The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

3 minutes ago, valk1j said:

Did the VF-22 Masterfile state a missile payload for it? Or do we still have no idea on what all the pallets on it can hold?

Eh... sort of?

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II is one of the more "out there" installments in the series.  For the internal micro-missile launchers, it shows a very different missile from the one seen in the animation and asserts the VF-22 carries a whopping 160 of them (40 per launcher!).  It asserts that this massive quantity of micro-missiles is the B-21A pallet that's mentioned in the official spec.  It also mentions that the VF-22 enlarged and structurally reinforced the cover panel over the bay holding the legs so that it could accommodate missile payloads, which the book asserts can be two RMS-5 reaction missiles or four high-maneuver missiles.

(Though this differs from what was shown in Macross 7, where one of the gunpod bays opens to deploy a reaction missile.)

[valk1j]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eh... sort of?

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II is one of the more "out there" installments in the series.  For the internal micro-missile launchers, it shows a very different missile from the one seen in the animation and asserts the VF-22 carries a whopping 160 of them (40 per launcher!).  It asserts that this massive quantity of micro-missiles is the B-21A pallet that's mentioned in the official spec.  It also mentions that the VF-22 enlarged and structurally reinforced the cover panel over the bay holding the legs so that it could accommodate missile payloads, which the book asserts can be two RMS-5 reaction missiles or four high-maneuver missiles.

(Though this differs from what was shown in Macross 7, where one of the gunpod bays opens to deploy a reaction missile.)

Wow...just wow. The YF-21 has art of a micro missiles being loaded but it is near impossible to get a count. My assumption was that the VF-22 would carry the same amount. Wonder if the B-21A can be switched out for a more standard micro missile...some wording out there seems like that is likely. 160 micromissiles sounds like they fold into existence...lol...thanks for the info.

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, valk1j said:

Wow...just wow. The YF-21 has art of a micro missiles being loaded but it is near impossible to get a count. My assumption was that the VF-22 would carry the same amount. Wonder if the B-21A can be switched out for a more standard micro missile...some wording out there seems like that is likely. 160 micromissiles sounds like they fold into existence...lol...thanks for the info.

Yeah, a few of the Master File books go to some odd places and come up with some very strange things that definitely are not in (or outright contradict) the official specs and shows.  The VF-22, VF-31, and VF-4 books are the three worst offenders there.

I'd assume the correct pallet count probably holds a number closer to what the VF-19's do.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[Harri]

What happened to Aegis Focker and VF-X Ravens after the Macross 13 incident? What were they doing during the Vajra war?

[sketchley]

6 hours ago, valk1j said:

Wow...just wow. The YF-21 has art of a micro missiles being loaded but it is near impossible to get a count. My assumption was that the VF-22 would carry the same amount. Wonder if the B-21A can be switched out for a more standard micro missile...some wording out there seems like that is likely. 160 micromissiles sounds like they fold into existence...lol...thanks for the info.

Keep in mind that that publisher treats those micro-missile launchers as two- or three-ports in the front, and the rest is rows upon rows of missiles.  Nevermind the mechanism to transfer the missiles from the "stowed" position to the "firing" position at the port.

They gave the VF-25's FAST Packs the same treatment...

It should also be noted that the B-21A Pallet are the tapered triangle things on the belly of the VF-22 (etc.)  It appears that they can be loaded with either a gun pod or micro-missiles.  So, that's the obscene 160 MM, or a more reasonable amount (?equivalent to what's in the wing MM launchers?) AND a gun pod.

 

RPGers have speculated that there are up to 12 micro-missiles in each launcher, giving the VF-22 4x12 (wings) +4x12 (pallets) [96 total].  It's a rather large amount, but as the YF-21/VF-22 is based on the Quadoran-Ro (officially has 126 missiles), it's not exactly an unprecedented development in Macross...

※ if memory serves, the magic number of 12 comes from the VF-1's Super Packs.  Something officially released, so it's also not something pulled out of thin air (like the VFMF publishers apparently did ).

[pengbuzz]

50 minutes ago, sketchley said:

Keep in mind that that publisher treats those micro-missile launchers as two- or three-ports in the front, and the rest is rows upon rows of missiles.  Nevermind the mechanism to transfer the missiles from the "stowed" position to the "firing" position at the port.

They gave the VF-25's FAST Packs the same treatment...

It should also be noted that the B-21A Pallet are the tapered triangle things on the belly of the VF-22 (etc.)  It appears that they can be loaded with either a gun pod or micro-missiles.  So, that's the obscene 160 MM, or a more reasonable amount (?equivalent to what's in the wing MM launchers?) AND a gun pod.

 

RPGers have speculated that there are up to 12 micro-missiles in each launcher, giving the VF-22 4x12 (wings) +4x12 (pallets) [96 total].  It's a rather large amount, but as the YF-21/VF-22 is based on the Quadoran-Ro (officially has 126 missiles), it's not exactly an unprecedented development in Macross...

※ if memory serves, the magic number of 12 comes from the VF-1's Super Packs.  Something officially released, so it's also not something pulled out of thin air (like the VFMF publishers apparently did ).

When Seto Kaiba examined my self-produced Variable fighter kitbash, he and I had a discussion about how quickly things can get cramped when you start trying to get missiles and a gunpod in the same space at the same time. In addition to the transfer and launch mechanisms for the missiles, you need telemetry feeds to them to get data prior to launch (part of the launch mechanism, admittedly), systems to handle the exhaust gases from firing the missiles (so they don't get inadvertently vented into a pylon or strut and burn a wing off or a hole through the fuselage), braces and data/ control links for the gunpod(s) to fire from within the craft, launch/recovery mechanisms for said gunpod,etc. So even with an external pallet, it still has to maintain aerodynamic profiles, structural integrity in attaching to the craft, not get in the way of the transformation, and be jettisonable when needed.

That's a lot of stuff to cram in, in addition to the missiles and gun pod(s), internal or otherwise.

[RedWolf]

20 hours ago, Harri said:

What happened to Aegis Focker and VF-X Ravens after the Macross 13 incident? What were they doing during the Vajra war?

Aegis now a Colonel in command of the VF-X Ravens aboard the Uruga class Gilliam Angreat under the Barnrose Agency helped Ozma and SMS investigate the conspiracy behind the Vajra. Aegis was Ozma's senior and was also mentored by Jeffrey Wilder. His squadron is made of the VF-19A, VF-19P and VF-22.

Aegis Fokker was not the only VF-X2 character that returned but also Manfred Brando, CEO of Critical Path Corporation. Manfred sponsored the 117th Research Fleet. He is the one that saved and recruited Grace for the Galaxy conspiracy or Cyber Nobles. He is also why Ozma got kicked out of NUNS. Ozma punched him for mistreating Ranka. While Aegis did kill him in VF-X2 he survived as an AI copy with Galaxy. He fought Ozma in the final battle as a red VF-22 customized with the Sound Jamming System and ISC.

Edited May 31, 2021 by RedWolf
Correction

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

When Seto Kaiba examined my self-produced Variable fighter kitbash, he and I had a discussion about how quickly things can get cramped when you start trying to get missiles and a gunpod in the same space at the same time. In addition to the transfer and launch mechanisms for the missiles, you need telemetry feeds to them to get data prior to launch (part of the launch mechanism, admittedly), systems to handle the exhaust gases from firing the missiles (so they don't get inadvertently vented into a pylon or strut and burn a wing off or a hole through the fuselage), braces and data/ control links for the gunpod(s) to fire from within the craft, launch/recovery mechanisms for said gunpod,etc. So even with an external pallet, it still has to maintain aerodynamic profiles, structural integrity in attaching to the craft, not get in the way of the transformation, and be jettisonable when needed.

That's a lot of stuff to cram in, in addition to the missiles and gun pod(s), internal or otherwise.

I'm not disagreeing.  However, official sources state that there are both micro-missiles and gun pods in there.

Just like the wing-root MM launchers, I suspect that there's more than a bit of anime-magic going on.  Heck, one can argue that the people behind Macross have always been playing fast and loose with MM launchers and how many missiles they can dish out.  They're almost like the unlimited ammo clips® seen in live-action action movies!

[Harri]

4 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Aegis now a Colonel in command of the VF-X Ravens

Are Suzie and Syun still part of the Ravens?

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

 His squadron is made of the VF-19S, VF-19P and VF-22.

We know Aegis was a master of every Valkyrie, but what does he canonically fly, or his most iconic craft?

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Manfred Brando, CEO of Critical Path Corporation. Manfred sponsored the 117th Research Fleet. He is the one that saved and recruited Grace for the Galaxy conspiracy or Cyber Nobles. 

Is he one of the disbodied voices in Grace's head? And when you said final battle, were you talking about the one above the Vajra homeworld?

 

Thanks for the answers.

[valk1j]

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

Keep in mind that that publisher treats those micro-missile launchers as two- or three-ports in the front, and the rest is rows upon rows of missiles.  Nevermind the mechanism to transfer the missiles from the "stowed" position to the "firing" position at the port.

They gave the VF-25's FAST Packs the same treatment...

It should also be noted that the B-21A Pallet are the tapered triangle things on the belly of the VF-22 (etc.)  It appears that they can be loaded with either a gun pod or micro-missiles.  So, that's the obscene 160 MM, or a more reasonable amount (?equivalent to what's in the wing MM launchers?) AND a gun pod.

 

RPGers have speculated that there are up to 12 micro-missiles in each launcher, giving the VF-22 4x12 (wings) +4x12 (pallets) [96 total].  It's a rather large amount, but as the YF-21/VF-22 is based on the Quadoran-Ro (officially has 126 missiles), it's not exactly an unprecedented development in Macross...

※ if memory serves, the magic number of 12 comes from the VF-1's Super Packs.  Something officially released, so it's also not something pulled out of thin air (like the VFMF publishers apparently did ).

Ahhh...working on my RPG for Macross 5E. Finished up the character rules and mecha combat...just having issues with some of the mecha and payloads. One of the players wants to fly a 17 the other a 22. Not a lot of info on either fighter payloads. Think I will just go with your pallet system from your site Sketchley.

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, Harri said:

Are Suzie and Syun still part of the Ravens?

We know Aegis was a master of every Valkyrie, but what does he canonically fly, or his most iconic craft?

Is he one of the disbodied voices in Grace's head? And when you said final battle, were you talking about the one above the Vajra homeworld?

 

Thanks for the answers.

1. Suzie wasn't mentioned in the Japanese wiki source read so I don't know. Syun is dead as he never defected to Vindirance. Got killed in a dogfight with Aegis.

2. Canonicaly the Hasegawa VF-19A is Aegis Fokker's unit.

3. Manfred is not the Old Man, Young Man, and Young Woman talking to Grace but he is part of the hivemind. When he was alive Manfred was researching a means of uploading his consciousness to a computer. The whole Galactic Parallel Thinking Network was Grace's idea which Galaxy co-opted.

4. The events are in the Macross F TV novelization by Kodachi Ukyo. He is the Macross literature expert that keeps lore consistent for Macross Frontier and Macross Delta. Cause as Shoji Kawamori does not remember everything. The final battle was on the Vajra homeworld.

 

The events of Macross VF-X2 is referred to as the Second Unification War in-universe. Despite being not an anime it's impact is felt in the franchise.

Macross the Ride has Fasces as a Lactence remnant and the planet Cachew in a state of civil war between Lactence aligned UN Spacy and local NUNS. Fasces has the Protodevlin Heritage factory satellite which can produce armaments like the Vajra do making their own bullets drawing energy from Subspace. Fasces leader Naresuan learned it's existence in a infiltration mission during Operation Stargazer. Would be SMS pilot Chelsea Scarlett as a child was experimented upon by  the Protodevlin and became key to activating it having a similar Spiritia as them, Spiritia Sophia.

Also as per the Macross Delta shorts and novelization Ernest Johnson and Gramia VI were at opposite sides of the Second Unification War. Ernest Johnson both worked for the Zentradi Anti-UN group Black Rainbow and the Earth Supremacist faction Lactence. Thus dubbed the King of a hundred battles and a hundred losses. Gramia VI volunteered as a pilot for Vindirance.

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by RedWolf
Spelling

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

They gave the VF-25's FAST Packs the same treatment...

Yeah, but least there it was justified by available internal volume.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

It should also be noted that the B-21A Pallet are the tapered triangle things on the belly of the VF-22 (etc.)  It appears that they can be loaded with either a gun pod or micro-missiles.  So, that's the obscene 160 MM, or a more reasonable amount (?equivalent to what's in the wing MM launchers?) AND a gun pod.

Eh... the Master File book kind of forgets that little detail.  (That's one reason among many I mentioned it's a bit... out there.)

So it conflates the B-21A pallet with the dorsal micro-missile launchers carried over from the YF-21 prototype and those are what it attributes the 40 per port/160 total to.

It doesn't even mention the ventral launchers/bays and instead talks about mounting missiles to the inside and outside of the limb bay centerline... as well as to a bunch of pylons the VF-22 has never been depicted with in official materials.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

RPGers have speculated that there are up to 12 micro-missiles in each launcher, giving the VF-22 4x12 (wings) +4x12 (pallets) [96 total].  It's a rather large amount, but as the YF-21/VF-22 is based on the Quadoran-Ro (officially has 126 missiles), it's not exactly an unprecedented development in Macross...

※ if memory serves, the magic number of 12 comes from the VF-1's Super Packs.  Something officially released, so it's also not something pulled out of thin air (like the VFMF publishers apparently did ).

The usual assumption is that any given micro-missile launcher system has between 3 and 6 missiles per launch port based on official counts from published stats from the VF-1 all the way up to the VF-31.  The initial assumption was 3, based on the VF-1 Super Pack's HMMP-02 micro-missile launcher having 4 ports and 3 missiles per port for a total of 12 in each launcher system.  

The one real exception/outlier with a specific missile count was the YF-29.  It has 12 launcher systems, but 100 missiles total meaning there's an average of 8.333 per launcher and uneven allocation.

 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

I'm not disagreeing.  However, official sources state that there are both micro-missiles and gun pods in there.

Just like the wing-root MM launchers, I suspect that there's more than a bit of anime-magic going on.  Heck, one can argue that the people behind Macross have always been playing fast and loose with MM launchers and how many missiles they can dish out.  They're almost like the unlimited ammo clips® seen in live-action action movies!

As Kouta Hirano, the author of Hellsing, once put it:

"They're all cosmoguns that can hold a million rounds."

[Harri]

6 hours ago, RedWolf said:

 Gramia VI volunteered as a pilot for Vindirance.

 

It's weird to find out the King of Windermere once fought alongside Aegis Focker.

Edit: also, I didn't think the Second Unification War was widespread enough to reach the Brisingr Cluster.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Harri

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, RedWolf said:

2. Canonicaly the Hasegawa VF-19A is Aegis Fokker's unit.

In some sources, it's straight-up referred to as the "VF-19A Ravens" type (e.g. Macross 30).

 

7 hours ago, RedWolf said:

3. Manfred is not the Old Man, Young Man, and Young Woman talking to Grace but he is part of the hivemind. When he was alive Manfred was researching a means of uploading his consciousness to a computer. The whole Galactic Parallel Thinking Network was Grace's idea which Galaxy co-opted.

Manfred only appears as one of the "Cyber Nobles" who run the Macross Galaxy fleet in the novelizations of the TV series and Movies.  Unlike the other Cyber Nobles, he appears to be a consciousness divorced of a body ala Ghost in the Shell as he has to borrow one of Grace's to attack SMS.

 

7 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Fasces has the Protodevlin Heritage factory satellite which can produce armaments like the Vajra do making their own bullets drawing energy from Subspace.

The Vajra don't produce armaments like that, they use bio-technological beam weapons, grow their missiles internally as an organic process, and their large beam weapons are heavy quantum beam weapons like the a Macross Cannon.

Fold dimensional energy conversion - extracting energy directly from fold space - is implied to be how they power energy-intensive abilities.

[RedWolf]

4 hours ago, Harri said:

It's weird to find out the King of Windermere once fought alongside Aegis Focker.

Edit: also, I didn't think the Second Unification War was widespread enough to reach the Brisingr Cluster.

Gramia is not an Earth supremacist but a Windermearean supremacist. Gramia volunteer because he was young, ambitous,  and Lactence machinations are a threat to the independence of Windermere. Yeah he didn't really grow up throwing a hissy fit when the NUNG said no on making Windermere an exception to restrictions for the mining and distribution of Fold Quartz.

Messer was supposed to transfer to Sephira Xaos branch before he died. Sephira was one of planets the Ravens had a mission on. In 2060 Sephira was attacked by rogue Zentradi. Coincidentally in the Black Wings manga Delta prequel at 2060 just before the Independence War the Aerial Knights were deployed against a Zentradi incursion away from Windermere. Keith's complaint was the Aerial Knights should only protect Windermere viewing the Mutual Defense Treaty with NUNS as unfair to them. One of the "Unequal Treaties" Roid was talking about. Sephira system may be relatively close to the Brisingr Globular Cluster but far from Windermere as the cluster is 800 light-years across from Ragna to Windermere.

 

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Vajra don't produce armaments like that, they use bio-technological beam weapons, grow their missiles internally as an organic process, and their large beam weapons are heavy quantum beam weapons like the a Macross Cannon.

Fold dimensional energy conversion - extracting energy directly from fold space - is implied to be how they power energy-intensive abilities.

Thing is violating the whole Conservation of Mass that the Protoculture do with the Bird Human was based on Vajra. It kinda explains the Reactive Armor adaptation the Vajra did to be immune to Reaction Bombs.

Edited May 31, 2021 by RedWolf
Grammar

[Seto Kaiba]

11 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Gramia is not an Earth supremacist but a Windermearean supremacist. Gramia volunteer because he was young, ambitous,  and Lactence machinations are a threat to the independence of Windermere. Yeah he didn't really grow up throwing a hissy fit when the NUNG said no on making Windermere an exception to restrictions for the mining and distribution of Fold Quartz.

It's more that the Second Unification War was effectively fought over the amount of autonomy that individual New UN Government members should have.  As the ruler of one of the New UN Government member worlds, Grammier naturally fell in with the pro-autonomy faction that ended up winning.

King Grammier himself wasn't a Windermerean supremacist.  He was just upset with the slow pace of Windermere IV's economic development because his world's almost exclusively agricultural economy had little else to offer.  It was kind of a self-centered view since the rest of the Brisingr globular cluster had similar economic issues due to its isolation.  He was also somewhat unhappy with his obligations under treaty to reinforce his neighbors in the event of an outside threat.  It was his chancellor c.2067, Roid Brehm, who began to add all that stuff about Windermerean manifest destiny to the nationalistic fervor that'd overtaken Windermere IV since 2060.

 

11 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Thing is violating the whole Conservation of Mass that the Protoculture do with the Bird Human was based on Vajra. It kinda explains the Reactive Armor adaptation the Vajra did to be immune to Reaction Bombs.

It wasn't, though.  They mention in the OVA that it was growing by absorbing matter from the air.

In the Frontier TV series, they mention the Vajra mine asteroids and such for raw materials.

(It's conservation of energy they're nominally violating by siphoning power directly out of higher dimensions.)

[sketchley]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The one real exception/outlier with a specific missile count was the YF-29.  It has 12 launcher systems, but 100 missiles total meaning there's an average of 8.333 per launcher and uneven allocation.

The YF-29 is where Kawamori-san himself starts to get... excessive.

Of the 12 micro-missile (MM) launcher systems, we are shown a breakdown of the relative missile loads of 8 of those launchers on "Macross Variable Fighter Designer Notes" Pg 242:

• 2x calf MM launchers: 4 rows of 6 + 1 row of 5 (29 for the pair [58 for both legs])
• 2x ankle MM launchers: 4 rows of 6 +1 row of 5 (29 for the pair [58 for both legs])
• There's also the concealed shoulder MM launchers with 15 missiles (30 for both shoulders)

Which gives us 146 (!) missiles.  And that's not even including the 4 MM launchers on the wing engine pods!

That's 15.5 MM per MM launcher and uneven allocation (not including the shoulder pods, nor the wing engine pod MM launchers).

 

That trend gets worse with the Sv-262—each wing MM pod has 2 MM launchers and 5 rows of 6 (plastic model*) or 7 rows of 6 ("Macross Shoji Kawamori Designer's Note" Pg 622).

That's a whopping 30 to 42 MM per pod, 120 to 168 MM total... not including the 4 MM launchers in each Lil Drakken mounted on the wingtips.

Here we have 15 to 21 MM per MM launcher (not including the Lil Drakken MM launchers).

 

I think it's fairly safe to say that by the time of Frontier, MM launchers are pushing 15 missiles per launcher.  With Delta, it's pushed past 15.  Substantially.

 

 

* due to how the kit is assembled, some MM have been removed from the part.  It's unclear how many.  So, accurately speaking, it should be "more than 30".

Edited May 31, 2021 by sketchley

[sketchley]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The initial assumption was 3, based on the VF-1 Super Pack's HMMP-02 micro-missile launcher having 4 ports and 3 missiles per port for a total of 12 in each launcher system.  

That is true.  However, it was pointed out to me that the MM payload in the VF-1's Super Pack's launchers were double (or more) in the officially approved Yamato products (someone who collects the toys will have to confirm).

If we consider the Yamato version to be the 2030's version, that gives us:

• SDFM era (2009):  3 MM per launcher
• DYRL filming era (2031): 6 MM per launcher
• MF era (2059): ~15 MM per launcher
• Delta era (2067): 15+~21 MM per launcher

 

So, the figure of 12 MM per launcher in the VF-22 posted earlier is arguably a higher estimate.  However, it's not exactly outside of the progression of payload increases.

valk1j - I think anything from 8 to 12 MM per launcher could be considered "plausible".  You could give the '17 8 MM per launcher, and the '22 10 MM per launcher to keep the one player from overwhelming the other.

Edited May 31, 2021 by sketchley

[pengbuzz]

On 5/30/2021 at 9:24 AM, sketchley said:

I'm not disagreeing.  However, official sources state that there are both micro-missiles and gun pods in there.

Just like the wing-root MM launchers, I suspect that there's more than a bit of anime-magic going on.  Heck, one can argue that the people behind Macross have always been playing fast and loose with MM launchers and how many missiles they can dish out.  They're almost like the unlimited ammo clips® seen in live-action action movies!

Hey, it's all good! Just my 2 cents worth (for what weight it carries!)

  

19 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As Kouta Hirano, the author of Hellsing, once put it:

"They're all cosmoguns that can hold a million rounds."

And the control panels are made of Explodium™

 

  

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Vajra don't produce armaments like that, they use bio-technological beam weapons, grow their missiles internally as an organic process, and their large beam weapons are heavy quantum beam weapons like the a Macross Cannon.

Imagine the NUNS trying to do this with armaments for their forces...

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, sketchley said:

The YF-29 is where Kawamori-san himself starts to get... excessive.

IMO, he was in excessive territory a bit before that... remember how many missiles the APS-25A/MF25 officially has?  274!

(Master File's take on the SPS-25S/MF25 takes it over 200 as well.)

 

18 hours ago, sketchley said:

Of the 12 micro-missile (MM) launcher systems, we are shown a breakdown of the relative missile loads of 8 of those launchers on "Macross Variable Fighter Designer Notes" Pg 242:

• 2x calf MM launchers: 4 rows of 6 + 1 row of 5 (29 for the pair [58 for both legs])
• 2x ankle MM launchers: 4 rows of 6 +1 row of 5 (29 for the pair [58 for both legs])
• There's also the concealed shoulder MM launchers with 15 missiles (30 for both shoulders)

Which gives us 146 (!) missiles.  And that's not even including the 4 MM launchers on the wing engine pods!

That's 15.5 MM per MM launcher and uneven allocation (not including the shoulder pods, nor the wing engine pod MM launchers).

I had quite forgotten there was line art of the launchers in Variable Fighter Designer's Note.

Yeah, that skews matters a bit, makes me wonder where the writers got 100 when they originally quoted the launchers... though I'm also not sure they technically belong to the same category we're talking about since these are "clamshell"-type launchers like the ones on the VF-25 Super Pack that also have firing ports instead of being just port-based.

 

18 hours ago, sketchley said:

That trend gets worse with the Sv-262—each wing MM pod has 2 MM launchers and 5 rows of 6 (plastic model*) or 7 rows of 6 ("Macross Shoji Kawamori Designer's Note" Pg 622).

That's a whopping 30 to 42 MM per pod, 120 to 168 MM total... not including the 4 MM launchers in each Lil Drakken mounted on the wingtips.

Here we have 15 to 21 MM per MM launcher (not including the Lil Drakken MM launchers).

Those are also the "clamshell" type, though.

 

18 hours ago, sketchley said:

I think it's fairly safe to say that by the time of Frontier, MM launchers are pushing 15 missiles per launcher.  With Delta, it's pushed past 15.  Substantially.

Yes and no?  I mean, the clamshell type launchers have always held more because they're usually big external modules rather than integrated directly into the VF.  It's the little conformal port type ones that've been the ones with relatively limited ammo and that was a trend preserved into Delta.  The VF-31's micro-missile launchers have a total of 6 missiles per port, 3 ports per leg, for a total of 36 missiles in total.  (Though the modular payload bay in the back of the leg on the VF-31A DX Chogokin is sculpted with another 18 missiles per leg, bringing the total there to 72.)

 

 

17 hours ago, sketchley said:

That is true.  However, it was pointed out to me that the MM payload in the VF-1's Super Pack's launchers were double (or more) in the officially approved Yamato products (someone who collects the toys will have to confirm).

If we consider the Yamato version to be the 2030's version, that gives us:

• SDFM era (2009):  3 MM per launcher
• DYRL filming era (2031): 6 MM per launcher
• MF era (2059): ~15 MM per launcher
• Delta era (2067): 15+~21 MM per launcher

So, going from my notes...

Pre-First Space War the VF-0's external micro-missile launchers were 3 missiles for each of the 8 ports on the launcher.

Per the line art and official cutaways, the VF-1 Valkyrie's HMMP-02 missile pod from its Super Pack has 3 missiles for each of the 4 ports on the launcher assembly.  The same 3 count is also used for the UUM-7 micro-missile pods.

Several plamodels and the Arcadia 1/60 VF-1S Roy Super Pack show the HMMP-02 with 5 missiles for each of the 4 ports on the launcher assembly.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2 rationalizes this as a later improvement achieved by using a later model of missile (HMM-03) that was also smaller than the initial HMM-01.

The Valkyrie II's launchers in Macross II each held exactly 3 micro-missiles.

For a while there, the VF-19 spec was quoting 12 micro-missiles per pallet, which would've made for 6 per port on the YF-19's Super Pack.  The reduced count of 6 would take it down to 3 per port.

The VF-31 spec lists the micro-missile launchers in the VF-31's legs as holding a combined total of 36 missiles, spread across 6 ports is 6 missiles per port.

So that's where the 3-6 for internal launchers comes from.

 

 

Clamshell-type launchers change the game up a bit since they tend to hold way more missiles due to more flexible launch angles and are usually external packs rather than built into the VF for aerodynamic purposes.

The PSW-0X's clamshell launchers had 15 missiles apiece per shoulder and 10 per side of the chest.

The GBP-1S's had 11 per shoulder and 5 per side of the chest.

The Tomahawk's and Spartan's had 12.

The VF-17 Super Pack's had 11.

It starts going quite a bit nuts in Frontier... though it's worth noting the stated counts don't quite match the published line art either.  The line art shows 18 in each chest-mounted clamshell launcher, 23 in the shoulder-mounted ones, the upper leg has 25, and the lower leg has 28, while the wing boosters have 15 a side for a total of 218.  The spec gives that as 20, 38, 16 (x2), 16 (x2), and 15 for 274.

The clamshell missile pods for the VF-25's Tornado Pack (DX Renewal Ver.) are sculpted with 80 missiles, but since the hinges are in the way it's probably ~86 per pod.  Pre-Renewal shows 81.

The DX Chogokin Sv-262 shows, I think, 33 per pod?  It's not well-sculpted I'm afraid.  As you've said, the plamodel has ~30 and the art shows 42.

 

 

9 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Imagine the NUNS trying to do this with armaments for their forces...

Naresuan wanted to revive the Protodeviln Legacy factory satellite that was able to produce weapons without limitation because it could violate conservation of matter.

[pengbuzz]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Valkyrie II's launchers in Macross II each held exactly 3 micro-missiles.

  Sorry, but that reminds me of this scene:

"Five is right out!"

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Naresuan wanted to revive the Protodeviln Legacy factory satellite that was able to produce weapons without limitation because it could violate conservation of matter.

That would be scary; if they could do that with ships and armament, then couple it with cloning tech, they'd have the ability to challenge Zentraedi Main Battle Fleets.

Talk about restarting the Protoculture Wars...

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Those are also the "clamshell" type, though.

...

Clamshell-type launchers change the game up a bit since they tend to hold way more missiles due to more flexible launch angles and are usually external packs rather than built into the VF for aerodynamic purposes.

The PSW-0X's clamshell launchers had 15 missiles apiece per shoulder and 10 per side of the chest.

The GBP-1S's had 11 per shoulder and 5 per side of the chest.

The Tomahawk's and Spartan's had 12.

...

Uhm, you seem to be conflating 2 separate and distinct types of MM launchers.

The ones I mentioned on the YF-29 and Sv-252 are ported MM launchers that also open up "clamshell" style (able to fire single missiles or missile spams).

Those others you mention are NOT the same type (only able to missile spam).  Only the shoulder launchers on the YF-29 are the same type, and they weren't included in my figures.

 

Also, while the Sv-252's leg pods are optional "super packs", the ones on the YF-29 are built into the airframe—like the arms or nose cone—and not external packs.

[RedWolf]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

  Sorry, but that reminds me of this scene:

"Five is right out!"

That would be scary; if they could do that with ships and armament, then couple it with cloning tech, they'd have the ability to challenge Zentraedi Main Battle Fleets.

Talk about restarting the Protoculture Wars...

It gets worse it can also brainwash people. This is why Fasces became pirate group that hijack ships and kidnap people. However the threat is still out there with Angers 672 missing along with that Protodevlin Factory Satellite still at play. She just needs a Sophia Spiritia Fold Receptor or a Protodevlin to activate it fully. This was the Factory Satellite that made the Supervision Army gear back in the day.

What is disturbing Mirage described her first fight as a NUNS pilot involved stopping some Anti-UN group that tried to hijack an Island.

At this point NUNS is tired of brainwashing a-holes that they are likely willing to use MDE.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

Uhm, you seem to be conflating 2 separate and distinct types of MM launchers.

The ones I mentioned on the YF-29 and Sv-252 are ported MM launchers that also open up "clamshell" style (able to fire single missiles or missile spams).

I'm looking more at the mounting type and access type in combination... the micro-missile launchers with the aggressively limited capacities mentioned previously tend to be ones that are either mounted fully inside of a VF or in some other streamlined package that needs to be kept as low-profile as possible like a missile pod.

The second type with the greater capacity are mainly external launcher systems.

 

8 hours ago, sketchley said:

Also, while the Sv-252's leg pods are optional "super packs", the ones on the YF-29 are built into the airframe—like the arms or nose cone—and not external packs.

To be fair, the Sv-262's leg pods are "optional" as in "not a permanent part of the airframe".  They have almost no weaponry without them so they're an option that's always taken... while the YF-29's are essentially a FAST Pack that's partially fused with the airframe.

 

 

5 hours ago, RedWolf said:

At this point NUNS is tired of brainwashing a-holes that they are likely willing to use MDE.

That was certainly their strategy on Windermere IV before Wright botched the job... which at least proves the New UN Forces are willing to learn from their mistakes and assume that anything the ancient Protoculture buried is probably something stupidly dangerous that the galaxy is better off without.

(The NUNS and SMS also deployed MDE weapons against the Fold Evil on Uroboros in the novelization of Macross 30.)

[sketchley]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I'm looking more at the mounting type and access type in combination... the micro-missile launchers with the aggressively limited capacities mentioned previously tend to be ones that are either mounted fully inside of a VF or in some other streamlined package that needs to be kept as low-profile as possible like a missile pod.

The second type with the greater capacity are mainly external launcher systems.

Again: you're conflating 2 distinct MM launchers.

I could go into detail citing examples, but as the OP's question has already been answered...

Edited June 2, 2021 by sketchley

[Invid99]

Can the Quel-Quallie scout ship and the Salvage ship be considered as semi-mecha? Both has mobile legs and arms, so can we put them in the category of mecha?

 

 

 

[Roy Focker]

26 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

Can the Quel-Quallie scout ship and the Salvage ship be considered as semi-mecha? Both has mobile legs and arms, so can we put them in the category of mecha

I would call them Support-Mecha.

 

[azrael]

Mecha, in anime, is short-hand for mechanics. Vehicles are considered mechanics in anime. Most artbooks list vehicles in the “mecha” or “mechanics” sections. Cars, planes, trains, tanks, robots, are all mecha. What kind of mecha, as Roy alluded to, depends on how specific you want to get. 

[NightmarePlus]

On 6/1/2021 at 1:02 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Naresuan wanted to revive the Protodeviln Legacy factory satellite that was able to produce weapons without limitation because it could violate conservation of matter.

What actually is the Protodevlin legacy factory? First time reading about it

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, NightmarePlus said:

What actually is the Protodevlin legacy factory? First time reading about it

An almost literal case of what TV Tropes would call Offscreen Villain Dark Matter.

(It should probably be read Protodeviln Heritage, or "Legacy" in the sense of "Inheritance".)

Basically, it's an advanced type of automated factory satellite that doesn't need an outside source of raw material, violating conservation of mass.  It's capable of pulling energy from higher dimensional space and turning it into matter.

It's believed that these facilities produced the Varauta Grand Fleet that the Protodeviln used in Macross 7.

[Invid99]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:13 PM, azrael said:

Mecha, in anime, is short-hand for mechanics. Vehicles are considered mechanics in anime. Most artbooks list vehicles in the “mecha” or “mechanics” sections. Cars, planes, trains, tanks, robots, are all mecha. What kind of mecha, as Roy alluded to, depends on how specific you want to get. 

I was thinking of vehicles with mechanical arms and legs. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Invid99 said:

I was thinking of vehicles with mechanical arms and legs. 

Used literally, the definition is a lot broader than that.  Even in Macross Chronicle, you'll find the Mechanic Sheets contain relatively mundane things like conventional aircraft, cars and motorbikes, and even vending machines alongside the more exotic things like space warships and giant robots.

[Invid99]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Used literally, the definition is a lot broader than that.  Even in Macross Chronicle, you'll find the Mechanic Sheets contain relatively mundane things like conventional aircraft, cars and motorbikes, and even vending machines alongside the more exotic things like space warships and giant robots.

I get that, but if were to put the mechanics that has arms and legs, then the Gnerl and Landingcraft cannot be put in the category of mobile suits? Or can we call a car and motorbikes for mobile suits too? Quel-Quallie scout ship and the Salvage ship have more in common with a Queadluun-rau than a car?

Edited June 9, 2021 by Invid99

[Seto Kaiba]

21 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

I get that, but if were to put the mechanics that has arms and legs, then the Gnerl and Landingcraft cannot be put in the category of mobile suits? Or can we call a car and motorbikes for mobile suits too? Quel-Quallie scout ship and the Salvage ship have more in common with a Queadluun-rau than a car?

"Mecha" isn't an in-universe category... it's an out-of-universe only term.

The Gnerl, the Quel-Quallie, and the troop lander are all officially lumped in the general category of "Pods"... being an "Air Battle Pod" or "Aerial Dogfight Pod", "Theatre Scout Pod", and "Large Landing Pod" respectively.  I don't believe the recovery craft is officially listed in that category, but it probably should be "Recovery Pod".

[azrael]

1 hour ago, Invid99 said:

I get that, but if were to put the mechanics that has arms and legs, then the Gnerl and Landingcraft cannot be put in the category of mobile suits?

Given the origins of mobile suits, I actually could.