWolf]

Going by DYRL Terrans are likely also thinking Zentradi and the Supervision Army would they would drag them into their conflict making them to chose sides. As Terrans do advance their technology and has influenced some Zentradi to do the same.

NUN should be thankful Quamzim from Macross 2036 and Eternal Love Song isn't here as he brings Main Fleets with him every time he isn't killed.

 

Edit:

In the Modern era all Supervision Army is assumed to be of Zentradi stock as they are all giant. Heck going by Macross 7 Exsedol dismissed the possibility the Varauta were Supervision Army as they were using VFs. Their terror tactics or color scheme certainly reminded him of something. It was close as it their bosses the Protodevlin who were leading them.

Angers 672 in Macross the Ride usurped command of the Lactence remnant Faces seeks to use the Protodevlin Heritage Factory Satellite to brainwash all of humanity and bring further conflict in the galaxy.

We might assume the Protodevlin and by extension their thralls  has brainwashing equipment stashed to replenish troops. Fasces was abducting crews to add to their troops. Taking a page from the Protodevlin playbook.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by RedWolf

[azrael]

8 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Aren't the SA assumed to be heterogeneous (albeit "brainwashed") with male and female Zentradi and Protoculture?  Would the sight of a kiss or hearing music have any effect on such people?

Yes they are comprised of male and female. Kissing and music? We don't know because no one besides the Zentradi/Meltrandi have really encountered them (and we don't know when their last encounter was amongst all the fleets out there). As we saw is Macross 7, kissing did nothing and only Basara's singing had any real effect. If the brainwashing techniques hold true for the SA as they did for Varauta army, it's gonna take more than any singer and PDA to break that brainwashing. But since no one has encountered them, we don't know. You're just going have to accept that answer.

[RaisingCane]

Oh, I accept it.  But I thought it was also generally assumed that there are no space vampires among the SA, so humanity may have nothing they actually want.  If that's true, they may not be hostile unless attacked.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Oh, I accept it.  But I thought it was also generally assumed that there are no space vampires among the SA, so humanity may have nothing they actually want.  If that's true, they may not be hostile unless attacked.

We basically know nothing about the current disposition of the Supervision Army.

Just that they're out there.

[RaisingCane]

Did the UN Spacy stop using the Lancer space fighter for some reason?  I don't recall seeing any successors to it.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Did the UN Spacy stop using the Lancer space fighter for some reason?  I don't recall seeing any successors to it.

Like the Destroids, the SF-3A Lancer II space fighter wasn't a great fit for the realities of space warfare and didn't last long after the First Space War and humanity getting to grips with the "playbook" for space war.

It was basically a manned missile.  Its design intent was for orbital use, to get up to a very high speed and make a single hit-and-run attack on an enemy ship that exhausted all of its fuel and ammunition then await recovery when its orbit next intersected that of its mothership.  Its weapons were extremely powerful for its size but its high-powered thermonuclear reaction pulse rocket engine only had enough fuel for one really hard acceleration burn (at about 15G!), after which it was at the whims of gravity and inertia.

Understandably, not a great idea for deep space use.

[pengbuzz]

46 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We basically know nothing about the current disposition of the Supervision Army.

Just that they're out there.

Zentraedi and Meltrandi and Supervision Army...oh my.

Seriously though: I'm surprised anyone in the galaxy can get a good night's sleep knowing what lies out there and what can turn up at one's doorstep on any given day....

[RedWolf]

18 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Zentraedi and Meltrandi and Supervision Army...oh my.

Seriously though: I'm surprised anyone in the galaxy can get a good night's sleep knowing what lies out there and what can turn up at one's doorstep on any given day....

The NUN has Reaction Weapons and MDE under their pillows just in case. Indeed if we go by the Varauta Flagship carrier specs and Earth brass standing orders to deal with Lost Zentradi it is that leave no witnesses to bring word back to Main Fleets.

Zentradi at least is a known element. Terrans has been caught flat-footed with the unknown. Such as messing around with Protoculture relics that now their response blow it up with MDE. Having lost fleets to Fold Faults. Or plagues taking out emigration fleets. The Protodevlin and Vajra came out of nowhere. 

 

Politics are also a factor. There are Zentradi rebels, Earth Supremacists, Windermerean supremacists, and Cyborg supremacists. Meanwhile arms dealers are making a buck off war.

 

[Bolt]

And as such. Evolving out of a war and greed. Nowhere to be seen..oh well. More mecha action !😝

[Seto Kaiba]

27 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Zentraedi and Meltrandi and Supervision Army...oh my.

Seriously though: I'm surprised anyone in the galaxy can get a good night's sleep knowing what lies out there and what can turn up at one's doorstep on any given day....

Humanity, for its part, seems to have at least partly made peace with the fact that it's a big screwed-up galaxy (because of the Protoculture) and they just live in it.

The fact that the galaxy is a STUPIDLY HUGE place and that space folding is an absolutely terrible way to get around it if you're looking for something and don't know where it is is a bit of a comfort too.  The odds of running into the Zentradi, the Supervision Army, or someone else out there in deep space are vanishingly tiny.  Sometimes you beat the odds, but if that happens you can usually just draw upon the Joestar Family's Secret Technique and run away.  For everything else, there's indecent amounts of thermonuclear weaponry.

[azrael]

I will say it again…

On 12/10/2021 at 11:31 AM, azrael said:

People's notion of how big space normally doesn't do it justice. Space is big. Really big. No bigger. Keep going. Still too small. Still no; keep going. Still not big enough. Nope, still not big enough. Nope. Nope. Still too small. Not even close. Stop trying to stretch. Even Mr. Fantastic can't stretch that far. Nope, keep going. Nope, bigger. Bigger. Still to small. Still too small. Give it up, you're still too small. You already tore your limbs off and you still didn't cover how big space is.

It's by sheer luck NUNS is running into these fleets.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, azrael said:

I will say it again…

Or, as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has it...

Quote

“Space,” it says, “is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.”

 

[TehPW]

42 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or, as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has it...

 

There is one thing we're forgetting: What time is it, depends on where you are in the Galaxy. I'll explain, in Real World terms...

What IF, in every colonized system humanity spreads to, you put a Overtech Web & Hubble Satellite in space and start mapping space, from the perspective of 'What Time is it?' at any particular W&B Sat placed. Can we agree that eventually, someone is gonna start noticing massive Zent (or presumed) fleets out there that was busy taking a pitstop somewhere and somewhen (since everything else outside of fold navigation is speed of light limited).

Edited December 30, 2021 by TehPW
Because Science is Awesome (but it doesn't sell model kits or toys?)

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, TehPW said:

There is one thing we're forgetting: What time is it, depends on where you are in the Galaxy. I'll explain, in Real World terms...

What IF, in every colonized system humanity spreads to, you put a Overtech Web & Hubble Satellite in space and start mapping space, from the perspective of 'What Time is it?' at any particular W&B Sat placed. Can we agree that eventually, someone is gonna start noticing massive Zent (or presumed) fleets out there that was busy taking a pitstop somewhere and somewhen. 

Eh... maybe?  I mean, Zentradi ships are big in human terms, but they're not exactly big in astronomical terms.  It'd be pretty hard to spot them with something like a telescope unless they're quite close.  You'd be much more likely to spot them with a gravity wave detector, though since gravity waves propagate at or very near lightspeed you'd likely only find out a Zentradi fleet was in your backyard years or decades after it arrived and left.  (Kind of like how Vrlitwhai found Earth... his fleet was lucky enough to be in exactly the right place to see the residual gravity waves of a defold event ten light years away ten years after the fact, and triangulate them to Earth's solar system.)  Mind you, if your system has any kind of space fold-based traffic coming and going that'll produce noise that'll muddy any potential long-range detections.

In addition to space folding being a pretty terrible way to get around, the other part of the double-blind that's keeping humanity quite safe in a dangerous galaxy is that the range of sensor systems is quite short in interplanetary terms.  A really good, high-end cross dimensional radar has a range of about a light day (173.15 AU).  More traditional options are a lot shorter-ranged.  Master File mentions 4,000,000km is pretty well outside the operational detection range of a Zentradi fleet.  That's enough distance to give a fleet literally DAYS to decide how to respond.

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Or, as the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has it...

 

The 'Powers of 10' from the BBC also does a good job at helping visualize the scale of space.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, sketchley said:

The 'Powers of 10' from the BBC also does a good job at helping visualize the scale of space.

Favorited for later use.  Thank you for this most excellent resource.  

[RaisingCane]

Are there any records of Zentradi having planetary bases or are they completely mobile?

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Are there any records of Zentradi having planetary bases or are they completely mobile?

Not officially.

However, the Zentradi dojinshi has this to say:

 

"Kirutora Keruēru class Planetary Assault Landing Ship

(...)

The ship's primary use is to be the sortie mothership of an assault drop operation on a planet where the enemy is, using atmospheric descent boats. Be that as it may, it is rather unusual for the Zentrādi Forces or the Supervision Forces—both of which always mobilize in fleets in outer space—to be on a planet's surface.

Because there is no concept of "making things" in both armed forces, they also don't conduct base construction, either.  When a fleet descends and deploys on a planet, it is mostly to conceal themselves or to use the planet as a "shield", and only the "terrain" is used.  Moreover, given that most of the time such tactical actions appear if the fleet is cornered, the Kirutora Keruēru should have been necessary only in limited situations.  However, the Kirutora Keruēru's extraordinary robustness and great carrying capacity have given it a variety of other uses.

(...)

Edited December 30, 2021 by sketchley

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Are there any records of Zentradi having planetary bases or are they completely mobile?

Well we only know Zentradi that already has contact with Terrans that set up bases. Either rebels or 118th Main Fleet remnants or a combination of both. Such as with the case of the 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army which welcomed in their ranks mutineers from Earth. They gave them tech upgrades for their vehicles as well as the Feios Valkyrie. 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army kidnapped the Idol Group Milky Dolls in preparation for their raid of Earth. The planet Elysium an abandoned Terran colony was turned to their base of operations. That is because buried there is a damaged Mobile Fortress which they would have used in their attack on Earth. The Valhalla III's VF-X Special Forces rescued the Milky Dolls and neutralized the threat using Song Energy System developed by Macross 7 and a AVF to kill the giant Commander that serves as the Mobile Fortress' biological computer.

[RaisingCane]

Are the colonization fleets just aimlessly exploring the galaxy in search of habitable planets?  I'd think the Zentradi would have had lots of time to stumble across them over half a million years.

[Seto Kaiba]

8 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Are the colonization fleets just aimlessly exploring the galaxy in search of habitable planets?  I'd think the Zentradi would have had lots of time to stumble across them over half a million years.

Each emigrant fleet charts its own course through space in search of a habitable world to settle.

The short-distance emigrant fleets focused on exploring space within 100 light years of Earth, which led to the discovery of planets like Eden.  The far larger long-distance emigrant fleet formations don't have a specific destination in mind, but they're not wandering aimlessly by any means.  Even the fleets that don't have a general area of the galaxy in mind do quite a bit of planning before and after launch, and diligently scout out their chosen course and the area of space around it using small pilot fleets of escort ships.  They look for all kinds of things like exploitable resources (e.g. asteroids or comets to mine), for inhabitable planets, for already-inhabited planets, for potential or actual threats like Zentradi fleets, etc. etc.

For their part, the Zentradi don't really care about planets - inhabitable or otherwise - unless the Supervision Army is present.  Their indoctrinated-in mindset is extremely simplistic.  They care about finding and destroying their enemy, and everything that isn't related to that goes in a great big category of "that's nice, I don't care".  It's been indicated that they're apathetic even towards potentially-dangerous navigational hazards like fold faults because they're not an enemy or potential enemy in the conventional sense.  Being entirely fleet-based, they have no interest in planets unless the planet harbors an enemy or potential enemy.  Emigrant fleets that bump into the Zentradi in open space or get unlucky enough to have a Zentradi fleet stumble on the planet they've settled on run the risk of being mistaken for Supervision Army or simply being attacked as a potential threat, which is why there are New UN Forces directives and guidelines involving destroying rogue Zentradi fleets (e.g. "Fleet of the Strongest Women") or avoiding them whenever possible.

TL;DR: the Zentradi have probably stumbled across a lot of potentially inhabitable planets... but unless there's something to fight there it's not something that they bother with.

[RaisingCane]

Aside from the Vajra, have they encountered any sapient non-humanoid aliens yet?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Aside from the Vajra, have they encountered any sapient non-humanoid aliens yet?

Thus far, the only sentient non-humanoid species to be depicted in Macross have been the incorporeal energy beings from higher-dimensional space that became the Protodeviln and the insectoid Vajra.  The Vajra aren't individually intelligent, though, the consciousness exists "in the cloud" formed by their zero-time fold wave network so they only count en masse.

Galactic whales were confirmed to be an intelligent form of life in Macross Dynamite 7... but the jury is out regarding exactly HOW intelligent.  They're definitely not the purely instinct-driven hybrids of plant and mineral they were initially believed to be given that they were shown to be capable of complex communication.

Most sentient life in the galaxy is humanoid, because the Protoculture made it in their image.

[RedWolf]

13 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Are the colonization fleets just aimlessly exploring the galaxy in search of habitable planets?  I'd think the Zentradi would have had lots of time to stumble across them over half a million years.

From what we know they send out recon fleets to explore the region before sending out an emigration fleet there. In the case of Macross 4 it found Sephira in 2033 a few short years after the New Macross Class was put into service and terraformed the planet. Max was was part of a exploratory mission on Gubaba's planet. The place is full of predators. He brought back an injured Gubaba which became his daughter's pet. Forming a sort of telepathic bond with her.

 

Thing there are fully colonized planets like Eden and remote planets that are sparcely inhabited that are used for agriculture or mining or even an base such as Gaul 4.

Megaroad-01,  Megaroad-13, Macross 5, Macross 7, Macross 11, Macross Galaxy, and Macross Frontier all went to the direction of the galactic core. Seems to be the old Protoculture territory perhaps increasing the chance of A class planets. 

 

Megaroad-04 went rimward of the Sagittarius Arm discovering Windermere at the end. Meanwhile Island Jackpot discovered Ragna. The Brisingr Globular Cluster has A class planets that were Protoculture settlements. On three worlds were three Sub-Protoculture races that got uplifted by Terrans. Ragnans who let Terrans and Zentradi settle their planet becoming a tourist trap. Voldorians that became a NUN member and has an export trade of natural resources. And Windermere at the ass end of the cluster isolated by Fold Faults. They are both isolationist and xenophobic. Just because the Protoculture gave them very short lives compared to Terrans and others. Also at the Sagittarius arm but not at the Brisingr Cluster is the abandoned colony of Elysium which was used by Rogue Zentradi as base as they were repairing a Mobile Fortress that was under the crust of the planet. 

 

Somewhere in the galactic rim region but not at the Brisingr Cluster is planet Zola, home of the Zolans and frequent migration point of Galactic Whales. The Galactic Whales form was the basis for the Nupetiet-Vergnitzs class used by the Protoculture. Vajra were not the only Fold capable space organisms they copied.

 

The mission of Emigration fleets is to find planet to settle on whether fully inhabitable or can be terraformed. However there are certain laws in effect. The Galaxy Treaty stipulates they can't invade an alien races' home planet. 

 

[RaisingCane]

Wouldn't it make more sense to send out recon fleets of allied Zentradi that are less likely to attract hostile attention from half of the galaxy's two huge warring factions?

[RedWolf]

43 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to send out recon fleets of allied Zentradi that are less likely to attract hostile attention from half of the galaxy's two huge warring factions?

Out of a thousand ships of Vritwhai Adoclass fleet that defected a hundred survived. Some 2,000 ships crashed on Earth. Some like Richard Bilrer who was a ship commander went to the private sector making his transport empire. He's so filthy rich he sponsors Macross Frontier and has a foundation scholarship for those on remote planets like Leon Mishima. Tachyon Express another transport company started out as Queadluun delivery service. Basically some Zentradi got bit by the Capitalism bug and made it big early. I can see why VF-1 and Destroids became part of Space War 1 veteran retirement packages. Milia got her VF-1J while the Silver Paradise retirees on Macross 7 got their Monster II. 

 

A Nupetiet-Vergnitzs refit was part Megaroad-01 escort fleet. Macross 5 has Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis among their escorts. Though going by both Macross Frontier and Macross Delta Zentradi ships belonging to NUNS is crewed by Zentradi NUNS Marines.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to send out recon fleets of allied Zentradi that are less likely to attract hostile attention from half of the galaxy's two huge warring factions?

Maybe, but it's not logistically feasible due to the lack of ships and personnel.

The New UN Government only had a hundred or so secondhand Zentradi ships when the dust settled literally and figuratively on the First Space War.  Many of those weren't in the best of shape either, and doing extensive retrofits on a Zentradi ship takes a significant investment of time, resources, and manpower that could potentially produce multiple of the smaller, more efficient, and stealthier human warship designs.  There just weren't anywhere near enough ships to go around even if they hadn't repurposed some of the larger ones as short-distance emigrant ships.  

With the humankind seeding plan calling for emigrant fleets to be launched pretty much yearly, using smaller and more efficient human-made ships were the only real option.  By the mid-2040s, there were something like 169 emigrant fleets of various sizes launched, ranging in size from tens of thousands to tens of millions of people and escort fleets of anywhere from a few dozen to hundreds of warships.

Not to mention that, with the mechanics of space folding, you don't want the force that's scouting ahead of your emigrant fleet to be too far ahead or they can't meaningfully warn you about threats along your course.  It can take a decade to cross the galaxy by space fold.  If your scouts are years ahead if you, any warning they send is meaningless since conditions will have changed by the time you get there.

Ships in general aren't indefinitely self-sufficient.  Zentradi ships depend on the supplies from factory satellites, storage depots, and mobile fortresses to sustain operation out in deep space for months or years at a time.  Humans have to drag massive space going factories with them and mine comets and asteroids to make ends meet on those long haul voyages, and even then they're noted to be not-terribly-comfortable places to live for most.  So much so that the Sharon-type AI was created in part to use a mild hypnosis to help take the edge off and maintain public order in emigrant ships.

[azrael]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

For their part, the Zentradi don't really care about planets - inhabitable or otherwise - unless the Supervision Army is present. 
...

TL;DR: the Zentradi have probably stumbled across a lot of potentially inhabitable planets... but unless there's something to fight there it's not something that they bother with.

Not to mention Zentradi star charts are either woefully outdated, inaccurate, or hell, uncharted. Zentradi are using maps created in Protoculture times. Suns may have gone nova, planets may no longer exist, habitable planets may not be habitable anymore or vice versa, black holes may have formed, stellar drift, hell... gravity, etc.  They're not wandering aimlessly, they're wandering with the aim of finding stuff along the path they pick.