The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Bolt]

40 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Eden was stumbled upon by a short-distance emigrant fleet, one of the ~100 that ended up exploring space within a few hundred light years of Sol.  It was discovered between the launches of Megaroad-01 and Megaroad-02.

Sounds like Eden has been colonized a long time in terms of the migrant fleet explorations. 

Woukd you say the first ?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Bolt said:

Sounds like Eden has been colonized a long time in terms of the migrant fleet explorations. 

Woukd you say the first ?

It was the first planet outside of our solar system to be colonized, yeah.

[Bolt]

45 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The only sections I've done out of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur so far are the variants list, block numbers list, and some stuff way at the front of the book about the cockpit and mobile seat.

If you ever get the chance , please do more!

I'm planning on a 1/72 "Phantom Sword " squad. The Vaks look killer (no pun intended) and the SVF 440 emblems look awesomeness.

 Love to gather more details. 

[Seto Kaiba]

18 hours ago, Bolt said:

If you ever get the chance , please do more!

Oh, I will... but between the amount of stuff in the To-Do pile and the estimate that each volume of Master File will take 4-6 months to complete, it'll be a year or two before I get there.

[Bolt]

37 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, I will... but between the amount of stuff in the To-Do pile and the estimate that each volume of Master File will take 4-6 months to complete, it'll be a year or two before I get there.

Lol. 

That's sooner than I thought you'd say!

[Lexomatic]

There are several classes of Earth warship with "stealth" in the type (Guantanamo-class stealth carrier, Northampton-class stealth frigate, Battle-class variable stealth space attack carrier) -- what does "stealth" mean in this context? I can guess, but is there any explanation in the (if I understand correctly, limited relative to VFs) official technical documents?

My guess: the human emigration fleets (or at least their UNS/NUNS outriders) are designed to avoid attracting the attention of uncultured Zentraedi fleets, by whatever means Zentraedi use to detect Supervision Army forces -- maybe thermal or radio, but probably fold emissions. Presumably stealthy overtechnology was invented by humans as soon as Britai and Exedol revealed how they had found Earth in the first place, and showed off the sensors; this might be an innovation the Protoculture itself didn't have, or which they saw fit to reserve unto themselves and not the Zentraedi-supplying factory satellites.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Lexomatic said:

There are several classes of Earth warship with "stealth" in the type (Guantanamo-class stealth carrier, Northampton-class stealth frigate, Battle-class variable stealth space attack carrier) -- what does "stealth" mean in this context? I can guess, but is there any explanation in the (if I understand correctly, limited relative to VFs) official technical documents?

What little is said on the subject of stealth technology for space warships in official Macross sources like Macross Chronicle is predominantly about passive stealth.

The Northampton-class stealth frigate, Guantanamo-class stealth carrier, and many other types of stealth warship in Macross are designed to minimize the possibility of detection using a combination of passive stealth coatings that absorb radar and fold waves, and structural shaping that deflects incoming radar and cross-dimension radar pulses away from a sending station.  Presumably they also incorporate technologies to reduce detectable radio, electromagnetic, infrared, and fold wave emissions.  Various things that might disrupt their passive stealth like beam turrets are typically retractable and stored inside the ship when not in use.

Electronic countermeasures like radar and radio jamming are also used to preserve stealthiness at times.

There are a few isolated mentions of active stealth technology, though the dominant active stealth technology in the Macross universe is the complex and energy-intensive method of active cancellation.  This method involves near-instantaneous analysis of an incoming radar pulse and transmitting a corresponding pulse of identical frequency and amplitude but an opposite phase back to effectively zero the net amplitude of the radar return received by the enemy radar via the wave superposition principle.  The main drawback of this system is a dramatic loss of effectiveness the more powerful the enemy radar is.

 

Quote

My guess: the human emigration fleets (or at least their UNS/NUNS outriders) are designed to avoid attracting the attention of uncultured Zentraedi fleets, by whatever means Zentraedi use to detect Supervision Army forces -- maybe thermal or radio, but probably fold emissions. Presumably stealthy overtechnology was invented by humans as soon as Britai and Exedol revealed how they had found Earth in the first place, and showed off the sensors; this might be an innovation the Protoculture itself didn't have, or which they saw fit to reserve unto themselves and not the Zentraedi-supplying factory satellites.

The emigrant fleets dispatched into the greater galaxy by the New UN Government are absolutely set on avoiding confrontations with rogue Zentradi fleets and other hostiles whenever possible, and being stealthy helps to a degree.  The fact that the galaxy is a REALLY BIG place and space fold technology is inherently a pretty crappy way to explore the galaxy when it's essentially folded subspace teleportation that deprives the folding ship of the ability to observe anything occurring in the space between Point A and Point B until it emerges helps a lot too.  Without following each other's fold communication, the chances of two fleets running into each other by accident is astronomically low.  Even if you're right there when a ship folds, it's very difficult to track a space fold to its destination.

Stealth technology for warships wouldn't have come out of how Vrlitwhai and Exsedol's branch fleet detected the Macross... that was a total accident when they just happened to be in precisely the right spot to detect the residual gravity waves of a defold event 10 light years away that occurred 10 years prior.

(The Zentradi are shown employing a form of active stealth in the original series episode "Burst Point".)

Edited September 25, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[Kelsain]

STEALTH!!

[JB0]

1 hour ago, Kelsain said:

STEALTH!!

What am I looking at here? All I see is stars.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Kelsain said:

STEALTH!!

What are you talking about? That's clearly a small moon.  Just ask Obi-wan.  He knows small moons.

[Bariaburu Faita]

What is the history of this variant, Star Pro maybe? Animator error?

[Bolt]

Anime "magic"..

lol

Edited September 28, 2018 by Bolt

[Sanity is Optional]

1 hour ago, Bariaburu Faita said:

What is the history of this variant, Star Pro maybe? Animator error?

Duct tape mod.

[JB0]

Out of continuity, it isn't an animation error.  It is the CORRECTION of an animation error. 

 

As I understand things, the episode was initially animated with the Valkyrie one-shotting a ship with a giant  beam attack, Gamlin-style. But the VF-1  doesn't HAVE a giant beam attack.

They didn't have time to fully rework the scene before airing, so they drew a bunch of missiles onto the tail fins so it could feasibly take down the ship on its own WITHOUT a giant laser beam. Replace the beam layer in the shot with a missile-swarm layer, and the ship is dead without any canon-defying cannonfire.

 

 

 

In-continuty? Duck-tape mod. UN Spacey likes to pretend that never happened. 

[Bariaburu Faita]

29 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Out of continuity, it isn't an animation error.  It is the CORRECTION of an animation error. 

 

As I understand things, the episode was initially animated with the Valkyrie one-shotting a ship with a giant  beam attack, Gamlin-style. But the VF-1  doesn't HAVE a giant beam attack.

They didn't have time to fully rework the scene before airing, so they drew a bunch of missiles onto the tail fins so it could feasibly take down the ship on its own WITHOUT a giant laser beam. Replace the beam layer in the shot with a missile-swarm layer, and the ship is dead without any canon-defying cannonfire.

 

 

 

In-continuty? Duck-tape mod. UN Spacey likes to pretend that never happened. 

Thank you for the clarification. Do you have a source for that information?

[JB0]

Not readily. It is something I remember hearing the last time that missile rack came up.

...

Which means my source is somewhere on the forum, but good luck finding it. 

 

LIGHT THE SETO SIGNAL!

Edited September 28, 2018 by JB0

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

Not readily. It is something I remember hearing the last time that missile rack came up.

...

Which means my source is somewhere on the forum, but good luck finding it. 

 

LIGHT THE SETO SIGNAL!

I'm going to second what JBO said.

Someone who is generally trustworthy with such facts about the production side of SDFM et al wrote what JBO has repeated somewhere on these forums.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, JB0 said:

LIGHT THE SETO SIGNAL!

Didn't know we had one of those... 

Anyway, it only took a minute or two of judicious Google power user-ing to find out who our generally trustworthy friend on these forums who said that this was not an animation error.

It was @Renato, in a post dated 20 January 2004.  It sounds like it'd probably come up a few times before that, but those posts may have been archived or lost.

If he has a print source for that statement, I'd be thrilled to know what it is.  (I don't doubt him, it's just that if there's a print source with goodies like that hidden in it who knows what else may be in there?  It may be an untranslated portion of a book we already have, since we do kind of neglect the crap out of the interviews in art books...)

Edited September 28, 2018 by Seto Kaiba

[Bariaburu Faita]

Thanks everyone for clearing it up. 

[maxoconnor]

Sorry if this is way behind the curve, I don't keep up with the cutting edge of everything Macross. I just recently learned about the YF-24 Evolution. Online it talks about the specs and such, often referencing a scenario where Major Isamu Dyson pilots one and takes out 20 VF-19 / VF-22 fighters with it. 
I have a few questions on this.

1. Is there any plan to make a model of toy of the YF-24 Evolution?

2. Where does this story occur, is it in a manga? If so, where can I get it.

3. Any other sources for this fighter out there that are hard to find? 
 

I've dug around and found some people who have made modified kits of it and such, but nothing more. I would dearly love to get a kit or toy of this fighter since it is all the best parts of several of my favorites all rolled into one design. 

Any help on this topic is greatly appreciate.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, maxoconnor said:

Sorry if this is way behind the curve, I don't keep up with the cutting edge of everything Macross. I just recently learned about the YF-24 Evolution. Online it talks about the specs and such, often referencing a scenario where Major Isamu Dyson pilots one and takes out 20 VF-19 / VF-22 fighters with it. 
I have a few questions on this.

Bets on whether this ends up merged into the Newbie and Short Questions thread or Super Macross Mecha discussion thread?

EDIT: Newbie and Short Questions thread it is!

 

Quote

1. Is there any plan to make a model of toy of the YF-24 Evolution?

None that has been announced.

Given that the YF-24 Evolution has never actually appeared except as a wireframe drawing in one very brief shot in Macross Frontier and the VF-24 production type has only ever been alluded to, it seems profoundly unlikely one will be made unless some future show should prominently feature New UN Forces troops from Earth itself.

 

Quote

2. Where does this story occur, is it in a manga? If so, where can I get it.

There is no story.  It's mentioned in passing in an explanation of the YF-24's development history in the Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle (Technology Sheet 01P: Variable Fighter Development History 4).

 

Quote

3. Any other sources for this fighter out there that are hard to find? 

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah talks briefly about the YF-24 and VF-24's development in connection with the VF-25's, but the total material is less than a page's worth of text on pages 18-19.  Those two pages are mostly dominated by clean versions of the same line art used in the screencap above.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Seto Kaiba
The move happened.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is also a brief mention of the YF-24 in the liner notes for the sixth volume of the Macross Frontier blu-rays.

[SMS007]

3 hours ago, maxoconnor said:

So where is this image from? Some fan kitbash?

[Seto Kaiba]

19 minutes ago, SMS007 said:

So where is this image from? Some fan kitbash?

From the composition and font, I'm going to guess it's from one of the semi-recent Hobby Japan mooks about Macross modeling.

It's definitely a customized model kit... from the look of it, a VF-25 kit (-A or -G type) with a custom delta wing.  You can see it has the VF-25's wing glove.

[Sailor Arashi]

21 hours ago, JB0 said:

They didn't have time to fully rework the scene before airing, so they drew a bunch of missiles onto the tail fins so it could feasibly take down the ship on its own WITHOUT a giant laser beam. Replace the beam layer in the shot with a missile-swarm layer, and the ship is dead without any canon-defying cannonfire.

Reading the subsequent replies to this post I have located and made GIFs of the 'tail fin missiles' incident.  The second image being the above mentioned unlikely one-shotting of the Zentradi scout ship.  This all appears in SDFM episode 10 between timestamps 18:40 and 19:15.

[Kelsain]

So, we know that Vermillion Team was part of Skull Squadron on the Macross. It consisted of three pilots:

Hikaru in 1J #101, Max in 1A #111 & Kakizaki in 1A #112

Roy as Skull Leader had his 1S #001

 

Is there literature out there that specifies how many teams are in a VF squadron? And therefore, how many VF's are in a squadron? What about Skulls 102-110?

Does Roy have his own team, or just command all the other teams?

 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, Kelsain said:

So, we know that Vermillion Team was part of Skull Squadron on the Macross. It consisted of three pilots:

Hikaru in 1J #101, Max in 1A #111 & Kakizaki in 1A #112

MODEX numbers are a tiny bit wrong in the UN Forces vs. what's used by the US today... given that they start at 000 instead of 100.  They also seem to include multiple squadrons in a single bracket of MODEX numbers, given that we have some ships with as many as 750 fighters aboard and we have yet to see a four-digit MODEX.  (It doesn't help that art for the original series didn't include MODEX numbers, which may have ended up a bit jumbled anyway when the influx of new recruits ended up expanding the Prometheus's squadrons with every spare airframe that was on hand.)

It's only books like Master File that show MODEX numbers for the TV series versions... Roy's is given as the standard 001, Hikaru's as 023, Max's as 111, and Hayao's as 112 in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1.  (For Hikaru's, they're drawing on his callsign from his first sortie, where he went by Skull 023.)

It's probably better/easier/safer/saner to use their DYRL? MODEX numbers of 001, 011, 012, and 013 for Roy, Hikaru, Kakizaki, and Max respectively.

 

1 hour ago, Kelsain said:

Is there literature out there that specifies how many teams are in a VF squadron? And therefore, how many VF's are in a squadron? What about Skulls 102-110?

The one time an example squadron organization has been given in an official publication, it was a squadron composed of 15 VF-1's divided into platoons of 3 aircraft apiece.  Dialog from the series proper suggests a UN Spacy VF squadron is 15-24 fighters.  DYRL? shows the same squadron with platoons of 4 aircraft instead.

(It's worth noting that the numbers of variants given in that chart do not jive with the numbers of  all the variants aboard the Macross.  They have way too few VF-1J's and too many VF-1A's to create the sample disposition.  Assuming a DYRL-like composition with a greater number of A-types makes more sense.  The numbers in the Sky Angels book shake out almost perfectly for a DYRL?-style squadron and support Master File's contention that the Macross was home to 14 squadrons.)

Later Macross titles, starting with Macross: Do You Remember Love?, have variously shown the (New) UN Forces and other organizations using platoons of either 3 or 4 aircraft:

• SVF-1 Skulls, Skull Platoon in DYRL? was 4 planes
• Fairy Platoon in II was 4 planes
• Diamond Force and Emerald Force in 7 were 3 planes apiece
• Sound Force was 3 planes
• SMS Skull Platoon was 4 planes (only 3 actual combat models tho)
• SMS Pixie Platoon was 3 battle suits
• Alto's NUNS Sagittarius Platoon was 3 planes
• Macross 30's SMS unit fields a 3 plane platoon

 

 

1 hour ago, Kelsain said:

Does Roy have his own team, or just command all the other teams?

Roy leads the squadron's command platoon, which shares the name of the squadron.

In DYRL?, Hikaru, Max, and Kakizaki are the other three members of Skull Platoon.

[sketchley]

13 hours ago, Kelsain said:

Is there literature out there that specifies how many teams are in a VF squadron? And therefore, how many VF's are in a squadron? What about Skulls 102-110?

 

Expanding on Seto's answer: while the military in Macross is nominally based on the US (and/or NATO) organization, there are a lot of customs from the Imperial Japanese Forces still active.  3 aircraft in a flight being a prime example of that.

So, it helps to look at the WWII organization:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army_Air_Service#Operational_Organization states 10 to 15 aircraft per squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Navy_Air_Service states 9, 12 or 16 aircraft per squadron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Navy_Air_Service#Daitai,_Chūtai,_Shōtai states 18 per 大隊, 9 per 中隊, and 3 per 小隊.  小隊 usually being translated into Flight (therefore, in SDFM, Hikaru's unit should have been referred to as "Vermilion Flight"), and 中隊 as squadron.  大隊 would be the next organizational unit up.

However, the translation is fuzzy at best.  It's better to look at them from the Japanese perspective: 小隊 small group, 中隊 medium group, 大隊 large group.  Or 1 large group = 2 medium groups = 6 small groups.

 

The numbers also line up with Seto's paraphrasing from the series of 15 of 3 apiece, and 15~24 per squadron, especially if you take into consideration reserve aircraft , and aircraft for headquarters.

Edited October 5, 2018 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

So, it helps to look at the WWII organization:

Sort of... it helps to look at WWII organization for the US forces too, since the UN Spacy's squadron organization is a weird melange of US and Imperial Japanese practices drawn from their respective armies, navies, and air forces.

They seem to be pulling unit sizes from the Air Force side, IMO.  The standard squadron size is the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service's 15 planes, while the maximum in the US Army Air Force in the same period was 24.

 

11 hours ago, sketchley said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_the_Imperial_Japanese_Navy_Air_Service#Daitai,_Chūtai,_Shōtai states 18 per 大隊, 9 per 中隊, and 3 per 小隊.  小隊 usually being translated into Flight (therefore, in SDFM, Hikaru's unit should have been referred to as "Vermilion Flight"), and 中隊 as squadron.  大隊 would be the next organizational unit up.

However, the translation is fuzzy at best.  It's better to look at them from the Japanese perspective: 小隊 small group, 中隊 medium group, 大隊 large group.  Or 1 large group = 2 medium groups = 6 small groups.

It's a slightly awkward situation, translation-wise, thanks to the UN Spacy's organization being such an odd mixture of different branches of service and that the IJN organization doesn't line up neatly with the USAF/USN ones.  Partly, this is because there is no organizational level between NATO II (Battalion/Squadron) and NATO ••• (Platoon/Flight) in the aviation context.

So instead of being Squadron > ??? > Flight, it comes out as Squadron > Flight > Element. 

Though, in possibly deference to the Battroid's status as a land warfare weapon, they seem to have opted to make Platoon the official translation for that lowest level since that same number (3-4) is what you get in a tank platoon.

It's a messy bit of translation, that's for sure.

[Lexomatic]

On 9/28/2018 at 11:42 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

[...] the YF-24 Evolution has never actually appeared except as a wireframe drawing in one very brief shot in Macross Frontier and the VF-24 production type has only ever been alluded to, [...] Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah talks briefly about the YF-24 and VF-24's development in connection with the VF-25's, but the total material is less than a page's worth of text on pages 18-19.  Those two pages are mostly dominated by clean versions of the same line art used in the screencap above.

@Seto Kaiba

Additionally: There is a 36-page glossy booklet associated with Sayonara no Tsubasa (I got mine in a BD combo pack with the movie, video game, script books for both movies, etc.), and on pages 16 to 17 is a "family tree"-type graphic of the YF-24 (that same line art again), Frontier's VF-25 family (YF, F, G, S, RVF, three add-on packs) and YF-29, and Galaxy's VF-27. The lines seem to indicate that the YF-29 derives from the YF-24, VF-25, VF-25F with Tornado Pack, and VF-27. (Actually, the YF-29 and YF-27 are linked with a double-ended line labeled "####?" The text is 1mm tall so I can't translate it.)

[Sildani]

That might refer to the fact the 27 was designed using stolen 29 data courtesy of LAI Group. 

[Seto Kaiba]

17 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

@Seto Kaiba

Additionally: There is a 36-page glossy booklet associated with Sayonara no Tsubasa (I got mine in a BD combo pack with the movie, video game, script books for both movies, etc.), and on pages 16 to 17 is a "family tree"-type graphic of the YF-24 (that same line art again), Frontier's VF-25 family (YF, F, G, S, RVF, three add-on packs) and YF-29, and Galaxy's VF-27. The lines seem to indicate that the YF-29 derives from the YF-24, VF-25, VF-25F with Tornado Pack,

One of the problems with those family tree designs is that, once you get to the YF-24's derivatives, no two of them seem to be in complete agreement.

The most precise explanation would be that the Macross Frontier fleet's local branches of Shinsei and LAI were developing the YF-25 Prophecy and YF-29 Durandal concurrently based on the YF-24's data they obtained from the New UN Government.  Development of the YF-29 stalled early on due to the fleet not having access to fold quartz of the necessary size and purity to build a workable prototype.  The YF-25 advancing to trial production as the VF-25 provided a viable substitute test platform for a few of the YF-29's key features like the wingtip engines and beam turret via their incorporation into the VF-25's all-regime Tornado Pack.  Test data from the VF-25's development and practical testing with the Tornado Pack, as well as a fair number of parts appropriated from the VF-25 itself, enabled the Frontier fleet to hastily complete the YF-29 prototype in 2059 using fold quartz they obtained in the course of their conflict with the Vajra.

So the YF-29 isn't derived from the VF-25 or Tornado Pack, but the YF-29 prototype we see was only able to be completed because data from the VF-25 and Tornado Pack took the place of the test data they couldn't get while they were waiting for the necessary materials to build it.

 

17 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

[...] and VF-27. (Actually, the YF-29 and YF-27 are linked with a double-ended line labeled "####?" The text is 1mm tall so I can't translate it.)

Yeah, I hate it when they print stuff in teeny-weeny Eye-Strain-O-Vision™.  It's for stuff like that that I keep a 4x magnifying lens paperweight around.

That line of text says「情報流出？」, or "Information Leakage?".

What it's referring to is, as @Sildani mentioned, the fact that the design of the production VF-27 was influenced by the Macross Galaxy fleet illicitly obtaining development data from the Macross Frontier fleet's YF-29 program via intentional leaks at LAI.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Hey everyone.  It's been a long time since I was last here, but I have a question I was hoping someone could  answer. I've been trying to find a answer on my own, but nothing yet. What happened/happens to Freyja at the end of Delta? Is she going to die, since she was getting those dry whitish/grayish patches of skin. I know Windermerians have short lives, but feel it's kind of a bittersweet end to Delta. Unless I missed something. Thankyou all ahead of time.

Edited October 11, 2018 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[kajnrig]

14 minutes ago, SkullLeaderVF-X said:

Hey everyone.  It's been a long time since I was last here, but I have a question I was hoping someone could  answer. I've been trying to find a answer on my own, but nothing yet. What happened/happens to Freyja at the end of Delta? Is she going to die, since she was getting those dry whitish/grayish patches of skin. I know Windermerians have short lives, but feel it's kind of a bittersweet end to Delta. Unless I missed something. Thankyou all ahead of time.

You did not miss something. She was already at the mid-point of her life expectancy at the start of the show/movie, and the events of Delta have shortened it, probably significantly.

I seem to recall the final episode cures some of the mineralization(?) afflicting her, but not all of it.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

You did not miss something. She was already at the mid-point of her life expectancy at the start of the show/movie, and the events of Delta have shortened it, probably significantly.

I seem to recall the final episode cures some of the mineralization(?) afflicting her, but not all of it.

So bittersweet ending it is. I swear, I love Macross, but I  am starting to hate some of these open ended, or ambiguous endings. 

Thank you  kajnrig.