The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

Don't know if this has been answered here, but was the Supervision Army just another Zentraedi clone faction? Were they giant humanoids like the Zentraedi or human size? 

The Supervision Army was an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who were captured, drained of their spiritia, and subjected to mind control by the Protodeviln to sustain the Protodeviln's lives by capturing more sources of spiritia.

[Invid99]

3 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Supervision Army was an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who were captured, drained of their spiritia, and subjected to mind control by the Protodeviln to sustain the Protodeviln's lives by capturing more sources of spiritia.

Okey so they were a mix of giants and human sized personell? 

[pengbuzz]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The Supervision Army was an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who were captured, drained of their spiritia, and subjected to mind control by the Protodeviln to sustain the Protodeviln's lives by capturing more sources of spiritia.

So essentially...Starbucks employees?

[Invid99]

So the Supervision Army might something similar to the Varuta forces?

[Seto Kaiba]

6 hours ago, Invid99 said:

So the Supervision Army might something similar to the Varuta forces?

In principle, the Varauta forces were Supervision Army 2.0.

The main difference - apart from the victims being Human instead of Protoculture - is that when the Protodeviln escaped the second time and brainwashed the New UN Forces survey team and then the colony on the neighboring planet, they were aiming to create a sustainable, renewable source of spiritia instead of simply rampaging across the galaxy.  Gepernich's grand goal was a "Spiritia Farm" that would enable the Protodeviln to be self-sufficient without destroying any (other) civilizations.

[TehPW]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:05 PM, pengbuzz said:

*eats bag of Doritos*

can i share a couple?

after watching that very old episode, I don't think 1st gen VFs are even remotely as challenging as a bred-to-fight Zent soldier in a "fair fight" (the weakness being the pilot, not the machine)

[TehPW]

7 hours ago, Invid99 said:

So the Supervision Army might something similar to the Varuta forces?

WHERE did these images come from (one is from M7TV but where is the source of the latter? fan art?)

[Seto Kaiba]

56 minutes ago, TehPW said:

WHERE did these images come from (one is from M7TV but where is the source of the latter? fan art?)

Macross Chronicle.

You can see one of the prepunched holes for the binders on the left side of the image.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[Invid99]

I wonder if some of the ship and mecha designs of the Varuta army is very much the same as the Supervision ones. The Zentraedi didn't changed that much over the centuries with their vehicles, so maybe it was the same with the Supervision Army. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Invid99

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

I wonder if some of the ship and mecha designs of the Varuta army is very much the same as the Supervision ones.

No, the Varauta forces in Macross 7 are using modified versions of the same ships and mecha they used before their planet (named Libera, according to the recent movie) was taken over by the Protodeviln.

Even Gepernich's huge flagship is just the former flagship of the Varauta NUNS with some modifications.  The Fz-109 is a modified VF-14 Vampire.  The Az-130 is a modified VA-14.  The FBz-99 is a modified VAB-2.  The only original design that the post-Protodeviln Varauta forces had was a large aircraft carrier that is just a stretched version of their standard model.

 

7 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

The Zentraedi didn't changed that much over the centuries with their vehicles, so maybe it was the same with the Supervision Army. 

Contrary to what the name might make you expect, the Supervision Army was not founded as anything like an organized formal military service.

It was a force the Protodeviln threw together out of whatever ships, mecha, and spiritia-drained personnel were on hand and its approach to "recruitment" could best be described as the stuff of vampire action movies.  They would attack Protoculture settlements and anyone who wasn't killed in the fighting would be drained of their spiritia and subjected to mind control for use as soldiers to attack more Protoculture settlements and capture more people.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  The Supervision Army and Varauta Forces are basically legions of ghouls created by space vampires.

Odds are their equipment was initially nothing like standardized and they had little or nothing developed for them.  It was a force made up entirely of captured ships and mecha that were crewed by the Protodeviln's mind-controlled victims.  Millennia of warfare probably saw it deteriorate into something like a standardized force after irreplaceable Protoculture ships were all lost fighting the Zentradi and they were left with the equipment and personnel produced by captured factory satellites.

[RaisingCane]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Even Gepernich's huge flagship is just the former flagship of the Varauta NUNS with some modifications.

Have there ever been any pics of what that ship looked like before it was modified or any reasons given why we've never seen one since?

Edited October 7, 2022 by RaisingCane

[sketchley]

39 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Have there ever been any pics of what that ship looked like before it was modified or any reasons given why we've never seen one since?

No, and while there hasn't been an in-universe reason why we haven't seen one since (aside from the suggestion that it was a one-off), there is Kawamori's general rule of thumb that an enemy ship will always be portrayed as an enemy ship.  His logic is that it prevents confusion in the average viewer.

This is why, for example, DESPITE the Macross Galaxy fleet being human and from Earth, it is never depicted using the spaceships of the hero New Unified Forces (the exception being the flagship, but even that is visually different from the ones on the hero side).  Instead, an entirely new fleet of visually distinct ships was created for it.

Edited October 7, 2022 by sketchley

[Invid99]

Maybe the SDF-1 Supervision Army version looked something like this before it got renovated?

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, Invid99 said:

Maybe the SDF-1 Supervision Army version looked something like this before it got renovated?

Yes, it did.  Exactly like that, in fact... because that art by Kazutaka Miyatake depicts Alien StarShip 1 shortly before she crashed on Earth.

It's based on the production line art that Miyatake drew for the Supervision Army gunship encountered in "Viva Maria" which was said in-series to be the same type as the Macross, and which official publications (e.g. Macross Chronicle) use as art of the Macross's original (pre-refit) appearance.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, sketchley said:

No, and while there hasn't been an in-universe reason why we haven't seen one since (aside from the suggestion that it was a one-off), there is Kawamori's general rule of thumb that an enemy ship will always be portrayed as an enemy ship.  His logic is that it prevents confusion in the average viewer.

It's worth noting that that rule did bend quite a bit in the recent movie, and has had the occasional little deviation here and there in previous works.

[pengbuzz]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yes, it did.  Exactly like that, in fact... because that art by Kazutaka Miyatake depicts Alien StarShip 1 shortly before she crashed on Earth.

It's based on the production line art that Miyatake drew for the Supervision Army gunship encountered in "Viva Maria" which was said in-series to be the same type as the Macross, and which official publications (e.g. Macross Chronicle) use as art of the Macross's original (pre-refit) appearance.

I'll bet at least one Zentraedi officer had this reaction to seeing the SDF-1 post refit:

"Wait...it comes in blue?"

 

In all seriousness though: if the SDF-1 was originally a Supervision Army ship and the Supervision Army was basically whomever they encountered and mind-controlled, then would the Gunship have been a Protoculture design, or someone else's?  I think in DYRL, it was Meltrandi?

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by pengbuzz

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

In all seriousness though: if the SDF-1 was originally a Supervision Army ship and the Supervision Army was basically whomever they encountered and mind-controlled, then would the Gunship have been a Protoculture design, or someone else's?  I think in DYRL, it was Meltrandi?

Well, technically speaking everything the Zentradi use is a "Protoculture design"... but given that the ship was configured to be crewed by giants and there is mention of battle pods recovered from the wreck, it's a very safe bet it was something the Protoculture designed for the Zentradi to use.

Possible explanations for why the class itself is associated with the Supervision Army include that it was manufactured by one specific region of the Protoculture's civilization for the Zentradi fleets protecting them and never achieved widespread adoption, or that the factory satellites for the Zentradi fleets operating around Earth were destroyed long ago and the Supervision Army forces are the only ones still operating that class in that region of the galaxy.

(In DYRL?, its origin was changed to being a Meltrandi ship, as they became stand-ins for the Zentradi's enemies in that in-universe movie.)

[RaisingCane]

15 hours ago, sketchley said:

No, and while there hasn't been an in-universe reason why we haven't seen one since (aside from the suggestion that it was a one-off), there is Kawamori's general rule of thumb that an enemy ship will always be portrayed as an enemy ship.  His logic is that it prevents confusion in the average viewer.

Wouldn't that rule out the allied Zentradi ships we've seen?

[sketchley]

3 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't that rule out the allied Zentradi ships we've seen?

That's why we've seen incredibly few 'allied' ships outside of SDFM/DYRL.  (Macross II doesn't count as Kawamori-san didn't work on it.)

[RaisingCane]

Wouldn't it be logical to assume that allied Zentradi are tasked with recon for the colonization fleets?  Better they encounter hostile Zentradi first, no?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't it be logical to assume that allied Zentradi are tasked with recon for the colonization fleets?  Better they encounter hostile Zentradi first, no?

Granted, it does sound logical at first glance... but it's not the safest option on the table.  Avoidance is.

By the 2030s, emigrant fleets use taskforces of stealth warships to scout ahead of the fleet on its planned course and provide a defensive early warning picket in a wide area of space around the fleet's current position.  Nothing's safer for the civilian population than spotting trouble ahead of time before it spots you and getting out of dodge before that trouble in potentia can detect you or at least before trouble can reach you.  Nobody wants to be caught in a do-or-die defense of an emigrant fleet against a superior force.  That ends poorly way too often, like Macross Galaxy getting wiped out by the Vajra.

Variable Fighter Master File adds a few extra details in the VF-25 book.  Namely, that emigrant fleets making an emergency fold jump to escape a threat will deploy a fold wave jamming unit to mask their departure and that there is a (thankfully little-used) practice of either self-destructing or otherwise destroying ships that cannot escape and are left in imminent danger of falling into Zentradi hands with information about Humanity.

[pengbuzz]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Granted, it does sound logical at first glance... but it's not the safest option on the table.  Avoidance is.

By the 2030s, emigrant fleets use taskforces of stealth warships to scout ahead of the fleet on its planned course and provide a defensive early warning picket in a wide area of space around the fleet's current position.  Nothing's safer for the civilian population than spotting trouble ahead of time before it spots you and getting out of dodge before that trouble in potentia can detect you or at least before trouble can reach you.  Nobody wants to be caught in a do-or-die defense of an emigrant fleet against a superior force.  That ends poorly way too often, like Macross Galaxy getting wiped out by the Vajra.

Variable Fighter Master File adds a few extra details in the VF-25 book.  Namely, that emigrant fleets making an emergency fold jump to escape a threat will deploy a fold wave jamming unit to mask their departure and that there is a (thankfully little-used) practice of either self-destructing or otherwise destroying ships that cannot escape and are left in imminent danger of falling into Zentradi hands with information about Humanity.

So basically, mankind is going to be looking over their collective shoulder for eternity where the Zentraedi are concerned?

[Seto Kaiba]

37 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So basically, mankind is going to be looking over their collective shoulder for eternity where the Zentraedi are concerned?

Assuming humanity doesn't end up destroying itself first or getting destroyed by the Zentradi... yeah, probably.

Emigrant governments are going to need quite a bit of time to build up substantial defense forces that can independently withstand even a Zentradi Branch Fleet's attack.  Even in 2060, all but the emigrant governments with the largest and most powerful defense forces have to call upon their neighbors for reinforcements when they come under attack by a Zentradi branch fleet or other sigificant threat.  The obligation to answer such calls comes up in Macross Delta: the False Songstress when Macross Galaxy sends a distress call in the face of a Vajra attack and in Macross Delta: The White Knight of the Black Wing when Windermere IV's Aerial Knights take a beating helping to repel a Zentradi fleet attacking one of Windermere IV's neighboring systems.  

With most emigrant governments being able to muster only a few dozen to at most a few hundred warships, they're badly outclassed by the sheer scale of Zentradi forces.  It will take quite a while for humanity to be able to deploy a military force on anywhere close to that insane scale or to develop weapons that can sufficiently level that playing field.

(Master File presents a story about a 2030s-era encounter with a very small main fleet of just 120,000 ships that was still time for the brown trousers.  Spica III was wiped out, and the New UN Forces had to draw every available ship and fighter from Earth and all the neighboring systems to wipe the main fleet out before it stumbled on any other worlds in the immediate vicinity of Earth.)

 

[RaisingCane]

No wonder the NUNS seems to be on a perpetual war-footing.  For a long time I thought humanity was safe from the Zentradi because all they'd ever have to do is broadcast some J-pop.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

No wonder the NUNS seems to be on a perpetual war-footing.  For a long time I thought humanity was safe from the Zentradi because all they'd ever have to do is broadcast some J-pop.

Indeed.  The scale of the threat posed by the remaining Zentradi forces really can't be overstated.

Not only are there still approximately 3 million ships of the 4,795,122 ship Boddole Zer main fleet still abroad in the galaxy after retreating from the final battle of humanity's First Space War, there are said to be between 2,000 and 3,000 of the original 5,000+ main fleets still at large.  Each of those main fleets has hundreds or thousands of its branch fleets spread across massive areas of space searching for, and engaging, the Supervision Army.  The best-equipped (or most excessive) emigrant government New UN Forces have the firepower to defeat a branch fleet on their own... the smallest regular operating unit of the Zentradi forces.  Anything much bigger, and the best choice is to tuck tail and run.

The mechanics of fold navigation are a double-edged sword that mostly works in humanity's favor at this stage.  Because it's essentially a form of teleportation by folding higher dimensional space, the odds of chance encounters with the Zentradi are quite low.  Still nonzero, but low enough that humanity is still essentially flying under the radar despite its burgeoning interstellar civilization.

[RaisingCane]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The mechanics of fold navigation are a double-edged sword that mostly works in humanity's favor at this stage.  Because it's essentially a form of teleportation by folding higher dimensional space, the odds of chance encounters with the Zentradi are quite low.  Still nonzero, but low enough that humanity is still essentially flying under the radar despite its burgeoning interstellar civilization.

That's great for mobile fleets, but how do they avoid detection from Zentradi after they've settled on habitable planets?  Do they just accept the risk that they'll be found one day and have to evacuate in the ships that brought them?

I'd still like to see an encounter between the NUNS and the SA.  Without active guidance from any Protodeviln, it'd be interesting to see if they present a different set of challenges to humanity than their erstwhile masters or the Zentradi did.

Edited October 10, 2022 by RaisingCane

[Seto Kaiba]

10 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

That's great for mobile fleets, but how do they avoid detection from Zentradi after they've settled on habitable planets?  Do they just accept the risk that they'll be found one day and have to evacuate in the ships that brought them?

One would assume there are at least some measures taken to minimize the risk of detection once an emigrant fleet settles on a planet.  Nothing is mentioned, AFAIK.  I'd assume a fair amount of it is simply taking appropriate measures so folding ships entering and leaving the system don't attract unwanted attention and maintaining an early warning picket in the space around the system to detect an approaching Zentradi force.  Past a certain point, it's a do-or-die defensive battle and to the New UN Forces credit they do seem to mostly win those when sufficient reinforcements are available.

To a certain extent, there is that element of living with the risk that your planet might one day be found and attacked by a Zentradi fleet.  It's not something that people can really get away from.  It's just kind of the cost of living in the galaxy the Protoculture ruined.  All that's really changed is humanity knows about it now.

 

10 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

I'd still like to see an encounter between the NUNS and the SA.  Without active guidance from any Protodeviln, it'd be interesting to see if they present a different set of challenges to humanity than their creators or the Zentradi did.

I'm not sure that would necessary be any different than an encounter between the New UN Forces and the Zentradi.  The Supervision Army was made up of captured Protoculture and Zentradi, and without cloning facilities for the Protoculture the way there were for the Zentradi it's likely an all-Zentradi force now and using mostly the same equipment which the regular Zentradi forces use.  

The New UN Forces could conceivably have fought the Supervision Army a few times and not even realized it because they're not checking whatever inter-fleet IFF codes that the Zentradi use.

[JB0]

1 hour ago, RaisingCane said:

Do they just accept the risk that they'll be found one day and have to evacuate in the ships that brought them?

They're more of a force of nature in terms of scale and predictability.

You live in California, you just accept that the ground moves and sometimes houses fall down. Stuff happens.

You live in Oklahoma, you just accept that sometimes thunderstoms get out of hand and the wind might throw a car through your front door before throwing your roof into the neighbor's yard. No biggie.

You live in the Macross universe, you just accept that a hundred thousand flying pickles manned by millions of thirty-foot soldiers sometimes fly in and shoot up the town. It's just one of those things.

[RaisingCane]

I wonder what they do if the Zentradi don't actually attack.  What if, like Britai in SDFM, they observe from a distance for a while without communicating or initiating any hostilities?  Do the NUN forces launch a pre-emptive attack to prevent them from spreading word to the main Zentradi fleet?

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Forces could conceivably have fought the Supervision Army a few times and not even realized it because they're not checking whatever inter-fleet IFF codes that the Zentradi use.

Wouldn't it be obvious they're not Zentradi if it's a fleet of ASS-1s?

Edited October 10, 2022 by RaisingCane

[Seto Kaiba]

1 minute ago, RaisingCane said:

I wonder what they do if the Zentradi don't actually attack.  What if, like Britai in SDFM, they observe from a distance for a while without communicating or initiating any hostilities?  Do the NUN forces launch a pre-emptive attack to prevent them from spreading word to the main force?

Y'know, I don't think it's ever come up.

Whether that means Vrlitwhai and Exsedol are extremely odd Zentradi and more normal ones skip right to attacking, that the New UN Forces are much more proactive, something else, or some combination of factors is unclear.

If I had to guess, I'd assume that the New UN Forces are likely unwilling to risk allowing a larger Zentradi force to acquire any information about an inhabited planet since they've heard this story before and know how it ends.

[Seto Kaiba]

38 minutes ago, RaisingCane said:

Wouldn't it be obvious they're not Zentradi if it's a fleet of ASS-1s?

Not necessarily, because not all Zentradi fleets are equipped the same.

This is far more blatant in Macross II's timeline where the Zentradi are more regularly the antagonists and other main fleets are shown with a wide array of mecha and several unique ship classes not found in the Boddole Zer main fleet.  However, even in the main Macross timeline there is some evidence that some fleets have equipment or equipment variations that others don't, either due to factory satellites in that fleet's supply chain being lost or breaking down or because it was only ever available to Zentradi in one specific part of the galaxy.  Macross Chronicle's coverage of the "enemy battle suit" from Macross Plus posits this as a possible origin, an independent development by some Protoculture colony world or regional government in their Stellar Republic that was not universally adopted.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Assuming humanity doesn't end up destroying itself first or getting destroyed by the Zentradi... yeah, probably.

Emigrant governments are going to need quite a bit of time to build up substantial defense forces that can independently withstand even a Zentradi Branch Fleet's attack.  Even in 2060, all but the emigrant governments with the largest and most powerful defense forces have to call upon their neighbors for reinforcements when they come under attack by a Zentradi branch fleet or other sigificant threat.  The obligation to answer such calls comes up in Macross Delta: the False Songstress when Macross Galaxy sends a distress call in the face of a Vajra attack and in Macross Delta: The White Knight of the Black Wing when Windermere IV's Aerial Knights take a beating helping to repel a Zentradi fleet attacking one of Windermere IV's neighboring systems.  

With most emigrant governments being able to muster only a few dozen to at most a few hundred warships, they're badly outclassed by the sheer scale of Zentradi forces.  It will take quite a while for humanity to be able to deploy a military force on anywhere close to that insane scale or to develop weapons that can sufficiently level that playing field.

(Master File presents a story about a 2030s-era encounter with a very small main fleet of just 120,000 ships that was still time for the brown trousers.  Spica III was wiped out, and the New UN Forces had to draw every available ship and fighter from Earth and all the neighboring systems to wipe the main fleet out before it stumbled on any other worlds in the immediate vicinity of Earth.)

 

It makes me wonder if NUNS should try researching the possibility of using a planet's gravity to power a defensive barrier (much like the Macross had that ended up wiping out Ontatio quadrant).

That would either be a game-changer or suicidal. Dunno yet.

[RaisingCane]

Or some Grand Cannons as force multipliers.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

It makes me wonder if NUNS should try researching the possibility of using a planet's gravity to power a defensive barrier (much like the Macross had that ended up wiping out Ontatio quadrant).

That would either be a game-changer or suicidal. Dunno yet.

The ancient Protoculture seem to have tried that in a way, protecting planets like Uroboros and Windermere IV by surrounding them with artificial fold faults.

Its viability as a defensive strategy is... questionable.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, RaisingCane said:

Or some Grand Cannons as force multipliers.

The Grand Cannon concept didn't really do so great in the First Space War.  It fundamentally assumes the enemy's going to achieve orbital supremacy, and at that point you're very likely already hosed, as was the case in its only use.