SV-51 vs VF-0

[azrael]

I think this is one of the saddest nerd fights I've seen in a while.

Maybe now we can get back to the actual topic of the thread...

Also, I'm not going to change my vote as the original question was who would win in a fly-off competition and make it to production, but Now that I've got an SV-51 toy in hand I realize this is WAY cooler than the VF-0.

Thank you.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, if we're gonna keep spouting Master File, I mean, that's canon stuff, right?

No, I'm afraid it isn't... which is why I said as much in the first place. If we're to discuss the merits of the VF-0 and SV-51, we should at least stick to reliable sources...

Also, I'm not going to change my vote as the original question was who would win in a fly-off competition and make it to production, but Now that I've got an SV-51 toy in hand I realize this is WAY cooler than the VF-0.

's all right... I voted for the SV-51 on the grounds that it was a craft designed for combat service, rather than an impressively-capable test plane. Plus I think the multi-axis thrust vectoring and canards give it a decided leg up in maneuverability. 'course, the original topic of the thread does also specify that they're competing ala Project Super Nova, so presumably the effectiveness of their weapons would be a factor.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

I think this is one of the saddest nerd fights I've seen in a while.

Agreed. My sparing partner has now devolved to name calling despite not getting the drift that I've left the debate as he's essentially stammering away with his fingers in his ears about the veracity of sources.

Anyhow, as Azrael said, back to the topic:

which is better? Sv-51, 'cause it's the one that got converted into a thermonuclear powered craft pretty much as-is, and is still in use in 2059 (or whenever Macross the Ride takes place).

[miles316]

Agreed. My sparing partner has now devolved to name calling despite not getting the drift that I've left the debate as he's essentially stammering away with his fingers in his ears about the veracity of sources.

Anyhow, as Azrael said, back to the topic:

which is better? Sv-51, 'cause it's the one that got converted into a thermonuclear powered craft pretty much as-is, and is still in use in 2059 (or whenever Macross the Ride takes place).

So the is the Anti-UN forces still operating and using the Super SV-51 against the UN & affiliated governments/Colonies, or Are thes S/SV-51 new built craft, or from the original batch built during the unification war?

[sketchley]

From what little is known about it, the design was taken by the Unified Forces and produced by them. From what I've read, it was for testing purposes. however, the latest Macross The Ride looks like it fleshes out it's history better.

Also, take care about your terminology:

Anti Unification Alliance (no such thing as the Anti-UN)

SV-52 (No such thing as the Super SV-51)

[sketchley]

Finished the translation of the SV-52. Seriously underwhelmed.

Nevertheless, some new info on it: basically it's an SV-51 that's been converted to thermonuclear engines. The Anti-Unification Alliance did it BEFORE the outbreak of Space War I specifically to do battle with Zentraadi. A small number of airframes survived the destruction of the Earth, and at least one of those surviving airframes is used in racing in the Macross Frontier Fleet in 2058 (or 2059). One of the key nuggets of information is that the SV-51/SV-52 airfame as plenty of extra internal space, allowing it to easily be upgraded with the latest technologies. Such as replacing the thermonuclear engines with the ones from the VF-17, and giving it performance on par with the VF-171!

These revelations make the basic design a bit more impressive, IMHO. It's interesting that the writers mention that compared to the VF-1, the SV-51/52 is "twice as large" and heavier. I wonder how it compares to the variable craft such as the VF-19, VF-25, et al, which are all much larger than the VF-1.

Edited January 25, 2011 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Agreed. My sparing partner has now devolved to name calling despite not getting the drift that I've left the debate as he's essentially stammering away with his fingers in his ears about the veracity of sources.

Eh... correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it you that was plugging his ears and insisting that the show itself is wrong regarding the effectiveness of the VF-0's laser weapons? You were the one trying to make your whole case based on the veracity of sources. Still waitin' for you to source your claim about the VF-0 and SV-51 with anti-laser coatings BTW... had a brief skim over the sheets and didn't see anything to that effect. (Seriously, inquiring minds want to know... the only VFs I've seen anything on anti-beam coatings for are the VF-19, VF-25, and VF-171EX.)

Nevertheless, some new info on it: basically it's an SV-51 that's been converted to thermonuclear engines. The Anti-Unification Alliance did it BEFORE the outbreak of Space War I specifically to do battle with Zentraadi.

's not really new, IIRC... the novelization of Macross Frontier has them using an SV-52 w/ reaction engines in the filming of the "Birdhuman" movie. How they did it in the animation is anyone's guess... in light of what's new in Macross the Ride, they may have actually had one or more SV-52s on hand for the job.

One of the key nuggets of information is that the SV-51/SV-52 airfame as plenty of extra internal space, allowing it to easily be upgraded with the latest technologies. Such as replacing the thermonuclear engines with the ones from the VF-17, and giving it performance on par with the VF-171!

Huh... kinda like the VF-14 then. Guess that cinches it... SV-51/52 wins by "Word of God". Can't say that I'm all that surprised.

I wonder how it compares to the variable craft such as the VF-19, VF-25, et al, which are all much larger than the VF-1.

Presumably the military spec model wouldn't compare that favorably, being a Space War 1-era machine and all... but I would imagine the heavily customized race machine from Macross the Ride would be able to keep pace with the VF-19's being used, at least in terms of maneuverability (dash speed not being super-important in a slalom type racing event).

Edited January 25, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[frothymug]

Do the SV-52's HAVE to be the surviving airframes from SWI? Can't they just rebuild them kit-style like many classic cars are made today?

[Seto Kaiba]

Do the SV-52's HAVE to be the surviving airframes from SWI? Can't they just rebuild them kit-style like many classic cars are made today?

Dunno... I can't exactly see a VF being a low-cost hobby vehicle, but since at least a few examples survived the destruction of Earth's surface in Space War 1 and are still being used, making new ones probably isn't out of the question. After all, someone's gotta be making replacement parts to keep the surviving airframes running.

[frothymug]

Sketchley's translation does talk about the source of the airframes, but it doesn't seem to confirm whether or not this particular pilot's (Magdalena's) is a surviving airframe, or if it's BASED off of a surviving airframe. It says that the SV-52's specs were not quite available. As Seto mentioned, there has to be some kind of market for aftermarket parts for that model. More than likely, it is possible to reconstruct a vintage aircraft this way. Maybe someone really liked the design and had the money to rebuild it.

All of this air racing is very much akin to our air races here on Earth, where the pilots use restored or kit-built vintage aircraft that are highly customized. It's kinda tough to find a P-51 that's in such good shape and is able to perform on such a high level these days.

[anime52k8]

Dunno... I can't exactly see a VF being a low-cost hobby vehicle, but since at least a few examples survived the destruction of Earth's surface in Space War 1 and are still being used, making new ones probably isn't out of the question. After all, someone's gotta be making replacement parts to keep the surviving airframes running.

"Low-Cost" no, but given the proliferation of Variable fighters by the late 2050's and level of manufacturing technology in the Macross universe, I can imagine that building a reproduction SW1 vintage Variable fighter is going to be about as common as building reproduction WWII fighters today (i.e. common for people with considerable disposable income.)

[Nicaragua]

"Low-Cost" no, but given the proliferation of Variable fighters by the late 2050's and level of manufacturing technology in the Macross universe, I can imagine that building a reproduction SW1 vintage Variable fighter is going to be about as common as building reproduction WWII fighters today (i.e. common for people with considerable disposable income.)

This.

When you factor in that a civilian in Macross Frontier has enough cash to buy his own PMC and kit it out with all the latest military toys then the cost of rebuilding an SV-51 seems pretty small in comparison.

[Seto Kaiba]

"Low-Cost" no, but given the proliferation of Variable fighters by the late 2050's and level of manufacturing technology in the Macross universe, I can imagine that building a reproduction SW1 vintage Variable fighter is going to be about as common as building reproduction WWII fighters today (i.e. common for people with considerable disposable income.)

True... and if Macross 7 is anything to go by, there are already quite a few hobbyists and the families of Space War 1 veterans out there with vintage VF-1's that they've somehow kept in good working order. There's also one example in Macross VF-X2, where the head of the Critical Path corporation (Manfred Brando) was somehow able to buy his own VF-17S Nightmare. Thing is, the bit on Dengeki Hobby's website seems to imply that there weren't that many SV-51/52 airframes that survived the war, so it's probably unlikely that their numbers went up by much... maybe a custom job for serious hobbyists or something?

This.

When you factor in that a civilian in Macross Frontier has enough cash to buy his own PMC and kit it out with all the latest military toys then the cost of rebuilding an SV-51 seems pretty small in comparison.

Yeah, but like Manfred Brando, Richard Bilra had ownership of a interplanetary megacorporation fattening up his wallet.

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

The poll is a dead tie right now. It seems like most people are in agreement of the fundamentals, IE the SV-51 has a more versatile airframe and VF-0 has a much larger weapons payload. The question is, which of the two is most important?

For a tactical,ambush/raid style fight the SV-51 might be superior. In an all out battle/itano circus style fight, the VF-0 would probably be superior.

The Super Nova project was focused on quick hit and run missions on politically sensitive targets, they had capital ships to use for all out fire power. This in my mind helps give the SV-51 an edge.

Both machines would probably run out of fuel before ammo, especially the Zero in Angel format. Hmmmmm.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX

[Nicaragua]

Yeah, but like Manfred Brando, Richard Bilra had ownership of a interplanetary megacorporation fattening up his wallet.

Where they get their money from isnt relevant. The point is that within the scope of the Macross universe it seems more than feasible for the ultra rich to finance a reproduction of an SV-51/52.

[sketchley]

Where they get their money from isnt relevant. The point is that within the scope of the Macross universe it seems more than feasible for the ultra rich to finance a reproduction of an SV-51/52.

The only problem with that is that the actual plans were lost with the rest of the surface of the planet during SWI. Of course, that doesn't mean that someone can try to make a copy, just that they'd have to reverse engineer from the surviving fighters.

That said, the nuance of Macross the Ride is that the SV-51/52 is completely lost to history by the time the races start. So, it's going to be a rarity among the rare. From the impression I'm left with, there are more VF-3000 in existence, and that VF was only trial produced for testing purposes!

The situation (lack of awareness of the SV-51/52) most likely changes a year later, when the in-universe movie version of the events of Macross Zero is produced and released. And it's a safe guess that a market for not-quite exact copies of the SV-/52 emerges.

[Reïvaj]

According to sketchley’s Dengenki Hobby 2011.03 Macross the Ride translation at http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2678.msg41329#msg41329, there is some interesting official information that we should consider.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Reïvaj

[SchizophrenicMC]

All this about the VF-0 not being as far on its development timeline as the SV-51, and I have to wonder, were the Anti-Unification forces working on another VF design, simultaneously? For that matter, how much did the -0 and -1 affect each others' development? I mean, obviously, they seem to be very similar, except in size, and were developed at the same time, so I have to wonder, if the -0 had reached the end of its development stage, would it have surpassed the SV-51, as the VF-1 surpassed them both?

It's an interesting question, for me.

[azrael]

All this about the VF-0 not being as far on its development timeline as the SV-51, and I have to wonder, were the Anti-Unification forces working on another VF design, simultaneously? For that matter, how much did the -0 and -1 affect each others' development? I mean, obviously, they seem to be very similar, except in size, and were developed at the same time, so I have to wonder, if the -0 had reached the end of its development stage, would it have surpassed the SV-51, as the VF-1 surpassed them both?

That we'll never know since neither would last beyond the Bird Human Incident. The SV-51 was farther along because the AUA or AUN, if you prefer, designed the SV-51 as a combat fighter from the start. They wanted it to fight now, hence the SV-51 being the first combat VF. The VF-0 was more like a hobby at its beginning than the SV-51. If the SV-51 didn't come along, the VF-0 would have never been deployed in actual combat and remained a test plane.

[sketchley]

According to sketchley’s Dengenki Hobby 2011.03 Macross the Ride Translation at http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2678.msg41329#msg41329, there is some interesting official information that we should consider:

Curious, what part of the bold in the following isn't understood?

The following may not be copied without my written permission. For further information see the Terms of Service.

Please extend the courtesy of proper citation via linking when you quote or paraphrase this translation.

Thank you for the linking, but there's a reason why I'm not posting these translations verbatim in this website...

[Reïvaj]

Curious, what part of the bold in the following isn't understood?

The bold is just to highlight what I thought it was most important about that: the author (or the translator) and the source.

Thank you for the linking, but there's a reason why I'm not posting these translations verbatim in this website...

Sorry, I hadn’t paid attention on that. Just edited.

[sketchley]

The bold is just to highlight what I thought it was most important about that: the author (or the translator) and the source.

Apologies, that should've been: "the bold in the following quote".

Anyhow, I don't mind someone copying the relevant lines, just not the whole thing (one of the major reasons for the end user is that there's the possibility that I'll be revising and improving the translation at a later date. As it is, it hasn't been proof-read very well.. so there will be changes.)

So, feel free to restore the lines that you had underlined in your original post.

That we'll never know since neither would last beyond the Bird Human Incident. The SV-51 was farther along because the AUA or AUN, if you prefer, designed the SV-51 as a combat fighter from the start. They wanted it to fight now, hence the SV-51 being the first combat VF. The VF-0 was more like a hobby at its beginning than the SV-51. If the SV-51 didn't come along, the VF-0 would have never been deployed in actual combat and remained a test plane.

Mostly yes, and a litte no: the SV-51 lived on after the Birdman Incident as the SV-52, and that played a role, a super minor role, in SWI.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Did we ever come to a consensus about what ship would win a competition?

[sketchley]

Did we ever come to a consensus about what ship would win a competition?

Scroll to the top for the results of the poll. The VF-0 is currently winning, but only by a hair.

[anime52k8]

Did we ever come to a consensus about what ship would win a competition?

Well, we've figured out that the VF-0 has more missiles but the SV-51's are better because they can blow up ships. Also the VF-0's laser weapons are weaker except for when they're not; and the SV-51 is more maneuverable except for when the VF-0 is more maneuverable.

I think it's all pretty clear cut actually

[SchizophrenicMC]

Well, we've figured out that the VF-0 has more missiles but the SV-51's are better because they can blow up ships. Also the VF-0's laser weapons are weaker except for when they're not; and the SV-51 is more maneuverable except for when the VF-0 is more maneuverable.

I think it's all pretty clear cut actually

In other news,

WELCOME TO PLOT ENGINEERING 101!

[sketchley]

Well, we've figured out that the VF-0 has more missiles but the SV-51's are better because they can blow up ships. Also the VF-0's laser weapons are weaker except for when they're not; and the SV-51 is more maneuverable except for when the VF-0 is more maneuverable.

I think it's all pretty clear cut actually

There's a bit more that you missed:

The SV-51 can be converted to a thermonuclear reaction engine type, the VF-0 has yet to be indicated as having the same ability.

The SV-51 has surplus interior space inside the fuselage, making upgrades and the addition of new technology that much easier. The VF-0 hasn't been indicated as having the same surplus interior space (FAST packs hint that any upgrades need to be attached on the outside - much more difficult).

Oh, and the SV-51, converted to the thermonuclear reaction engine equipped SV-52, is still flying 50 years after. The VF-0 has yet to be indicated as having the same lifespan.

[David Hingtgen]

Has anyone actually mentioned that the Sv-51 *looks* cooler? That's always worth big points, like YF-22 vs YF-23.

[SchizophrenicMC]

There's a bit more that you missed:

The SV-51 can be converted to a thermonuclear reaction engine type, the VF-0 has yet to be indicated as having the same ability.

The SV-51 has surplus interior space inside the fuselage, making upgrades and the addition of new technology that much easier. The VF-0 hasn't been indicated as having the same surplus interior space (FAST packs hint that any upgrades need to be attached on the outside - much more difficult).

Oh, and the SV-51, converted to the thermonuclear reaction engine equipped SV-52, is still flying 50 years after. The VF-0 has yet to be indicated as having the same lifespan.

Your use of canon frustrates me because my argument becomes harder to make, and I keep on wanting the 25th anniversary Zero video to be canon. (Implied use of the VF-0, 50 years later, and what appear to be Reaction Turbine plumes, as opposed to carbon-fueled exhaust)

All that said, the VF-0 was never designed for combat, and to see it actually have reached it is fairly impressive, not to mention its design at least influenced the VF-1, which was the basis of design for many later models, including the VF-25, at least in Fighter mode.

I mean, there's no proof the SV-52s are actually SV-51s, and anyone can rebuild a craft if they reverse engineer it. I could conceivably build my own F-14, given money and facilities, and slap a couple F119s on it, call it an F-17, or whatever designation hasn't been used yet. It would look like an F-14 and act like some new plane, and, well, it'd be a new plane, BASED on the design of the F-14, and not an actual F-14. (Like the VF-1, based on the VF-0, potentially?)

The VF-0 is still larger than most VFs to 2059, hinting that newer parts could indeed be swapped into its large airframe (spaceframe?), with some jury-rigging, if necessary. At least, it isn't smaller than a better fighter, so I don't see size issues being a great issue when upgrading. (The switch from the TF30 to the F101 in the Tomcat comes to my mind)

Just because a VF uses FAST packs, doesn't make it impossible to upgrade, internally. As far as I can think of, every VF in the animated productions has a FAST pack, and, we still see several variants and upgrades on most of them. I think the use of FAST packs in the VF-0 alludes more to its hastily-converted nature. And let's be honest, the VF-0's fast pack consisted of a couple missile pods and conformal tanks, not dissimilar to the F-16. It seems easier, to me, to bolt gas tanks to the outside, and add a missile pod to a hard point. (Unless you mean the Angel configuration, which, well, was obviously an on-the-spot jury rig)

Has anyone actually mentioned that the Sv-51 *looks* cooler? That's always worth big points, like YF-22 vs YF-23.

By that logic, the VF-0 should win.

[sketchley]

Your use of canon frustrates me because my argument becomes harder to make,

Why should it frustrate you, as "has yet to be indicated" doesn't mean either a direct yes or no. I'd wait a few more months to see if a VF-0 makes an appearance in "Macross the Ride" before finalizing any opinions (that said, the SV-51 would still have a longer length of service )

I mean, there's no proof the SV-52s are actually SV-51s,

Except for the 12 SV-51α that "Macross the Ride" states were converted into SV-52.

and anyone can rebuild a craft if they reverse engineer it.

That's debatable. I agree if the result is something similar, but an exact copy...

The VF-0 is still larger than most VFs to 2059, hinting that newer parts could indeed be swapped into its large airframe (spaceframe?),

Possibly, but of all the translations I've done, only the SV-51/52 and VF-14 are indicated as having surplus or excess interior space. I guess another way to look at it is that all airframes have excess interior space, but only the aforementioned two have a noteworthy amount, or an amount that plays a significant role in the deployment, operation and fate of the airframe.

As engines are noted, it should be kept in mind that any old plane cannot take any old engine. A lot of the time, the airframe has to be strengthened to handle the increased output, or else the engines have to be limited in some way. Therefore, it's all the more interesting that airframe strengthening hasn't been mentioned in the SV-52 that was converted to the VF-17's engines. Thereby implying that the airframe has significant durability. One that is implied to be much greater than the stock VF-0! [Cautionary note: in different parts of the article it's been indicated that the SV-52 has undergone modification to become the racer in the Vanquish Races. So, I highly doubt that the airframe hasn't been strengthened in some way.]

As far as I can think of, every VF in the animated productions has a FAST pack,

The VF-4, VF-14, and VF-27 don't.

Edited January 29, 2011 by sketchley

[Talos]

That's debatable. I agree if the result is something similar, but an exact copy...

I just wanted to point out a couple things. First, with this one, reverse engineering can make virtually identical copies.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/TU-4-MONIN0.jpg

During WWII, several B-29 Superfortress bombers were forced to land in the Soviet Union after bombing Japan. They were interred and the USSR reverse engineered them to make the Tu-4 (NATO codename: Bull), their first nuclear bomber. It was such an exact duplicate that there's a story that they copied the builder's plate, some of the Boeing signage, and some battle damage repairs that one of the planes had. Besides Soviet engines and cannons, the biggest difference was the conversion to metric, which caused a ton or two of additional weight.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Me262ila2006.JPG

Not sure of the exact build date of this Me 262, but it was either in the late 90s or early 2000s, as part of the new-build Me 262 replica project. Besides engines and things like radios, it is virtually identical to the WWII jet fighter.

The reason I bring these up is they show how exact you can duplicate something with reverse-engineering. The Tu-4 was constructed without access to the original blueprints or build info, while the 262 was. Considering access to more advanced production facilities, there's no reason they couldn't do that to the SV-52 and build new ones.

The VF-4, VF-14, and VF-27 don't.

Small quibble, but the Macross II-timeline version of the VF-4, the VF-4 Siren, does in fact mount FAST packs. (It's also seen carrying a gunpod, unlike the main timeline.)

http://anime.geocities.jp/emiri_0624/CD_171935F8-012.png

You're completely right about engine installations. Depending on how much thrust the plane was designed to take, you could really need a good deal of redesign or strengthening to do that successfully. The installation of the Spey turbofans into the UK version of the F-4 Phantom spring to mind.

[miles316]

Why should it frustrate you, as "has yet to be indicated" doesn't mean either a direct yes or no. I'd wait a few more months to see if a VF-0 makes an appearance in "Macross the Ride" before finalizing any opinions (that said, the SV-51 would still have a longer length of service )

Except for the 12 SV-51α that "Macross the Ride" states were converted into SV-52.

That's debatable. I agree if the result is something similar, but an exact copy...

Possibly, but of all the translations I've done, only the SV-51/52 and VF-14 are indicated as having surplus or excess interior space. I guess another way to look at it is that all airframes have excess interior space, but only the aforementioned two have a noteworthy amount, or an amount that plays a significant role in the deployment, operation and fate of the airframe.

As engines are noted, it should be kept in mind that any old plane cannot take any old engine. A lot of the time, the airframe has to be strengthened to handle the increased output, or else the engines have to be limited in some way. Therefore, it's all the more interesting that airframe strengthening hasn't been mentioned in the SV-52 that was converted to the VF-17's engines. Thereby implying that the airframe has significant durability. One that is implied to be much greater than the stock VF-0! [Cautionary note: in different parts of the article it's been indicated that the SV-52 has undergone modification to become the racer in the Vanquish Races. So, I highly doubt that the airframe hasn't been strengthened in some way.]

The VF-4, VF-14, and VF-27 don't.

In M-Zero the mechanic told Roy that they were wanting to use the new Reaction engines but they were not ready and had to use conventional engines in the VF-0 so I would think the VF-0 had the necessary strengthened engine mounts. I would think the Anti-Unification forces would have foresaw the eventual adoption of Compact reaction engines, and planed for their integration in the SV-51 to match the future UN VF.

[sketchley]

I just wanted to point out a couple things. First, with this one, reverse engineering can make virtually identical copies.

I'm not disagreeing completely that that isn't possible. Just that it isn't possible in all circumstances. I believe the original poster mentioned technological limitations. I was also thinking time, material and personnel capability limitations.

In the case of the SV-52, the most likely limitation is a lack of a complete, original airframe. So, it's not any of the aforementioned limitations, but a new one: lack of a complete specimen to copy.

Small quibble, but the Macross II-timeline version of the VF-4, the VF-4 Siren, does in fact mount FAST packs. (It's also seen carrying a gunpod, unlike the main timeline.)

I didn't feel that it was worth mentioning as we're talking about the Studio Nue timeline here...

[sketchley]

In M-Zero the mechanic told Roy that they were wanting to use the new Reaction engines but they were not ready and had to use conventional engines in the VF-0 so I would think the VF-0 had the necessary strengthened engine mounts.

You're forgetting that the VF-X and VF-X-1 were already ready, and because the thermonuclear reaction turbine engines weren't ready, they developed the VF-0 based around over-tuned conventional turbofam jet engines as a platform to test the other new OTec technologies being developed at the time. In other words: once the thermonuclear reaction engines were ready, they wouldn't need the VF-0 any longer, as they already have a working VF-1 design to put the engines into.

It's more than likely that the VF-0 has the airframe strength to install thermonuclear engines. But that's not the point I'm making. The point is that the SV-52 has had the VF-17's engines installed. The 23,000 kg of the FF-2001 is significantly less than the 55,000 kg of the FF-2100X or 59,500 kg of the FF-2100X-Kai.

I would think the Anti-Unification forces would have foresaw the eventual adoption of Compact reaction engines, and planed for their integration in the SV-51 to match the future UN VF.

Keeping in mind that the SV-51 wasn't designed to match any VFs, but was created to fight the Zentraadi, then we're agreed - as that's what the text on the SV-51/52 pretty much states without directly saying it. Though, given the size of the SV-51, I don't think they were waiting for engines as compact as the ones that the VF-1 needs...

Edited January 29, 2011 by sketchley

[Talos]

I'm not disagreeing completely that that isn't possible. Just that it isn't possible in all circumstances. I believe the original poster mentioned technological limitations. I was also thinking time, material and personnel capability limitations.

In the case of the SV-52, the most likely limitation is a lack of a complete, original airframe. So, it's not any of the aforementioned limitations, but a new one: lack of a complete specimen to copy.

Yep, you are right. Lack of a complete airframe would be a problem, unless you had access to construction blueprints. Without either, you are just guessing.

I didn't feel that it was worth mentioning as we're talking about the Studio Nue timeline here...

Since you were talking absolutes, with no reference to timeline, I felt that small caveat was in order.

All this talk about VF-0s and SV-51s converted for later use reminds me of a drawing I did a few years ago. It was basically a "What if the VF-1 was designed as a real successor to the VF-0", so it was basically a VF-0 with redesigned nozzles, cockpit, head, nose, and a few other places. Something along the SV-52's design idea, but I had it labeled VF-1.