The Newbie and Short Questions thread

[Seto Kaiba]

5 hours ago, Sildani said:

Was it ever stated what unit Isamu Dyson was assigned to before his forceable transfer to New Edwards? 

Nope.  His last mentioned assignment was the "outer space special science force" in 2039 October.

 

5 hours ago, Sildani said:

Any resource, as well, for the colors UN Spacy flight suits were made in at the time of Macross Plus? Were they all blue with white bits?

The specific model Isamu wore is said to be the standard model used by the (New) UN Forces c.2040.  IIRC there's something in Master File about earlier marks of that suit being white instead of blue, but that's not official setting material.

 

5 hours ago, Sildani said:

Lastly: for the VF-11, the model kits seem to have the panel lined area of the wing roots made with transparent bits. The Yamato toys are blanked off solid grey. Which is correct, and what’s under there, do we know?Thanks!

It's marked up in the line art as a sensor system in the line art, so it's probably supposed to be a polarized cover like the ones on the YF-19, YF-21, etc.  As to what kind, probably the VF-11's FLIR cameras, LIDAR array, and optical sensors like the similar hybrid sensor clusters on the aforementioned VFs and their successors.  The VF-11 Master File, if it's written properly, may clear that up somewhat.

The animation generally represents it as an opaque panel though.

[mickyg]

On 1/19/2019 at 2:53 AM, Vagabond Elf said:

It is of course your display, and you should prioritise what makes you the most satisfied. My approach, though, is usually less "this exactly matches the official art" and more "this is vaguely justifiable and looks good." It sounds to me like you want to go with "looks good" and are hung up on "but it's not 'correct'." If so, you simply need to decide which parameter is more important to you.

I do think the mix would look cool, FWIW.

Thanks for your comments Vagabond.  It's actually a bit of both.  I like sticking with what was "officially" seen so it's not quite so jarring (in my opinion) but I'm also not so rigid as to not want to have a bit of fun with it.  With some limits...

On 1/19/2019 at 3:35 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Quite frankly, I'm on the side of "looks good" over 100% accuracy.

For the classic TV VF-1J, the red accents on the missiles will really pop against the white airframe.

Thanks both of you for the info on real world weapons, too.  I study these things a fair bit too and appreciate some of the background info.

I think the red accents will work well also.  However, the TV HMR Valks come with the red backed missiles and they do look a bit "much" in my opinion.  I'm hoping to come up with a way to make it look a little more realistic.  I'm not sure there are any real world examples of missiles with huge red sections to draw from, but I'll see what I can find.

A mixed load out could be fun.  I also like how the Hasegawa set positions the weapons on the triple ejector rack, rather than the toy's (all of which I'm aware of from Bandai as well as Yamato/Arcadia) straight alignment.  The model kit has the bottom missile sitting a bit in front of the two closest to the wing.

[Vagabond Elf]

22 hours ago, mickyg said:

I think the red accents will work well also.  However, the TV HMR Valks come with the red backed missiles and they do look a bit "much" in my opinion.  I'm hoping to come up with a way to make it look a little more realistic.  I'm not sure there are any real world examples of missiles with huge red sections to draw from, but I'll see what I can find.

Perhaps a red seeker cap and a thinner red stripe near the fins?

 

I found this:

http://www.fast-air.co.uk/raf-nato-weapons-markings/

Which discusses a few RAF weapons. It might give you ideas. 

[blackconvoy_D01]

Could any of the Macross class/ scale ships beat King J-Der from Gaogaigar?

[JB0]

54 minutes ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

Could any of the Macross class/ scale ships beat King J-Der from Gaogaigar?

Nope. They can't fight because they're in diffrent universes.

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, blackconvoy_D01 said:

Could any of the Macross class/ scale ships beat King J-Der from Gaogaigar?

Lol  Mega-Fusion!

Now THAT is funny!

One blast from the main canon of the Mega road should do it. (Maybe that’s where they went,  @JB0!)

Edited February 17, 2019 by Bolt

[blackconvoy_D01]

2 hours ago, Bolt said:

Lol  Mega-Fusion!

Now THAT is funny!

One blast from the main canon of the Mega road should do it. (Maybe that’s where they went,  @JB0!)

See I thought that too, but the JQuath doesn't take as long to ready for it's attack.

2 hours ago, JB0 said:

Nope. They can't fight because they're in diffrent universes.

LOL, technically true.

[JB0]

If we're actually going to do this... I note that the mechanoids in Gaogaigar are LITERALLY powered by hot-blooded passion. Soldato J will just get excited enough that he can take the damage without falling  The heroes can ALWAYS take the damage in super robot shows. 

Also, the writers will obviously make the Megaroad crew team up with J and the Gutsy Galaxy Guard to fight the REAL enemies. So neither side can win in a fight even if they DO make it to the same dimension.

[blackconvoy_D01]

9 hours ago, JB0 said:

If we're actually going to do this... I note that the mechanoids in Gaogaigar are LITERALLY powered by hot-blooded passion. Soldato J will just get excited enough that he can take the damage without falling  The heroes can ALWAYS take the damage in super robot shows. 

Also, the writers will obviously make the Megaroad crew team up with J and the Gutsy Galaxy Guard to fight the REAL enemies. So neither side can win in a fight even if they DO make it to the same dimension.

Very true. My question was all in good fun. However before discovering Gaogaigar- I used to think the Macross and say Go Lion were the tops in their areas, but seeing Gaogaigar made me think about it more and wanted to see what others thought.

[leonhardt]

I just finished watching SDF Macross TV, DYRL and FB2012 and about to watch Macross Plus. I know that the trio disappeared in 2016. But about Hikaru and Hayase getting married and having a kid. Where was this mentioned? Did I miss something in the anime? From the wiki, they even got the date of when they had a kid and from the Macross Compendium, their date of the wedding and a photo of them. Where are the sources for this and is there a link? cause I wanna read it myself. Or is it gonna be mentioned in the later titles?  

[Seto Kaiba]

59 minutes ago, leonhardt said:

I just finished watching SDF Macross TV, DYRL and FB2012 and about to watch Macross Plus. I know that the trio disappeared in 2016. But about Hikaru and Hayase getting married and having a kid. Where was this mentioned?

It's not something that was mentioned in the animation, only in the artbooks.

 

Quote

Did I miss something in the anime? From the wiki, they even got the date of when they had a kid and from the Macross Compendium, their date of the wedding and a photo of them. Where are the sources for this and is there a link? cause I wanna read it myself.

Hikaru and Misa's wedding is mentioned in several different artbooks including Macross Graffiti, Macross Times, Macross Guidebook, Macross Chronicle, etc.  Somewhat frustratingly, the date is given differently on each occasion.  Macross Graffiti had it as 2011 Oct 10, Macross Guidebook as 2012 Oct 10, and Macross Times as 2013 June.  Later sources generally agree they got married in 2012 before Megaroad-01 launched.  There's not an associated story I'm aware of, it's just a factoid that comes up periodically.

The Macross Wiki is... not the most reliable of sites.  The image they have of Hikaru, Misa, and Miku is from Macross Graffiti, which is also IIRC the source that mentions her as being born in New Era 0001 (2013).

 

Quote

Or is it gonna be mentioned in the later titles?  

Ah, no... Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay sailed off into the proverbial sunset aboard the SDF-2 Megaroad-01 and that's the last we see or hear of 'em.

The subsequent disappearance of the Megaroad-01 in 2016 does become something of an enduring mystery in-universe, but not one that has any real impact on the story.  Their story ended with Flash Back 2012, so it's up to new generations of characters to carry the torch from then on.

The characters are famed in-story for historical reasons and because of the various popular dramatizations of the First Space War that have been released in-universe like the film Do You Remember Love?, the 2045 docu-drama The Lynn Minmay Story, and a later docu-drama The Lynn Minmay Files, but Minmay's the only one who really gets mentioned regularly because she was the first Macross idol and so every other one is inevitably compared to her at some point.  At least until the number of other "greats" stack up to the point that they start comparing against a list or (at one point) suggest the Minmay comparison might be a little outdated fifty-odd years later.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Seto Kaiba
I have done terrible things with commas here... needed to clean that up.

[leonhardt]

52 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's not something that was mentioned in the animation, only in the artbooks.

 

Hikaru and Misa's wedding is mentioned in several different artbooks including Macross Graffiti, Macross Times, Macross Guidebook, Macross Chronicle, etc.  Somewhat frustratingly, the date is given differently on each occasion.  Macross Graffiti had it as 2011 Oct 10, Macross Guidebook as 2012 Oct 10, and Macross Times as 2013 June.  Later sources generally agree they got married in 2012 before Megaroad-01 launched.  There's not an associated story I'm aware of, it's just a factoid that comes up periodically.

The Macross Wiki is... not the most reliable of sites.  The image they have of Hikaru, Misa, and Miku is from Macross Graffiti, which is also IIRC the source that mentions her as being born in New Era 0001 (2013).

 

Ah, no... Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay sailed off into the proverbial sunset aboard the SDF-2 Megaroad-01 and that's the last we see or hear of 'em.

The subsequent disappearance of the Megaroad-01 in 2016 does become something of an enduring mystery in-universe, but not one that has any real impact on the story.  Their story ended with Flash Back 2012, so it's up to new generations of characters to carry the torch from then on.

The characters are famed in-story for historical reasons and because of the various popular dramatizations of the First Space War that have been released in-universe like the film Do You Remember Love?, the 2045 docu-drama The Lynn Minmay Story, and a later docu-drama The Lynn Minmay Files, but Minmay's the only one who really gets mentioned regularly because she was the first Macross idol and so every other one is inevitably compared to her at some point.  At least until the number of other "greats" stack up to the point that they start comparing against a list or (at one point) suggest the Minmay comparison might be a little outdated fifty-odd years later.

Ahhh I see. That clears up my questions now. Thanks bro! Would check out the artbooks after I finish up with Macross plus 

[Penguin sushi]

Ok since i have been out for a while is there a list that has all the shows in chronological order.

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Ok since i have been out for a while is there a list that has all the shows in chronological order.

Production chronological order or in-series chronological order?

Production Chronological Order
Super Dimension Fortress Macross
Macross: Do You Remember Love?
Macross: Flash Back 2012
Macross II: Lovers Again
Macross Plus
Macross 7
Macross 7: the Galaxy is Calling Me!
Macross Dynamite 7
Macross Zero
Macross Frontier
Macross Frontier: the False Songstress
Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye
Macross Delta
Macross Delta: Passionate Walkure
Macross Delta: <title forthcoming>

In-Universe Chronological Order (Main Timeline, movie versions concurrent with TV versions)
Super Dimension Fortress Macross (prologue and Claudia flashback episodes) 1999-2007
Macross Zero (2008)
Super Dimension Fortress Macross (2009-2012)
Macross: Flash Back 2012 (2012)
Macross: Do You Remember Love? (2031, as an in-universe movie)
Macross Plus (2040)
Macross 7 (2045-2046)
Macross 7: the Galaxy is Calling Me! (2046, during the series)
Macross Dynamite 7 (2047)
Macross Frontier (2059)
Macross Delta (2067)

In-Universe Chronological Order (DYRLverse)
Macross: Do You Remember Love? (2009-2010)
Macross: Flash Back 2012 (2012)
Macross II: Lovers Again (2091-2092)

[Bub]

Hey Seto, I don’t see Macross Plus the movie in the list. Any reason for that?

[Master Dex]

It would only merit a call out in the first list. He probably just forgot it though. It was a double feature with the Macross 7 movie if I recall, so that's when it came out. 

He also left out FB7, presumably because he couldn't handle the BEAUTY of VHS stock footage. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Hey Seto, I don’t see Macross Plus the movie in the list. Any reason for that?

Honestly?  I forgot.

Macross Plus: the Movie has so little to distinguish it from the OVA that the two tend to run together in my mind.

[Aries Turner]

Besides, even SDF has been stated as a docudrama.

It is like watching Vikings: it most certainly DIDN'T happen as depicted. But you get the general idea.

Macross 7: Encore and Macross 7: The Movie supposedly fit somewhere between Macross7 episodes 38-42.

Also, Macross 7 use retro mobile phones, and Macross F go full retro. Although there are real world considerations for this, I fancy the in universe reason as culture preservation. Think about it this way: if an all out war destroys everything, how desperately would you cling even to banal things that you may have even despised before, like Vegas Vic. Most if not all higher forms of art are lost forever. What remains is 3D reproductions of 2D footage or vaguely remembered objects. With the odd artifact that survived the onslaught.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Aries Turner
Grammar.

[Seto Kaiba]

54 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Besides, even SDF has been stated as a docudrama.

It is like watching Vikings: it most certainly DIDN'T happen as depicted. But you get the general idea.

Well, that's Kawamori's current view... how applicable it is seems to vary from work to work and it's occasionally contradicted by other explanations that predate it.

 

54 minutes ago, Aries Turner said:

Also, Macross 7 use retro mobile phones, and Macross F go full retro. Although there are real world considerations for this, I fancy the in universe reason as culture preservation. Think about it this way: if an all out war destroys everything, how desperately would you cling even to banal things that you may have even despised before, like Vegas Vic. Most if not all higher forms of art are lost forever. What remains is 3D reproductions of 2D footage or vaguely remembered objects. With the odd artifact that survived the onslaught.

To a certain extent, the zeerust in Macross 7 and Macross Frontier is a justified trope in-universe.

The designers of many emigrant ships apparently designed the habitat areas of the ships with a pre-First Space War aesthetic to invoke a sense of psychological security in the civilians who would be living there for years if not decades while searching for a new home planet.  

Macross Frontier, however, was the only one to explicitly make ALL of the zeerust intentional in-universe as a deliberate aesthetic choice on the part of the titular fleet.  The population was apparently committed enough to the fleet's theme of retro Earth cultural preservation that they not only deliberately recreated iconic parts of several major prewar Earth cities on the Island-1, they deliberately engineered highly visible consumer tech like cars to appear period-appropriate even if the technology under the hood wasn't.

Spoiler

Exactly what technology they're using isn't clear... but given that the CG models all have visible tailpipes, it may be the same hydrogen combustion engines used on earlier cars built for emigrant ship use.

 

[sketchley]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross Frontier, however, was the only one to explicitly make ALL of the zeerust intentional in-universe as a deliberate aesthetic choice on the part of the titular fleet.  The population was apparently committed enough to the fleet's theme of retro Earth cultural preservation that they not only deliberately recreated iconic parts of several major prewar Earth cities on the Island-1, they deliberately engineered highly visible consumer tech like cars to appear period-appropriate even if the technology under the hood wasn't.

 

There's an in-universe reason for that as well: tourism (from other Emigrant Fleets, etc.)

[Sandman]

@Seto Kaiba ever think of writing an article or blog post of all your MW posts detailing the VF history and evolution. I find those posts fascinating but I eventually forget some details. Trying to dig up the posts here is frustrating in a needle in a haystack way. It’d Be handy to have it somewhere it could be found easier.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, Sandman said:

@Seto Kaiba ever think of writing an article or blog post of all your MW posts detailing the VF history and evolution. I find those posts fascinating but I eventually forget some details. Trying to dig up the posts here is frustrating in a needle in a haystack way. It’d Be handy to have it somewhere it could be found easier.

I've got a plan in the works to go quite a bit farther than that.

Over the last couple of years various folks have gently suggested I really need to properly organize and systematize my collection of Macross knowledge and/or start publishing all the translations and analyses I've done over the years.  I've been supporting the Macross Mecha Manual by handling its web hosting and providing translations for some of its articles, but the scope of my own work has increased quite a bit and no longer really fits within the site's narrow focus.  I didn't really have the time to do anything about it until last year, when my day job had a reorg that solved my team's critical manpower shortage.  Not having to log 20+ hours of OT every week freed up a lot of time for other pursuits, so a few friends and I started giving serious thought to creating a Macross reference site with proper academic rigor.

Right now, the site itself is still a work in progress.  Designs for the various pages are more or less finalized, but the actual coding is slow going since my web design skills are rusty as hell after five years of not being used.  I've got all the tools together except for a replacement for my ancient scanner that won't work on Windows 10 (recommendations would be enthusiastically welcomed), and at some point in the coming months I'm gonna have to find an artist to commission a few simple pieces that my art-fu is too weak to do myself.

[Sandman]

34 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I've got a plan in the works to go quite a bit farther than that.

Over the last couple of years various folks have gently suggested I really need to properly organize and systematize my collection of Macross knowledge and/or start publishing all the translations and analyses I've done over the years.  I've been supporting the Macross Mecha Manual by handling its web hosting and providing translations for some of its articles, but the scope of my own work has increased quite a bit and no longer really fits within the site's narrow focus.  I didn't really have the time to do anything about it until last year, when my day job had a reorg that solved my team's critical manpower shortage.  Not having to log 20+ hours of OT every week freed up a lot of time for other pursuits, so a few friends and I started giving serious thought to creating a Macross reference site with proper academic rigor.

Right now, the site itself is still a work in progress.  Designs for the various pages are more or less finalized, but the actual coding is slow going since my web design skills are rusty as hell after five years of not being used.  I've got all the tools together except for a replacement for my ancient scanner that won't work on Windows 10 (recommendations would be enthusiastically welcomed), and at some point in the coming months I'm gonna have to find an artist to commission a few simple pieces that my art-fu is too weak to do myself.

That’s great news.  Looking forward to it. If you need a hand let me know. Not an artist but I’m an IT professional.

[HardlyNever]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Right now, the site itself is still a work in progress.  Designs for the various pages are more or less finalized, but the actual coding is slow going since my web design skills are rusty as hell after five years of not being used.  I've got all the tools together except for a replacement for my ancient scanner that won't work on Windows 10 (recommendations would be enthusiastically welcomed), and at some point in the coming months I'm gonna have to find an artist to commission a few simple pieces that my art-fu is too weak to do myself.

I'm not sure what quality level you're going for, but for consumer-grade scanning and printing I've been happy with Brother's stuff.  If you're looking for something that would be more useful for scanning books, magazines, etc. we use Epson scanners where I work, for archival quality photos.

I'm also a web developer at my day job.  I appreciate the knowledge you bring to the community, so I would be willing to help a bit on that end (pro bono), if you felt it would help.  As long as it isn't too involved.

Edited April 5, 2019 by HardlyNever

[AN/ALQ128]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I've got a plan in the works to go quite a bit farther than that.

Over the last couple of years various folks have gently suggested I really need to properly organize and systematize my collection of Macross knowledge and/or start publishing all the translations and analyses I've done over the years.  I've been supporting the Macross Mecha Manual by handling its web hosting and providing translations for some of its articles, but the scope of my own work has increased quite a bit and no longer really fits within the site's narrow focus.  I didn't really have the time to do anything about it until last year, when my day job had a reorg that solved my team's critical manpower shortage.  Not having to log 20+ hours of OT every week freed up a lot of time for other pursuits, so a few friends and I started giving serious thought to creating a Macross reference site with proper academic rigor.

Right now, the site itself is still a work in progress.  Designs for the various pages are more or less finalized, but the actual coding is slow going since my web design skills are rusty as hell after five years of not being used.  I've got all the tools together except for a replacement for my ancient scanner that won't work on Windows 10 (recommendations would be enthusiastically welcomed), and at some point in the coming months I'm gonna have to find an artist to commission a few simple pieces that my art-fu is too weak to do myself.

Definitely looking forward to that.

[RedWolf]

It occurs to me isn't the NUNG basically the EU with different levels of membership? It sorta explains Zola and Windermere's status as Associate members. Windermere went for full independence. While Voldor having something closer to full membership with NUNS forces. It is also said the NUNG doesn't have much influence in the Brisingr Cluster despite being colonized by NUN. Plus the cluster has its own association with the Brisingr Alliance. It is noted that Federal NUNS can't just be sent in the cluster.

 

We know there is a decentralization giving fleets and planets more autonomy. Perhaps there are levels of such?

 

For example Macross 29 Fleet has no known military fleet. How is that possible? And they have problems trading with other fleets. Could it be they are barely an Associate member status?

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

It occurs to me isn't the NUNG basically the EU with different levels of membership?

Well, I'm not sure about the idea of different levels of membership... but Kawamori did indicate in the Otona Anime #9 interview about Macross Frontier that the European Union was the modern governing body most closely resembling the function of the New Unification Government (c.2059).

 

Quote

It sorta explains Zola and Windermere's status as Associate members. Windermere went for full independence. While Voldor having something closer to full membership with NUNS forces.

Zola's status was never really discussed... though as I recall it was generally assumed that the planet was something akin to a protectorate back before Macross Frontier.  Now they seem to be full members who are simply too peace-loving to want to maintain a proper military so they have a well-equipped but studiously non-lethal space police force instead.

Given what's said in Macross Delta and the gaiden manga, Windermere IV and the other worlds of the Brisingr globular cluster are (or were, in Windermere case) full New Unification Government members with all the ups and downs that entails.  The Kingdom of the Wind's war of independence was essentially fought because Windermere IV's leaders felt that its membership in the New Unification Government was all give and no take.  Specifically, because their planet was so remote and isolated by fold faults they were having troubles with growing their economy, and they felt the government was not only not doing enough to help but actively hurting their situation via the heavy restrictions it imposed on mining and trading in fold quartz (Windermere IV's only significant non-agricultural resource).  They were also less than thrilled by the losses they took as a result of having sent reinforcements to support neighboring systems attacked by rogue Zentradi as per their obligations as a New UN Government member.  (It was almost a war fought over "What have you done for me lately?"... since Windermere IV was benefitting significantly from all the technology they were importing.)

One of the things established back in Macross 7 and finessed heavily by Frontier was that the individual emigrant fleet and planet governments have a lot of latitude in deciding how to organize and equip their local defense forces.  They operate under the auspices of the New UN Forces, but they're not necessarily all organized the same.  Macross Galaxy's was a corporate army that operated as the fleet's local New UN Forces.  Windermere IV's Aerial Knights were the same, operating as their planet's New UN Spacy defense force during the world's thirty-three year stint as a New UN Government member, reinforcing other NUNG member worlds under attack and so on.  Their different taste in equipment seems to have had its roots in their feudal martial tradition more than anything organizational.

 

Quote

It is also said the NUNG doesn't have much influence in the Brisingr Cluster despite being colonized by NUN. Plus the cluster has its own association with the Brisingr Alliance. It is noted that Federal NUNS can't just be sent in the cluster.

That's probably got a lot more to do with the sheer remoteness of the Brisingr globular cluster than anything else.

The Brisingr globular cluster is 10+ years from Earth by space fold, in a fairly isolated region of the galaxy.  It's noted to have had some moderately negative consequences for their economic growth.  The Brisingr Alliance is basically space-NATO meets space-NAFTA, a mutual defense and economic partnership of astrographically-close states.  Their isolation and the ensuing economic problems were cited as a reason they opted to develop their own 5th Generation VF, to stimulate their own economy, keep the cash inside the cluster, and to hopefully produce something they could sell in export.  (In a close parallel to the Mitsubishi ATD-X/X-2, including in that they basically ended up buying a ton of hardware from the outside anyway.)

The difficulty with getting the Federal New UN Forces involved in the conflict with Windermere IV was explicitly political, the conflict was seen as a tiff between emigrant planets so the federal forces were taking a hands-off approach because getting involved would be politically difficult.  (The heavy-handed suppression of emigrant planets in the 2040s and 2050s hadn't exactly been forgotten yet... you might remember them as the events that came to a head in the Macross VF-X2 game.)

 

Quote

For example Macross 29 Fleet has no known military fleet. How is that possible? And they have problems trading with other fleets. Could it be they are barely an Associate member status?

With respect to the above about the local government of the NUNG member states having broad authority over the maintenance of their armed forces, Macross-29's case is one of the fleet government voluntarily disbanding its armed forces.  Macross-29 was a gathering place of sorts for people with strong pacifist leanings, and many of its inhabitants moved there from elsewhere in the galaxy to get away from various conflicts.  That profound aversion to conflict led the fleet to disband its armed forces and install pacifist doormat Serge Glass (brother to deceased Macross Frontier fleet president Howard Glass) as City-29's mayor.

Macross-29's severe trade deficit and the ensuing economic crash were a product of the City-29 government's commitment to its policy of total pacifism and unarmed neutrality.  It made the Macross-29 fleet government into extreme doormats in their trade negotiations with neighboring fleets and nearby planets.  They were so conflict-averse that they would eventually agree to even the most unilaterally unfavorable terms if it meant avoiding a fight, so their neighbors took merciless advantage of them until their economy was teetering at the brink of total collapse and high unemployment had riled the population enough that a significant portion of it was ready to remove Glass by the ballot or the bullet and start busting heads if that's what it took to balance trade with their neighbors.  That, of course, was embodied by the Neo Zentran political movement that favored reinstating the fleet's armed forces and assuming a stronger posture in the fleet's negotiations with its neighbors.  (The two prominent sides of the Neo Zentran movement being, essentially, those who favored "ballot" like the protagonist and those who favored "bullet".)

Edited April 8, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

2 hours ago, RedWolf said:

It occurs to me isn't the NUNG basically the EU with different levels of membership? It sorta explains Zola and Windermere's status as Associate members. Windermere went for full independence. While Voldor having something closer to full membership with NUNS forces. It is also said the NUNG doesn't have much influence in the Brisingr Cluster despite being colonized by NUN. Plus the cluster has its own association with the Brisingr Alliance. It is noted that Federal NUNS can't just be sent in the cluster.

 

We know there is a decentralization giving fleets and planets more autonomy. Perhaps there are levels of such?

 

For example Macross 29 Fleet has no known military fleet. How is that possible? And they have problems trading with other fleets. Could it be they are barely an Associate member status?

(Edit: Of course Seto got there first, his answer is gonna be better, I just felt like trying lol. I'll leave mine though) 

 

Basically, yes. 

To specific points, Windermere was more of a protectorate, but NUNG screwed them over pretty badly trying to keep control on fold quartz to avoid dimensional weapon proliferation. It led to disagreements. Other worlds might not have it so bad if they're not in possession of such dangerous resources. 

Brisingr cluster is considered to be very back water and the fleets there are low funded cause except for Windermere (which NUNS doesn't control but made it impossible for them to trade in fold quartz elsewhere) there is nothing important. So it makes sense it's more autonomy (hell it has worlds with active civil wars going on). 

So I'd say degree of autonomy is based on location and relevance. They're is probably a certain required level of self governance allowed since the decentralization started too. Comparing NUNG to the EU but with executive power is pretty accurate it seems. 

As for Macross 29, the answer to your questions in order presented are: With enormous difficulty, yes, and rather than be ignored, they get picked on by other NUNG states cause they can't exactly stand up for themselves. In fact their economy is in shreds due to having no defense industry at all and being the butt monkey of other fleets/worlds. I imagine they're a member because of they didn't have those basic NUNG rights and legal protections they'd have been entirely destroyed by now. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Master Dex

[azrael]

2 hours ago, Master Dex said:

Brisingr cluster is considered to be very back water and the fleets there are low funded cause except for Windermere,..

I’m going to disagree with the use of “back water” here. Seto is correct with the use of “remote”. If they were stagnant in development, they would be using older craft, but the NUNS forces were using VF-171s and VF-22s which are fairly modern for that time. There was a healthy trade and tourism economy in this cluster. Up until Delta, most of Macross has focused relatively close to the Galactic Core, while Delta decided to focus as far away from there as it could from the map. 

[Master Dex]

2 hours ago, azrael said:

I’m going to disagree with the use of “back water” here. Seto is correct with the use of “remote”. If they were stagnant in development, they would be using older craft, but the NUNS forces were using VF-171s and VF-22s which are fairly modern for that time. There was a healthy trade and tourism economy in this cluster. Up until Delta, most of Macross has focused relatively close to the Galactic Core, while Delta decided to focus as far away from there as it could from the map. 

You're right, my terminology wasn't very fair or accurate. At the very least I chose it as a colloquialism that was out of place rather than an intention to describe the region specifically.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

You're right, my terminology wasn't very fair or accurate. At the very least I chose it as a colloquialism that was out of place rather than an intention to describe the region specifically.

You could make a compelling case that Windermere IV actually deserves the appellation "backwater", since it's so far off the beaten path that the SDF-5 Megaroad-04 only found it by crashing into the fold faults around it, it's isolated by those same fold faults, its economy is stagnant, underdeveloped, and principally agricultural, the locals are living with the cultural values of a bygone era, and there's more than a little folksy racism on display.

As I remarked a bit snarkily on some of the episode reviews, you can practically hear banjos on the fold jump there.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

You could make a compelling case that Windermere IV actually deserves the appellation "backwater", since it's so far off the beaten path that the SDF-5 Megaroad-04 only found it by crashing into the fold faults around it, it's isolated by those same fold faults, its economy is stagnant, underdeveloped, and principally agricultural, the locals are living with the cultural values of a bygone era, and there's more than a little folksy racism on display.

As I remarked a bit snarkily on some of the episode reviews, you can practically hear banjos on the fold jump there.

This does lead me to a curiosity... those fold faults.. how do they leave the system? Well with the fold quartz it can be done obviously.. and in the show they largely rely on Sigur Valens to project zero-lag folds for them... but for most NUNS ships they kinda can't get there without exiting early and slow legging it across the fault or crashing into it as Megaroad 04 did. So unless NUNS found a way to adapt fold quartz into their drives early on (and that seems unlikely since the super fold booster from LAI that used fold quartz was implied to be a very new technology much later). Did NUNS always have ships sublight it out until they could fold?

[RedWolf]

7 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Well, I'm not sure about the idea of different levels of membership... but Kawamori did indicate in the Otona Anime #9 interview about Macross Frontier that the European Union was the modern governing body most closely resembling the function of the New Unification Government (c.2059).

I say such because the EU isn't either a Federation nor a Confederation. The proposal is that there would be varying levels of integration to the EU. The NUNG may follow such a form of decentralization.

 

This may explain the concept better.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/an-eu-for-full-members-only/amp/

 

[Seto Kaiba]

13 minutes ago, Master Dex said:

This does lead me to a curiosity... those fold faults.. how do they leave the system? Well with the fold quartz it can be done obviously.. and in the show they largely rely on Sigur Valens to project zero-lag folds for them... but for most NUNS ships they kinda can't get there without exiting early and slow legging it across the fault or crashing into it as Megaroad 04 did. So unless NUNS found a way to adapt fold quartz into their drives early on (and that seems unlikely since the super fold booster from LAI that used fold quartz was implied to be a very new technology much later). Did NUNS always have ships sublight it out until they could fold?

This actually came up in Macross Frontier... I believe it was episode 12.

Fold faults are at their most dangerous when you don't know they're there.  Blindly plowing into one is incredibly dangerous, since powering through an unexpected fault or two can leave a ship without enough stored energy to return to realspace like what had allegedly happened to the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global.  A ship that's blessed with good luck might just get knocked back to realspace in an ugly mess the way Megaroad-04 was.

If you know they're there and you know how severe they are you can factor them into the computations for fold navigation, avoiding ones too severe to attempt to cross and banking enough energy to safely traverse the weaker ones that can't be avoided practically or economically.  The catch is that doing so greatly increases the disparity between the subjective and objective passage of time in the ship.  The trip to Gallia IV was a great example of this.  By avoiding some faults and crossing others, the most efficient route to Gallia IV felt like a short commuter flight to the Galaxy Starliner's crew and passengers but was actually over 7 days of real time (a whopping +172.25 hour adjustment to ship time) as a result of the fold faults magnifying the disparity between the pace of time in realspace vs. fold space.

The New UN Spacy's fleet probably planned to just power through the well-charted fold faults surrounding Windermere IV on their way to attack it.  Their ships are at least theoretically capable of interplanetary flight in a reasonable timeframe, but you sacrifice the advantage of surprise doing so.  Folding there might take longer due to the faults, but they'll only know you're coming shortly before you arrive, and surprise is an important advantage when you're planning to drop a planet-killing dimensional bomb on an enemy planet.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just now, RedWolf said:

I say such because the EU isn't either a Federation nor a Confederation. The proposal is that there would be varying levels of integration to the EU. The NUNG may follow such a form of decentralization.

I'm familiar enough with the EU from my day job, I'm just saying that I can't really think of anything said thus far in Macross that'd support the idea of different levels of NUNG membership.  The Windermere IV situation kind of presented it as an all-or-nothing affair.  They didn't really get to pick and choose which NUNG policies they had to follow... they tried to negotiate opting out of a couple parts of the terms and conditions and were rebuffed, which was depicted as part of what convinced King Grammier that there was no diplomatic solution to Windermere IV's economic crisis in the gaiden manga White Knight of the Black Wing.

(In all fairness to the New Unification Government, Grammier was trying to negotiate his way out of having to abide by what was essentially a strategic arms anti-proliferation treaty aimed at controllng the spread of dimensional warheads.  They can hardly be blamed for saying no, even if Grammier didn't want to hear it.)