SV-51 vs VF-0

[anime52k8]

Oh, another thing for the Zero - it can have Ghosts on its back, the so-called Angel configuration. Made me wonder if it could jetison the Ghost as a remote weapon. Sorta like funnels from Gundam, except, you know, not stupid.

I can't imagine a way that would possibly be less stupid than funnels.

[Product9]

The only way it would be stupid is if it somehow docked with the fighter again in mid-air. Aside from that, seems plausible. Ghost is already a stand-alone weapons platform. Strapping it to the Zero doesn't change that. And we know they can be jettisoned.

Also, looks like my vote was the tie-breaker.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Product9

[sketchley]

So, back OT (assuming I'm in the right thread here...): doesn't the VF-0 have the ability to use ECA in fighter mode due to surplus power from the turbofans? Does the -51 have this ability?

Nope. Only the VF-27 can. Also, the Energy Conversion Armour of the VF-0 and Sv-51 should probably be considered a "generation 0.5" type. Sure, it's the same as the "generation 1.0" from the Zentraadi mobile weapons (aka mecha) that was used in the VF-1, et al, but given how little electrical power a conventional turbofan engine can provide, it's not going to be near as powerful.

Oh, another thing for the Zero - it can have Ghosts on its back, the so-called Angel configuration. Made me wonder if it could jetison the Ghost as a remote weapon. Sorta like funnels from Gundam, except, you know, not stupid.

Nope. The Ghost-as-supplemental-booster was only a 1-off used on the two craft seen in M0 because dorsal FAST packs weren't made/created/delivered/plot device on time for the final battle. They were basically stripped of their basically stripped down to fuselage, engines, fuel and missiles only.

That said, there's nothing indicating that further research into using them as a remote weapon didn't happen. However, VFMF:VF-19 does provide two weapons that act like those funnel things you mention.

[azrael]

So, back OT (assuming I'm in the right thread here...): doesn't the VF-0 have the ability to use ECA in fighter mode due to surplus power from the turbofans? Does the -51 have this ability?

Just to add what sketchley noted, the VF-0A can used ECA in fighter mode because it cheats. A capacitor was installed in the A-variant to allow ECA to run in fighter mode for a very limited time. The design of transferring the surplus power is unique to the VF-0's powerplant design structure. No later VF replicates this design (probably as sketchley noted, conventional turbofans don't generate THAT much energy).

...

So, shouldn't the SV-51's gunpod's name be GSh-551? That would make a lot more sense.

...

I won't read too much into it. The headache will only get bigger....

[Product9]

I dunno, man, a turbofan can produce some pretty substantial electrical power when connected to a generator. They have been considering using the F-35B setup to power a laser instead of the liftfan via the clutch and shaft design because of the substantial torque. The -35's liftfan generates 18000 lbs of thrust, to put that in perspective.

The VF-0 has two turbofans that are presumably more powerful than the P&W F135. But since we have no idea how much W ECA takes I suppose the point I'm trying to make is moot.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I can't imagine a way that would possibly be less stupid than funnels.

Because it's not controlled by (Cyber) Newtypes like Brera

Product, while the F135 can produce 18,000 pounds of thrust, that doesn't equate to shaft horsepower. The thrust is generated, mostly, as an effect of expanding gas that pushes the plane forward, versus creating a lot of power by spinning a shaft, that drives a fan that pushes the plane through air, like a turboprop engine would. And, so, to gauge the amount of power you could actually glean from the turbine, you would have to attach a meter to the shaft and determine Shaft Horsepower. From there, you can figure out how much you can bog down the turbine with a generator, before it ceases to function in powering the craft.

While generators are in place on jet turbines, powering the avionics, they can't produce substantial amounts of power, while still remaining capable of desired performance. That's the issue that they must have run into with all VF engines until the '27. (And, even then, only because it has 4 large turbines, connected to generator apparatuses)

Oh, and more like the tie-maker.

[Product9]

Nah, dawg, you misunderstand. The -135 engine produces closer to 40 grand in thrust, the liftfan alone does 18. Said liftfan is driven solely by the shaft, and only moves air... no expansion or combustion. I don't remember the exact figures in horsepower, but I'm pretty sure those figures are publically available.

Anyway, there's a thread on the F-35's laser weapon on F-16.net that I can grab later when I'm on a PC. It's some crackpot fantasy like the electro gravetics on the B-2. Pretty sure I first read about the laser weapon in Code One.

Also, I broke the tie. Someone else voted for the -51 sometime after I voted for the Zero.

EDIT: F-35's chargin its lazers

Edited January 22, 2011 by Product9

[David Hingtgen]

Slightly OT again, but a beavertail/tailcone/stinger is fairly "unimportant" for actually flying, its shape/presence will mainly just affect drag. F-14's spent years flying with parts of theirs hacked off. For many valks, it merely lays on top of the arms--most of the aft fuselage is still made up of the arms. And even if the arms too were lost, it'd be ok. Look at the P-38--nothing between the booms for the most part, just empty space.

[Product9]

Ahh, Mr. Hingtgen, are you referring to the talk earlier of using stabilizers as shields? I wonder how the -51 flies without vertical stabilizers...

Also somewhat OT, but I did some brief research on the F-135 shaft driven liftfan, and most sources put the shaft horsepower at between 28,000 and 29,000 HP. Of course, this takes a lot of power from the main engine, but in this mode it can still deliver between 18,000 and 20,000 pounds force of thrust (depending on source).

[valkyriechild]

Didn't Nora's SV-51 lost one of it's arm in episode 2? But still able to kick shin in the butt and avoid Roy's barrage and escaped.

Don't know if that's valid enough as a reason, but SV-51 agility seems fine there.

[Product9]

I... don't recall it ever losing an arm. Only limitation I remember is it having only 11 rounds left in the gpod.

[frothymug]

When Shin got into the wounded VF-0 in episode 2, he spammed his gunpod fire into the air towards Nora's SV-51. He managed to hit her and it blew her battroid's arm off. Then she proceeded to give the young fledgling a little schooling in variable-fighter close-quarters-combat before Roy came in to scare her off.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The SV-51 and the VF-0 are evenly matched in terms of specs. The SV-51 may be better than the VF-0, but not by enough to justify it over the VF-0. Coupled with the VF-0's cost efficiency and "conventional" layout it would seem that the VF-0 is the winner.

*NOTE: as with any weapons system the skill of the operator will play a big role in how the machine performs. Comparing the two from the anime is biased, as the main pilots were of desperate skill levels.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Ahh, Mr. Hingtgen, are you referring to the talk earlier of using stabilizers as shields? I wonder how the -51 flies without vertical stabilizers...

Also somewhat OT, but I did some brief research on the F-135 shaft driven liftfan, and most sources put the shaft horsepower at between 28,000 and 29,000 HP. Of course, this takes a lot of power from the main engine, but in this mode it can still deliver between 18,000 and 20,000 pounds force of thrust (depending on source).

Well, assuming it has good fly-by-wire, the thruster paddles should be able to adjust fast enough to compensate.

Still, Thrust does not equal Shaft Horsepower. The maximum power the F-135 can generate on its turboshaft is 35,000 SHP. That's at full throttle. Even then, the majority of the plane's energy is spent in the turboshaft, to keep it airborne, while the rest of the turbine switches to a very fuel-inefficient turbojet to make up the other 45% of its thrust lift. So, when the engine is at maximum performance, the aircraft is at minimum performance because of how much energy the added shaft is consuming.

In essence, the F-135's shaft produces 2.6MW of energy. After loss of that energy to friction and various inefficiencies in the generators and various power conversions to change mechanical energy to electricity to whatever it is that powers ECA (or light for a laser), you're running on far less than 2.6MW. You'd be lucky to pull a number of kilowatts out. And, then, you're at the lowest possible performance the plane can fly on. Not an ideal situation for a combat aircraft. Hence, the reason ECA is only used in Battroid mode, because the engines aren't producing thrust, and can be used as pure turboshafts to power the Battroid.

[David Hingtgen]

I thought the F-35's engine was still acting as a turbofan, even with lift-fan engaged. But it's been literally years since I took a close look at the system.

[Product9]

When Shin got into the wounded VF-0 in episode 2, he spammed his gunpod fire into the air towards Nora's SV-51. He managed to hit her and it blew her battroid's arm off. Then she proceeded to give the young fledgling a little schooling in variable-fighter close-quarters-combat before Roy came in to scare her off.

Oh, right right. Now I remember. Sorry, I was thinkin about the battle in episode 3. (Ahh episode 3... I can't wait for Half-Life 2 Episode 3...).

Still, Thrust does not equal Shaft Horsepower. The maximum power the F-135 can generate on its turboshaft is 35,000 SHP. That's at full throttle. Even then, the majority of the plane's energy is spent in the turboshaft, to keep it airborne, while the rest of the turbine switches to a very fuel-inefficient turbojet to make up the other 45% of its thrust lift. So, when the engine is at maximum performance, the aircraft is at minimum performance because of how much energy the added shaft is consuming.

Wait, what? Why would it suddenly become a turbojet? The shaft-driven lift-fan is an entirely separate component from the F-135 engine. The engine is still a low-bypass turbofan, no matter what mode it's operating in. The fan stage is still there, and the bypass air is still bypassing the compressor and turbine stages.

I think you have a bit of the nomenclature wrong, by the way. The turbine is but one stage of the engine (the part that extracts energy from the combusted fuel-air mixture and converts it to mechanical energy to drive the rest of the engine), and both turbofans and turbojets have them.

In essence, the F-135's shaft produces 2.6MW of energy. After loss of that energy to friction and various inefficiencies in the generators and various power conversions to change mechanical energy to electricity to whatever it is that powers ECA (or light for a laser), you're running on far less than 2.6MW. You'd be lucky to pull a number of kilowatts out. And, then, you're at the lowest possible performance the plane can fly on. Not an ideal situation for a combat aircraft. Hence, the reason ECA is only used in Battroid mode, because the engines aren't producing thrust, and can be used as pure turboshafts to power the Battroid.

Okay, fair enough. It's not an efficient method of powering secondary systems while still trying to operate as a high-performance fighter engine.

A thought occurred to me though - the VF-0 has laser weapons. Laser weapons that are far more powerful than the one they intend to mount on the F-35. So, logically, we can assume that ECA takes a fair amount more power to operate than a high power laser. Unless OT lasers are different or something...

[SchizophrenicMC]

Wait, what? Why would it suddenly become a turbojet? The shaft-driven lift-fan is an entirely separate component from the F-135 engine. The engine is still a low-bypass turbofan, no matter what mode it's operating in. The fan stage is still there, and the bypass air is still bypassing the compressor and turbine stages.

I think you have a bit of the nomenclature wrong, by the way. The turbine is but one stage of the engine (the part that extracts energy from the combusted fuel-air mixture and converts it to mechanical energy to drive the rest of the engine), and both turbofans and turbojets have them.

Okay, fair enough. It's not an efficient method of powering secondary systems while still trying to operate as a high-performance fighter engine.

A thought occurred to me though - the VF-0 has laser weapons. Laser weapons that are far more powerful than the one they intend to mount on the F-35. So, logically, we can assume that ECA takes a fair amount more power to operate than a high power laser. Unless OT lasers are different or something...

I'm going off of what I read, and I misread. My apologies. I mistook the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem brief for the actual design of the turbine. (According to what I read about the LiftSystem design brief, bypass is directed through the engine, to increase lift by a certain percent, thus turning the engine into a turbojet)

Turbines are devices that convert energy to a usable form, in a rotary manner. That can be a Hydroelectric turbine that converts mechanical energy from water into electrical energy, or a turbocharger to increase aspiration rate in internal combustion engines, or a thrust turbine on a jet aircraft.

Hence the whole "Turbo-" thing. Turbofans are Turbine-driven fans. Turboshafts are Turbine-driven power shafts. My nomenclature is sound, at least from a mechanical standpoint.

The VF-0 is never shown using its lasers outside of Battroid mode, if I remember right, which cycles back into the whole Battroid-only thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a model of the -0 equipped with a capacitor bank that allows it to operate its high-energy equipment for short periods, regardless of state?

[Product9]

Makes me wonder if on the F-35B bypass air is used for the roll posts. According to Wikipedia only 9% of it it used for thrust in a hover.

It sounded wrong because nothing the turbine does makes the engine a turbofan or a turbojet (though I'm pretty sure in the former the turbine stage is smaller to facilitate better fuel economy). I see you got your head screwed on tight, though, so ill just shut up about the semantics

Well, the only time we saw the laser discharge outside of battroid was in ep 3 when Shin (or was it Edgar?) tried to snipe Nora outta the cockpit while they were dueling in GERWALK mode. At least that's the only time I remember. We see later VFs do it all the time in fighter, though.

[sketchley]

A thought occurred to me though - the VF-0 has laser weapons. Laser weapons that are far more powerful than the one they intend to mount on the F-35. So, logically, we can assume that ECA takes a fair amount more power to operate than a high power laser. Unless OT lasers are different or something...

The main reason why the VF-0 (VF-1...) has a laser gun in the head is because of space constraints. A machinegun could be mounted, but there's little to no room for the bullets.

Anyhow, if memory serves, VFMF:VF-1 (forget which one), states something along the lines that the laser gun is powered by a capacitor, and it can be fired continuously for 15 seconds. If the engines are running near maximum output, but not being used for flight, the weapon can fire for 20 seconds.

[Product9]

Didn't the VF-1's lasers overheat or somethin after being used continuously for a while? Or was that the capacitor running dry? Been a while since I seen the first Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

Anyhow, if memory serves, VFMF:VF-1 (forget which one), states something along the lines that the laser gun is powered by a capacitor, and it can be fired continuously for 15 seconds. If the engines are running near maximum output, but not being used for flight, the weapon can fire for 20 seconds.

... and it's inexplicable stuff like that which makes me heartily glad that what's in Master File isn't part of the official setting. The wording here is a bit unclear, did you mean the VF-0 or VF-1 has the capacitor... because it would make no sense in the VF-1's case.

Didn't the VF-1's lasers overheat or somethin after being used continuously for a while? Or was that the capacitor running dry? Been a while since I seen the first Macross.

Yes, the dialogue in "Blind Game" indicates that Max's laser is about to overheat while being used as a cutting tool. There's no mention of capacitors or the lasers running low on (or out of) power. Having such an aggressively short operation time would make the lasers next to useless as a cutting tool if it required long-term operation (and slicing a battroid-sized hole into a hatch certainly does). The VF-0 could easily justify having such a capacitor, but for a VF-1 that's sitting on two 650MW reactors, they've got more than enough juice to do away with such a thing.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Makes me wonder if on the F-35B bypass air is used for the roll posts. According to Wikipedia only 9% of it it used for thrust in a hover.

It sounded wrong because nothing the turbine does makes the engine a turbofan or a turbojet (though I'm pretty sure in the former the turbine stage is smaller to facilitate better fuel economy). I see you got your head screwed on tight, though, so ill just shut up about the semantics

Well, the only time we saw the laser discharge outside of battroid was in ep 3 when Shin (or was it Edgar?) tried to snipe Nora outta the cockpit while they were dueling in GERWALK mode. At least that's the only time I remember. We see later VFs do it all the time in fighter, though.

See, that's what I was wondering. Makes sense, given the position of the roll posts, compared to the position of the turbine.

Turbofans and Turbojets differ in that fans are quieter and more fuel efficient, but turbojets are more capable of high speed, because thrust isn't derived from low-speed bypass, but rather, high-speed core air. Fuel efficiency in turbofans come from the mass of slow-moving air around the engine being able to produce more thrust as it expands than a smaller mass of fast-moving air inside the engine.

And, see, I'm fairly certain the lasers operate off of capacitors. See below.

The main reason why the VF-0 (VF-1...) has a laser gun in the head is because of space constraints. A machinegun could be mounted, but there's little to no room for the bullets.

Anyhow, if memory serves, VFMF:VF-1 (forget which one), states something along the lines that the laser gun is powered by a capacitor, and it can be fired continuously for 15 seconds. If the engines are running near maximum output, but not being used for flight, the weapon can fire for 20 seconds.

... and it's inexplicable stuff like that which makes me heartily glad that what's in Master File isn't part of the official setting. The wording here is a bit unclear, did you mean the VF-0 or VF-1 has the capacitor... because it would make no sense in the VF-1's case.

Yes, the dialogue in "Blind Game" indicates that Max's laser is about to overheat while being used as a cutting tool. There's no mention of capacitors or the lasers running low on (or out of) power. Having such an aggressively short operation time would make the lasers next to useless as a cutting tool if it required long-term operation (and slicing a battroid-sized hole into a hatch certainly does). The VF-0 could easily justify having such a capacitor, but for a VF-1 that's sitting on two 650MW reactors, they've got more than enough juice to do away with such a thing.

While the turbines can produce 1300 MW total yield in power, that's at full power, and most of that energy is going to be lost to heat, anyway. Take away from what energy you retain, all of the servomotors and actuators to operate the battroid, and you're left with quite a bit less than that much energy. Plus, the amount of power you'd need in a laser to operate even close to what we see in the VF-1 and -0, even, surpasses what's left. Thus, capacitors.

Ah, the capacitor. The tool of all sci-fi to explain greater-than-capable power consumption and dramatic buildup.

[sketchley]

... and it's inexplicable stuff like that which makes me heartily glad that what's in Master File isn't part of the official setting. The wording here is a bit unclear, did you mean the VF-0 or VF-1 has the capacitor... because it would make no sense in the VF-1's case.

Let's avoid any debates about specific publications being part of the "official setting" or not for threads dedicated to those specific publications, thank you.

It's text about the VF-1. And it makes perfect sense. Consider this: how is a pilot going to move stealthily in battroid with the engines constantly at maximum output to keep a ready supply of power for the laser gun if there is no capacitor?

Yes, the dialogue in "Blind Game" indicates that Max's laser is about to overheat while being used as a cutting tool. There's no mention of capacitors or the lasers running low on (or out of) power.

Keep in mind that EVERYTHING that's gone before was revised somewhat at the time of Macross Frontier's debut. (One could even say that the revisions had already happened with Macross Zero. Heck, DYRL.)

Having such an aggressively short operation time would make the lasers next to useless as a cutting tool if it required long-term operation (and slicing a battroid-sized hole into a hatch certainly does).

... and is the laser designed to be a cutting tool? If memory serves, it's expressly designed as an anti-aircraft weapon, and fires at a multi-thousand pulse rate per minute. Therefore, even with a capacitor and firing controlled bursts, it's more than able to fulfill the role it was originally designed for with a 15 to 20 second continuous fire charge.

but for a VF-1 that's sitting on two 650MW reactors, they've got more than enough juice to do away with such a thing.

Which doesn't mean anything. As we don't know how much power is required to motivate all the actuators. We don't know what the power requirements are of the avionics and life support. We don't know how energy much the Energy Conversion Armour needs, either. Sure, 650 MW is more than enough power, IF there are no other systems concurrently in use. But that's a thought-experiment, and not corresponding to the (revision of the revised) reality that we've been presented with.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's text about the VF-1. And it makes perfect sense. Consider this: how is a pilot going to move stealthily in battroid with the engines constantly at maximum output to keep a ready supply of power for the laser gun if there is no capacitor?

Do I even need to point out how ridiculous the idea of doing ANYTHING stealthily in a giant robot is? Even in Zentradi terms, the VF-1 Valkyrie is BIG. Mind you, Master File isn't even remotely consistent on this note... VFMF: VF-19 says the VF-19's head-mounted weapons are powered directly by its engines. It'd be understandable in the VF-0's case, since that mecha has to rely on ordinary turbofans for power, but the idea that the VF-1's operating power requirements are SO tight it can't spare 0.4% of its net power output to charge its laser weaponry borders on the absurd. I could understand the capacitor if it was used to power the gun in emergencies and was being constantly recharged by the engines during normal operation, but for it to be the only source of power for the gun is just nuts... even where the VF-0 is concerned. If they've got enough juice kicking around to run the plane's engines at 200% for any period of time at a moment's notice, they can spare the 5MW necessary to fire those lasers at full power directly during operation.

It also, as I've said, doesn't support what we see in the show regarding sustained firing of the lasers as an improvised cutting tool.

If this is the case, it doesn't augur well for the VF-4 either... its engines aren't much better than the VF-1's in terms of output, and its beam weapons are its main armament. If asking for 0.4% of the overall reactor output is a step too far, I'd hate to be caught flying a plane where that's my main close-range defensive option if I've got at most 15 seconds of use in them.

... and is the laser designed to be a cutting tool? If memory serves, it's expressly designed as an anti-aircraft weapon, and fires at a multi-thousand pulse rate per minute. Therefore, even with a capacitor and firing controlled bursts, it's more than able to fulfill the role it was originally designed for with a 15 to 20 second continuous fire charge.

But we see it being used as a cutting tool on multiple occasions in the original series alone, and that would seem to indicate that at least someone in the design team was considering the possibility of using it for other purposes. Again, we never hear any mention of the gun running out of ammo... only of it overheating. As noted above, even Master File gives us a clear-cut example of head-mounted beam weaponry being powered directly by the mecha's reaction engines.

Insofar as whether the VF-0's built-in laser weaponry would give it a significant edge over the SV-51... I doubt it. Questions of how it's powered aside, the VF-0's lasers don't appear to have the necessary "oomph" to do damage to ECA-equipped mecha. IIRC, they had little in the way of success against Octos units, and the bulk of those were powering their ECA and other systems with a diesel-turbine engine.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

Do I even need to point out how ridiculous the idea of doing ANYTHING stealthily in a giant robot is?

Contemplate standing behind a cliff with the engines turned off. Then you might get my drift. Ambush, man. Ambush.

Mind you, Master File isn't even remotely consistent on this note... VFMF: VF-19

You say inconsistent, then you talk about a completely different vehicle. That's not inconsistency at all.

Now, if the two VF-1 books are inconsistent, then we've got a problem.

It'd be understandable in the VF-0's case, since that mecha has to rely on ordinary turbofans for power, but the idea that the VF-1's operating power requirements are SO tight it can't spare 0.4% of its net power output to charge its laser weaponry borders on the absurd.

You've lost me. I think you're adding stuff that I wasn't saying to your interpretation of what I said.

I could understand the capacitor if it was used to power the gun in emergencies and was being constantly recharged by the engines during normal operation,

What I've been saying all along.

but for it to be the only source of power for the gun is just nuts...

And how is this not real-world realistic? Take the flash in your camera. It runs off the batteries, right? WRONG. It runs off of a capacitor. The capacitor runs off of the batteries.

Same for the head laser in the VF-0 and VF-1. The difference with the camera is that, by all appearances, the capacitor is always charging, even when the capacitor is discharging.

If they've got enough juice kicking around to run the plane's engines at 200% for any period of time at a moment's notice, they can spare the 5MW necessary to fire those lasers at full power directly during operation.

If what you say is so, then where are the big power cables running directly from the engines to the laser guns? Heck, why aren't the engines on the head as dedicated power supplies? Your logic is elusive to all but you...

It also, as I've said, doesn't support what we see in the show regarding sustained firing of the lasers as an improvised cutting tool.

Why do you bring up the show? The show is dictated by the power of plot. What the writers and animators decree. Of course it's going to be inconsistent.

If this is the case, it doesn't augur well for the VF-4 either...

Do we know the size of the VF-4's capacitors? Are the VF-4's engines more efficient at generating electrical power? WE DON'T KNOW. So stop bringing in irrelevant comparisons.

(...) and that would seem to indicate that at least someone in the design team was considering the possibility of using it for other purposes.

You don't watch shows like "MacGyver" or "Mythbusters" much, do you? End-users do use things in ways that the designers never intended, you know.

History is another good source, with the ultimate in unintended uses: the antitank sock. I'm fairly certain that the designer of the sock never saw that one coming.

the VF-0's lasers don't appear to have the necessary "oomph" to do damage to ECA-equipped mecha. IIRC, they had little in the way of success against Octos units

Fokker destroys at least one with a well-placed shot from the head-laser. Not sure where your getting your ideas from, as the weapons of the VF-0/1 were being deliberately designed to overcome Zentraadi Battlepods equipped with Energy Conversion Armour.

[Seto Kaiba]

You've lost me. I think you're adding stuff that I wasn't saying to your interpretation of what I said.

'k... what I'm saying here is that, capacitor or no capacitor, the output of the VF-1's power plant should be more than sufficient to run the lasers indefinitely until the system starts to overheat, which seems to be the case in Super Dimension Fortress Macross. The idea that those lasers can only operate for 20 seconds even when the fighter isn't devoting most of the reactor's output to flight is kind of inane... especially when there's obviously at fair bit of surplus output kicking around. It's particularly incongruous in the context of what the VFMF: VF-19 book shows about later applications of the same damn technology used in the same place.

If what you say is so, then where are the big power cables running directly from the engines to the laser guns? Heck, why aren't the engines on the head as dedicated power supplies? Your logic is elusive to all but you...

Reductio ad absurdum? Damn man, I'm actually disappointed... you're the LAST person I'd expect a tactic like that from. Just throwing this out there, but I'd hazard a guess that the big power cables feeding the laser system are probably in the same place as the other big power and data cables feeding the other hardware in the head.

Why do you bring up the show? The show is dictated by the power of plot. What the writers and animators decree. Of course it's going to be inconsistent.

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but these books are meant to be supplements to the animation, not vice versa.

Fokker destroys at least one with a well-placed shot from the head-laser. Not sure where your getting your ideas from, as the weapons of the VF-0/1 were being deliberately designed to overcome Zentraadi Battlepods equipped with Energy Conversion Armour.

... and, in the animation, the lasers don't do a very good job against the Octos units. The one Roy destroys blows up because Roy gets CRAZY lucky and manages to land a hit on an open missile launcher with a live warhead still in it. Earlier in the very same scene (Macross Zero ep4 ~8:30) we see him shooting at the actual armor of those two Octos units with his lasers and doing no damage until he hits an exposed missile.

Now, I dunno about you, but seeing Roy's VF-0S try and fail to damage two Octos units with its lasers and seeing the shots bounce off without causing damage is pretty cut and dry proof that the VF-0's lasers don't have the necessary oomph to damage energy conversion armor of the same general power level. I'm really not sure how to make an argument any more definitive than that.

[sketchley]

Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but these books are meant to be supplements to the animation, not vice versa.

Seriously, what's your point then?

This is all stemming from an indisputable fact* that may or may not have been recalled correctly. As you've already decided to leave it, then let it go, and don't bother with it if it ever gets posted here or elsewhere again.

* (Not aimed at Seto Kaiba, but at others who like to nitpick these kinds of things): what is the fact? The fact that it is information published in the book cited.

[sketchley]

2nd topic of debate:

Now, I dunno about you, but seeing Roy's VF-0S try and fail to damage two Octos units with its lasers and seeing the shots bounce off without causing damage is pretty cut and dry proof that the VF-0's lasers don't have the necessary oomph to damage energy conversion armor of the same general power level. I'm really not sure how to make an argument any more definitive than that.

Again, animation who's outcome is dictated by the power of plot cannot be taken in the literal sense. One must keep in mind the circumstances:

- were the shots direct hits, or ones that ricocheted off the armour?

- do the Octos have the anti-laser coating on their armour, like the VF-0, and Sv-51? If so, did Fokker hit the same spot twice?

And let's not forget Shin's use of the head laser, underwater no less, which successfully penetrated an Octos's forward sensor cover. A place that most likely does not have an anti-laser coating, and was definitely a direct hit.

Again, definite proof that the power of plot trumps all, and nebulous proof of the effectiveness of the head lasers.

[frothymug]

When Shin used his laser to try and shoot out Nora's canopy. Either he completely missed it, or they bounced away harmlessly before she proceeded to perforate him with the rest of the rounds in her gunpod. I'm with Seto on this one. There are several instances both where the head lasers are little more than distractive, but are good point-defense systems against incoming missiles. AFAIK, there is a network of ECA circuits integrated into the hull of the craft, but only where there is metal. Is there mention of an anti-laser coating for weak surfaces such as pilot canopies?

[SchizophrenicMC]

You know, strangely, for once, I'm with Sketchley.

Aside from it being explicitly stated in a canon work, that the lasers run on a capacitor, it doesn't make logical sense to assume 650MW. The engines are rated to a maximum of 650MW, each. That means at fuel consumption and performance level right on the brink of them slagging themselves, they can max out about 650MW in ideal conditions. Take out the actuators' power supply, the sensors', the large percent of that power which is being converted to heat specifically for thrust, the amount that's likely greater that is lost to waste heat from operating, and the establishedly-large power cost of Energy Conversion Armor, and you're left with a small amount of power left. That can be used to run the laser at a low power setting, but it's not enough to inflict the kind of massive damage we see them doling out. Keep in mind it takes the Airborne Laser (YAL-1) 5 seconds with a 1MW laser to simply heat up the skin of a thin-skinned missile enough for the projectile to rip itself apart through high-speed flight stress.

We see the lasers on a VF-1 blow holes in other craft in fractions of a second, and pulse thousands of time per second. That kind of damage would have to be at least tenfold on the YAL-1's laser, meaning each pulse draws 10+ MW of power. Multiply by 2 lasers on the -J model and 4 on the -S model, and the number of pulses per second, and you've just severely exceeded your power generation capability. So, what do you do? Keep the laser's power consumption and output the same, but rig a capacitor to store power until it reaches a level where it can keep up with the lasers' needs, and constantly charge it with every bit of leftover power from the reactors.

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, animation who's outcome is dictated by the power of plot cannot be taken in the literal sense. One must keep in mind the circumstances:

Forgive me for saying so, but this whole "power of plot" counter-argument to disprove what we see in the show itself doesn't really stand up. The print sources don't have the power to out-and-out overrule what's in the show itself. What we literally see is Roy trying and failing to inflict any damage on those Octos units until he hits an exposed missile. That is the bare fact of the matter. Roy's lasers didn't have the power necessary to damage the Octos, and thus it's logical to assume that the SV-51 would enjoy similar near-immunity to the VF-0's laser weapons.

- were the shots direct hits, or ones that ricocheted off the armour?

Both... Roy lands a number of direct hits and several glancing blows, none of which do any damage until he hits that exposed missile.

- do the Octos have the anti-laser coating on their armour, like the VF-0, and Sv-51? If so, did Fokker hit the same spot twice?

Okay, now I have a question... where, pray tell, does it say the VF-0 and SV-51 are sporting anti-laser coatings on their armor? It's been a while since I've revisited Macross Zero, and I haven't gotten around to reviewing it in Chronicle yet. Can you please cite a source for this? I ask, because the only VFs I've seen mention of anti-optical weapon armor for are the VF-19 (mentioned in the M+ OVA, presumably extends to the VF-22 as well), VF-25, and VF-171EX.

And let's not forget Shin's use of the head laser, underwater no less, which successfully penetrated an Octos's forward sensor cover. A place that most likely does not have an anti-laser coating, and was definitely a direct hit.

Now, if we're going to argue this point, we should first ask ourselves what the power state for the Octos's energy conversion armor was. Presumably they follow the same general set of guidelines that VF's do, where the ECA is off (or, at best, in a low power state) in fighter (or submarine) mode, and only operating at full power in battroid mode. That Octos was operating in submarine mode, then its energy conversion armor was almost certainly at its lowest power state, making it a much softer target.

In your rush to argue "power of plot", you seem to have overlooked a lot of rather obvious evidence to the contrary.

Aside from it being explicitly stated in a canon work, that the lasers run on a capacitor, it doesn't make logical sense to assume 650MW

... and what canon work would that be? Seriously, inquiring minds wish to know.

That kind of damage would have to be at least tenfold on the YAL-1's laser, meaning each pulse draws 10+ MW of power. Multiply by 2 lasers on the -J model and 4 on the -S model, and the number of pulses per second, and you've just severely exceeded your power generation capability.

Except that, if we're arguing the circumstance dictated in Master File, you're over the mark for the maximum power consumption of the VF-1's laser weaponry by a factor of two. Bear ye in mind, I'm not arguing whether the capacitor would be an asset... I'm arguing that the firing duration it supposedly confers doesn't jive with the series, or subsequent descriptions of a similar setup in later models of fighter in the Master File series.

[sketchley]

Okay, now I have a question... where, pray tell, does it say the VF-0 ...

Pray and god will answer.

and I haven't gotten around to reviewing it in Chronicle yet. Can you please cite a source for this?

When you get around to reviewing Macross Chronicle, you'll find your answer. If god hasn't already answered.

In your rush to argue "power of plot", you seem to have overlooked a lot of rather obvious evidence to the contrary.

Hmmm... let's see, these things do whatever the writers decide they do in any particular scene...? Nope. Nothing overlooked. I humbly recommend that you try some creative writing yourself, so you'll get a firmer understanding of just how powerful writing can be.

[Seto Kaiba]

Pray and god will answer.

Or... and bear with me on this... you could cite the source for your claim instead of acting like a bellend.

When you get around to reviewing Macross Chronicle, you'll find your answer. If god hasn't already answered.

If it's actually in there, and your present behavior is enough to make me doubt that it is, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to tell us what sheet it's on, or even where it is in that sheet. I can't help but think that your new "no, I won't tell you where I got my information, go find it yourself" attitude is strongly reminiscent of the attitude Shaloom took once he was caught in a lie. Now, are you going to cite your source or should we just assume you're spinning a yarn?

Hmmm... let's see, these things do whatever the writers decide they do in any particular scene...? Nope. Nothing overlooked. I humbly recommend that you try some creative writing yourself, so you'll get a firmer understanding of just how powerful writing can be.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the books aren't a higher authority than the show... they're a companion to it, not vice-versa. This ridiculous line you're spouting about "power of plot" is basically just you trying to say that the show itself is wrong because it doesn't agree with what you want to believe. We have the animation that shows us that the VF-0's laser weaponry is basically useless against the Octos's energy conversion armor in a high-power state, and thus we have good cause to suspect that the SV-51 would have little to fear from it. So far, you haven't actually provided a counterargument to the visual evidence from the show itself... all you have done is claim that the show is being deceptive somehow.

(Seriously dude, this isn't like you... what gives?)

[SchizophrenicMC]

... and what canon work would that be? Seriously, inquiring minds wish to know.

Except that, if we're arguing the circumstance dictated in Master File, you're over the mark for the maximum power consumption of the VF-1's laser weaponry by a factor of two. Bear ye in mind, I'm not arguing whether the capacitor would be an asset... I'm arguing that the firing duration it supposedly confers doesn't jive with the series, or subsequent descriptions of a similar setup in later models of fighter in the Master File series.

Well, if we're gonna keep spouting Master File, I mean, that's canon stuff, right? According to Sketch, it says capacitor.

Okay, even if the VF-1A's laser put out only 1MW of power, that is 1,000,000 joules of energy, per second. The laser is capable of, (Oh, EXCUSE ME for quoting the Macross Mecha Manual) 6000 pulses per minute, which is 100 pulses per second. That means you need to draw 100,000,000 joules of energy per second to operate the laser. That is 100MW. This is about a thirteenth the total power the VF-1A can produce.

Still, you have to factor in that the VF-1A can not spend 100% of its time at maximum throttle, and, even if it could, there would be some base inefficiencies that detracted from that. A lot of that power will be lost to heat. A lot more of it will go into powering actuators, ECA, sensors, avionics, not to mention any thrust needs the machine has.

And all that is under the assumption the VF-1A's laser is a 1MW laser. (Which I have to add, again, is not powerful enough, in practice, to cause significant damage without prolonged exposure) Not to mention the J Model or S Model, each of which have more laser units, which each have the same performance as the A-model's. So, you know, 200MW and 400MW draw, in the other models. Still, assuming the Mauler ROV-20 is a 1MW laser. If it's any higher, (Which, I can't imagine a combat-effective laser with a <1MW yield) that end number goes way up.

So, to ensure that power is available, you have a capacitor that can be charged to store that much power to feed the laser when necessary. Not only does it make sense, but VFMF says it's there. Why are we arguing this?

[anime52k8]

I think this is one of the saddest nerd fights I've seen in a while.

Also, I'm not going to change my vote as the original question was who would win in a fly-off competition and make it to production, but Now that I've got an SV-51 toy in hand I realize this is WAY cooler than the VF-0.