The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Fold Carbon aka Fold Coal aka Fold Ore, and Fold Quartz are material needed to produce artificial gravity. That is how Fusion power is achieved in Reaction Engines or Fold Reactors. By crushing matter to produce Plasma.

Specifically, elemental hydrogen... OTM thermonuclear reactors (AKA heat pile systems AKA fold reactors) use artificial gravity to achieve a more complete and efficient thermonuclear fusion reaction that emulates the hydrogen fusion chain reactions in stars to a greater extent than modern attempts at fusion power.

 

7 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

That is why in Atmosphere VFs virtually do not need fuel to fly as air is fuel.

That's... misleading.  The fuel consumption rate is astonishingly low, but still very much present.

Using the gravity produced by heavy quantum as a gravitational "pinch" in the compact thermonuclear reactor allows for the reaction to run much hotter than what would ordinarily be possible using magnetic or laser confinement, so only small amounts of plasma need to be bled from the reactor to introduce massive amounts of heat into the intake airflow.  If you take the tech manuals at face value, the burn rate's a bit over a liter of hydrogen slush per hour per engine.

(Master File suggests the fusion temperature inside OTM thermonuclear reactors is well in excess of carbon fusion's temperatures and pressures... well over 230 million degrees C.  In the VF-25 book, the FF-3001A's reaction temperature is said to be close to 400 million degrees C.)

 

7 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Space however needs full fuel tanks. This is why the Sv-262 Draken III had a limited flight time during deployment. It has small fuel tanks. Also why Hayate is warned how he uses his RCS thrusters. The guy wastes his fuel in Space.

To clarify, the reason that fuel consumption is significantly greater in space is because plasma from the thermonuclear reactor is used as a propellant.

[RaisingCane]

Is the Macross Elysion-class intended to be the successor to the Battle-class?

[azrael]

55 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Fold Carbon aka Fold Coal aka Fold Ore, and Fold Quartz are material needed to produce artificial gravity. That is how Fusion power is achieved in Reaction Engines or Fold Reactors.

Yeah....careful. You're missing a part there. Macross VFs still use fuel/propellant (even if it's fraction vs space-use). The fancy fold rocks have unique properties making them ideal for creating the gravitational force needed to sustain the thermonuclear reaction, which is part of the whole fusion power-thingy. But they still need a fuel; namely hydrogen.

8 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is the Macross Elysion-class intended to be the successor to the Battle-class?

No.

[RedWolf]

So far due to likely the policy of not confusing the audience we have not seen NUNS use yet other Macross types beyond the SDFN and Battle Class. It is possible they commissioned Macross Quarter Class and Whatever-sion Class ships but so far we only seen them exclusively used by SMS and Xaos. Also we have seen Epsilon Foundation acquiring Macross ships, modifying them, and providing them to very questionable people. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Is the Macross Elysion-class intended to be the successor to the Battle-class?

We do not actually know how the Macross Elysion-type - whatever its actual class name is - fits into the bigger picture as of yet.

It is, however, extremely unlikely that it is intended as a successor to the Battle-class which are currently the New UN Forces heaviest standard warship.

If anything, it seems likely that the Macross Elysion-type is a predecessor to the more compact Macross Quarter-class that was intended to bring the mobility of variable warships to an escort carrier while also having the firepower of a heavy cruiser.  Xaos is generally presented as being less well-off than Strategic Military Services, and they seem to have had at least a few Elysion-type warships around the same time the Macross Quarter-class was entering the final phases of operational testing, which suggests the Elysion-type is older.

[RaisingCane]

Isn't the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis still quite a bit heavier than the Battle-class or have they all been retired?

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Isn't the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis still quite a bit heavier than the Battle-class or have they all been retired?

It's physically bigger, yes... but the Battle-class massively outguns it thanks to its Macross Cannon.

It's also not built by the New UN Forces, it's a refurbished captured Zentradi warship class.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[RaisingCane]

Doesn't the Neo have a heavy converging beam cannon?  M3 says it does.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Doesn't the Neo have a heavy converging beam cannon?  M3 says it does.

I don't believe it's ever been depicted with one, and Macross Chronicle doesn't mention it having one.  

Mind you, the Battle-class's Macross Cannon has disproportionately large firepower for its size since it's intended to one-shot a small fleet and still basically outclasses the firepower of a single Zentradi ship.

[pengbuzz]

1 minute ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I don't believe it's ever been depicted with one, and Macross Chronicle doesn't mention it having one.  

Mind you, the Battle-class's Macross Cannon has disproportionately large firepower for its size since it's intended to one-shot a small fleet and still basically outclasses the firepower of a single Zentradi ship.

Speaks to the intended power of a Battle-class; several of those could wreak major damage on an enemy. I've read where they have some of those serving without being attached to a colony fleet (part of battle groups and whatnot).

[RedWolf]

From what I get the bis in Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis, Octos bis, and Neo Glaug bis means Custom. 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Speaks to the intended power of a Battle-class; several of those could wreak major damage on an enemy. I've read where they have some of those serving without being attached to a colony fleet (part of battle groups and whatnot).

Macross 13 aka Battle 13 is not attached to a Emigration Fleet as 13 is treated as somewhat a taboo or unofficial number. Thus Macross 13 fleet is an Earth or Federal forces Macross. During the Second Unification War the Earth Supremacist faction Lactence used Macross 13 as a backup for command and control of Earth's defense grid. It was destroyed during the battle over Earth.

Battle 13 was mentioned in novelizations by Kodachi Ukyo. Either it was defending Earth during Grace' Galaxy wide invasion in the TV adaptation or is the command ship of the reinforcements to Frontier in the Movie continuity. It is under command of the former SDF-1 Bridge Operator now Lt. General Kim Kabirov. Guess she went out of retirement. According to Macross 7 Docking Festival Kim retired at the rank of Colonel on Eden in the 2040's. 

 

Battle Astrea in Macross Delta Zettai Live was under a anti-unification group. Interesting it has 21 on its deck. Which begs the question is this a refurbished and heavily modified Battle 21? Or does it wear 21 as a mark of rebellion?

 

[Keith]

I'm just kind of amazed that humans both descended & or cloned from SW I survivors are perpetuating the same old B.S. that got the Macross banished from Earth as a sacrificial lamb. I'm not saying it's unbelievable, just that humanity is damn lucky the AFOS didn't stomp it out.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Keith

[Seto Kaiba]

13 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Speaks to the intended power of a Battle-class; several of those could wreak major damage on an enemy.

Oh, just one could do some pretty significant damage... a Macross Cannon with several times the firepower of a typical super dimension energy cannon, a half-dozen or so super-large scale beam cannon turrets, innumerable smaller gun emplacements, hundreds of Valkyries, and thermonuclear reaction munitions make your typical Battle-class ship into a almost-literal fortress.

 

13 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I've read where they have some of those serving without being attached to a colony fleet (part of battle groups and whatnot).

Macross 13 is the only one that's been explicitly mentioned in connection with the New UN Forces... the "secret" flagship of the Earth defense fleet that was sunk in 2051 after the Earth supremacist movement Latence hijacked it.  A replacement Macross 13 was subsequently built and in 2059 was under the command of Lt. General Kim Kabirov during the Vajra attack at the end of Macross Frontier.

 

11 hours ago, RedWolf said:

From what I get the bis in Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis, Octos bis, and Neo Glaug bis means Custom.

It's basically the Zentradi equivalent of the suffix 改 (kai, "revision", "modification", "improvement"), often translated into English as "custom".

 

11 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Battle Astrea in Macross Delta Zettai Live was under a anti-unification group. Interesting it has 21 on its deck. Which begs the question is this a refurbished and heavily modified Battle 21? Or does it wear 21 as a mark of rebellion?

Heimdall doesn't really fit the definition of anti-unification group.  From what we've heard of their motives, they're not opposed to the government at all... they seem to be some kind of paramilitary conspiracy theorist group who are trying to protect the New UN Gov't from outside influence by some sort of Luddite deep state.

 

9 hours ago, Keith said:

I'm just kind of amazed that humans both descended & or cloned from SW I survivors are perpetuating the same old B.S. that got the Macross banished from Earth as a sacrificial lamb. I'm not saying it's unbelievable, just that humanity is damn lucky the AFOS didn't stomp it out.

Really, they're not... for the most part anyway.

The Anti-Unification Alliance of the Unification Wars was a loose confederation of various nationalist militias, terrorist groups, plausibly deniable state actors, and other small time troublemakers who were looking to settle old scores, continue their lifestyle of ethnic or sectarian violence, or paranoids who thought a world government would mean the end of their lifestyle or regional autonomy.

Many of the so-called "anti-government" groups of the 2030s and 2040s were actually anti-fascist groups who'd taken up arms in response to a cabal of Earth supremacist fascists inside the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces using their influence to label anyone who complained about their efforts to concentrate governmental and military authority on Earth or the problems inherent in the central government's efforts to micromanage the rule of emigrant planets that were years away by space fold as a terrorist.  The "big reveal" of the plot of Macross VF-X2 was that Latence had so thoroughly infiltrated the New UN Gov't and New UN Forces that they were wielding the Spacy's VF-X Special Forces as their own secret police force to stop out opposition to their agenda.  Whether or not the player learns that is what decides if they get the Bad End or the True End, the latter of which has the VF-X Ravens join forces with the "terrorist" group Vindirance to stop a planned coup d'etat by Latence.

Basically, the so-called Second Unification War was fought between two pro-Unification factions who just had different ideas about the amount of autonomy that was necessary for emigrant governments to function effectively.  One side believed that all of humanity should present a united front concentrated on Earth to protect itself from a fundamentally hostile universe, and the other believed that emigrant governments should have the ability to make their own decisions on how best to protect and support their people without a need to refer every decision up the chain of command to Earth for approval.  The latter faction won handily.  Even after that point, the most prominent anti-government faction in the story is still a pro-Unification group that's simply the leftovers of the former faction.

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Heimdall doesn't really fit the definition of anti-unification group.  From what we've heard of their motives, they're not opposed to the government at all... they seem to be some kind of paramilitary conspiracy theorist group who are trying to protect the New UN Gov't from outside influence by some sort of Luddite deep state.

Anti-unification  group in the sense Heimdall is basically a rebellion. Sure nobody likes the Windies but the NUNG just made an armistice treaty with them. Cromwell basically believed the NUN abandoned his home due to its anti-AI and anti-cyborg policies. So he is lashing out at who he believes is the source of his misery. Probably one of those that think the Sharon Apple Incident and Macross Galaxy threatening the galaxy with Vajra were faked news. And in-setting fake news has been weaponized by Lactence in attacking frontier planets. 

 

11 hours ago, Keith said:

I'm just kind of amazed that humans both descended & or cloned from SW I survivors are perpetuating the same old B.S. that got the Macross banished from Earth as a sacrificial lamb. I'm not saying it's unbelievable, just that humanity is damn lucky the AFOS didn't stomp it out.

The Macross was exiled as a self preservation measure by the UN Government. It also lied about what happened to South Ataria in a cover up. I remember Exsedol proposing that the Macross and their Zentradi allies run as far away as they can to at least preserve a portion of Terran culture. The crew chose to stand and fight for Earth. It is Pryrric victory that most of humanity did not survive. It had repercussions for the future. It led to the policy of spreading Terrans across the galaxy so even if Earth was lost Humanity will survive and thrive. Ushio Todo tried to get back in time to prevent that using technology the Protoculture themselves balked in using. 

 

Macross 7 was abandoned to its fate by Earth in facing the Protodevlin and Meltrandi. No guessing why it is rumored Max was Pro-decentralization faction supporter of Vindirance. Not to mention his daughter was leader of it.

 

The Galaxy Treaty does stipulate nearby fleets help each other in emergencies. In the TV series Frontier sent a rescue force to save Macross Galaxy when they sent a call for help. It was a trick, Galaxy Mainland was fine. In the False Songstress Frontier government refused to send reinforcements as Macross Galaxy is seen as a pariah state. Sheryl had to hire SMS's services. Frontier's choices were either invade the Vajra home planet or call the mission a failure thus asking Earth or NUNG for assistance resulting in them losing autonomy. 

Earth however is caught in  red tape. It can't send out its forces as reinforcements without the NUNG Parliament getting enough votes. In the Frontier TV Series SMS sent a call for assistance but the due to distances and Fokd  Faults a response would be too late. In Wings of Goodbye NUNS and SMS from various fleets came as reinforcements. 

The Brisngr Globular Cluster is the farthest from Earth. The NUNG does not have that big of a presence in the region. NUNS took its sweet time sending a fleet. Part politics part equipping it with Fold Jammers so they won't be brainwashed.

 

[pengbuzz]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, just one could do some pretty significant damage... a Macross Cannon with several times the firepower of a typical super dimension energy cannon, a half-dozen or so super-large scale beam cannon turrets, innumerable smaller gun emplacements, hundreds of Valkyries, and thermonuclear reaction munitions make your typical Battle-class ship into a almost-literal fortress.

I was thinking was several could do to a planet? (Y'know...got weird hobbies here )

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross 13 is the only one that's been explicitly mentioned in connection with the New UN Forces... the "secret" flagship of the Earth defense fleet that was sunk in 2051 after the Earth supremacist movement Latence hijacked it.  A replacement Macross 13 was subsequently built and in 2059 was under the command of Lt. General Kim Kabirov during the Vajra attack at the end of Macross Frontier.

Okay, I found where I got my info from:

Quote

The performance of the New Macross battle sections has been so impressive that the UN Spacy has constructed a few of the battle carriers individually (without the city sections) to serve as command ships for all-military space fleets.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20071010095624/http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/macross7.shtml

I'm going to assume from what you told me that the info here is probably just something made up for the description here.

Edited December 19, 2021 by pengbuzz

[JB0]

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Probably one of those that think the Sharon Apple Incident and Macross Galaxy threatening the galaxy with Vajra were faked news. And in-setting fake news has been weaponized by Lactence in attacking frontier planets. 

In fairness, "a computer AI pop star brainwashed the planet and hacked the defense network" and "a colony fleet full of cyborg puppets tried to conquer the galaxy with giant teleporting lobsters" SOUND like  ridiculous conspiracy theories. 

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Anti-unification  group in the sense Heimdall is basically a rebellion.

Against who?  Lady M isn't the government, as much as she'd apparently like to believe otherwise.

By all accounts, Heimdall's goal is to protect the New UN Government from Lady M... which, given the end result of her meddling in the Windermere situation, honestly sounds like a pretty good idea IMO.

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Probably one of those that think the Sharon Apple Incident and Macross Galaxy threatening the galaxy with Vajra were faked news. And in-setting fake news has been weaponized by Lactence in attacking frontier planets. 

Unlikely, IMO... given that the Sharon Apple incident's coverup was pretty paper-thin, with the New UN Government even going so far as to legislate Sharon's music off the market for several years and issue a total ban on self-aware virtuoids.  Likewise, Heimdall's Battle Astraea appears to be a reconstruction of the Battle Galaxy that was destroyed either in a fight against the Vajra or against the Battle Frontier... five'll get you twenty they KNOW why she got destroyed.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I'm going to assume from what you told me that the info here is probably just something made up for the description here.

Yeah, there hasn't been much in the way of mention of Battle-class ships operating outside of emigrant fleets.

 

55 minutes ago, JB0 said:

In fairness, "a computer AI pop star brainwashed the planet and hacked the defense network" and "a colony fleet full of cyborg puppets tried to conquer the galaxy with giant teleporting lobsters" SOUND like  ridiculous conspiracy theories. 

It's a bit less ridiculous-sounding in context, though.  The New UN Government may have covered up the Macross Concern's role in the whole mess, but they still had to explain the whole mess and that resulted in a ban on self-aware virtuoids and a ban on Sharon Apple's music, not to mention a mess of cancelled defense contracts.  The Sharon Apple incident was what poisoned the well for unmanned fighters and saw the Ghost relegated to a support unit for manned Valkyries.  Not to mention the New UN Gov't is almost certainly going to have to issue a public condemnation of Galaxy's actions against the Vajra, given that they flagrantly flouted interstellar law, started a shooting war with their neighbors and with an alien race, and technically attacked Earth itself by proxy.

[RedWolf]

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

but they still had to explain the whole mess and that resulted in a ban on self-aware virtuoids

My take on this is that AI architecture similar to Sharon Apple is shackled like with Luca's Ghost trio but AI still had other avenues such as Cyberoids. El in Macross Musiculture was an abandoned android that was reactivated. And Heimdall uses Combat Androids going by the pamphlet info. This is why people can't have nice things.

 

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Unlikely, IMO... given that the Sharon Apple incident's coverup was pretty paper-thin,

What was covered up is the YF-19 and YF-22 waltzing through Earth's thick defense grid. As per the VF-X2 briefing by Maria Fokina Barnrose.

 

17 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

By all accounts, Heimdall's goal is to protect the New UN Government from Lady M... which, given the end result of her meddling in the Windermere situation, honestly sounds like a pretty good idea IMO.

Heimdall is basically a rogue actor like Havamal. Difference is Havamal at least had official authority as a Special Forces unit. From what we know of Heimdall personnel is former NUNS. In fact scratch that Heimdall has more in common with Fasces that commits terrorism with a political goal and is unconnected to NUNS or NUNG.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

My take on this is that AI architecture similar to Sharon Apple is shackled like with Luca's Ghost trio but AI still had other avenues such as Cyberoids. El in Macross Musiculture was an abandoned android that was reactivated. And Heimdall uses Combat Androids going by the pamphlet info. This is why people can't have nice things.

As I understand it, the New UN Government banned self-aware AI entirely and imposed severe restrictions on the operation of fully-autonomous unmanned fighters comparable to restrictions on the use of nuclear weapons.

The hardware that enabled Sharon Apple to do what she did was already illegal before the Sharon Apple incident.  Afterwards, the interactive functions used in Sharon Apple were banned right down to the level of policing the contents of her studio albums.  The autonomous air combat programs used in unmanned fighters like the Ghost X-9 were restricted to emergency use only and while there is research being done on personality emulation similar to what was used in Sharon Apple it seems to be being done using a conventional computing environment instead of anything that could produce an unpredictable AI.

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

What was covered up is the YF-19 and YF-22 waltzing through Earth's thick defense grid. As per the VF-X2 briefing by Maria Fokina Barnrose.

They covered up some other stuff too... illegal developments being made by the Macross Concern and all...

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Heimdall is basically a rogue actor like Havamal. Difference is Havamal at least had official authority as a Special Forces unit. From what we know of Heimdall personnel is former NUNS. In fact scratch that Heimdall has more in common with Fasces that commits terrorism with a political goal and is unconnected to NUNS or NUNG.

Nah, the difference is more severe than that.

Havamal exercised its authority as a VF-X Special Forces unit to subvert the government on Uroboros to its own ends, and wreaked havoc on the planet.

Heimdall, on the other hand, is a non-governmental paramilitary organization made up of ex-military and civilian types that is only interested in going after another "rogue actor"... Lady M.  They don't appear to pose an actual threat to anyone.

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's a bit less ridiculous-sounding in context, though.  The New UN Government may have covered up the Macross Concern's role in the whole mess, but they still had to explain the whole mess and that resulted in a ban on self-aware virtuoids and a ban on Sharon Apple's music, not to mention a mess of cancelled defense contracts.  The Sharon Apple incident was what poisoned the well for unmanned fighters and saw the Ghost relegated to a support unit for manned Valkyries.  Not to mention the New UN Gov't is almost certainly going to have to issue a public condemnation of Galaxy's actions against the Vajra, given that they flagrantly flouted interstellar law, started a shooting war with their neighbors and with an alien race, and technically attacked Earth itself by proxy.

Does that mean then that for all intents and purposes, Galaxy as a fleet is pretty much disowned by the New UN Gov't?? Or would they seek to rein them in and bring them back in  line?

  

3 hours ago, RedWolf said:

What was covered up is the YF-19 and YF-22 waltzing through Earth's thick defense grid. As per the VF-X2 briefing by Maria Fokina Barnrose.

I would venture that the defense grid is geared more towards repelling ships rather than fighter craft. Keep in mind that in Space War 1, the damage done to earth was from Zentraedi Warships firing on the planet: with the focus on that, it would be considerably easier for small one-man fighter craft to penetrate than the larger carrier/ assault ships.

Edited December 20, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

49 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Does that mean then that for all intents and purposes, Galaxy as a fleet is pretty much disowned by the New UN Gov't?? Or would they seek to rein them in and bring them back in  line?

I guess that would depend on whether future works consider the Macross Frontier TV series or Movies to be the "correct" version.

In the TV series, Battle Galaxy and a fair portion of the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army were destroyed but the Macross Galaxy fleet's Mainland and at least some of its forces weren't present and survived.  Odds are in that case the New UN Gov't probably considers Macross Galaxy a rogue state or possibly an occupied one since the Macross Galaxy citizenry aren't exactly on board with the whole galactic domination plan willingly.

In the movie version, the Vajra almost completely destroyed the Macross Galaxy fleet and only a dozen or so ships carrying refugees (and the Galaxy Executives) were able to flee the battle and take refuge in the Macross Frontier fleet... where they later seized control of Battle Frontier under mind control and were largely wiped out.  In that case, Macross Galaxy is likely filed under "solved problems".

 

49 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

I would venture that the defense grid is geared more towards repelling ships rather than fighter craft. Keep in mind that in Space War 1, the damage done to earth was from Zentraedi Warships firing on the planet: with the focus on that, it would be considerably easier for small one-man fighter craft to penetrate than the larger carrier/ assault ships.

It's more a matter of the fact that the grid proved almost totally ineffective against them... the YF-19 and YF-21 proved to be a little too good at what they were designed to do, and so the New UN Government got REAL anxious about the prospect of weapons like that ending up in the hands of anti-government (or "anti-government") forces.

[RaisingCane]

On 12/18/2021 at 10:15 PM, RedWolf said:

From what I get the bis in Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis, Octos bis, and Neo Glaug bis means Custom.

The actual definition of bis is again or twice.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis

Sounds like it's just a fancy way of calling it the New Nupetiet-Vergnitzs II.

Does the NUNS still use destroids (aside from the König Monster, which I'm not even sure qualifies)?

Edited December 20, 2021 by RaisingCane

[RedWolf]

7 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Does the NUNS still use destroids (aside from the König Monster, which I'm not even sure qualifies)?

Macross Frontier and Al Shahal both use the Cheyenne II. During Macross the Ride Macross Galaxy Corporate Army had the Phalanx and the Super Defender. Macross 7 treats Destroids as museum pieces. Those Monster II pilots who looked awesome when they were young are now retired geezers trying to relive their glory. Meanwhile in Macross Plus the Monster II was used as target practice for the AVF's heavier weapons. The Octos bis was mentioned in the Wings of Goodbye novelization during the Alcatraz breakout. 

 

The VB-6 Konig Monster is a mobile artillery piece. Max had one modified for Sound Force in Macross 7th Chord, the Konig Orgel. The VA-3 Invader is considered to have a Destroid mode rather than a Battroid mode.

Edited December 20, 2021 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

43 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

The actual definition of bis is again or twice.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bis

Y'know... now it's my turn to feel a bit silly.  I'm so used to only seeing it used with Zentradi mecha (or written in Cyrillic) that I'd completely forgotten it's a real goddamn word. 😅

(It's especially terrible on my part because it's Latin, and I had four years of Latin in school... formal Imperial Latin rather than the watered down churchy stuff, but still.)

Kind of ended up right for the wrong reason as its (predominantly Russian) usage in aviation is as I described... it denotes an improved/modified model that is listed again under the same designation as its original specification.  It is functionally equivalent to 改.

 

43 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Does the NUNS still use destroids (aside from the König Monster, which I'm not even sure qualifies)?

So, yes and no.

The VB-6 Koenig Monster is not a Destroid, it's a Variable Bomber.

For the most part, the New UN Forces stopped using Destroids somewhere in the 2020s or 2030s and most of the inventory that hadn't shipped out with one emigrant fleet or another ended up decommissioned, stripped of its weaponry, and either sold off to civilians for use as heavy industrial equipment (see Macross 7) or converted for use as a live fire test target (see Macross Plus).

Development of Destroids basically dried up and died around that time.  There were a few bizarre attempts to revive the concept that found their way into the hands of paramilitary organizations like Vindirance or Black Rainbow, but it'd be hard to call either a "destroid" and they're lumped under the generously vague term "mobile weapon".  The Gjagravan Va was, in concept, analogous to a Destroid though instead of a bipedal humanoid form it was built like a water strider and got around on four legs.  The Annabella Lasiodora was... well... more a small frigate with arms than anything.  There basically hasn't been a new "true" Destroid design in about 50 years by the time of Macross Frontier, or almost 60 by the time of Macross Delta.  

Some emigrant fleets did revive the Destroid concept somewhat by purchasing a modernized version of the old ADR-03 Cheyenne series Destroid as a mobile AA gun for use inside of environment ships.  Of all the strange things, the rollers in the feet seem to have been the major selling point because it meant the Destroid wouldn't rip up the pavement trying to get around.  (No really, that's the actual reason given.)  The Macross Galaxy fleet did some toying around with modernizing the Series 04 Destroids (the Tomahawk, Phalanx, and Spartan) c.2058 in the light novel Macross the Ride, as well as some of General Galaxy's older VF lines, with mixed results.  Those designs don't seem to have caught on outside the Galaxy fleet though, while the so-called "Cheyenne II" seems to have had at least some acceptance elsewhere in the galaxy like the perpetually cash-strapped Brisingr Alliance.  It's probably also worth noting that quite a few of the Cheyenne II units seen in Macross Frontier were not manned... the ones used aboard the SMS Macross Quarter were remotely operated, making them excessively expensive gun turrets.  (Which was, ironically, the reason Destroids fell out of favor... the Zentradi don't do ground warfare if they can help it and conventional point-defense weapons are way cheaper.)

 

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

The VA-3 Invader is considered to have a Destroid mode rather than a Battroid mode.

You're probably thinking of the VB-6 here... the VA-3's Battroid mode has always been referred to as a Battroid mode, though the Koenig Monster's has been called Destroid mode officially.

[RedWolf]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You're probably thinking of the VB-6 here... the VA-3's Battroid mode has always been referred to as a Battroid mode, though the Koenig Monster's has been called Destroid mode officially.

Wait... Rechecks.... Ok I got confused a bit. The VA-3 Invader Attacker mode has more in common with a Destroid. (Macross Chronicle Mechanic: D7 Etc 02B VA-3CKai Invader Kai)

Also Macross Galaxy has the VA-3M Invader in its arsenal.

 

One thing you can say about Macross II it didn't skip on new Destroids. 

 

At least NUNS affiliated Battle Pods got upgraded. With the Type-104 and Type-106 Regults and the Super Glaug. Though the Neo Glaug bis is also a thing. There is also the Qudadluun series of Battle Suit.

[Bolt]

Oh well. I guess we'll never get our gritty war drama with destroids..🥺

 

😜

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Also Macross Galaxy has the VA-3M Invader in its arsenal.

I'd expect a fair few fleets are still using the VA-3 Invader... there really hasn't been a replacement mentioned, and as a 3rd Generation design like the VB-6 it isn't that old yet.

(Though in the light novels, the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army has a bit of a thing for fielding modernized versions of obsolete General Galaxy designs.)

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

One thing you can say about Macross II it didn't skip on new Destroids. 

True, though that setting's development was very different.

 

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

At least NUNS affiliated Battle Pods got upgraded. With the Type-104 and Type-106 Regults and the Super Glaug. Though the Neo Glaug bis is also a thing. There is also the Qudadluun series of Battle Suit.

Yeah, though a fair amount of that wasn't so much the need for performance improvement as an attempt to address the hilariously awful survivablity of Zentradi mecha in general, and to a lesser extent the atrocious ergonomics of their design.

[RaisingCane]

Is it generally assumed that the SA has automated factories and cloning facilities of their own?  Half a million years of attrition seems like it would have whittled them down to almost nothing if they didn't have some way of replacing their losses.

[Seto Kaiba]

53 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Is it generally assumed that the SA has automated factories and cloning facilities of their own?  Half a million years of attrition seems like it would have whittled them down to almost nothing if they didn't have some way of replacing their losses.

It's a safe bet that they do... the Supervision Army was made up of Protoculture and their Zentradi forces who fell under the sway of the Protodeviln, so the logistical arm of those Zentradi fleets would've fallen to them as well.  We know from Macross the Ride that even after being sealed for 500,000 years the Protodeviln were able to use at least one of the factory satellites they'd obtained to support the captured New UN Forces troops in the Varauta system.  (The so-called "Protodeviln Heritage" facility that Fasces was using c.2058.)

[RedWolf]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, though a fair amount of that wasn't so much the need for performance improvement as an attempt to address the hilariously awful survivablity of Zentradi mecha in general, and to a lesser extent the atrocious ergonomics of their design.

There is a reason why the Protoculture chose to keep Zentradi education at elementary level. Give them proper education not only can they maintain their gear but build their own. The cultured and educated Zentradi can spread their knowhow to their uncontaminated brethren.The Variable Glaug was made studying the VF-4. The Feios Valkyrie got UNS worried as it was basically a 4th generation equivalent after mutineer engineers brought with them the YF-11/VFX-11, a 3rd generation VF,  to Zentradi. There is also that combiner Battle Suit in Macross M3 made up of an Air Battle Pod and two drones. Macross VF-X2 had the Gjagravan Va land weapon. There is also that Battle Suit in Macross Plus OVA beginning. Macross VF-X had those upgraded Regults and Glaugs with Stealth features. As well as this ship. 

Anybody got a name for it?

 

 

[sketchley]

39 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Anybody got a name for it?

 

 

Stealth Kerukaria [Quel-Quallie] Reconnaissance Pod

 

The other new Zentrādi mecha in Macross Digital Mission VF-X are officially called (stuff in square brackets [ ] is, apparently, the nickname or common name):

• Gurāji Kai [aka Stealth Glaug]
• Fighter Pod Kai [aka Stealth Fighter Pod]
• Rigādo Kai [aka Stealth Regult]

Edited December 21, 2021 by sketchley

[pengbuzz]

39 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

There is a reason why the Protoculture chose to keep Zentradi education at elementary level. Give them proper education not only can they maintain their gear but build their own. The cultured and educated Zentradi can spread their knowhow to their uncontaminated brethren.The Variable Glaug was made studying the VF-4. The Feios Valkyrie got UNS worried as it was basically a 4th generation equivalent after mutineer engineers brought with them the YF-11/VFX-11, a 3rd generation VF,  to Zentradi. There is also that combiner Battle Suit in Macross M3 made up of an Air Battle Pod and two drones. Macross VF-X2 had the Gjagravan Va land weapon. There is also that Battle Suit in Macross Plus OVA beginning. Macross VF-X had those upgraded Regults and Glaugs with Stealth features. As well as this ship. 

Anybody got a name for it?

 

 

Not to mention that it was a Zentraedi (Guld Goa Bowman) who was both a designer and test pilot with the YF-21 project (presumably among other Zentraedi). Zentraedi aren't stupid by any means, and given the right tools and training, are very innovative and resourceful.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by pengbuzz

[RaisingCane]

Did Chlore and her forces end up joining the Macross 7 fleet?

[JB0]

15 hours ago, Bolt said:

Oh well. I guess we'll never get our gritty war drama with destroids..🥺

 

😜

Some day... some day.

[RedWolf]

6 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Not to mention that it was a Zentraedi (Guld Goa Bowman) who was both a designer and test pilot with the YF-21 project (presumably among other Zentraedi). Zentraedi aren't stupid by any means, and given the right tools and training, are very innovative and resourceful.

 

Algus Selzer was a damn success story. After finishing his education he joined General Galaxy and became one of its lead designers. Having a hand with the VF-9, VF-17, and the YF-21/VF-22. Incorporating Zentradi technology like the Inertial Vector Control System, the precursor to the Inertia Store Converter, to AVF.

 

3 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Did Chlore and her forces end up joining the Macross 7 fleet?

Well we can presume they at least made a treaty at least. Macross 7 encountered Chlore's fleet during the Varauta War. So no they are not part if that fleet. I only imagine the political nightmare of Earth with that scenario.

I always had a suspicion that the Meltrandi ships that made up the Vindirance fleet came from Chlore. According to Macross Chronicle Glossary Therese Jenius is the real name of Maria Fokina Barnrose. The Glossary also said it is rumored Maximillian Jenius supported Vindirance. Rather than attack the Meltrandi as ordered by Earth brass Max tried to negotiate. Earth is giving Max near impossible orders to deal with threat with zero support from them for both the Protodevlin and Meltrandi. I can see why he became Pro-decentralization. As those on Earth are out of touch with situations out there.