The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[TG Remix]

12 hours ago, RedWolf said:

All the ships beside the large battleship were designed by the Varauta colony. Note designed.

I thought the command ship was also a local Varauta design that were modified by the Protodevlin. And not like the UN Spacy had a complete disdain of building massive commandships, since not only a few Zentradi ships were used/made by UN have been spotted, but also the complete redesign the Neo Nupetiet-Vergnitzs bis from 7 had with its hull.

 

12 hours ago, RedWolf said:

Edit: Also fleets I've Macross Galaxy like to have escorts different  from typical Emigration fleet. The Epsilon Foundation is selling warships different from what NUNS typically  uses.

Right, I remember they also used different ships, like the not-Musai class Deneb cruiser. I guess it's not uncommon for colonies and fleets to utilize other ship designs that aren't the standard kind, they just wouldn't be popular as the likes of the Northamptons and Guantánamo carriers. Though, any more information on the Epsilon Foundation? (Unless it's a Delta thing, in which case less spoilers as possible, lol)

 

20 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

So is Fasces in full control of the Varauta colonial forces or just some of them? Or is it now defunct? How much of a threat would they be to the rest of the colonies?

I think it's less like they have control over the remaining Varauta Army (all survivors would have returned to normal by then), but they have the Satellite Factory that was able to create as much of the Elgerzorene's, Panzerzorene's, and so on to create. Basically Fasces iirc wanted variable craft with the spirit absorption beams.

I am aware that the UN has more factory satellites under their control (around 20 iirc), and it makes me wonder where they're spread throughout their grasp on the galaxy. I'm aware the Regult one from SDF was placed between a Lagrange point between the Earth and the Moon, and the Queadluun-Rau factory that was going restoration near Eden. Would they be moved to the more "important" key places of the UN, or any regular colony fleet/government that comes across one can keep one if they stumbled onto one?

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by TG Remix

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

So as I understand it or what has been mentioned that after Megaroad 13 settled in the Varauta system...they purposely designed different ships, right? Or am I misreading things?

With the exception of the "new giant aircraft carrier", the ships used by the Varauta Forces in Macross 7 are modified versions of warships developed by the Varuata colony for their local New UN Forces defense force.

We have only indirect statements on why, but it seems like the colony was pretty determined they wanted the ability to repel or outright destroy a Zentradi branch fleet and built the flagship of their defense force with a level of firepower appropriate to the task.  Rather than the stealth-focused designs used by the mainstream New UN Forces, the ships that the Varauta colony designed seem to focus more on defensive ability with large amounts of energy conversion armor and on heavy firepower.

 

14 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

From what I surmised once when the Varatura forces were taken over by the Protodevlin they created ships sorta similar to the supervision army ones....or I might be misinterpreting things here?

Once the Varauta colony was captured by the Protodeviln that had accidentally been unsealed by the special investigative unit dispatched to the system's ice world by the New UN Gov't (in the short Spiritia Dreaming), the Protodeviln had the designs of the Varauta NUNS modified and upgraded to their standards/tastes/preferences and then mass produced to accommodate their conscription of mind-controlled colonists to expand their forces.

 

14 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

If this the design change was a deliberate decision by the Colony brass...then thats the first time a garrison fleet went with different designs...?

We don't know if it was the first time... we've seen only a fraction of the total number of emigrant fleets and planets out in the galaxy.  Only a dozen or so of at least 160.

 

52 minutes ago, darkranger12 said:

So is Fasces in full control of the Varauta colonial forces or just some of them? Or is it now defunct? How much of a threat would they be to the rest of the colonies?

It is possible that Fasces has some sympathizers among the Varauta New UN Forces, but the Varauta colony itself was liberated in 2046 by the Macross 7 fleet and as far as we know has remained free ever since.  The mind-controlled Varauta Forces that fought the Macross 7 fleet NUNS no longer exist, as those troops were freed from mind control and returned to their normal lives.  So you could say the former Varauta Forces aren't a threat to anyone anymore.

Fasces simply found and gained access to the factory satellite the Protodeviln had used to build the ships and mecha used by their mind-controlled minions, and used it to build more of the Protodeviln's modified versions of the VF-14, VA-14, and VAB-2D.  The factory satellite in question is a special type that needs a special type of spiritia to work, and it isn't functioning properly without it, so its operation is very limited.  Fasces is dependent on it because support for their cause dried up following the Second Unification War.

 

13 hours ago, RedWolf said:

[...]

Dude, stay on topic... those massive tangents unrelated to the original question just confuse people.

[darkranger12]

Well, that all being said, at least the Varauta branch could defend itself from a branch fleet or smaller now...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, darkranger12 said:

Well, that all being said, at least the Varauta branch could defend itself from a branch fleet or smaller now...

There is that, yeah... though the fleet flagship that became Gepernich's home base was the centerpiece of that defensive strategy, with eight Macross Cannons and gigatonnes of thermonuclear ordnance to make branch fleets "go away".

[pengbuzz]

18 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

There is that, yeah... though the fleet flagship that became Gepernich's home base was the centerpiece of that defensive strategy, with eight Macross Cannons and gigatonnes of thermonuclear ordnance to make branch fleets "go away".

Well... now we know who to call next time a branch fleet shows up. Too bad the long distance bills would be absolute murder though...

[RedWolf]

On 5/20/2022 at 11:36 PM, TG Remix said:

Though, any more information on the Epsilon Foundation? (Unless it's a Delta thing, in which case less spoilers as possible, lol)

One of many megacorps in the Macross setting.

[twich]

So, I have a question of logistics/design for Macross capital ships…..so if the Varuta super mega carrier had 8 Macross cannons, how does that work, logistically? It was my understanding that the Macross cannon had such huge power demands, that it limited it to just one per craft. Is it like the Death Star with many dedicated reactors per Macross cannon? Second question is why normal New UN Spacy ships equip more of them?

Twich

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, twich said:

So, I have a question of logistics/design for Macross capital ships…..so if the Varuta super mega carrier had 8 Macross cannons, how does that work, logistically? It was my understanding that the Macross cannon had such huge power demands, that it limited it to just one per craft.

One thing you have to remember about the Varauta Fleet Flagship Space Carrier is that it is stupidly huge.

If not for the Macross Cannon-class gunships in Macross II it would be the single biggest human-built warship in all of Macross at a whopping 4.32km long.  Mind you, since it's not a cylinder like Zentradi ships but is instead shaped like a giant horseshoe, it's actually about 3x the size of a Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class fleet command battleship like Vrlitwhai's.  The only human ships bigger than it in the main Macross timeline are the unarmed environment ships used in emigrant fleets... the City-class, Mainland-class, and Island Cluster-class.  It is a completely over-the-top exercise in excess on all accounts, functioning not just as a supercarrier rivaling a Battle-class for capacity but also as a mothership for the smaller warships of its fleet, and as a massive mobile anti-fleet missile battery and gun platform bristling with massive high-angle beam cannons and eight Macross Cannons.

The thing about Macross Cannons is they're big, they draw a LOT of power, and they have some pretty hardcore cooling requirements between firings.  We're not entirely sure how the eight macross cannon systems aboard the fleet flagship space carrier compare to a Battle-class's gunship for firepower but with eight of them it's likely they're intended to be used in volley fire, with one or more firing while the others are charging or being cooled after firing.  Since the ship is so gobsmackingly massive, it seems a safe bet it's outfitted with a truly insane number of reactor system clusters to meet the energy demands of moving such a massive ship, maintaining artificial gravity, and powering its weaponry and energy conversion armor.

 

1 hour ago, twich said:

Is it like the Death Star with many dedicated reactors per Macross cannon?

Macross tends to buck the sci-fi trend of ships being powered by a single large, central, reactor system like the Death Star's main reactor or a Starfleet ship's warp core.  Instead, they use clusters of smaller reactors working in unison to meet their energy demand.  The bigger the ship, the more reactor clusters it'll have.  On the Battle-class and some other modular warships, the power grid is effectively decentralized by having a reactor complex in each of the ship's independently operable modules.  Other systems, like gravity control and fold systems, are similarly decentralized on many larger warships.

Spoiler

This decentralization is why Boddole Zer's mobile fortress seems to decay rapidly at the end of DYRL?.  With the loss of the fortress's living command computer, the various fold system clusters that normally work in tandem to move the ship began operating sporadically and inconsistently, teleporting chunks of the ship into fold space.

It's doubtful the cannons have dedicated reactor systems, IMO, but given the sheer size of the fleet flagship space carrier, it probably has a rather extensive network of reactor system clusters working in tandem to meet the energy needs of its various systems.

 

1 hour ago, twich said:

Second question is why normal New UN Spacy ships equip more of them?

Very few New UN Forces warships are outfitted with Macross Cannons, because as mentioned earlier they are large, unwieldy, energy-intensive weapons... and terribly unsubtle to boot.  Firing something like that gets everyone's attention right away, and since they lack the numbers to confront a Zentradi fleet head-on the New UN Forces generally prioritize a strategy of avoidance based on stealth and advance detection a weapon like that is only really useful for when things have gone truly pear-shaped.  Reaction weapons are also far more discreet, efficient, and scalable, so the New UN Forces have shown a definite preference for those in its predominantly carrier-based space forces.

For most needs, the electron particle beam cannon technology that is the mainstay of the Zentradi forces is used on human-built warships as well for much the same reason... being extremely precise and scalable and coming in a variety of different configurations to suit various needs.

[RedWolf]

2 hours ago, twich said:

So, I have a question of logistics/design for Macross capital ships…..so if the Varuta super mega carrier had 8 Macross cannons, how does that work, logistically? It was my understanding that the Macross cannon had such huge power demands, that it limited it to just one per craft. Is it like the Death Star with many dedicated reactors per Macross cannon? Second question is why normal New UN Spacy ships equip more of them?

Twich

The Varauta Flqgship is a four kilometer long ship built to be the mothership of other smaller capital ships. Not only having 8 Macross cannons but also 8 large Reaction mislles with 24 10 gigaton yield warheads. Basically it is designed to wipe out Adoclass fleets like Vrlitwhai's. So to leave no witnesses to report the main fleet. Most orbital defense forces would use Reaction Weapons that Zentradi lost the ability to replenish. Just that Varauta preferred the Macross II type of oberkill. If you've seen Macross II and it's Macross Cannon Class you would know what I mean.

The Varauta system presumably has resources allowing to build a monster ship like that. Which makes sense as the Supervsion Army under the Protodevlin found its origin in that system. Oh yes the Protodevlin also stole a Factory Satellite that operated like the Star Forge in Star Wars The Old Republic. 

[pengbuzz]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

One thing you have to remember about the Varauta Fleet Flagship Space Carrier is that it is stupidly huge.

If not for the Macross Cannon-class gunships in Macross II it would be the single biggest human-built warship in all of Macross at a whopping 4.32km long.  Mind you, since it's not a cylinder like Zentradi ships but is instead shaped like a giant horseshoe, it's actually about 3x the size of a Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class fleet command battleship like Vrlitwhai's.  The only human ships bigger than it in the main Macross timeline are the unarmed environment ships used in emigrant fleets... the City-class, Mainland-class, and Island Cluster-class.  It is a completely over-the-top exercise in excess on all accounts, functioning not just as a supercarrier rivaling a Battle-class for capacity but also as a mothership for the smaller warships of its fleet, and as a massive mobile anti-fleet missile battery and gun platform bristling with massive high-angle beam cannons and eight Macross Cannons.

I would imagine at some point, the size of ships even in space are going to start presenting structural integrity issues; I wonder if any of the energy is being shunted to an SIF/IDF system?

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The thing about Macross Cannons is they're big, they draw a LOT of power, and they have some pretty hardcore cooling requirements between firings.  We're not entirely sure how the eight macross cannon systems aboard the fleet flagship space carrier compare to a Battle-class's gunship for firepower but with eight of them it's likely they're intended to be used in volley fire, with one or more firing while the others are charging or being cooled after firing.  Since the ship is so gobsmackingly massive, it seems a safe bet it's outfitted with a truly insane number of reactor system clusters to meet the energy demands of moving such a massive ship, maintaining artificial gravity, and powering its weaponry and energy conversion armor.

I would think that firing all 8 of them at once would probably be fairly detrimental to all parties involved.

Spoiler

Or the means to the galaxy's biggest barbecue!

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross tends to buck the sci-fi trend of ships being powered by a single large, central, reactor system like the Death Star's main reactor or a Starfleet ship's warp core.  Instead, they use clusters of smaller reactors working in unison to meet their energy demand.  The bigger the ship, the more reactor clusters it'll have.  On the Battle-class and some other modular warships, the power grid is effectively decentralized by having a reactor complex in each of the ship's independently operable modules.  Other systems, like gravity control and fold systems, are similarly decentralized on many larger warships.

  Hide contents

This decentralization is why Boddole Zer's mobile fortress seems to decay rapidly at the end of DYRL?.  With the loss of the fortress's living command computer, the various fold system clusters that normally work in tandem to move the ship began operating sporadically and inconsistently, teleporting chunks of the ship into fold space.

It's doubtful the cannons have dedicated reactor systems, IMO, but given the sheer size of the fleet flagship space carrier, it probably has a rather extensive network of reactor system clusters working in tandem to meet the energy needs of its various systems.

I would think that this would make it a bit harder to "kill" those ships, as a "lucky shot" isn't as likely to take out a key system ship-wide.

 

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Very few New UN Forces warships are outfitted with Macross Cannons, because as mentioned earlier they are large, unwieldy, energy-intensive weapons... and terribly unsubtle to boot.  Firing something like that gets everyone's attention right away, and since they lack the numbers to confront a Zentradi fleet head-on the New UN Forces generally prioritize a strategy of avoidance based on stealth and advance detection a weapon like that is only really useful for when things have gone truly pear-shaped.  Reaction weapons are also far more discreet, efficient, and scalable, so the New UN Forces have shown a definite preference for those in its predominantly carrier-based space forces.

For most needs, the electron particle beam cannon technology that is the mainstay of the Zentradi forces is used on human-built warships as well for much the same reason... being extremely precise and scalable and coming in a variety of different configurations to suit various needs.

Spoiler

Kind of like swatting a fly with a bazooka?

 

[JB0]

8 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Very few New UN Forces warships are outfitted with Macross Cannons, because as mentioned earlier they are large, unwieldy, energy-intensive weapons... and terribly unsubtle to boot. 

But they're perfect for when you need to tell someone to eff off in a way that leaves absolutely no ambiguity, so they make sure there's one ship that DOES carry the big gun.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

I would imagine at some point, the size of ships even in space are going to start presenting structural integrity issues; I wonder if any of the energy is being shunted to an SIF/IDF system?

There are rudimentary forms of inertial damping in the Macross setting in the form of inertia capacitor systems like the Queadluun-Rau's IVCS and the ISC used by 5th Gen VFs, but since Macross's warships are generally not inclined to the kind of violent high-sublight accelerations that would turn the crew into wall-gazpacho they haven't become indispensible yet.  Most warships peak at less than 2G of acceleration, because sublight travel is bullsh*t and it's way faster, easier, and more resource-efficient to just fold long distances.

Structurally, ships are mainly getting by on how absurdly tough hypercarbon and related composites are.  The hypercarbon composites used around the First Space War were 100x as strong as an equivalent thickness of armor-grade steel according to some of the oldest technical materials.  Once ships get to a certain size, sailing under sublight power seems to become a bit of a waste and they seem to just fold everywhere they need to go the way Mobile Fortresses often do.

[TG Remix]

On 5/20/2022 at 12:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

We have only indirect statements on why, but it seems like the colony was pretty determined they wanted the ability to repel or outright destroy a Zentradi branch fleet and built the flagship of their defense force with a level of firepower appropriate to the task.  Rather than the stealth-focused designs used by the mainstream New UN Forces, the ships that the Varauta colony designed seem to focus more on defensive ability with large amounts of energy conversion armor and on heavy firepower.

I'd have to assume they're not the only ones that have that ideology in the UN. Both Birdman and Space War I did show with enough gusto they could fight against a full blown Zentradi fleet. That and I'd imagine there would be more ships build that were based on the Zentradi battleships combat capabilities then just the Battle class. Unless I'm just spewing nonsense and just being hopeful, lol.

 

Though on that note, I did recently find out I from a Kawamori interview that not only some Zentradi ships were converted into colony ships, but only 100 of them (?) were around by Frontier. I know the UN prefers more smaller stealthier ships, but I'd honestly assume there'd be more then that around. Though for the colony ships, I'd expect those LST's to be converted, since they were the least heavily armed of the bigger ones, and have been used for transportation anyways.

 

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

  Firing something like that gets everyone's attention right away, and since they lack the numbers to confront a Zentradi fleet head-on the New UN Forces generally prioritize a strategy of avoidance based on stealth and advance detection a weapon like that is only really useful for when things have gone truly pear-shaped.  Reaction weapons are also far more discreet, efficient, and scalable, so the New UN Forces have shown a definite preference for those in its predominantly carrier-based space forces.

Just read this. Probably just nonsense I'm speaking then. 🤪

 

On 5/20/2022 at 12:33 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

We don't know if it was the first time... we've seen only a fraction of the total number of emigrant fleets and planets out in the galaxy.  Only a dozen or so of at least 160.

So the official number of planets around are 160? Or that's just a estimation?

Edited May 23, 2022 by TG Remix

[RedWolf]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

but only 100 of them (?) were around by Frontier

A hundred ships of Vrlitwhai's fleet survived Space War 1. Serving as the backbone of UNG's space fleet until they got their industrial base going. Meanwhile some 2,000 Zentradi hulls crashed on Earth. Some like the gun Destroyer Quamzin's group fixed and used to attack the Macross are salvageable. The guns put on SDFN Macross Class is were repurposed from Zentradi wrecks.

[Seto Kaiba]

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

I'd have to assume they're not the only ones that have that ideology in the UN. Both Birdman and Space War I did show with enough gusto they could fight against a full blown Zentradi fleet. That and I'd imagine there would be more ships build that were based on the Zentradi battleships combat capabilities then just the Battle class. Unless I'm just spewing nonsense and just being hopeful, lol.

The Birdhuman that the ancient Protoculture left behind on Earth wasn't nearly that heavily armed.  None of the Fold Evils we've seen were, really.

The Earth UN Forces had a rather different tactical ethos from the New UN Forces established after the First Space War.  Mainly, this was because they developed their planetary defense strategy around the badly mistaken assumption that an alien aggressor would pursue a classic alien invasion scenario and were also VERY mistaken about the scale of space warfare.  Once they learned the hard way that something like a Zentradi main fleet simply can't be fought on human terms, avoidance and stealth became the order of the day.  Even before the First Space War, they were mostly structured around the idea of a carrier-based space force rather than a battleship-based space force like the Zentradi are used to.  It was only really in Macross II where the UN Forces bothered building battleships, though their strategic focus was also predominantly defensive and relied on a mix of high-performance fighters, the firepower of the massive Macross Cannon-class gunships, and the Minmay Attack.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

Though on that note, I did recently find out I from a Kawamori interview that not only some Zentradi ships were converted into colony ships, but only 100 of them (?) were around by Frontier. I know the UN prefers more smaller stealthier ships, but I'd honestly assume there'd be more then that around. Though for the colony ships, I'd expect those LST's to be converted, since they were the least heavily armed of the bigger ones, and have been used for transportation anyways.

There were around a hundred Zentradi ships left after the First Space War.  The New UN Forces seem to have appropriated or built quite a few more since then... e.g. the ships of the 33rd Marines.

Those Zentradi ships were implied to be used for things like short-distance emigrant fleets that looked for inhabitable worlds within 100ly of Earth, like the one that found Eden in late 2013.

 

3 hours ago, TG Remix said:

So the official number of planets around are 160? Or that's just a estimation?

At least 160 emigrant fleets... it's the best estimation we can manage with the available facts, there having been approximately 100 short-distance emigrant fleets and the highest sequentially numbered long-distance fleet being the 59th.

As to how many planets... we don't know.  Not every emigrant fleet launched has found a planet yet, and there are some hints that suggest some found more than one inhabitable planet.  Some may have been destroyed or lost before finding a planet, like the Macross Galaxy in the Frontier movies or the Megaroad-01.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Seto Kaiba

[TG Remix]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Once they learned the hard way that something like a Zentradi main fleet simply can't be fought on human terms, avoidance and stealth became the order of the day.  Even before the First Space War, they were mostly structured around the idea of a carrier-based space force rather than a battleship-based space force like the Zentradi are used to.  It was only really in Macross II where the UN Forces bothered building battleships, though their strategic focus was also predominantly defensive and relied on a mix of high-performance fighters, the firepower of the massive Macross Cannon-class gunships, and the Minmay Attack.

I wonder if the emphasis on stealth was Kawamori's more subtle ways of distancing himself from Macross II. It does make logical sense, since SDF did prove even though they can deal with Zentradi, trying to combat a whole fleet would result in inevitable casualties; so to them and most other colonies and fleets, it'd be better to not take the risk overall.

Though, I can imagine after Frontier, Earth and some other colonies would be a bit more cocky about winning against threats like the Protodevlin and Varja, and invest in being more on the offensive end like the Macross II UN has.

 

14 hours ago, RedWolf said:

A hundred ships of Vrlitwhai's fleet survived Space War 1. Serving as the backbone of UNG's space fleet until they got their industrial base going. Meanwhile some 2,000 Zentradi hulls crashed on Earth. Some like the gun Destroyer Quamzin's group fixed and used to attack the Macross are salvageable. The guns put on SDFN Macross Class is were repurposed from Zentradi wrecks.

I see, that makes a bit more sense. Still wouldn't be a majority, but still could find themselves in some kind of use. (There's also the case of smaller versions of the Meltradi ships in VF-X2, but I'm leaning more on them being downscaled for gameplay purposes then in-universe)

Speaking of size, I don't think we ever got official numbers of the Variable Glaug's size, or those of battroid forms of the likes of the Cutlass or Feios Valkyrie.

 

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

As to how many planets... we don't know.  Not every emigrant fleet launched has found a planet yet, and there are some hints that suggest some found more than one inhabitable planet.  Some may have been destroyed or lost before finding a planet, like the Macross Galaxy in the Frontier movies or the Megaroad-01.

Right, iirc the Megaroad-06 and Megaroad-09 were "under investigation" in Frontier's animated map.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

I wonder if the emphasis on stealth was Kawamori's more subtle ways of distancing himself from Macross II. It does make logical sense, since SDF did prove even though they can deal with Zentradi, trying to combat a whole fleet would result in inevitable casualties; so to them and most other colonies and fleets, it'd be better to not take the risk overall.

Almost certainly not.  For a very long time - indeed, even well after Macross 7 - Kawamori claimed to have never seen Macross II.

His philosophy for Macross has always broadly mirrored real world design trends.  When Macross Plus and Macross 7 were on the drawing board, much fuss was being made on the subject of things like stealth fighter prototypes and stealth warships.  Particularly on the competition for the USAF Advanced Tactical Fighter program between the YF-22 and the YF-23 that inspired the design of the YF-21/VF-22.  He always sneaks parallels like that into his work on Macross, like the talk about the 5th Generation Valkyries being "last manned Valkyrie" similar to how the 5th Gen fighters were originally tipped to be "last manned fighter", or the VF-31 program mirroring Japan's ATD-X program.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Though, I can imagine after Frontier, Earth and some other colonies would be a bit more cocky about winning against threats like the Protodevlin and Varja, and invest in being more on the offensive end like the Macross II UN has.

By all accounts, even stories set after Frontier have the New UN Government still quite happy with its policy of avoidance when it comes to the Zentradi... even among forces that are armed with 5th Generation VFs.  You can only do so much against overwhelming numerical superiority.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Speaking of size, I don't think we ever got official numbers of the Variable Glaug's size, or those of battroid forms of the likes of the Cutlass or Feios Valkyrie.

Macross Chronicle tends to take the lazy way out and just show size comparisons for the Fighter mode.

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Right, iirc the Megaroad-06 and Megaroad-09 were "under investigation" in Frontier's animated map.

We've seen surprisingly few emigrant fleets up close, and almost all odd-numbered ones.

[TG Remix]

 

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

His philosophy for Macross has always broadly mirrored real world design trends.  When Macross Plus and Macross 7 were on the drawing board, much fuss was being made on the subject of things like stealth fighter prototypes and stealth warships.  Particularly on the competition for the USAF Advanced Tactical Fighter program between the YF-22 and the YF-23 that inspired the design of the YF-21/VF-22.  He always sneaks parallels like that into his work on Macross, like the talk about the 5th Generation Valkyries being "last manned Valkyrie" similar to how the 5th Gen fighters were originally tipped to be "last manned fighter", or the VF-31 program mirroring Japan's ATD-X program.

It does make the franchise a bit more unique in that regard I think. Wonder what was happening around 2008 that made the YF-24 -> VF-25 and VF-27 parallels to happen.

 

54 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

We've seen surprisingly few emigrant fleets up close, and almost all odd-numbered ones.

It is a common thing a noticed too! I think aside from those, the other even-numbered fleets like the mentioned Macross 4 are in side stuff like video games. It was (half-jokingly) another reason for me wondering about Kawamori's opinion on Macross II, lol.

To segway into something kinda-related, I was trying to dig up interesting information for Macross, and there was the notions that the UN after SW1 was a "military dictatorship with elected civilian representation" before the 2040's/2050's; hence a Revolution War happened in 2037. I know Earth supremacy and colony disputes were a thing, and a issue we saw was Earth had the final say of what goes regardless on how much it screwed certain governments over, but I wouldn't know if "dictatorship" would be as strong as a word to describe it.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

It does make the franchise a bit more unique in that regard I think. Wonder what was happening around 2008 that made the YF-24 -> VF-25 and VF-27 parallels to happen.

If I had to guess, I'd say partly just catching up to the real world's gradual introduction of 5th Generation fighter aircraft into actual frontline service mixed with Japan's government deciding to take a shot at developing their own 5th Generation fighter to replace their build-under-license version of the F-16.

The VF-31's development history ended up kind of a whole-plot-reference to Japan's struggles and objectives there, 

 

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

To segway into something kinda-related, I was trying to dig up interesting information for Macross, and there was the notions that the UN after SW1 was a "military dictatorship with elected civilian representation" before the 2040's/2050's; hence a Revolution War happened in 2037. I know Earth supremacy and colony disputes were a thing, and a issue we saw was Earth had the final say of what goes regardless on how much it screwed certain governments over, but I wouldn't know if "dictatorship" would be as strong as a word to describe it.

... I fear you may have had some very inaccurate fan material or "R-word" material mixed in there.

After the First Space War, the Earth Unification Government that had been destroyed was replaced by the New Unification Government that operated along essentially the same lines as a representative democracy.  The military was very influential, sure, but it was by not a military dictatorship by any means.  You could say the military's influence was built upon its heavy involvement in the emigrant fleets (and as a major employer therein) and the understandable emphasis on defense in the wake of such a cataclysmic war.  After all, nobody on Earth (or elsewhere) wanted round 2 to go the same as round 1.

The New UN Government ran into some difficulties with its system of government as space emigration continued and emigrant fleets and planets became increasingly far-flung.  Its new member worlds wanted more autonomy for practical reasons, since referring matters to the central government took a lot of time thanks to the time delays in fold navigation or fold communication, making it difficult to react quickly.  So there was a small, but growing, number of little brushfire conflicts between pro-autonomy movements and the reactionary Earth supremacists who believed that governing authority needed to be centralized on Earth in order to present a united front against threats.  Eventually, that sentiment boiled over when the Earth supremacists started mobilizing the military more and more to crack down on pro-autonomy movements and became the Second Unification War in 2050-2051.  In the aftermath, the New UN Government adjusted its model of government to allow emigrant governments more autonomy and had become something more akin to the EU.

[RedWolf]

On that note Macross always had an anti-militarism bent to it. Military being overconfident and not putting the lives of civilians as a priority. Though not exactly Pacifists either. Heck Kaifun is shown in negative light.

In Macross 7 we see the heads of the military and civilian leadership butting heads. Meanwhile the Earth brass just throws them to the Wolves for self preservation. Meanwhile Col. Barton had issues civilians not respecting his military authority and is spiteful about it.

In Macross Frontier we have the military under civilian authority. And he got couped by a wannabee dictator who was some political officer. 

Macross Delta we had a Military Cover-up and it's repercussions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

59 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

On that note Macross always had an anti-militarism bent to it. Military being overconfident and not putting the lives of civilians as a priority. Though not exactly Pacifists either. Heck Kaifun is shown in negative light.

Kaifun's something of a special case... given that he's shown to be rather hypocritical or insincere about his supposed pacifist views.

The actual pacifists of the Macross 29 fleet are shown in rather a more positive light, though there are still some realistic consequences involved in that the fleet's problems were also caused by their commitment to total pacifism making them extreme doormats.

 

59 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

In Macross 7 we see the heads of the military and civilian leadership butting heads. Meanwhile the Earth brass just throws them to the Wolves for self preservation. Meanwhile Col. Barton had issues civilians not respecting his military authority and is spiteful about it.

In all fairness to Colonel Burton... the only civilian giving him flak was Basara, who excels at making soldiers and civilians alike lose their tempers explosively.

 

59 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

In Macross Frontier we have the military under civilian authority. And he got couped by a wannabee dictator who was some political officer.

The military was under civilian authority in each series... though in Frontier they made an unusual choice of having a military officer in the president's cabinet as his chief of staff and the coup was instigated by corporate corruption rather than from within the military.

 

59 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Macross Delta we had a Military Cover-up and it's repercussions. 

Ironically, a military coverup done for perfectly sound reasons.

[TG Remix]

On 5/24/2022 at 1:16 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

The New UN Government ran into some difficulties with its system of government as space emigration continued and emigrant fleets and planets became increasingly far-flung.  Its new member worlds wanted more autonomy for practical reasons, since referring matters to the central government took a lot of time thanks to the time delays in fold navigation or fold communication, making it difficult to react quickly.  So there was a small, but growing, number of little brushfire conflicts between pro-autonomy movements and the reactionary Earth supremacists who believed that governing authority needed to be centralized on Earth in order to present a united front against threats. 

I wonder if even the governments closer to earth such as Eden would also wish autonomy as well. IIRC a Macross Ride character lost his parents to one of those kinds of civil wars.

 

Though if I can come back to the short distance emigrant fleets, would they stay around the 100 ly radius on Earth, or would they find themselves jumping between planet to planet as long as they're 100 ly away for a guarantee shorter trip?

[Seto Kaiba]

22 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

I wonder if even the governments closer to earth such as Eden would also wish autonomy as well. IIRC a Macross Ride character lost his parents to one of those kinds of civil wars.

Probably, though they also supposedly have much closer ties with Earth in general due to the shorter distance and more established nature of those settlements.

(Master File offers an alternate explanation for the inconsistent depiction of the NUNS emblem as Earth and its closest partners keeping the old UN Forces roundel while more recent governments more readily adopted the newer postwar emblem until the Second Unification War saw the old one abolished entirely in the name of unity.)

 

22 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though if I can come back to the short distance emigrant fleets, would they stay around the 100 ly radius on Earth, or would they find themselves jumping between planet to planet as long as they're 100 ly away for a guarantee shorter trip?

The goal of them was to explore the volume of space within 100ly of Sol, so they'd stay in that volume due to not being outfitted for a more extended trip.

[RedWolf]

Then there is the Zentradi factor. As seen in Macross Plus OVA and Macross 7 Encore those who got left behind cause trouble in deep space attacking VF patrols. In Macross M3 Max and Milia were sent to clean up Zentradi insurgents in the colonies. Macross VF-X had Zentradi mutineers who left Earth set themselves on an abandoned colony to reactivate a buried Mobile Fortress so they can raid Earth even with their meager resources.

Black Rainbow is an interesting case as they are Zentradi that fought for their planet's independence from Earth Supremacist influence. 

I am expecting Anti-Earth Zentradi that left Earth in 2031 to pop up in some future Macross production. These are people that left Earth that wants nothing to do with the NUNG. 

 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Then there is the Zentradi factor. As seen in Macross Plus OVA and Macross 7 Encore those who got left behind cause trouble in deep space attacking VF patrols.

That's really just under the standard approach for rogue Zentradi... "avoid where possible, destroy where not".  Hardly noteworthy.

Those occasional Zentradi who try and fail to acclimate to polite society tend to be a bit more interesting... but they're also a lot more rare.

 

4 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Black Rainbow is an interesting case as they are Zentradi that fought for their planet's independence from Earth Supremacist influence. 

Black Rainbow contained a number of former New UN Forces soldiers - like its leader Timothy Daldhanton - and was really not a threat to anyone except Latence.

 

4 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

I am expecting Anti-Earth Zentradi that left Earth in 2031 to pop up in some future Macross production. These are people that left Earth that wants nothing to do with the NUNG. 

Odds are they've been stomped on by some VF-X unit in the background somewhere.

[camk4evr]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Odds are they've been stomped on by some VF-X unit in the background somewhere.

Possibly even literally.^_^

[RedWolf]

5 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Odds are they've been stomped on by some VF-X unit in the background somewhere

When they left Earth they cut off communications. Boarding private emigration ships they could be anywhere and there are tens of thousands on those ships. While 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army left Earth after the Second Defensive Batlle ot Macross City and reappeared in 2047 their numbers don't add up to those that left. These drops.likely went in different directions to get out of NUN jurisdiction.

It is possible an NUN aligned emigration fleet may encounter them.and be in a territorial dispute with those Zentradi if they already settled that system.. 

 

[Bolt]

There's always the possibility rogue Zentradi , that has abandoned NUNS ,have been seeking out another main Zentradi fleet. Of course they could be instantly vaporized, due to being "tainted " by miclones. But having intel on these  miclones and their emigrant fleet shenanigans, would be quite juicy and maybe enough to mobilize a little miclone hunting expedition.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Bolt said:

There's always the possibility rogue Zentradi , that has abandoned NUNS ,have been seeking out another main Zentradi fleet. Of course they could be instantly vaporized, due to being "tainted " by miclones. But having intel on these  miclones and their emigrant fleet shenanigans, would be quite juicy and maybe enough to mobilize a little miclone hunting expedition.

AKA "the plot of Macross 2036".

[TG Remix]

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

(Master File offers an alternate explanation for the inconsistent depiction of the NUNS emblem as Earth and its closest partners keeping the old UN Forces roundel while more recent governments more readily adopted the newer postwar emblem until the Second Unification War saw the old one abolished entirely in the name of unity.)

Huh, I just thought it was just a rebranding thing. Many symbols and insignia's change over time, but UN property to be non-uniform is also likely.

 

9 hours ago, RedWolf said:

When they left Earth they cut off communications. Boarding private emigration ships they could be anywhere and there are tens of thousands on those ships. While 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army left Earth after the Second Defensive Batlle ot Macross City and reappeared in 2047 their numbers don't add up to those that left. These drops.likely went in different directions to get out of NUN jurisdiction.

It is possible an NUN aligned emigration fleet may encounter them.and be in a territorial dispute with those Zentradi if they already settled that system.. 

The idea of Rogue Zentradi basically forming their own culture/government outside NUNS rule isn't entirely implausible, considering Kamjin's entire rebellion in the last stretch of SDF.

 

Though sort of a related note, I did come across Sketchley's translation for Macross Chronicle's Emigrant Ships, and I came across interesting tidbit:

Quote

Related Matter: Zentraadi Emigrant Ships
Even though various types of Emigrant Ship exist, especially conspicuous are the ones that only the Zentraadi participated in. Even though several tens of thousands of anti-Earth Zentraadi participated informally in the many solo Zentraadi Emigrant Ships, several of which departed in 2031, almost invariably contact with them was lost soon after departure.

I would've imagine mostly/only Zentradi emigrant fleets would've popped up here and there earlier then 2031 (Also probably a good minimal outlier when the Macross 5 launched), though it's kinda intriguing/concerning almost all of them lost contact afterwards, assuming they're still under UN government rule. 

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Huh, I just thought it was just a rebranding thing. Many symbols and insignia's change over time, but UN property to be non-uniform is also likely.

Master File offers alternative explanations for a number of things... it's just like that.

[RedWolf]

1 hour ago, TG Remix said:

Huh, I just thought it was just a rebranding thing. Many symbols and insignia's change over time, but UN property to be non-uniform is also likely.

That is the VF Master Files interpretation. On the other hand Macross Frontier novelization by Kodachi Ukyo has the NUNS logo as the result of the Second Unification War. As the UN Forces became more like NATO rather than a centralized military. Lactence aligned groups like Fasces uses  UN Spacy kite logo. 

A bit of context of those Anti-Earth  Zentradi emigrant fleets. In 2030 there was a revolt called the Second Defensive Battle of Macross City. Those Zentradi that revolted were defeated. After that giant Zentradi would be banned on Earth's surface. So yeah there would be motivation to leave. Emigrant fleets and remote planets would afford them greater freedoms. There would be those that want nothing to do with Earth anymore.

 

[TG Remix]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

A bit of context of those Anti-Earth  Zentradi emigrant fleets. In 2030 there was a revolt called the Second Defensive Battle of Macross City. Those Zentradi that revolted were defeated. After that giant Zentradi would be banned on Earth's surface. So yeah there would be motivation to leave. Emigrant fleets and remote planets would afford them greater freedoms. There would be those that want nothing to do with Earth anymore.

Well that makes Earth a bit less interesting. 😝It would make sense though for them to leave around that time. Though I'd assume the UN would be a bit more in contact with them. Though considering cases like fold faults maybe it's difficult it they weren't done on purpose. Wonder if they would still call themselves apart of the NUNS.

 

Though from the background of the Queadluun-Alma and Feios Valkyrie, Zentradi rogues are a lot more linked then I thought they'd be. Well, enough for a rogue fleet to kidnap a idol group and Black Rainbow to acquire the latter fighter. Part of me wonder if they make up part of those Zentran-only fleets and governments or they just have very good connections.

Edited May 26, 2022 by TG Remix
Added a extra sentence in the first paragraph

[Seto Kaiba]

14 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Well that makes Earth a bit less interesting. 😝It would make sense though for them to leave around that time.

It was a safety matter... having giant Zentradi around poses all kinds of logistical and resource issues, since they draw over a hundred times the resources and are significantly more dangerous in a public setting since you're talking about a living being that is as strong and resilient as a workroid.  The inherent dangers in even something as minor as a drunk and disorderly call are exponentially greater when giant Zentradi are involved simply because of their scale.

Then of course, you have to factor in that a percentage of Zentradi inevitably fail to adjust to living a civilian lifestyle and either fall in with similarly ill-adjusting folks and begin to gravitate towards violence or develop substance abuse problems like the lolicon trio in the original series did.  Not all of them have the benefit of a loving spouse wiling to assist them in getting through that kind of challenge the way Roli did.

That's why it's rare for even emigrant fleets and planets to permit giant Zentradi around.  The Macross Frontier fleet was a rare exception to that, and like its retro aesthetic city areas, played it for the sake of tourism.

 

14 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though I'd assume the UN would be a bit more in contact with them. Though considering cases like fold faults maybe it's difficult it they weren't done on purpose. Wonder if they would still call themselves apart of the NUNS.

If those ships didn't want to remain in contact, it's very hard to keep track of them.  Fold faults obstruct fold navigation and fold communication, and it's very easy for even fleets or ships intending to remain in close contact to find themselves cut off.

Quite a lot of the maladjusted Zentradi seem to want to go back to a warrior lifestyle, and so I'd suspect a lot of them probably didn't actually get too far before getting wiped out by their own kind, the Supervision Army, or the New UN Forces somewhere they attacked.

 

14 minutes ago, TG Remix said:

Though from the background of the Queadluun-Alma and Feios Valkyrie, Zentradi rogues are a lot more linked then I thought they'd be. Well, enough for a rogue fleet to kidnap a idol group and Black Rainbow to acquire the latter fighter. Part of me wonder if they make up part of those Zentran-only fleets and governments or they just have very good connections.

War profiteering absolutely did not die when Earth's surface was glassed... just like in Gundam, there are companies willing to sell weapons to anti-government militias, terrorists, etc. in order to conduct illegal tests of products meant for sale to governments later.  Critical Path and General Galaxy both indulged in that.  A lot of their testing on the YF-27 was done in the form of black ops.

[TG Remix]

4 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That's why it's rare for even emigrant fleets and planets to permit giant Zentradi around.  The Macross Frontier fleet was a rare exception to that, and like its retro aesthetic city areas, played it for the sake of tourism.

No argument there; makes complete practical sense after yet another Zentradi attack on your biggest and most monumental city just happened. I'm just being a (recently-realized) Zentradi fanboy about it. Though on the more unbiased side, I believe Zentradi racism is one of those things that are mentioned here and there (Concerns with Nousjadeul-Ger's being used for target practice on Eden and a uncouth comment President Glass Howard made in Frontier iirc) but aren't one of the huge focuses either. 

 

19 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

War profiteering absolutely did not die when Earth's surface was glassed... just like in Gundam, there are companies willing to sell weapons to anti-government militias, terrorists, etc. in order to conduct illegal tests of products meant for sale to governments later.  Critical Path and General Galaxy both indulged in that.  A lot of their testing on the YF-27 was done in the form of black ops.

That, and with the Variable Glaug the UN or any other customer not above to use and widely adopt stolen designs from those mentioned as well. Though in that case it was made from a stolen VF-4, so it's pretty much a cycle...Like Gundam.