The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

24 minutes ago, George Yamamori said:

Which are the VF-31A's Bifors CIMM-3B micro-missiles? The 6 internal launchers near the knees or the hatch on the back of the legs?

They're the internal launchers near the knees.

[100mega]

I don't really follow the concert livestreams too much, but I was thinking about buying a ticket for the Macross Frontier Galaxy REVENGE! concert. I was trying to see if there was a thread on the forum of people talking about it because it's the first global stream and I was somewhat surprised to not see anything mentioning it. Is this really a live event or something was already recorded?

[RedWolf]

Looking at Japanese wikipedia  I noticed a manga called Macross  Comic Zentradi Prime (Macross Ace Editorial Edition, Kadokawa Shoten,  2011).

 

Anybody has an idea on this?

[sketchley]

1 hour ago, RedWolf said:

Looking at Japanese wikipedia  I noticed a manga called Macross  Comic Zentradi Prime (Macross Ace Editorial Edition, Kadokawa Shoten,  2011).

 

Anybody has an idea on this?

 

Do you mean this?

マクロス コミックゼントラ盛り

本誌に掲載された4コマ漫画や読み切り作品を収録。2011年3月26日発売。ISBN 978-4047156753

* https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスエース#単行本

If so, the correct reading is "Macross Comic Zentradi Serving" (as in "a serving of rice").

The description reads: "Includes 4-panel gag manga and one-shot works published in [the Macross Ace] magazine.  Released on March 26, 2011."

 

It's a collection of the following and other gag manga:

ゼントラ弁当マクロス風

アキバ鉄工作。2009年から2011年まで『マクロスエース』に連載。本作を題材としたパロディ4コマギャグ漫画。単行本『マクロス コミックゼントラ盛り』に収録。

* https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/超時空要塞マクロス#漫画 (at the very bottom, just before the "game" section starts)

Translation: "Zentradi bento-box Macross style

By Akiba Tekko. Serialized in "Macros Ace" from 2009 to 2011.  A parody 4-panel gag manga based on [Super Dimensional Fortress Macross].  It was included in the "Macross Comic Zentradi Serving" publication."

 

 

※ the titles (Macross Comic Zentradi Serving,  Zentradi bento-box Macross Style) are playing on the ゼントラ丼 (Zentradi Bowl, as in Beef Bowl) thing that showed up accompanying events and attractions spawned by Macross F.

Edited October 27, 2021 by sketchley

[sketchley]

Here's an image of it from Vol. 005:

https://blog-imgs-43-origin.fc2.com/a/s/t/asterisk485/IMG_0938.jpg

 

Source: http://asterisk485.blog106.fc2.com/blog-entry-33.html

[RedWolf]

3 hours ago, sketchley said:

 

Do you mean this?

マクロス コミックゼントラ盛り

本誌に掲載された4コマ漫画や読み切り作品を収録。2011年3月26日発売。ISBN 978-4047156753

* https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスエース#単行本

If so, the correct reading is "Macross Comic Zentradi Serving" (as in "a serving of rice").

The description reads: "Includes 4-panel gag manga and one-shot works published in [the Macross Ace] magazine.  Released on March 26, 2011."

 

It's a collection of the following and other gag manga:

ゼントラ弁当マクロス風

アキバ鉄工作。2009年から2011年まで『マクロスエース』に連載。本作を題材としたパロディ4コマギャグ漫画。単行本『マクロス コミックゼントラ盛り』に収録。

* https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/超時空要塞マクロス#漫画 (at the very bottom, just before the "game" section starts)

Translation: "Zentradi bento-box Macross style

By Akiba Tekko. Serialized in "Macros Ace" from 2009 to 2011.  A parody 4-panel gag manga based on [Super Dimensional Fortress Macross].  It was included in the "Macross Comic Zentradi Serving" publication."

 

 

※ the titles (Macross Comic Zentradi Serving,  Zentradi bento-box Macross Style) are playing on the ゼントラ丼 (Zentradi Bowl, as in Beef Bowl) thing that showed up accompanying events and attractions spawned by Macross F.

Okay thanks,  I was curious at what it was.

[apptt4]

On 10/23/2021 at 7:01 AM, 100mega said:

I don't really follow the concert livestreams too much, but I was thinking about buying a ticket for the Macross Frontier Galaxy REVENGE! concert. I was trying to see if there was a thread on the forum of people talking about it because it's the first global stream and I was somewhat surprised to not see anything mentioning it. Is this really a live event or something was already recorded?

Live event.

[TehPW]

A couple days ago, on a Youtube thread about the F-14, the topic took a swing on macross and the VF-1's formation being derived from the F-14.

" @Teh PW  *coughs Shoji Kawamori based the design of the VF-1 on the F-111 (the tipped up nose is the giveaway)"

 

Now i was both mildly annoyed and yet curious (because i didn't view the comment as a attack) because i never heard this before... is there any truth to this comment?

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, TehPW said:

A couple days ago, on a Youtube thread about the F-14, the topic took a swing on macross and the VF-1's formation being derived from the F-14.

" @Teh PW  *coughs Shoji Kawamori based the design of the VF-1 on the F-111 (the tipped up nose is the giveaway)"

 

Now i was both mildly annoyed and yet curious (because i didn't view the comment as a attack) because i never heard this before... is there any truth to this comment?

To the best of my knowledge, no.

It's always been well-understood that Kawamori's design for the VF-1 Valkyrie was based on the Grumman F-14 Tomcat.  Publications that discuss the development of the series rarely fail to mention that Kawamori's inspiration for the VF-1 was the US Navy's Grumman F-14 as on page 22 of Kawamori Shoji Design Works, page 28 of Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works, the 30th anniversary "special appendix" Document of Macross, Kawamori's interview in the 2018 Autumn issue of Great Mechanics G magazine (pg31), and so on. 

The only other aircraft typically mentioned in connection with it are its namesake, the North American XB-70, and the McDonnell Douglas F-15C's FAST Pack capability inspiring the VF-1's FAST Packs.

The connection is drawn in-universe as well, with even very early versions of the technical setting (e.g. Sky Angels) indicating the VF-1 was literally based on the F-14 in-universe and that F-14s were used to evaluate some systems being developed for the Valkyrie.  This relationship only got closer post-Macross Zero.  Variable Fighter Master File: VF-0 Phoenix has some remarks about how the first VF prototypes that preceded the VF-0 were quite literally modified F-14s.

 

EDIT: It's also fairly well-known that Roy's VF-1S color scheme and the SVF-1 Skulls are modeled on the colors of the US Navy's VF-84 Jolly Rogers, who gained fame on film two years before Macross came out flying their F-14s in the 1980 movie The Final Countdown.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Seto Kaiba
Added a bit of context

[AN/ALQ128]

iirc there's even an anecdote about Kawamori coming up with the variable transformation by fiddling with a toy Tomcat and discovering that the engine nacelles could make do as legs.

[TehPW]

Thank you for verification but i am still curious: The person mentions the Tipped Up nose to explain the reason... could there be a connection?

After Googling some random images of the retired F-111 (because i have never personally seen the aircraft unless it was passing though Sigonella Italy in 1992, post Desert Storm), I wonder what exactly does that dude mean? Other than VG wings, there is almost nothing in common with the VF-1, visually. The aircraft was recently retired (when viewed through the lense of Macross) in 1998 so I would imagine it being pressed back into emergency service for the Anti-UN War but not in any naval-based combat setting...

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by TehPW

[Seto Kaiba]

20 hours ago, TehPW said:

Thank you for verification but i am still curious: The person mentions the Tipped Up nose to explain the reason... could there be a connection?

Unlikely, IMO... I have never seen any mention of the F-111 in connection with the VF-1's design.

 

20 hours ago, TehPW said:

After Googling some random images of the retired F-111 (because i have never personally seen the aircraft unless it was passing though Sigonella Italy in 1992, post Desert Storm), I wonder what exactly does that dude mean? Other than VG wings, there is almost nothing in common with the VF-1, visually.

He's referring to the angle of the underside of the nosecone... which is similar to the VF-1's, but using that as the basis to claim the VF-1 is based on the F-111 is pretty silly when the aircraft is literally a scaled-down F-14.

 

20 hours ago, TehPW said:

The aircraft was recently retired (when viewed through the lense of Macross) in 1998 so I would imagine it being pressed back into emergency service for the Anti-UN War but not in any naval-based combat setting...

It's not inconceivable that the F-111 might find itself pressed back into service during the Unification Wars, though after the first couple years there wouldn't have been much in the way of utility for older planes as newer models upgraded with or built around OTM like the F-14++, MiM-31, or F203 were being introduced.

[JB0]

6 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not inconceivable that the F-111 might find itself pressed back into service during the Unification Wars, though after the first couple years there wouldn't have been much in the way of utility for older planes as newer models upgraded with or built around OTM like the F-14++, MiM-31, or F203 were being introduced.

I suddenly want to see an overtech-enhanced SR-71 in Macross...

[pengbuzz]

18 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Unlikely, IMO... I have never seen any mention of the F-111 in connection with the VF-1's design.

 

He's referring to the angle of the underside of the nosecone... which is similar to the VF-1's, but using that as the basis to claim the VF-1 is based on the F-111 is pretty silly when the aircraft is literally a scaled-down F-14.

 

It's not inconceivable that the F-111 might find itself pressed back into service during the Unification Wars, though after the first couple years there wouldn't have been much in the way of utility for older planes as newer models upgraded with or built around OTM like the F-14++, MiM-31, or F203 were being introduced.

On a side note; the F-111 had been originally developed as a joint-fighter between the Navy and the Air Force, but displayed poor performance specs in tests. Grumman had been working with General Dymanics on the naval version, but when the program as a whole was becoming a problem, Grumman began doing improvement studies into what a naval fighter would require and possible alternatives. in 1966, the Navy awarded Grumman a contract to do studies into an advanced fighter design.

That design would later go on to become the F-14 Tomcat (Named after Vice Admiral Thomas Connoly, Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Air Warfare).

So, the F-111 and the F-14 do have some commonality, but are different aircraft.

[100mega]

So this past year I made my way through all of the Macross franchise and got pretty confused with the protoculture / fold backstory around Macross 7 and leading through Frontier and Delta. Is there a good write up somewhere that kinda pieces everything together? I'm also wondering if my lack of understanding of the lore of Macross in general made Delta feel... boring.

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, 100mega said:

So this past year I made my way through all of the Macross franchise and got pretty confused with the protoculture / fold backstory around Macross 7 and leading through Frontier and Delta. Is there a good write up somewhere that kinda pieces everything together?

Not as such.  As you know, most Macross publications are not available in English.  Macross Chronicle, the official encyclopedia, did have some articles on the Protoculture's history but those were only current up thru the end of the Macross Frontier movies, and they're in Japanese.  

If you have specific questions, this is the place for 'em and the fan community here is always happy to help.  

 

2 minutes ago, 100mega said:

I'm also wondering if my lack of understanding of the lore of Macross in general made Delta feel... boring.

... nah, Macross Delta just wasn't very well-written compared to Macross's usual level of quality.

IMO, the series did a poor job of laying out its additions to the setting... especially when it came to the Windermereans, who had most of their backstory presented in a gaiden manga rather than in the series proper.  (They're much more in line with Macross's sympathetic antagonists if you've read it, but if you haven't they're just kind of arbitrarily bastards.)

[100mega]

12 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Not as such.  As you know, most Macross publications are not available in English.  Macross Chronicle, the official encyclopedia, did have some articles on the Protoculture's history but those were only current up thru the end of the Macross Frontier movies, and they're in Japanese.  

If you have specific questions, this is the place for 'em and the fan community here is always happy to help.  

 

... nah, Macross Delta just wasn't very well-written compared to Macross's usual level of quality.

IMO, the series did a poor job of laying out its additions to the setting... especially when it came to the Windermereans, who had most of their backstory presented in a gaiden manga rather than in the series proper.  (They're much more in line with Macross's sympathetic antagonists if you've read it, but if you haven't they're just kind of arbitrarily bastards.)

I think I just need to research fold waves 😆

 

I would definitely read the Gaiden manga if it were available in English. I know it's a common sentiment around here, but I sure wish Delta was overall more interesting. I wanted to like it. Maybe the new movie will give it some much needed life? Otherwise, on to the next era....

[Seto Kaiba]

2 minutes ago, 100mega said:

I think I just need to research fold waves 😆

"Fold waves" is a very broad topic that covers a LOT of territory.

They're broadly analogous to electromagnetic waves, but in higher-dimensional spacetime where they propagate at faster-than-light speeds.  Mechanically-generated fold waves are used in a variety of technologies.  They're the basis for FTL communications (fold communications) and FTL radar systems (fold wave radar).  The interaction between fold waves and a specific type of exotic matter called Heavy Quantum forms the basis for a bunch of other technologies including thermonuclear reactors, thermonuclear weapons, gravity control, fold navigation, and heavy quantum beam weaponry.  Heavy Quantum's an exotic particle that straddles the border between normal space and fold space, with most of its mass being on the fold space side.  Fold waves are used to manipulate how much of that mass is on the fold space side, allowing for precisely-controllable gravity modification using the super-high mass of the heavy quantum.

Biological life forms can also create fold waves on their own, in much the same way that the brain creates weak electromagnetic field activity (brainwaves).  It borders on the idea that the conscious mind has an intrinsic connection to higher dimensions.  Some individuals have the ability to create specific types of biological fold waves that are strong enough to be detectable by others or even influence others.  Song energy in Macross 7 was humanity's first real understanding of biological fold waves, with the anima spiritia being able to tune theirs in ways inimical to the higher-dimensional life forms called the Protodeviln.  The Vajra hive mind is essentially a form of distributed computer network created using biological fold waves.  Var syndrome in Macross Delta is an illness caused by exposure to specifically-tuned biological fold waves meant to interrupt their conscious thought process in much the same way that you could interfere with a person's thoughts using focused electromagnetic interference.

(Fold Quartz, a purer form of the dimensional oscillator fold carbon, can be used to create stronger fold waves that can bypass dimensional faults and other disruptions.)

 

2 minutes ago, 100mega said:

I would definitely read the Gaiden manga if it were available in English. I know it's a common sentiment around here, but I sure wish Delta was overall more interesting. I wanted to like it. Maybe the new movie will give it some much needed life? Otherwise, on to the next era....

There is a fan translation of Macross Delta: White Knight of the Black Wing floating around... I'd recommend checking your preferred manga agregator.

The new movie isn't going to offer much help to characterizing the Windermereans.  As far as I've heard, the Aerial Knights show up just long enough to get Worf'd and are promptly forgotten about except for Bogue.

[100mega]

38 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

"Fold waves" is a very broad topic that covers a LOT of territory.

They're broadly analogous to electromagnetic waves, but in higher-dimensional spacetime where they propagate at faster-than-light speeds.  Mechanically-generated fold waves are used in a variety of technologies.  They're the basis for FTL communications (fold communications) and FTL radar systems (fold wave radar).  The interaction between fold waves and a specific type of exotic matter called Heavy Quantum forms the basis for a bunch of other technologies including thermonuclear reactors, thermonuclear weapons, gravity control, fold navigation, and heavy quantum beam weaponry.  Heavy Quantum's an exotic particle that straddles the border between normal space and fold space, with most of its mass being on the fold space side.  Fold waves are used to manipulate how much of that mass is on the fold space side, allowing for precisely-controllable gravity modification using the super-high mass of the heavy quantum.

Biological life forms can also create fold waves on their own, in much the same way that the brain creates weak electromagnetic field activity (brainwaves).  It borders on the idea that the conscious mind has an intrinsic connection to higher dimensions.  Some individuals have the ability to create specific types of biological fold waves that are strong enough to be detectable by others or even influence others.  Song energy in Macross 7 was humanity's first real understanding of biological fold waves, with the anima spiritia being able to tune theirs in ways inimical to the higher-dimensional life forms called the Protodeviln.  The Vajra hive mind is essentially a form of distributed computer network created using biological fold waves.  Var syndrome in Macross Delta is an illness caused by exposure to specifically-tuned biological fold waves meant to interrupt their conscious thought process in much the same way that you could interfere with a person's thoughts using focused electromagnetic interference.

(Fold Quartz, a purer form of the dimensional oscillator fold carbon, can be used to create stronger fold waves that can bypass dimensional faults and other disruptions.)

 

There is a fan translation of Macross Delta: White Knight of the Black Wing floating around... I'd recommend checking your preferred manga agregator.

The new movie isn't going to offer much help to characterizing the Windermereans.  As far as I've heard, the Aerial Knights show up just long enough to get Worf'd and are promptly forgotten about except for Bogue.

Wow, above and beyond with the explanation. I appreciate it!

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, 100mega said:

Wow, above and beyond with the explanation. I appreciate it!

Happy to help.  

Like I said, if you have questions we have answers... the subject of fold waves is just a complex one since its importance expanded past the last major effort to put together a One Book to Rule Them All type reference.

[Invid99]

Was the Supervision army just another faction of giant humanoids like the Zentraedi from the 82 series? 

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, Invid99 said:

Was the Supervision army just another faction of giant humanoids like the Zentraedi from the 82 series? 

Sort of.

The Supervision Army was, at least originally, an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who had been captured, drained of their spiritia, and then brainwashed to fight for the Protodeviln during their rampage across the galaxy ~500,000 years before the series.

[pengbuzz]

25 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sort of.

The Supervision Army was, at least originally, an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who had been captured, drained of their spiritia, and then brainwashed to fight for the Protodeviln during their rampage across the galaxy ~500,000 years before the series.

So that entire war was basically the Protuculture versus their own creations the Protodevlin then? Or am I off on this?

[Seto Kaiba]

29 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So that entire war was basically the Protuculture versus their own creations the Protodevlin then? Or am I off on this?

Most of it.  The Supervision Army's leaders - the seven Protodeviln - were energy beings from fold space who were accidentally drawn into and trapped inside the bodies of the seven Evil-series bio-weapon prototypes being developed for the Protoculture's de facto cold war.  The Evil-series were something like an early version of the Birdhuman mecha from Macross Zero, and used an early version of the same fold dimensional energy conversion power system that was what accidentally sucked up those energy beings when it glitched during a test.

The energy beings who became known as the Protodeviln were understandably a bit shocked about the whole accident, and panicked because the dimension they'd just been yanked into had none of the natural higher-dimension energy they needed to survive except in the minds of sentient beings.  So the Protoculture's bungling handed them the unwanted New Objective: Survive that led to them draining the spiritia from everyone they ran across in a desperate attempt to not starve to death and using their victims as soldiers to secure more victims vampire-style.  30 GOTO 10 until the Protoculture were mostly wiped out and finally discovered a way to essentially give the Protodeviln food poisoning and stuff them into stasis.

Spoiler

Basically the entire plot of Macross 7 is the Protodeviln, recently accidentally freed by the Varauta colonists studying the Protoculture ruins in that system, trying to set up a sustainable spiritia farm so they wouldn't have to go on another galaxy-depopulating rampage.

Spoiler

The end result being that contact with Basara and Fire Bomber eventually taught them how to create their own spiritia internally without having to feed on others, eliminating the entire reason for the conflict so the remainder of the Protodeviln could gracefully excuse themselves and go live in peace.

 

 

[pengbuzz]

55 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Most of it.  The Supervision Army's leaders - the seven Protodeviln - were energy beings from fold space who were accidentally drawn into and trapped inside the bodies of the seven Evil-series bio-weapon prototypes being developed for the Protoculture's de facto cold war.  The Evil-series were something like an early version of the Birdhuman mecha from Macross Zero, and used an early version of the same fold dimensional energy conversion power system that was what accidentally sucked up those energy beings when it glitched during a test.

The energy beings who became known as the Protodeviln were understandably a bit shocked about the whole accident, and panicked because the dimension they'd just been yanked into had none of the natural higher-dimension energy they needed to survive except in the minds of sentient beings.  So the Protoculture's bungling handed them the unwanted New Objective: Survive that led to them draining the spiritia from everyone they ran across in a desperate attempt to not starve to death and using their victims as soldiers to secure more victims vampire-style.  30 GOTO 10 until the Protoculture were mostly wiped out and finally discovered a way to essentially give the Protodeviln food poisoning and stuff them into stasis.

  Hide contents

Basically the entire plot of Macross 7 is the Protodeviln, recently accidentally freed by the Varauta colonists studying the Protoculture ruins in that system, trying to set up a sustainable spiritia farm so they wouldn't have to go on another galaxy-depopulating rampage.

  Hide contents

The end result being that contact with Basara and Fire Bomber eventually taught them how to create their own spiritia internally without having to feed on others, eliminating the entire reason for the conflict so the remainder of the Protodeviln could gracefully excuse themselves and go live in peace.

 

 

Which means they were not exactly evil, just pulled into a situation they never wanted.

I wonder if they were also trying to find a way home to their own dimension over time? Perhaps with the Vajra war and other forays into fold space, they may find an avenue for that?

[Keith]

I always had the impression that the Protodevwlin were in fact returning home at the end of 7, now that they had the means of self sustaining energy to both get them there & share with their kind.

Through the fact that they didn't recall any of their previous forces, I also assume the Zentradi succeeded in wiping out the remnants of the original Supervision Army. If they didn't show up to back up the Protodevelin over the course of 7, then there'd be no other time for them to show up either. That was a hugely wasted opportunity. Imagine if the 7 fleet had managed to awaken a pure protoculture descendant (aside from whatever was in the ruins on Lux). Although, it's feasible that any PC in the Supervision Army would have been phased out at the end of their lifespans and replaced with Zentradi proper.

[RedWolf]

During the Factory Satellite heist a Supervision Army wreck was found but exploring it was not entertained due to the Supervision Army's booby trap tactics. 

Oh the Supervision Army is still around but are essentially a mop up exercise by the Zentradi. Both Milia and Chlore are noted aces of their respective fleets due to enemies shot down. 

 

For the past 500,000 years it has nothing but an guerilla war for the Supervsion Army against the Zentradi. Sabotaging Factory Satellites and laying booby traps for Zentradi.

 

Also unlike the Macross II continuity the NUN has not encountered another Main Fleet. UN Spacy/NUNS strategy is to take out any recon fleets from ever reporting to their Main Fleet. Most Zentradi encounters are 118th Main Fleet remnants that has not assimilated  to Earth culture. There are rare instances of encountering uncultured Zentradi like 20581976 Reconnaissance Squad, a Queadol-Magdomilla from the Koper Main Fleet in Macross the Ride. The Koper Main Fleet Mobile Fortress became a Vajra nest in the Frontier movie continuity. Meaning that Main Fleet is basically annihilated and Frontier Fleet encountered a remnant surviving vessel in combat. 

 

So far the Supervsion Army has not been formally made any First Contact.

[Seto Kaiba]

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

Which means they were not exactly evil, just pulled into a situation they never wanted.

That's the thing with Macross stories... nobody's evil.  The antagonists are generally decent people doing what they believe is right in their own specific context.

(Contrast with Gundam, where everyone's a bastard...)

 

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

I wonder if they were also trying to find a way home to their own dimension over time? Perhaps with the Vajra war and other forays into fold space, they may find an avenue for that?

Maybe.  What becomes of them after the events of Macross 7 aren't really clear... they just take off for parts unknown, announcing they have no further need of this galaxy because they've found a "spiritia paradise" by learning how to self-generate spiritia.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Keith said:

Through the fact that they didn't recall any of their previous forces, I also assume the Zentradi succeeded in wiping out the remnants of the original Supervision Army.

Nah, they're still very much around...

In Macross's very first episode, Vrlithwhai notes that the Supervision Army forces should've been withdrawing from the space around Earth eight terms (approx. 40 Earth years) ago when they trace the Supervision Army gunship's fold jump to Earth.

In episode 30, the crew of Vrlitwhai's ship stumbles on a Supervision Army derelict on their way to capture a factory satellite.  Exsedol examines it and notes that it appears to have been destroyed very recently, most likely after the remnants of Boddole Zer's main fleet scattered (meaning "in the last year and a half").

 

52 minutes ago, Keith said:

If they didn't show up to back up the Protodevelin over the course of 7, then there'd be no other time for them to show up either. That was a hugely wasted opportunity. Imagine if the 7 fleet had managed to awaken a pure protoculture descendant (aside from whatever was in the ruins on Lux). Although, it's feasible that any PC in the Supervision Army would have been phased out at the end of their lifespans and replaced with Zentradi proper.

Remember, the galaxy is a VERY big place and fold navigation is an absolutely terrible way to explore it.  The only way to communicate is the equivalent of long-range radio which anyone listening can hear and trace, and getting around is basically teleportation.  You don't get to see what's between Point A and Point B... you can only see what's immediately around you once you pop out at Point B.  (This is why emigrant fleets deploy large advance scouting forces, so they don't accidentally blunder into anything, fold into the path of something like a comet, or a Zentradi fleet, etc., like what happened to Macross Valiant.)

Long term, the Protodeviln probably did intend to find what remained of the Supervision Army and link up with it... if only to bring it under control again.  But they were weakened from their defeat by the anima spiritia and their long imprisonment and were likely trying to keep a low profile until they could build up enough of a force to be sure they wouldn't simply get stomped by the first Zentradi main fleet they ran into.

The Supervision Army's a massive force like the Zentradi, so it wouldn't exactly have made for a believably winnable fight if one of their main fleets had been present when the titular Macross 7 fleet was struggling with a force only a few times larger than itself.

[Seto Kaiba]

15 minutes ago, RedWolf said:

Also unlike the Macross II continuity the NUN has not encountered another Main Fleet.

Well, not in any direct depictions in the official setting... there have been remarks about the New UN Forces occasionally bumping into other Zentradi, and the Master File books have made a few mentions to that effect involving near misses or abject losses to other main fleets.

[pengbuzz]

50 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, not in any direct depictions in the official setting... there have been remarks about the New UN Forces occasionally bumping into other Zentradi, and the Master File books have made a few mentions to that effect involving near misses or abject losses to other main fleets.

So UN Spacy in MII must be considerably more powerful than in other iterations in order to be able to encounter main fleets and not have a sudden fleetwide shortage of clean trousers?

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

So UN Spacy in MII must be considerably more powerful than in other iterations in order to be able to encounter main fleets and not have a sudden fleetwide shortage of clean trousers?

Oh, the arrival of a Zentradi (or Meltrandi) main fleet is still absolutely 100% "fetch my brown trousers" time for most if not all of the Macross II parallel world timeline.

Unlike the main timeline, in Macross II's timeline Earth is attacked by Zentradi fleets of various sizes with downright monotonous regularity in the wake of the First Space War.  The Minmay Attack strategy got a lot of polish and refinement in that period, to the point that dealing with small Zentradi forces like branch fleets became somewhat routine.  On those rare occasions when something larger showed up it was still a major crisis.  The 2036 attack on Earth by the Neld main fleet saw the UN Forces pushed to the breaking point, and victory was only achieved by the tried-and-true tactic of using the Minmay Attack as a diversion and going after the command ships to force the larger fleet to withdraw once their command ships were sunk.  2037's run-in with the Burado main fleet saw humanity basically lose the war because the Burado forces initially appeared immune to Minmay Attack tactics (actually a product of salvaged Protoculture communications tech encrypting the fleet's comms).  Humanity's bacon was saved by the Burado fleet not being hell-bent on destruction, and having actually come to let Earth do the heavy lifting against the Meltrandi Leplendis fleet that was chasing them.  Leplendis concluded humans were a surviving enclave of the Protoculture and ordered her fleet out of the area, and Burado's forces got taken down in the standard manner afterwards.  The 2054 invasion saw most of the UN Forces wiped out in a conflict that lasted the better part of a year.

It wasn't until the early 2080s, when humanity had made major strides in weapons technology that dealing with large Zentradi fleets became manageable.  That was when they'd introduced massive gunships that could one-shot branch fleets and so on.  (That's right around the point where the UN Forces start becoming complacent, which Sylvie complains about to Exegran at the start of the OVA.)

Of course, you also have to wonder if the 2082 victory was really THAT easy... since the general public (e.g. Hibiki) only saw the sanitized press reels and not the unredacted war photography like what Hibiki got to shoot himself in 2092 when the Mardook invaded.

[pengbuzz]

21 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, the arrival of a Zentradi (or Meltrandi) main fleet is still absolutely 100% "fetch my brown trousers" time for most if not all of the Macross II parallel world timeline.

Unlike the main timeline, in Macross II's timeline Earth is attacked by Zentradi fleets of various sizes with downright monotonous regularity in the wake of the First Space War.  The Minmay Attack strategy got a lot of polish and refinement in that period, to the point that dealing with small Zentradi forces like branch fleets became somewhat routine.  On those rare occasions when something larger showed up it was still a major crisis.  The 2036 attack on Earth by the Neld main fleet saw the UN Forces pushed to the breaking point, and victory was only achieved by the tried-and-true tactic of using the Minmay Attack as a diversion and going after the command ships to force the larger fleet to withdraw once their command ships were sunk.  2037's run-in with the Burado main fleet saw humanity basically lose the war because the Burado forces initially appeared immune to Minmay Attack tactics (actually a product of salvaged Protoculture communications tech encrypting the fleet's comms).  Humanity's bacon was saved by the Burado fleet not being hell-bent on destruction, and having actually come to let Earth do the heavy lifting against the Meltrandi Leplendis fleet that was chasing them.  Leplendis concluded humans were a surviving enclave of the Protoculture and ordered her fleet out of the area, and Burado's forces got taken down in the standard manner afterwards.  The 2054 invasion saw most of the UN Forces wiped out in a conflict that lasted the better part of a year.

It wasn't until the early 2080s, when humanity had made major strides in weapons technology that dealing with large Zentradi fleets became manageable.  That was when they'd introduced massive gunships that could one-shot branch fleets and so on.  (That's right around the point where the UN Forces start becoming complacent, which Sylvie complains about to Exegran at the start of the OVA.)

Of course, you also have to wonder if the 2082 victory was really THAT easy... since the general public (e.g. Hibiki) only saw the sanitized press reels and not the unredacted war photography like what Hibiki got to shoot himself in 2092 when the Mardook invaded.

All very good points; that said, I think the other timeline would be somewhat envious of their abilities.

[RedWolf]

4 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

All very good points; that said, I think the other timeline would be somewhat envious of their abilities.

Achievement wise the Kawamori continuity is much more impressive with Human expansion and rapid technological progress. Due to stealing 20 Factory Satellites. Macross II continuity was less ambitious as UN Spacy stole one Factory Satellite at a time , twice. However Macross II being a direct sequel to DYRL much of their warships are Zentradi ships leftover from Space War 1. They only produced their later generation capitals after they stole their second Factory Satellite. The pace also of their VF development is not as rapid as the original designer of the VF-1 survived and it got its life extended with the VF-1R series. There is no VF designer competition between Shinsei Industries and General Galaxy as it is monopolized by the Tachikoff Company. Sure there is a VF-4 Siren but it significantly different from the VF-4 Lightning III as it is more like the VF-1 in transformation.

Edited December 5, 2021 by RedWolf

[Invid99]

11 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Sort of.

The Supervision Army was, at least originally, an ad hoc force made up of the Protoculture and Zentradi who had been captured, drained of their spiritia, and then brainwashed to fight for the Protodeviln during their rampage across the galaxy ~500,000 years before the series.

So is the Varauta Army in Macross 7 the Supervision army the Zentraedi fought against 500k years ago? The same mecha and ships? 

[Keith]

3 hours ago, Invid99 said:

So is the Varauta Army in Macross 7 the Supervision army the Zentraedi fought against 500k years ago? The same mecha and ships? 

No, they're the U.N. Spacy's Varuta Expedition fleet retooled by the Protodevelin + additional personnel from the Macross 5 fleet also retooled by the Protodevilin.