The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[briscojr84]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

... woah, now there's a name I haven't seen in a long time.  How you doin'?

As for your question, the Macross Compendium Wiki is probably as close as you'll get in English right now... I don't think anyone has a complete listing, partly bceause some stuff doesn't actually have names and partly because definitions of "complete" vary a bit depending on whether one wants to count material outside the official setting like Master File.

Not too bad; as usual ups and downs over the last few years; been plugging away at my Pen and Paper RPG that I've been creating and close to being done.

How have you been doing?

Anything even close would be great; thank you much appreciated

[sketchley]

24 minutes ago, briscojr84 said:

Sorry; quick question guys; I've been trying to find a site with a complete or at least comprehensive list of VFs, Mecha, ships, etc for a few weeks now and can't seem to find one; is there one and if so it would be greatly appreciated if someone could point me in that direction.

 

http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics.php

As a list, it's as complete as I've been able to make it up to Macross Delta.

Off the top of my head, the only things that are missing are the stuff from Macross II, as well as that combiner enemy mecha from the Macross M3 video game.

Edited December 23, 2021 by sketchley

[briscojr84]

1 minute ago, sketchley said:

http://sdfyodogawa.mywebcommunity.org/Stats/Statistics.php

It's as complete as I've been able to make it up to Macross Delta.

Off the top of my head, the only things that are missing are the stuff from Macross II, as well as that combiner enemy mecha from the Macross M3 video game.

Thanks man; greatly appreciate.

[RedWolf]

 

 

 

I use Japanese Wikipedia which translates when using Chrome. You can find what you are looking for in "Appearance Mechanism" under each series page.

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズ

Macross Series

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズの用語一覧

Macross Terminology 

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/超時空要塞マクロスの登場メカ一覧

SDF Macross Mecha Appearance List

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/可変戦闘機_(マクロスシリーズ)

Variable Fighters

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ゼントラーディ軍の兵器#ケルカリア

Zentradi Military Weapons

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/新マクロス級超長距離移民船団#マクロス13船団

New Macross Class

 

 

[briscojr84]

11 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

 

 

 

I use Japanese Wikipedia which translates when using Chrome. You can find what you are looking for in "Appearance Mechanism" under each series page.

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズ

Macross Series

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズの用語一覧

Macross Terminology 

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/超時空要塞マクロスの登場メカ一覧

SDF Macross Mecha Appearance List

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/可変戦闘機_(マクロスシリーズ)

Variable Fighters

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ゼントラーディ軍の兵器#ケルカリア

Zentradi Military Weapons

https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/新マクロス級超長距離移民船団#マクロス13船団

New Macross Class

 

 

Awesome; thank you.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, briscojr84 said:

Not too bad; as usual ups and downs over the last few years; been plugging away at my Pen and Paper RPG that I've been creating and close to being done.

How have you been doing?

Anything even close would be great; thank you much appreciated

Ah, nice.  I'm doing well, working on my own website and all... still hosting M3 and all.

 

You may find this helpful, my breakdown of all VFs by generation:

 

[briscojr84]

58 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Ah, nice.  I'm doing well, working on my own website and all... still hosting M3 and all.

 

You may find this helpful, my breakdown of all VFs by generation:

Sweet; this should come in handy deciphering the long list of everything I've been hearing about.

 

[talonlm]

So what did happen to Chloré's Fleet?  I read the Wiki--but if any place would have information on it beyond what that it would be someone here.

[RaisingCane]

Since Basara reduced them all to screaming fangirls, they probably made it their mission to track him down.

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, talonlm said:

So what did happen to Chloré's Fleet?  I read the Wiki--but if any place would have information on it beyond what that it would be someone here.

Well Max and Milia's intention contrary to the wishes of Earth's brass to destroy Chlore's fleet was to get a peace treaty with them. Perhaps even an alliance. Her fleet has an estimated 97,000 ships. 

Most Zentradi ships we've seen post DYRL in the Kawamori continuity are Male Zentradi types. In Macross VF-X2 Vindirance had a fleet of Meltrandi LSTs and a Meltrandi Flagship in its ranks. Macross VF-X2 was about the Second Unification War (2050-2051) between the Earth Supremacist faction Lactence and the Pro-decentralization faction Vindirance. Basically Macross' version of Gundam's Titans War. Vindirance won. Macross the Ride novelization attribute this event as to why UN Spacy is now called New UN Spacy or NUNS. Lactence remnants still use the UNS kite as a symbol.

My theory is that Chlore possibly loaned ships to Max and Milia's daughter Therese Jenius who is the leader of Vindirance under the name Maria Fokina Barnrose. The agency serving as oversight for VF-X Special Forces after the war was called the Barnrose agency. It is said Maximillian Jenius supported Vindirance.

 

Also note Ernest Johnson and Gramia were participants in this war. Ernest Johnson got the reputation Commander of a hundred battles and a hundred losses but no crown due to joining the losing sides of this war. First the Zentrandi rebel group Black Rainbow and later Lactence. Gramia was at the side of Vindirance flying a VF as he sees he is fighting for Windermere's independence. After the war Ernest Johnson became an advisor to Gramia before dismissed when Windermere's First Independence War against NUNS in 2060.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, talonlm said:

So what did happen to Chloré's Fleet?  I read the Wiki--but if any place would have information on it beyond what that it would be someone here.

Nope, they just kinda go off and do their own thing I guess... they're never mentioned again.  (It was an unbroadcasted episode, so it borders on being a Big Lipped Alligator Moment.)

[RaisingCane]

Is there any reason to think that all Zentradi immediately abandon their war against the Supervision Army just because they had a brief encounter with Earth culture?

[RedWolf]

6 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is there any reason to think that all Zentradi immediately abandon their war against the Supervision Army just because they had a brief encounter with Earth culture?

The Supervision Army Ship that was encountered as Factory Satellite capture operation was happening was determined to have been attacked by ships that escaped Earth. So yes that didn't stop the Zentradi who encountered Terrans. Chlore's fleet only got second hand information about the Terrans particularly their signature of transforming their ships into humanoid form.

 

Zentradi protocol after the Main Fleet Commander is killed is scatter and regroup with another Zentradi fleet. However they will likely be considered contaminated by their brethren.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is there any reason to think that all Zentradi immediately abandon their war against the Supervision Army just because they had a brief encounter with Earth culture?

Nah, even in the original series the "culture shock" effect of the Minmay Attack and so on was shown to vary depending on the individual and the duration of their exposure.

The Zentradi spies were immersed in Earth's culture for a month or so and being the inquisitive sort from a reconnaissance unit they went native pretty quick.  Others struggled to adapt and lost to their engineered fighting instincts and the Protoculture-designed mental conditioning only to be killed in combat by the UN Forces.  Among the Boddole Zer main fleet, of the 4,000,000 ships left after the Grand Cannon was done firing the only ships and crews left after the fleet scattered with the loss of its mothership were the ones who'd already sided with Earth against their own people (for fear of being destroyed by their own people as "contaminated") and those that'd been shot down and crashed on Earth as a result of the fighting.  The overwhelming majority of the 3 million ships left after the mothership blew up scattered to the metaphorical winds rather than stay at Earth.

There's some excellent examples in Macross II's timeline, where Quamzin and some of his malcontents not only escape into space but repeatedly come back wth other fleets and try to destroy Earth.  They're clearly having none of it.

Basically, to some Zentradi the exposure and interest in Earth's culture is a passing fancy.  To others, that culture is internalized and becomes their own.  That's why there are the occasional outbreaks of violence among the Zentradi population on Earth as folks struggle with adapting to Earth's culture and sublimating or suppressing their instinctiver drive to do battle.  Some get through it by simply being well-adjusted and openminded.  Some need a little medicinal help, like Guld.  Some self-medicate in unhelpful ways with alcohol like Roli Dosel did.  Some don't get through it and either get packed off into a New UN Spacy Marine Corps unit to help them live a productive and full life while indulging in the combat instincts they couldn't suppress (e.g. the 33rd Marines in Macross Frontier), and the ones who go off the metaphorical reservation and become terrorists tend to end up shot.

[RedWolf]

Contact with Humanity just gave some Zentradi ideological causes. Both Richard Bilrer and Naresuan believe the Children of the Protoculture should be united but their methods are different. Richard Bilrer seeks to use technological innovation to make the galaxy smaller. Naresuan subscribes to the supremacy of Earth and that all planets and fleets should follow it in a centralized galaxy spanning government if need be by force . Then there is Timothy Daldaton who did serve in UN Spacy but turned against it when it became clear it is being used to abuse Frontier planets. Thus subscribing to autonomy. 

 

 

[RaisingCane]

How long can Zentradi live?

[Seto Kaiba]

26 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

How long can Zentradi live?

The New UN Gov't is still figuring out what the average Zentradi life expectancy is.  Humanity hasn't been living with the Zentradi for long enough to have a clear picture of that yet.  It's played for laughs in Macross 7's "Which One Do You Love?", when a 50-something Milia gets sick and WebMD's herself into believing she's dying of old age when she's actually just got the space equivalent of the common cold.

By the 2050s, Zentradi who were in their 20s and 30s in the First Space War are showing signs of old age (e.g. Richard Bilra) but with modern medicine and the generally decently high quality of living they're still pretty darn spry for their age.

It's usually assumed that Zentradi have very similar natural lifespans to humans, though modern medicine skews that quite a bit due to the high standard of care and living.

[azrael]

6 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

By the 2050s, Zentradi who were in their 20s and 30s in the First Space War are showing signs of old age (e.g. Richard Bilra) but with modern medicine and the generally decently high quality of living they're still pretty darn spry for their age.

Then again, we never knew what Bilra looked like before Frontier. He could have looked more or less the same 50 years earlier. 

[RaisingCane]

Can't the Zentradi just transfer their minds into younger clone versions of themselves?  Isn't that essentially what happens when they micronize?

Edited December 24, 2021 by RaisingCane

[Seto Kaiba]

5 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Can't the Zentradi just transfer their minds into younger clone versions of themselves?  Isn't that essentially what happens when they micronize?

The body that's constructed by the miclone machine is, more or less, an exact copy of them genetically... and the cause of aging is technically a generic factor (telomerase), so cloning your way out of aging doesn't quite work.

[pengbuzz]

47 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The body that's constructed by the miclone machine is, more or less, an exact copy of them genetically... and the cause of aging is technically a generic factor (telomerase), so cloning your way out of aging doesn't quite work.

They would have to make a clone of the person when they were that age, and put that in storage. I'm not sure the micloning process works that way, and even if they could do so, I don't think they could just transplant the consciousness into that. So I agree with you: they can't just clone their way out of it.

Edited December 24, 2021 by pengbuzz

[RedWolf]

We have seen Space War I veterans fight in wars decades later. Timothy Daldanton fought in the Second Defensive Battle of Macross City in 2030 and was killed in 2051. He still looked young. Naresuan on the other hand was a commander type. Besides being a veteran of Space War 1 he was also a veteran of the Varauta War. He was killed in 2058 in Macross the Ride. And he was friends with Richard Bilrer.

Exsedol Folmo is a living institution. He looked like an old man in Spade War 1 and he still looks like that in Macross 7 and Macross Delta Zettai Live!. 

 

Upon giving birth to her seventh child Milia looks visually identical to her daughter Komilia. Her berserk button though is being called auntie/grandma. Oh dear Basara can just tell how old she is. Then again she is a known hero and politician. Chlore who is Milia' contemporary acted like a teen fangirl.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Upon giving birth to her seventh child Milia looks visually identical to her daughter Komilia. Her berserk button though is being called auntie/grandma.

That shouldn't be taken seriously though, as it's an acknowledged in-joke by the show's creators.  Her aversion to being called obaa-san is a pretty standard cliche for middle-aged women.

[RaisingCane]

Isn't this the 10th anniversary of Quamzin's raid on Onogi City?

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Isn't this the 10th anniversary of Quamzin's raid on Onogi City?

Yup.

[sketchley]

5 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

They would have to make a clone of the person when they were that age, and put that in storage. I'm not sure the micloning process works that way, and even if they could do so, I don't think they could just transplant the consciousness into that. So I agree with you: they can't just clone their way out of it.

Re: cloning in the Macross universe

Long story short, don't ask!  Seriously, I don't think the creators have worked the mechanics of it out, either.

On the one hand, in SDFM they pretty much say that the Zentradi are exactly the same as humans.  However, they also imply that military operations take decades from start to finish—sometimes dozens of decades—yet we never see an old-aged Zentradi (aside from Buritai and Exsedore, who are arguably 'middle aged').

I don't want to think about the implications of that in the Macross universe (all signs point to euthanasia at a young age).  On the other hand, Robotech (or the Palladium Books interpretation of it) indicated that the masses of soldiers are put into stasis when they're not needed...

 

Nevertheless, one thing to keep in mind is that the genetic cause of aging (telomerase) wasn't known at the time SDFM was created, so cloning yourself a younger body is a viable option.  Not to mention that cloning involves Over Technology, so it's possible that even if we factor in telomerase-based aging, there's a workaround. 

However, it doesn't explain why Buritai never restored his ruined eye... maybe the cloning process copies you 'as-is', and doesn't rely on genetics?  (as illogical as that sounds, remember that we're talking about Macross with its Over Technology handwavium.)

[sketchley]

7 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

How long can Zentradi live?

In brief: the same as humans.

Caveat: Zentradi are genetically designed super-soldiers.  So, their age spans would be at the maximum levels.  Possibly longer due to those modifications.  And as others have pointed out, aging also appears to be delayed as well—nobody wants enfeebled soldiers after all.

Perhaps when the Zentradi naturally die, it's a rapid degradation, as their bodies are designed to operate at peak levels, and they just burn out?

[RaisingCane]

Wouldn't super-advanced Protoculture biotech have ways of slowing the aging process?

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, sketchley said:

However, it doesn't explain why Buritai never restored his ruined eye... maybe the cloning process copies you 'as-is', and doesn't rely on genetics?  (as illogical as that sounds, remember that we're talking about Macross with its Over Technology handwavium.)

Is that even an injury? His clone brother Ogothai has the same implants. 

In the Macross Frontier novelization adaptation it mentions Richard Bilrer micloned himself following the Vajra in a VF-1. In the anime he just sighed with a picture of Minmay. Richard Bilrer also had an eye implant. DYRL Meltrandi explicitly has cybernetics yet can presumably go Miclone. Sylvie Geena of Macross II had a Meltrandi grandmother. 

 

Then there is the case Klan Klang. How the hell does the Miclone chamber turns her always to a ten year old? Which begs the question if Moaramia who was a Zentradi child soldier that grew as a teen miclone will revert to a giant Mini-Me when she goes big again? Her clones are specifically made to pilot cramp Variable Glaugs.

Edited December 25, 2021 by RedWolf

[Bolt]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The body that's constructed by the miclone machine is, more or less, an exact copy of them genetically... and the cause of aging is technically a generic factor (telomerase), so cloning your way out of aging doesn't quite work.

Except for Klan Klan...?

[aurance]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The body that's constructed by the miclone machine is, more or less, an exact copy of them genetically... and the cause of aging is technically a generic factor (telomerase), so cloning your way out of aging doesn't quite work.

I can tell you as a former (cancer) molecular biologist that what’s happening in micloning isn’t cloning in any modern sense. I don’t think you can match the age of one body to another by telomere length (assuming this is causative and not just a marker of biological age, which is not at all certain) in all cells without some sort of incredibly high resolution magi-tech scanning and printing, and at that point I would assume this tech could make your other host body whatever age you want. So yeah, this is pretty anime fantasy.

Edited December 25, 2021 by aurance

[RedWolf]

Not to mention Spiritual Bodies are a thing in Macross. It appears when people Fold-in and Fold-out. I suspect the Miclone Chamber creates a new body and places the Spiritual Body in it. There are Space Fold shenanigans going on.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, sketchley said:

On the one hand, in SDFM they pretty much say that the Zentradi are exactly the same as humans.  However, they also imply that military operations take decades from start to finish—sometimes dozens of decades—yet we never see an old-aged Zentradi (aside from Buritai and Exsedore, who are arguably 'middle aged').

I don't want to think about the implications of that in the Macross universe (all signs point to euthanasia at a young age).  On the other hand, Robotech (or the Palladium Books interpretation of it) indicated that the masses of soldiers are put into stasis when they're not needed...

Palladium Books's Robotech and Macross II games got up to some shenanigans on that front because the writers had no sense of scale.  For whatever reason, they ignored the show showing that Zentradi soldiers spend their off-duty time in bunkrooms and wardrooms little different to those on any naval vessel and decided that the Zentradi rank and file are kept in cold sleep outside of immediate battle conditions... even though that would've made it impossible for the events of Macross to happen, what with the spy trio exposing their fellow troops to artifacts from the Macross in their free time.

Given that the Zentradi were regarded as disposable resources by the Protoculture and that mass production of them was a given, I doubt they even wasted the effort to give them unnatural longevity.  We're talking about the same people who weren't willing to even consider operator comfort or ease of use on the Regult.

 

10 hours ago, sketchley said:

However, it doesn't explain why Buritai never restored his ruined eye... maybe the cloning process copies you 'as-is', and doesn't rely on genetics?  (as illogical as that sounds, remember that we're talking about Macross with its Over Technology handwavium.)

It's never made clear what caused Vrlitwhai's eye to be ruined... there's no scar shown in the art, just a non-functional eye.  He may have had a genetic defect that wasn't so severe it caused him to be rejected in quality control.

 

9 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't super-advanced Protoculture biotech have ways of slowing the aging process?

Maybe... it's possible they didn't even need to consider it, since quality of life on its own has a pretty significant impact on your longevity and most accounts of their civilization at the peak of its power put them in "crystal spires and togas" territory.  You can stay remarkably hale and hearty as a human well into your 50's and 60's with proper diet, exercise, and the benefits of modern medicine alone.  

(It's also possible some of them experimented with unnatural means of lifespan extension and the results were unfavorable.  Ingues in Macross II has a lot more personality than an average living command computer, and he'd supposedly gradually lost the plot over time and become a complete psycho.)

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Is that even an injury? His clone brother Ogothai has the same implants. 

He's referring to the TV version, not the movie version.

Vrlitwhai's animation model sheets for Super Dimension Fortress Macross - viewable on page 137 of Entertainment Bible 51 or his Macross Chronicle character sheet TV Zentradi 01A's reverse side - shows that the metal plate half-mask he wears is an outlandish eyepatch concealing a non-functional right eye.  The way it's drawn, it's a lazy eye and appears blind as well.  Macross Chronicle notes that it's not clear whether this is the result of injury or a defect in his construction.

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

DYRL Meltrandi explicitly has cybernetics yet can presumably go Miclone.

Not extensive ones... they have the connector to link their bio-fiber optic nervous systems to the controls of the Queadluun-Rau battle suits, but that's about it.  The bio-fiber optics in their nervous systems are apparently a part of their genetic makeup.

It's been explicitly noted on a few occasions, particularly in connection with Exsedol, that the micloning system can add/remove mission-specific Zentradi biotech features during the process.  Exsedol stripped out his records officer modifications when he micloned, then reinstituted them when he feared losing his memories and storage capacity when he switched back to living as a giant.  It's unclear whether this is simply enabling or disabling specific sections of their tailored genetic code or if the system is actually changing their genes.  Since clones are created for specific roles at inception, I'm inclined to suspect the latter.  It's been indicated that some of the necessary data involved in micloning is written in the spaces between genes normally active in humans, like the instructions for changes in biochemistry and body structure that restructure Zentradi anatomy to compensate for the square-cubed law among other things.

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Then there is the case Klan Klang. How the hell does the Miclone chamber turns her always to a ten year old? Which begs the question if Moaramia who was a Zentradi child soldier that grew as a teen miclone will revert to a giant Mini-Me when she goes big again? Her clones are specifically made to pilot cramp Variable Glaugs.

That's one of the pieces of evidence in the series that made it explicit that the micloning system is determining the user's body state using their DNA.

Klan is noted, both in series and official publications, to have a rare genetic abnormality that prevents her from micloning properly.  

Michael Blanc is also noted to have issues with a miclone system because of his genetic structure.  His mixed heritage of Human, Zentradi, and Zolan, apparently causes issues with the process that could seriously sicken or even kill him to the extent that it's noted he'd only be able to go through the micloning system as a one-way trip.

 

8 hours ago, Bolt said:

Except for Klan Klan...?

The aforementioned genetic abnormality, possibly a result of her being a natural born child to two Zentradi parents and some simple bad luck, is what causes that.

 

8 hours ago, aurance said:

I can tell you as a former (cancer) molecular biologist that what’s happening in micloning isn’t cloning in any modern sense. I don’t think you can match the age of one body to another by telomere length (assuming this is causative and not just a marker of biological age, which is not at all certain) in all cells without some sort of incredibly high resolution magi-tech scanning and printing, and at that point I would assume this tech could make your other host body whatever age you want. So yeah, this is pretty anime fantasy.

Whether that can be done for real with modern technology... it's a popular convention in science fiction at the very least.

You'd know far better than I how much actual support there is for Olovnikov's telomere hypothesis of aging.

However it works in the miclone system, the system always seems to be able to produce a copy of the body at the exact same age barring rare malfunctions caused by genetic code abnormalities like Klan's.

 

One nagging question about miclone systems that's never been addressed is if you lose things like scars and tattoos going through the process... since it conveniently seems to keep even your hairstyle.

[aurance]

Yep. My point being if you had the tech to create an exact duplicate of yourself down to age, you’d most likely be able to generate any age you want to give yourself younger bodies, another sci-fi trope. Macross skips that though, which is interesting. Just big or small.

Edited December 25, 2021 by aurance

[RaisingCane]

Is the macronization of humans (e.g. Max) canon within the "reality" of Macross or is it regarded as a fictional invention of the in-universe movie?

Edited December 28, 2021 by RaisingCane