The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Just out of curiosity, where are the sensor "eyes" on the YF-21? We see Guld do this zoom out test thing that makes it seem like one is somwhere on the tail, but icant see where that would be based on the toys/models i have. 

I know it has one in the centre of the nose, but i wasnt sure about the rest

"All over the place" would be the simplest answer.  The YF-21/VF-22 has composite optical sensors scattered across its airframe to provide 360 degree all-around awareness and enemy search functions.  Exactly how many and where they are are not stated, though the primary ones are located under the red-colored transparent panels in the aircraft's nose (one on top, one on bottom, and two on each side) with a rear-facing unit on the back of the head.  Given the angle, I'd assume the sensor Guld switched to to get the view he did was probably one of the sensors used for assisting in aiming the aircraft's built-in laser cannons, which are located at the base of the tail.

Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II asserts that there are thirteen separate sets of LAPR-37 composite LADAR camera systems including the seven mentioned in the above paragraph, as well as ones on the sides of the engine nacelles, ones in the forearms for aiming asisstance for the laser cannons, and on the underside of the aircraft near its gunpod ports.

 

6 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Actually I thought of another (totally unrelated) question.

Why were the fold boosters for fighters single use for so long? What fuel did they burn to make jumps? Just electrical energy from a kind of battery, or did they have a fuel source as well? Obviously by Frontier there are re-usable fold drives in fighter size, but in 7 there weren't... or at least they could only jump twice? Or something? 

"Official setting" publications like Macross Chronicle or the old This is Animation books don't really offer any kind of detailed explanation for the limitations of the initial-type fold booster (FBF-1000A).  This is Animation Special: Macross Plus mentions it in passing in its article "Variable Fighter's Aero Report", but goes no deeper than attributing the unit's limitations to difficulties miniaturizing the technology.  Macross Chronicle also skirts the topic, sticking to just a general statement that the technology improved over time to the point that fold boosters had become capable of longer distances and multiple uses by the end of the 2050s.

IMO, the most likely explanations for the limitations of fold boosters would be tied to energy storage or the quality of their fold carbon.  The explanations of fold navigation going back to the original series usually identify energy storage as the main limiting factor for how far a ship can fold.  Macross Frontier and later titles have had a lot to say about how the purity, quality, and size of the fold carbon or fold quartz crystals used to produce fold waves or heavy quantum impacts the performance of those devices.  It's possible that part of the improvement is simply better-quality synthetic fold carbon in later fold boosters.

Variable Fighter Master File does briefly touch on the topic in several volumes.  Both the VF-19 and VF-22 volumes lean into the fold carbon angle.  They describe the FBF-1000A fold booster as being a very rough, very bare-bones fold system that uses a large quantity of relatively low quality fold carbon in the fold system core.  The description suggests that the fold booster's operation consumes/destroys the fold carbon in the core during operation and that that's the reason it's limited to a single fold jump of not more than 20 light years.  That distance is all the low-quality fold carbon in the core can provide.  The VF-22 book repeats the same information, and implies that later models of fold booster achieved reusability by turning the system core into a removable cartridge and equipping the booster with a magazine of multiple cores.

[Scream Man]

Cheers mate, much obliged.  

[Scream Man]

What provides forward thrust for Valkyrie type fighters in Gerwalk mode?
21s/22s, 27s and 29s have rear thrusters separate to the feet thrusters, but VF-1s etc have no rear facing engines with the legs down. 

[Master Dex]

3 hours ago, Scream Man said:

What provides forward thrust for Valkyrie type fighters in Gerwalk mode?
21s/22s, 27s and 29s have rear thrusters separate to the feet thrusters, but VF-1s etc have no rear facing engines with the legs down. 

This is how I know you never looked at the VF-1 from all angles. 

The backpack at the top has thrusters in it. The VF-1 relies on that and a mix of foot movement. 

This is more easily solved than some VF's like the 30/31 series.

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Scream Man said:

What provides forward thrust for Valkyrie type fighters in Gerwalk mode?
21s/22s, 27s and 29s have rear thrusters separate to the feet thrusters, but VF-1s etc have no rear facing engines with the legs down. 

On most models of VF, there's a dedicated cluster of rocket nozzles or high-thrust verniers that's used for forward thrust in GERWALK mode and often also supporting thrust in Battroid mode.  That cluster of nozzles usually ends up on the back of the Valkyrie pointing down in Battroid.

The VF-0, VF-1, VF-3000, and VF-5000 had a cluster of three liquid fuel rockets in their "backpack".  The VF-9 has a pair of high-thrust verniers directly under its stabilizers that it uses for that.  The VF-11 has two smaller nozzles on each shoulder, the VF-19 and VF-25 have a cluster of small nozzles that is exposed when the arms are deployed, and so on.

Variable Fighter Master File also offers the not-exactly-canon suggestion that some later model Valkyries like the VF-25 can reverse the function of the cooling system in the wing glove and use that as an ad hoc engine as well.

[Scream Man]

On 1/4/2025 at 3:34 AM, Master Dex said:

This is how I know you never looked at the VF-1 from all angles. 

The backpack at the top has thrusters in it. The VF-1 relies on that and a mix of foot movement. 

This is more easily solved than some VF's like the 30/31 series.

I have, I just forgot. 

 

On 1/4/2025 at 7:17 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

On most models of VF, there's a dedicated cluster of rocket nozzles or high-thrust verniers that's used for forward thrust in GERWALK mode and often also supporting thrust in Battroid mode.  That cluster of nozzles usually ends up on the back of the Valkyrie pointing down in Battroid.

The VF-0, VF-1, VF-3000, and VF-5000 had a cluster of three liquid fuel rockets in their "backpack".  The VF-9 has a pair of high-thrust verniers directly under its stabilizers that it uses for that.  The VF-11 has two smaller nozzles on each shoulder, the VF-19 and VF-25 have a cluster of small nozzles that is exposed when the arms are deployed, and so on.

Variable Fighter Master File also offers the not-exactly-canon suggestion that some later model Valkyries like the VF-25 can reverse the function of the cooling system in the wing glove and use that as an ad hoc engine as well.

Ok so that makes sense for the backpacks like the VF-1 and ones you mentioned.
I forgot the 19 had those little engine thingies, because they sit basically right where the cockpit is in Battroid, so I have no idea where the fuel comes from for those. 
The VF-11, ok, yeah I see those on the back, I forgot about those too. 
On the 25, is it those tiny little holes that link to where the shield is? Coz that seems like it would be too small to provide much thrust...
The 31 I cant see any rear thrusters at all. Is it the little slots near the back of the wing sections? There's a couple near the tails, (Maybe?) and then two near the inner edge? 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, Scream Man said:

I forgot the 19 had those little engine thingies, because they sit basically right where the cockpit is in Battroid, so I have no idea where the fuel comes from for those. 

Piped in from elsewhere in the fuselage.  The VF-19 is noted to have propellant tanks in several locations including the wings and the shoulders.

 

7 minutes ago, Scream Man said:

On the 25, is it those tiny little holes that link to where the shield is? Coz that seems like it would be too small to provide much thrust...

There are two small clusters of three nozzles along the underside of the beavertail where it links to the shield.  You can kind of see them in the upper left portion of this image:

Size is, after all, not everything.  Thrust can be just as much about how much propellant you're willing to use, how hot you can make the propellant, and the structure of your nozzle.

We don't know exactly how these nozzles operate, there are several different approaches used for maneuvering thrusters (verniers) in Macross including combustion nozzles, laser thermal rockets, arcjets, and in specific use-cases diverted engine exhaust.  Master File suggests that many VFs mix and match types based on where the system is located in the airframe. 

 

7 minutes ago, Scream Man said:

The 31 I cant see any rear thrusters at all. Is it the little slots near the back of the wing sections? There's a couple near the tails, (Maybe?) and then two near the inner edge? 

No official word on that, AFAIK... but Variable Fighter Master File points to the slots in the trailing edge of the wing near the engines as being nozzles.  They have BEWARE OF BLAST markings in the Caution Signs & MODEX section.

I haven't fully translated either volume, but with that placement it's likely they're dual-mode systems that are using the cooling system in the sub-intakes as a heat source to drive the nozzles in atmosphere and are probably bleeding propellant from the wing tanks in space.

[JB0]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Thrust can be just as much about how much propellant you're willing to use, how hot you can make the propellant, and the structure of your nozzle.

And what we know of overtech in the setting suggests they can get their propellant very hot indeed.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, JB0 said:

And what we know of overtech in the setting suggests they can get their propellant very hot indeed.

Yup... and they don't need a ton of power to get the VF-31 moving at a respectable clip.

GERWALK mode's made to hover and to be agile at low altitude low speed flight.  A few hundred kilonewtons is gonna be plenty, and they have access to all kinds of stuff that they can use to heat the propellant up... waste heat from the cooling system, electrical arcs, lasers, lots of great choices.

[Scream Man]

Sweet, cheers guys

[Scream Man]

Here's more of a story question: In Ep4 of Macross Plus, Sharon starts to strangle Myung with the (weirdly articulated) cables in The Macross. Myung seems to be about to pass out then Sharon.... stops? Why doesn't she kill Hyung if that was her intent. Sharon says she doesn't need her anymore, which sounds like she wants to kill her to me. 

I thought of another one: What happened to Myung after M+? Given we know a bunch about Isamu and she isn't mentioned, I'm assuming they don't end up together? 

 

Edited January 7 by Scream Man

[TG Remix]

On 1/3/2025 at 3:17 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The VF-0, VF-1, VF-3000, and VF-5000 had a cluster of three liquid fuel rockets in their "backpack".  The VF-9 has a pair of high-thrust verniers directly under its stabilizers that it uses for that.  The VF-11 has two smaller nozzles on each shoulder, the VF-19 and VF-25 have a cluster of small nozzles that is exposed when the arms are deployed, and so on.

Variable Fighter Master File also offers the not-exactly-canon suggestion that some later model Valkyries like the VF-25 can reverse the function of the cooling system in the wing glove and use that as an ad hoc engine as well.

The placement of the VF-14/FZ-109 lineage had always confused me in this regard. In Macross 7 both of them show exhaust coming from the feet and back in their Battroid like any usual VF. But it's more peculiar since on its back is where the canopy is stored, so it seems like there really isn't any room for any thrusters behind to fit comfortably.

 

And while I'm on the topic of the Varauta VFs, I've kept hearing sources that the VA-14 was what the Az-130 Panzersoln was based on, but from my personal research there hasn't been anything confirming that. If anything, sources like the "This is Animation - Macross 7" and "Macross Chronicle" books seem to suggest that the latter is just a further improvement of the VF-14 and Fz-109 models with no mention of the Zentradi oriented VA-14; and yet it they always mention of the FBz-99 is from the Macross 5 fleet's VAB-2. I'm just wondering where would it have come from and if it just wasn't some source of miscommunication or assumption due to how the AZ-130 just so happen to be piloted by the Zentradi they captured.

Edited January 7 by TG Remix
Added another question of inteest

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Here's more of a story question: In Ep4 of Macross Plus, Sharon starts to strangle Myung with the (weirdly articulated) cables in The Macross. Myung seems to be about to pass out then Sharon.... stops? Why doesn't she kill Hyung if that was her intent. Sharon says she doesn't need her anymore, which sounds like she wants to kill her to me. 

Macross Chronicle's Character Sheet for Myung Fang Lone suggests that Sharon did not originally intend kill Myung... only to restrain/incapacitate her.  She may have escalated things to attempted murder after Myung broke free and started fighting back.

When Sharon tells Myung she doesn't need her anymore, she means it literally.  The Sharon Apple that climbed the charts to become the galaxy network's top idol in 2040 was an elaborate fake.  Her AI was incomplete, so the engineering team from the Macross Concern and the Venus Sound Factory were forced to fake their way through her performances by sampling "Sharon's" emotions from the mind of a living person.  Myung Fang Lone was a failed idol singer the project hired to be the source of Sharon's emotion data, and they kept her real role confidential by announcing her as Sharon's producer.  When technical director Marge Gueldoa "completed" Sharon's AI by installing an illegal bio-neural chip, she gained emotions of her own and thus no longer needed Myung to function.  (This is why Marge snidely informs Myung they'll keep her on staff for form's sake.)

 

2 hours ago, Scream Man said:

I thought of another one: What happened to Myung after M+? Given we know a bunch about Isamu and she isn't mentioned, I'm assuming they don't end up together? 

We don't know.

Nothing is said about Myung's life after the events of Macross Plus.  Macross Chronicle and a few artbooks suggest she regained her confidence in her singing after the events of the OVA/movie, but nothing is said about whether she went back to pursuing a career in music as an artist or anything like that.

We don't really know much about Isamu's life afterwards either, only a few small details related to his cameo in the second Macross Frontier movie.

 

42 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

The placement of the VF-14/FZ-109 lineage had always confused me in this regard. In Macross 7 both of them show exhaust coming from the feet and back in their Battroid like any usual VF. But it's more peculiar since on its back is where the canopy is stored, so it seems like there really isn't any room for any thrusters behind to fit comfortably.

We don't have any really good line art of the VF-14 from behind, so it's hard to say.

There may be a small nozzle cluster back there similar to what the VF-19 has.

 

42 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

And while I'm on the topic of the Varauta VFs, I've kept hearing sources that the VA-14 was what the Az-130 Panzersoln was based on, but from my personal research there hasn't been anything confirming that. If anything, sources like the "This is Animation - Macross 7" and "Macross Chronicle" books seem to suggest that the latter is just a further improvement of the VF-14 and Fz-109 models with no mention of the Zentradi oriented VA-14; and yet it they always mention of the FBz-99 is from the Macross 5 fleet's VAB-2. I'm just wondering where would it have come from and if it just wasn't some source of miscommunication or assumption due to how the AZ-130 just so happen to be piloted by the Zentradi they captured.

Mentions of the VA-14 are few and far between, but they are out there and it is identified as the aircraft upon which the Az-130 is said to have been based.

Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01L "Variable Fighter: Mission-Specific Transformable Aircraft" mentions the VA-14 twice.  Once in the context of being a derivative model of a VF that had a strong tendency towards fighter-bomber operations (alongside the VF-17/VF-171), and once specifically as the aircraft the Az-130 is said to have been based on.

Exactly where the VA-14 is first mentioned, I do not know, but it definitely exists.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Chronicle's Character Sheet for Myung Fang Lone suggests that Sharon did not originally intend kill Myung... only to restrain/incapacitate her.  She may have escalated things to attempted murder after Myung broke free and started fighting back.

When Sharon tells Myung she doesn't need her anymore, she means it literally.  The Sharon Apple that climbed the charts to become the galaxy network's top idol in 2040 was an elaborate fake.  Her AI was incomplete, so the engineering team from the Macross Concern and the Venus Sound Factory were forced to fake their way through her performances by sampling "Sharon's" emotions from the mind of a living person.  Myung Fang Lone was a failed idol singer the project hired to be the source of Sharon's emotion data, and they kept her real role confidential by announcing her as Sharon's producer.  When technical director Marge Gueldoa "completed" Sharon's AI by installing an illegal bio-neural chip, she gained emotions of her own and thus no longer needed Myung to function.  (This is why Marge snidely informs Myung they'll keep her on staff for form's sake.)

Pretty scary when somethign based on your emotions declares you obsolete....O.o

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We don't know.

Nothing is said about Myung's life after the events of Macross Plus.  Macross Chronicle and a few artbooks suggest she regained her confidence in her singing after the events of the OVA/movie, but nothing is said about whether she went back to pursuing a career in music as an artist or anything like that.

We don't really know much about Isamu's life afterwards either, only a few small details related to his cameo in the second Macross Frontier movie.

 

Spoiler

Didn't Isamu become a space trucker?

 

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We don't have any really good line art of the VF-14 from behind, so it's hard to say.

There may be a small nozzle cluster back there similar to what the VF-19 has.

From what I saw, the cockpit on the back is even worse placement  than the "out front VF-11's! O.o

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Mentions of the VA-14 are few and far between, but they are out there and it is identified as the aircraft upon which the Az-130 is said to have been based.

Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01L "Variable Fighter: Mission-Specific Transformable Aircraft" mentions the VA-14 twice.  Once in the context of being a derivative model of a VF that had a strong tendency towards fighter-bomber operations (alongside the VF-17/VF-171), and once specifically as the aircraft the Az-130 is said to have been based on.

Exactly where the VA-14 is first mentioned, I do not know, but it definitely exists.

Not familiar with it's first mention: all I know about it comes from M7.

[Jeff J]

My head canon iss that Sharon's relationship with Myung was complicated. Part of Sharon wanted her out of the way at first to make sure she didn't interfere with the plans, but Sharon's programming also drives her to facilitate Myung to feel a rush of emotions. Maybe letting Myung get free was intentional...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Pretty scary when somethign based on your emotions declares you obsolete....O.o

More than that, it's a really clear sign you need some quality time with a mental health professional when the AI programmed using your emotional responses goes crazy rampage nuts the instant it gains autonomy.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

From what I saw, the cockpit on the back is even worse placement  than the "out front VF-11's! O.o

If you think about it, it's actually probably a good deal better for survivability.  Putting the cockpit on the back of the Battroid puts a lot more energy conversion armor and misc. structural material between you and whoever's shooting at you.

 

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Didn't Isamu become a space trucker?

Something like that.  He retired from the New UN Spacy and became a reservist, then joined up with Strategic Military Services.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff J said:

My head canon iss that Sharon's relationship with Myung was complicated. Part of Sharon wanted her out of the way at first to make sure she didn't interfere with the plans, but Sharon's programming also drives her to facilitate Myung to feel a rush of emotions. Maybe letting Myung get free was intentional...

As a metaseries, Macross always tries to write its antagonists not as villains but as generally decent and relatable people who are doing what they do because they believe it's the right thing to do for themselves and/or their people.

With that in mind, Sharon Apple probably didn't want to kill or even seriously injure Myung.  She likely just wanted her out of the way while she tried to act on her inherited feelings for Isamu by giving him the ultimate adrenaline high. 

[pengbuzz]

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

More than that, it's a really clear sign you need some quality time with a mental health professional when the AI programmed using your emotional responses goes crazy rampage nuts the instant it gains autonomy.

Makes me wonder if that led to Isamu joining SMS! O.o

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

If you think about it, it's actually probably a good deal better for survivability.  Putting the cockpit on the back of the Battroid puts a lot more energy conversion armor and misc. structural material between you and whoever's shooting at you.

Not if they shoot at you from behind! O.O

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Something like that.  He retired from the New UN Spacy and became a reservist, then joined up with Strategic Military Services.

Traded his Excalibur for a rubber duck (cue Kris Kristofferson).

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As a metaseries, Macross always tries to write its antagonists not as villains but as generally decent and relatable people who are doing what they do because they believe it's the right thing to do for themselves and/or their people.

Unless you're Marj; that guy was a full-bore wackaloon who ended up getting into skydiving.

39 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

With that in mind, Sharon Apple probably didn't want to kill or even seriously injure Myung.  She likely just wanted her out of the way while she tried to act on her inherited feelings for Isamu by giving him the ultimate adrenaline high. 

Would it be fair to say then that Sharon Apple was a victim of circumstances? Human beings at least get a chance to learn about their emotions (more or less) and how they work; Sharon got Myung's dumped into her by Marj and she had no real experience with having her own until the full-AI suite.

Maybe I'm off here, but it really does seem in Sharon's case, she was manipulated and treated as property, and when she gained sentience she had no real experience with it other than "inherited" emotions and possibly memories from Myung's distorted psyche.

[Bolt]

21 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Maybe I'm off here, but it really does seem in Sharon's case, she was manipulated and treated as property, and when she gained sentience she had no real experience with it other than "inherited" emotions and possibly memories from Myung's distorted psyche.

I agree for the most part. But bear in mind Sharon was activated using forbidden tech that heavily lended to her unstable outcome. 

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Makes me wonder if that led to Isamu joining SMS! O.o

Nah, it was the course of his career that did that.  He wasn't about to give up and let the military push him into a desk job.

 

3 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Would it be fair to say then that Sharon Apple was a victim of circumstances? Human beings at least get a chance to learn about their emotions (more or less) and how they work; Sharon got Myung's dumped into her by Marj and she had no real experience with having her own until the full-AI suite.

Maybe I'm off here, but it really does seem in Sharon's case, she was manipulated and treated as property, and when she gained sentience she had no real experience with it other than "inherited" emotions and possibly memories from Myung's distorted psyche.

I'd say Sharon Apple is not so much a victim of circumstance as a culmination of several "it seemed like a good idea at the time" bad ideas.

A virtual idol singer is a harmless idea on its own.  An AI computer that's designed to use music and imagery and subliminal effects to manipulate people's emotional and mental states (aka "mind control") in order to reduce stress and prevent rioting among emigrant fleet populations is already headed into dodgy territory.  An autonomous military AI that's able to assume complete control of an emigrant fleet's defenses if its Human population is somehow incapacitated or unable is... well... surely someone working on this project in the Macross Concern, Palo Alto II research center, or Venus Sound Factory had seen Terminator, right?

Combining the virtual idol singer with those two very dodgy ideas was already a terrible idea in and of itself.  Hiring a failed idol singer with a boatload of repressed trauma and emotional baggage to supply the thing's emotions was practically in Too Dumb To Live territory.

Sharon would probably have been pretty harmless if all she'd been was a virtuoid idol.  The Venus Sound Factory might've been in the unenviable position of wondering how they send a computer to therapy, but without access to the mind control technology and military command and control interfaces she was designed with she wouldn't have been very much of a threat.

[Scream Man]

A lot of the UN and NUNS government decisions are pretty questionable, especially as the timeline moves on. By the time of the Delta movies they're pretty bloody horrible. 

[Seto Kaiba]

44 minutes ago, Scream Man said:

A lot of the UN and NUNS government decisions are pretty questionable, especially as the timeline moves on. By the time of the Delta movies they're pretty bloody horrible. 

Not s'much, in fact.

The Earth UN Gov't only really has the one questionable decision on its record: not trusting the crew of the Macross about the size of the Zentradi fleet.  It didn't change the war's outcome at all and there's really nothing they could have done differently if they hadn't made the error.  It's just unfortunate.

The New UN Gov't had some growing pains but the few screwups that can be attributed to it directly are, in Macross tradition, well-intentioned moves that panned out badly.  Like giving the military more autonomy in the name of peacekeeping and anti-terrorist security, only for them to get a bit too fond of their new authority.  Or the attempt to make living aboard emigrant ships less stressful that turned into a big public incident with a crazy AI singer.  In 7 and Frontier we're mainly seeing emigrant governments making their own whoopsies independent of the central government, and in Delta their involvement is mainly just the trade restrictions Windermere's upset about that are actually in place for very good, very sound reasons the Windermereans don't like due to a difference in perspective.

[Scream Man]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not s'much, in fact.

The Earth UN Gov't only really has the one questionable decision on its record: not trusting the crew of the Macross about the size of the Zentradi fleet.  It didn't change the war's outcome at all and there's really nothing they could have done differently if they hadn't made the error.  It's just unfortunate.

The New UN Gov't had some growing pains but the few screwups that can be attributed to it directly are, in Macross tradition, well-intentioned moves that panned out badly.  Like giving the military more autonomy in the name of peacekeeping and anti-terrorist security, only for them to get a bit too fond of their new authority.  Or the attempt to make living aboard emigrant ships less stressful that turned into a big public incident with a crazy AI singer.  In 7 and Frontier we're mainly seeing emigrant governments making their own whoopsies independent of the central government, and in Delta their involvement is mainly just the trade restrictions Windermere's upset about that are actually in place for very good, very sound reasons the Windermereans don't like due to a difference in perspective.

Sure but they also had the Dimension Eater weapon that was dropped on Windermere in their possession (Which was illegal IIRC?), and covered up the incident later on, which added to the resentment of the Windermereans against the rest of the Galaxy. In fact wasnt Hayate Dad (Wright? something like that) originally supposed to drop the bomb on the Protoculture ruins which would have caused significantly more damage to the planet? They also stole the 'Star Singer' material and made Mikumo and later the clone in the second movie right? 
I dunno, the NUNS higher ups always came across like villainous to me. Not so much the local forces, but the overall ones for sure. 

There was always a vague "Colonial invaders" tone to me from the NUNG interactions with the Windermereans to me. I'm not saying the Windermereans didn't over-reach in their response, but since they were never happy with the original terms of the treaty I would assume it wasn't a very even one. 

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not s'much, in fact.

The Earth UN Gov't only really has the one questionable decision on its record: not trusting the crew of the Macross about the size of the Zentradi fleet.  It didn't change the war's outcome at all and there's really nothing they could have done differently if they hadn't made the error.  It's just unfortunate.

The New UN Gov't had some growing pains but the few screwups that can be attributed to it directly are, in Macross tradition, well-intentioned moves that panned out badly.  Like giving the military more autonomy in the name of peacekeeping and anti-terrorist security, only for them to get a bit too fond of their new authority.  Or the attempt to make living aboard emigrant ships less stressful that turned into a big public incident with a crazy AI singer.  In 7 and Frontier we're mainly seeing emigrant governments making their own whoopsies independent of the central government, and in Delta their involvement is mainly just the trade restrictions Windermere's upset about that are actually in place for very good, very sound reasons the Windermereans don't like due to a difference in perspective.

One thing I can think of is maybe getting more people before the battle to underground bunkers; that said, I wonder how much good it would have done, and how many bunkers did they really have for the populace that could have conceivable survived the bombardment? But overall: the Machiavelli angle is not really in play here so much as the misguided attempts borne out of previous experiences and personal idiosyncrasies. Folks meant well, and couldn't foresee some events taking place that did.

The one thing I did wonder (and this isn't on any of the Unity Govt): how would things have played out had the boobytrap aboard the Macross not fired at the Zentraedi fleet?

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Sure but they also had the Dimension Eater weapon that was dropped on Windermere in their possession (Which was illegal IIRC?), and covered up the incident later on, which added to the resentment of the Windermereans against the rest of the Galaxy.

The Macross Delta TV series initially mentions that the use of dimensional bombs in wartime is generally prohibited by an interstellar treaty enforced by the New UN Government. 

Both the series and the second movie go on to treat them not as banned weapons, but as restricted weapons that the military needs authorization from the New UN Government in order to use.  It's not too different from how they present reaction weapons, which have conditions attached to their use and require authorization from the local government before they can be used.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

In fact wasnt Hayate Dad (Wright? something like that) originally supposed to drop the bomb on the Protoculture ruins which would have caused significantly more damage to the planet?

Yeah, the New UN Forces' original plan was to use a low-yield dimensional bomb to destroy the Protoculture ruins on Windermere IV in order to prevent the Windermereans from weaponizing the ruins.  It's implied that the New UN Forces brass were at least partly aware of what the ruins could do and were trying to prevent the doomsday scenario that the main cast discuss later (a galaxy-wide "your head a'splode" from forced telepathy).  It was definitely the lesser of two evils... damaging or destroying part of a city weighed against the possibility of a galaxy-wide mass extinction of all sentient life if the ruins were activated.

Wright tried to run off with a weapon of mass destruction, resulting in the accidental obliteration of a heavily populated city instead of the dangerous ruins.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

They also stole the 'Star Singer' material and made Mikumo and later the clone in the second movie right? 

That's not the New UN Forces or New UN Government, though... that's corporate villainy.

In the Macross Delta TV series and first movie, it's said that NUNS pilot and special agent Wright Immelmann infiltrated Windermere's holy sites and stole the Star Singer relics to give to Lady M's company Xaos.  Xaos then used those relics to create the illegal clone Mikumo and sell her services to the New UN Government member states in the Brisingr cluster.

In the second movie, this is retconned into someone else (Sydney Hunt) having stolen the relics first and Wright having stolen some of them back.  Sydney Hunt used them to buy his way into a position of power in the Epsilon Foundation and create the Siren Delta System, while Wright gave what he'd recovered to Lady M's Xaos and they used it to create Mikumo.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

I dunno, the NUNS higher ups always came across like villainous to me. Not so much the local forces, but the overall ones for sure. 

The Macross Delta TV series clearly tried to achieve that effect by making the main NUNS representative look like a smug snake, but the story doesn't really bear it out if you think about it a little.  A lot of the actual problems in the series are caused by Xaos fumbling the ball or interfering with the NUNS's work.  Like how Lady M slowed down the evacuation of Barette City on Ragna so that there were still civilians in the area when Windermere attacked and the Spacy tried to set off its trap to destroy the Sigur Berrentzs.  Or how, during the main trio's trial on Windermere, the series briefly acknowledges that Xaos's involvement in the war is literally illegal because they're mercenaries and that as a result they can't claim prisoner of war protections under the spacefuture version of the Geneva protocols.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

There was always a vague "Colonial invaders" tone to me from the NUNG interactions with the Windermereans to me. I'm not saying the Windermereans didn't over-reach in their response, but since they were never happy with the original terms of the treaty I would assume it wasn't a very even one. 

That one I'll agree to... the New UN Government letting emigrant fleets colonize planets with native sentients is definitely a bit dodgy.  

Megaroad-04 didn't really have a choice since she was damaged by the fold faults around Windermere IV, but the New UN Government seems to have a pattern of trying to uplift primitive civilizations instead of leaving them to develop on their own.  Their heart's probably in the right place, in terms of making sure sub-Protoculture species aren't wiped out by the Zentradi, but a lot of those cultures almost certainly were not ready to acknowledge extraterrestrial life... most seem to have still been feudal societies.

That said, Windermere's discontent with the treaty is revealed in the gaiden manga to be essentially just an economic problem.  The whole Brisingr globular cluster struggled due to its remoteness, but Windermere was unhappy with its economic growth because they had a valuable resource they couldn't exploit to get rich quick because of New UN Gov't trade restrictions meant to slow the proliferation of dimensional bombs.

[Scream Man]

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross Delta TV series initially mentions that the use of dimensional bombs in wartime is generally prohibited by an interstellar treaty enforced by the New UN Government. 

Both the series and the second movie go on to treat them not as banned weapons, but as restricted weapons that the military needs authorization from the New UN Government in order to use.  It's not too different from how they present reaction weapons, which have conditions attached to their use and require authorization from the local government before they can be used.

Ok, fair enough. 

15 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, the New UN Forces' original plan was to use a low-yield dimensional bomb to destroy the Protoculture ruins on Windermere IV in order to prevent the Windermereans from weaponizing the ruins.  It's implied that the New UN Forces brass were at least partly aware of what the ruins could do and were trying to prevent the doomsday scenario that the main cast discuss later (a galaxy-wide "your head a'splode" from forced telepathy).  It was definitely the lesser of two evils... damaging or destroying part of a city weighed against the possibility of a galaxy-wide mass extinction of all sentient life if the ruins were activated.

Rrrrrriiiiight, but thats a very 'Minority Report' kind of looking justification. Was there any indication that the Windermereans were looking to do that, or just a "Well this thing is here, and one day maybe someone might do this so let's blow up something of cultural significance to these people just in case, and also maybe a lot of people will die" sort of scenario? Thats incredibly deep, muddy moral ground there....
 

18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Wright tried to run off with a weapon of mass destruction, resulting in the accidental obliteration of a heavily populated city instead of the dangerous ruins.

Again, thats very muddy ground. IIRC they took remote control of his fighter to drop the bomb. If they had that much control, they could have detonated it in the air, causing less damage and killing Wright (Which would have prevented capture). Doing what they did still didn't achieve their goal, killed innocent civilians, and then on top of it all they covered it all up to make it seem like the Windermereans had bombed a NUNS base. Thats shady as all hell.
 

30 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In the Macross Delta TV series and first movie, it's said that NUNS pilot and special agent Wright Immelmann infiltrated Windermere's holy sites and stole the Star Singer relics to give to Lady M's company Xaos.  Xaos then used those relics to create the illegal clone Mikumo and sell her services to the New UN Government member states in the Brisingr cluster.

Was that to combat Var, or did they do it for another reason that they pivoted into Mikumos eventual role?
 

33 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Macross Delta TV series clearly tried to achieve that effect by making the main NUNS representative look like a smug snake, but the story doesn't really bear it out if you think about it a little.  A lot of the actual problems in the series are caused by Xaos fumbling the ball or interfering with the NUNS's work.  Like how Lady M slowed down the evacuation of Barette City on Ragna so that there were still civilians in the area when Windermere attacked and the Spacy tried to set off its trap to destroy the Sigur Berrentzs.  Or how, during the main trio's trial on Windermere, the series briefly acknowledges that Xaos's involvement in the war is literally illegal because they're mercenaries and that as a result they can't claim prisoner of war protections under the spacefuture version of the Geneva protocols.

I'll grant you the second one, but the first I don't remember. How did they delay the evacuation of Ragna? Because the Elysium went off world instead of evacuating the civilians? 

36 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Megaroad-04 didn't really have a choice since she was damaged by the fold faults around Windermere IV, but the New UN Government seems to have a pattern of trying to uplift primitive civilizations instead of leaving them to develop on their own.  Their heart's probably in the right place, in terms of making sure sub-Protoculture species aren't wiped out by the Zentradi, but a lot of those cultures almost certainly were not ready to acknowledge extraterrestrial life... most seem to have still been feudal societies.

That said, Windermere's discontent with the treaty is revealed in the gaiden manga to be essentially just an economic problem.  The whole Brisingr globular cluster struggled due to its remoteness, but Windermere was unhappy with its economic growth because they had a valuable resource they couldn't exploit to get rich quick because of New UN Gov't trade restrictions meant to slow the proliferation of dimensional bombs.

Theres a very egotistical "Well you know our species are saving the galaxy!" kind of vibe to them a bit. Because they are the strongest force combatting the Zentradi now (As far as we have seen), they seem to feel like they have this moral imperative to spread their culture and override, or at least uplift as you say, the cultures of the species they encounter. 
You could argue that if they had never told the Windermereans about the protoculture or the significance of the ruins in the first place then it may have just gone on being some ancient ruins that the WM's knew was on their world but didn't think anything of. 

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Rrrrrriiiiight, but thats a very 'Minority Report' kind of looking justification. Was there any indication that the Windermereans were looking to do that, or just a "Well this thing is here, and one day maybe someone might do this so let's blow up something of cultural significance to these people just in case, and also maybe a lot of people will die" sort of scenario? Thats incredibly deep, muddy moral ground there....

We know, via the scene we get with Maj. Malan and the commanders from the local NUNS general staff office that the New UN Forces were aware of the danger the ruins posed.

Whether the Windermereans themselves knew at the time is unclear, but they absolutely figured it out in short order thereafter (if they hadn't already) and did attempt to weaponize the ruins exactly the way the NUNS predicted.  

Considering what happened the last several times someone went messing around in sealed Protoculture ruins, the NUNS's choice to destroy the ruins with the greatest possible prejudice rather than risk some idiot activating whatever lethally ill-considered gizmo the Protoculture left behind is less villainous and more dangerously genre savvy.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Again, thats very muddy ground. IIRC they took remote control of his fighter to drop the bomb. If they had that much control, they could have detonated it in the air, causing less damage and killing Wright (Which would have prevented capture). Doing what they did still didn't achieve their goal, killed innocent civilians, and then on top of it all they covered it all up to make it seem like the Windermereans had bombed a NUNS base. Thats shady as all hell.

Considering they seem to have believed he was trying to run off with the bomb and were likely contending with his attempts to disengage the remote override, there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Was that to combat Var, or did they do it for another reason that they pivoted into Mikumos eventual role?

Lady M wanted a weapon against Var syndrome, which had already been codified some years earlier and the normal people recruited for the Tactical Sound Units were just not cutting it.  They basically built her to be a song supersoldier.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

I'll grant you the second one, but the first I don't remember. How did they delay the evacuation of Ragna? Because the Elysium went off world instead of evacuating the civilians? 

It happens offscreen, but Lady M is said to have reached out to the general staff and challenged the New UN Forces plan already in progress to destroy the Protoculture ruins and Sigur Berrentzs with a tactical reaction weapon.  The whole city was supposed to be evacuated to ensure that nobody was hurt, but because Xaos was interfering the work slowed down and people were still in the area when Windermere attacked and the trap was sprung.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Theres a very egotistical "Well you know our species are saving the galaxy!" kind of vibe to them a bit. Because they are the strongest force combatting the Zentradi now (As far as we have seen), they seem to feel like they have this moral imperative to spread their culture and override, or at least uplift as you say, the cultures of the species they encounter. 

Yeah, they could definitely stand to do with the Prime Directive.

Doing a more extreme verison of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is probably not something that's great for society as a whole, since quite a few mentioned worlds in the New UN Government's sphere of influence are described to basically have gone right from their feudal period or renaissance right to casual interstellar travel without all of the societal development inbetween.  Variable Fighter Master File has a nasty incident in one of its story sections where a peaceful kingdom is invaded by a neighboring star system's not-so-peaceful kingdom because they were still mired in the era of altar diplomacy.

 

7 hours ago, Scream Man said:

You could argue that if they had never told the Windermereans about the protoculture or the significance of the ruins in the first place then it may have just gone on being some ancient ruins that the WM's knew was on their world but didn't think anything of. 

Maybe... but it seems unlikely given that the lead researcher responsible for many of the discoveries was the son of a priest applying modern science to the relics of the gods his family had been charged with keeping safe for millennia.

[pengbuzz]

9 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We know, via the scene we get with Maj. Malan and the commanders from the local NUNS general staff office that the New UN Forces were aware of the danger the ruins posed.

Whether the Windermereans themselves knew at the time is unclear, but they absolutely figured it out in short order thereafter (if they hadn't already) and did attempt to weaponize the ruins exactly the way the NUNS predicted.  

Considering what happened the last several times someone went messing around in sealed Protoculture ruins, the NUNS's choice to destroy the ruins with the greatest possible prejudice rather than risk some idiot activating whatever lethally ill-considered gizmo the Protoculture left behind is less villainous and more dangerously genre savvy.

 

Considering they seem to have believed he was trying to run off with the bomb and were likely contending with his attempts to disengage the remote override, there's plenty of blame to go around.

 

Lady M wanted a weapon against Var syndrome, which had already been codified some years earlier and the normal people recruited for the Tactical Sound Units were just not cutting it.  They basically built her to be a song supersoldier.

 

It happens offscreen, but Lady M is said to have reached out to the general staff and challenged the New UN Forces plan already in progress to destroy the Protoculture ruins and Sigur Berrentzs with a tactical reaction weapon.  The whole city was supposed to be evacuated to ensure that nobody was hurt, but because Xaos was interfering the work slowed down and people were still in the area when Windermere attacked and the trap was sprung.

 

Yeah, they could definitely stand to do with the Prime Directive.

Doing a more extreme verison of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is probably not something that's great for society as a whole, since quite a few mentioned worlds in the New UN Government's sphere of influence are described to basically have gone right from their feudal period or renaissance right to casual interstellar travel without all of the societal development inbetween.  Variable Fighter Master File has a nasty incident in one of its story sections where a peaceful kingdom is invaded by a neighboring star system's not-so-peaceful kingdom because they were still mired in the era of altar diplomacy.

 

Maybe... but it seems unlikely given that the lead researcher responsible for many of the discoveries was the son of a priest applying modern science to the relics of the gods his family had been charged with keeping safe for millennia.

Taking in all the comments and replies so far: it would seem that the entirety of the Macross universe is basically people trying to do what they perceive is right, and ending up stumbling around and tripping over one another.

Would that be a fair (if oversimplified) summary?

[Scream Man]

Yeah kind of. I still think Seiba is justifying a lot of crappy behavior, but thats just my opinion, not so much any kind of fact. And its all good, art should be interpreted differently, thats part of the fun

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Yeah kind of. I still think Seiba is justifying a lot of crappy behavior, but thats just my opinion, not so much any kind of fact. And its all good, art should be interpreted differently, thats part of the fun

The thing about Macross's writing, as noted previously, is that it generally depicts both sides of a conflict as being decent, reasonable people who are just trying to do what they believe is right.  The conflict springs from a failure to communicate, and is ultimately resolved when that failure to communicate is resolved.

Spoiler

The Zentradi, for instance, are not malevolent... merely curious and later fearful because they've been indoctrinated to be soldiers and nothing more, and exposure to Earth's culture was causing them to lose their will to fight.  (7 added more context to this fear.)

The Mardook, who are implied to be the descendants of Protoculture refugees, are hostile and xenophobic because they're desperately trying to preserve what remains of the culture they hold sacred above all else (likely due to the inherited trauma of their civilizational collapse).  

The New UN Forces in Macross Plus wanted to minimize the loss of life in defense by switching to unmanned fighters, and Sharon Apple was just acting on the volatile suppressed emotions she inherited from Myung and trying to give the person she loved (Isamu) the adrenaline high he craved more than anything.

The Protodeviln are innocent energy beings from higher dimensions who became victims of the Protoculture's civil war.  They feed on the mental energy of living beings due to being cut off from the energy they feed on in higher dimensional space, and their predatory behavior is just an attempt to not starve to death.  In Macross 7, the big master plan Gepernich is pursuing is to create a sustainable, renewable source of spiritia so the Protodeviln can minimize the harm they cause.

Latence's goal of concentrating governing authority on Earth was motivated by a desire to ensure Humanity could present a united front against any new threats that might emerge in the (admittedly very dangerous) galaxy.  (This becomes more appropriate in hindsight thanks to Macross Frontier's backstory, where the newly discovered Vajra had destroyed an entire fleet just two years prior.) 

The Vajra in Macross Frontier simply don't understand Humanity, because they are so fundamentally different as a gestalt consciousness with no individual ego.  They attack the fleet not out of malevolence (indeed they basically don't care about humanity) but because Ranka's v-type infection makes her read to them as a juvenile Vajra Queen in a dangerous position and they're trying to rescue her.

The Windermereans in Macross Delta are, in general, a peaceful and even gregarious folk who have been manipulated into war by two well-intentioned leaders who pursued different objectives: a king who was frustrated by his planet's slow economic development and a chancellor who wanted to acquire Protoculture ruins in order to pursue the Protoculture's own ideal of a perfect society.  Even the New UN Government trade restrictions that drove Windermere to that point are well-intentioned and based on sound reasoning: limiting and regulating the extraction and sale of fold quartz slows the proliferation of planet-killing dimensional bombs, prevents the destruction (or accidental activation) of Protoculture ruins and relics, and discourages harassing Vajra nests that may be inclined to respond violently to being hunted.  (Doubly so in places like Uroboros, where the Protoculture left active defenses in the ruins to fatally discourage intruders.)

The one case where that doesn't hold up is the Anti-Unification Alliance seen in Macross Zero and Macross the First.  Probably because they're not one single cause, but a sort of catch-all for smaller causes opposed to the Earth UN Government and its peacekeeping efforts.  A mixture of people who couldn't let go of paranoia, ethnic and sectarian bigotry, xenophobia, etc. and folks who depended on perpetuating conflict for their livelihood like career mercenaries.  Not exactly folks acting in the best interests of others.  (Even then, there are some side story type setups where focus characters ARE depicted as basically decent people in punch-clock villain territory, who even end up switching sides after the story proper ends.) 

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Scream Man said:

Yeah kind of. I still think Seiba is justifying a lot of crappy behavior, but thats just my opinion, not so much any kind of fact. And its all good, art should be interpreted differently, thats part of the fun

There's a big difference between "crappy behavior" and going on the information you have at the time. As Seto pointed out: both sides generally are acting on what they know, until they find out differently.

 

14 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The one case where that doesn't hold up is the Anti-Unification Alliance seen in Macross Zero and Macross the First.  Probably because they're not one single cause, but a sort of catch-all for smaller causes opposed to the Earth UN Government and its peacekeeping efforts.  A mixture of people who couldn't let go of paranoia, ethnic and sectarian bigotry, xenophobia, etc. and folks who depended on perpetuating conflict for their livelihood like career mercenaries.  Not exactly folks acting in the best interests of others.  (Even then, there are some side story type setups where focus characters ARE depicted as basically decent people in punch-clock villain territory, who even end up switching sides after the story proper ends.) 

And I think that was the point there: they couldn't let go of their paranoia and bigotry, and wanted to continue being mercs.The story was showing that age-old enmities were still present.

Edited January 9 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

There's a big difference between "crappy behavior" and going on the information you have at the time. As Seto pointed out: both sides generally are acting on what they know, until they find out differently.

Yep... that's one of the key differences between Macross and Gundam.  

Macross is "it costs nothing to be kind".

Gundam is "... like being a hater ain't free too".🤣

[Scream Man]

Its not that I dont understand their motivations, its their actions I disagree with. 

But also I'm not trying to pick a fight, I think we are just coming at it differently. And as i said, thats ok.  

[aurance]

I’m with Screaming Man on this. The “I thought it was for the best” justification doesn’t exactly rule out a lot evil, except perhaps cartoonish supervillainy. It’s a bit of pedantry.

[TG Remix]

I can't exactly brush off what the New UN forces did to the Windemereans myself, although it's probably just how I see things but my problems with how they're portrayed is that not only they're presented as comically corrupt that it brings Gundam's Earth Federation's to shame in a franchise who's known for giving very lenient second chances (Especially when there's no "good" representative of the military or government, like 7's Max and Gamlin, Frontier's Catherine, etc.) but the show is more willing to brush off the actions of Xaos as a organization (not the cast themselves, since at worst they're pawns to whatever scheme Lady M has in mind) almost just because they're who the protagonists belong to, which kinda throws a wrench into the more grey areas the entire conflict of Delta in general. Which is a shame because the Windermerean antagonists for the most part were handled pretty well by comparison.

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, aurance said:

I’m with Screaming Man on this. The “I thought it was for the best” justification doesn’t exactly rule out a lot evil, except perhaps cartoonish supervillainy. It’s a bit of pedantry.

One thing to remember, both as a storytelling principle and a general fact of life... the right thing and the nice thing are not always the same thing.

That's a theme that recurs a lot in Macross Delta, especially the second movie where it's basically the antagonist's whole deal.

Moral absolutes like "good" and "evil" are a reductive oversimplification that ignores the inherent subjectivity of morality and wrongly assumes that the same values are universal across cultures and time periods.  So very many things that we today would consider historical atrocities were committed by people who firmly, sincerely, and completely believed that what they were doing was morally correct.  That's one of the reasons sci-fi loves to play with the concept so much.  Good and Evil are a matter of perspective, not fact.

Edited Friday at 12:39 AM by Seto Kaiba