What do you think is the most innovative VF design?

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

I personally would have really liked to see a sort of Macross 0.5 where we could see what else the Anti-UN had up their sleeves and perhaps a space-going evolution of the massive SV-51. *sigh* I'll keep day dreaming...

I was watching "Bye Bye Mars" yesterday and thinking it would be neat to see Lt. Riber's story and the Mars base being wiped out by Anti-Un

[valkyriechild]

I thought the "limiter-off" mode in YF-21 has something to do with releasing maximum agility and speed of the aircraft? which unfortunately exceed the ability for human pilot to withstand the G force, as we all can see what happened to Guld in the process.

All this time the limiter is on so human pilot would not die in it.

[anime52k8]

Another thing is that this isn't the only valk that can change it's wings according to the maneuver. The SV-51 can be seen in Zero doing the same "high-speed" mode as the 21/22 with the wings dipped down. Plus the 21/22 can't be stored in a submarine!

I don't think he's talking about the high speed configuaration but rather the YF-21's ability to expand, contract and bend it's entire wing like it was made of rubber.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought the "limiter-off" mode in YF-21 has something to do with releasing maximum agility and speed of the aircraft? which unfortunately exceed the ability for human pilot to withstand the G force, as we all can see what happened to Guld in the process.

Yes, that would seem to be the case... and was also apparently the genesis of research into better anti-g-force measures that culminated in the YF-24 Evolution and its inertia store converter.

[valkyriechild]

Wow, now i know how come alto and the others did not die inside VF-25. Makes sense now.

[LOW_ALT]

I don't think he's talking about the high speed configuaration but rather the YF-21's ability to expand, contract and bend it's entire wing like it was made of rubber.

Oh I know what he meant, I was just making an easily overlooked comparison. Kind of interesting that the very first variable fighter could augment it's wings in ways that could only be bested by a VF that was put into production almost 40 years later. The SV was way ahead of it's time, same with the Sturmvogel.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Gotta say, I'm running out of things to defend my choice of the VF-17. Compact, Internal weapons, passive stealth, Maneuverable (large wing area), and heavily armed. It seems to be the quintessential VF out of the universe. It seemed like the first to combine all of those features. The in universe chronology places the VF-17's first production rollout before the project supernova.

[Product9]

SV-51 is a result of Anti-UN spies travelling to the future and stealing the VF-27 blueprints. They brought them back and the engineers of the time reproduced it to the best of their abilities using current-day technology.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

SV-51 is a result of Anti-UN spies travelling to the future and stealing the VF-27 blueprints. They brought them back and the engineers of the time reproduced it to the best of their abilities using current-day technology.

And yet they still lost the war.

I voted YF-21. Great looking design, advance tech for the time, morphing wings, combination of human and zentron tech/design, detachable arms and legs, BDI system. What more could I want (other then a it being EX-gears compatible? )

[Jasonc]

I pick the YF-21/VF-22. Even thought the BDI wasn't that successful, the technology put into that Valkyrie from the OVA is innovative, and different to anything done before, and afterward. That's not to say that the design is simply badass.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I pick the YF-21/VF-22. Even thought the BDI wasn't that successful, the technology put into that Valkyrie from the OVA is innovative, and different to anything done before, and afterward. That's not to say that the design is simply badass.

Sir I would be honored to buy you a drink!

[Valkyrie Driver]

I gotta say that the 360 view in the VF-19 cockpit is freaking cool. Nice addition to pilot situational awareness. I think the depictions of the VF-17 cockpit had similar panels. The System was probably adapted into the VF-22S as well. That was pretty cool I must admit.

[azrael]

I gotta say that the 360 view in the VF-19 cockpit is freaking cool. Nice addition to pilot situational awareness. I think the depictions of the VF-17 cockpit had similar panels. The System was probably adapted into the VF-22S as well. That was pretty cool I must admit.

The wrap-around imaging screens used in the VF-19 and VF-17 was not adopted into the VF-22.

[frothymug]

The wrap-around imaging screens used in the VF-19 and VF-17 was not adopted into the VF-22.

...because there's a watered-down BDI in it, correct?

[azrael]

...because there's a watered-down BDI in it, correct?

Mostly yeah.

[Valkyrie Driver]

while BDI would be innovative, I don't like the idea of my jet being connected to my brain. would make battroid mode less cumbersome to operate though. As illustrated in M+ so much as a passing thought can make the ship do something you don't want. Especially when trying to keep your situational awareness up. A properly trained individual is constantly evaluating maneuvers and never really finishing each maneuver but transitioning to something else, stringing "combos" together like a judo match. As there is no basis for comparison, we can only speculate on the inner workings of the system.

[striderhiryu]

I'm gona go with the Sv-51 since the transformation sequence seems more practical and influenced the design of the VF-25/27.

[Nicaragua]

while BDI would be innovative, I don't like the idea of my jet being connected to my brain. would make battroid mode less cumbersome to operate though. As illustrated in M+ so much as a passing thought can make the ship do something you don't want. Especially when trying to keep your situational awareness up. A properly trained individual is constantly evaluating maneuvers and never really finishing each maneuver but transitioning to something else, stringing "combos" together like a judo match. As there is no basis for comparison, we can only speculate on the inner workings of the system.

BDI is the direct brain imaging system and dosnt control the actual ship, BCS was the brain control system.

It could still be sueful to have the imaging fed into the brain while still having manual control. Im sure it would have advantages as shown in how Guld plots a course through multiple incoming missiles during one of the tests without risking the pyshcological problems and knee jerk reactions from the BCS.

[frothymug]

BDI is the direct brain imaging system and dosnt control the actual ship, BCS was the brain control system.

It could still be sueful to have the imaging fed into the brain while still having manual control. Im sure it would have advantages as shown in how Guld plots a course through multiple incoming missiles during one of the tests without risking the pyshcological problems and knee jerk reactions from the BCS.

This is already used in the Queadluun Rhea.

[Black Valkyrie]

The VF-19, innovative cock pit transformation.

[SchizophrenicMC]

I skewed the poll data by my first bit of reasoning, here, because I didn't feel like deciding which condition meant more to me.

That said, it depends on how you mean "innovative". If you mean an innovation between established Variable Fighters, skip the next paragraph. Otherwise, read it and see what I mean.

The VF-0 is the single, most innovative Variable Fighter in existence. It took the fuselage of a plane, threw away the horizontal stabilizers, threw in thrust vectoring paddles, and for the first time, utilized a directed energy weapon in a combat aircraft. Not only that, but it improved over existing aircraft, by allowing the pilot to change the plane's geometry to allow for low-speed and VTOL aerial maneuvers, by vectoring all primary thrust down, and using a set of secondary thrusters for forward mobility. It also added a set of manipulators, for load-handling and modularity of weaponry. It also added a third geometry set, configuring the fighter into a humanoid tank, of sorts. Improved fly-by-wire computers, thruster capabilities, and new armor technologies round off the design. The first of a class of aircraft known as Variable Fighters. The only bit of the design of previous aircraft it retained is certain conventions of fighter airframes. Everything else was entirely innovated upon. (You could argue the SV-51, but I like the Zero, better, plus all that I was able to find about it, puts the start of development for it before the -51 )

Alternatively, within the scale of VF's, I'd say the YF-21. First Fold-capable spaceframe, first Brain Control Interface, radical change in design convention, first to use Pinpoint Barrier, first to use Active Stealth- the list goes on.

[M'Kyuun]

I chose the SV-51. While the aesthetics can be debated (I personally love the way it looks in all three modes), I like how the cockpit area of the fuselage forms the centerpiece of the battroid, and effectively positions the VTOL engines for all three modes. The engine areas in the legs are capacious and the three-toed augmentors give excellent stability to both GERWALK and Battroid modes. I'm a fan on non-cockpit-out-front designs, so I like how the LERX suspend the aft fuselage over the cockpit using the VTOL fan door to conceal and protect the canopy. It's a nice simple, practical, and efficient design. Looking at previous designs, the transformation is innovative.

I like the YF-19, and consider its transformation innovative as well: however, having the upper body attached merely by the backpack piece (which must be hollow to contain and conceal the cockpit canopy and still allow for two jet engines) strikes me as a great idea for a toy and an animated design, but not as "realistically" practical as the SV-51.

While alot of folks here consider all the features of the valks as they are featured within the animation and design books, I personally focus on the designs from a purely mechanical standpoint as they relate to the toys, and by extension, to their practicality in a real mechanism. Of all the valks, I think the SV-51 comes closest to being a realizable design within the next 20 to 50 years given our current state of material technology, and perhaps 50-75 years for viable propulsion.

[Valkyrie Driver]

BDI is the direct brain imaging system and dosnt control the actual ship, BCS was the brain control system.

It could still be sueful to have the imaging fed into the brain while still having manual control. Im sure it would have advantages as shown in how Guld plots a course through multiple incoming missiles during one of the tests without risking the pyshcological problems and knee jerk reactions from the BCS.

Oh, I guess I can see, that, it actually might help heighten the pilot's situational awareness then. I thought the two systems were tied together, that was my misunderstanding.

[Desty_Nova]

I voted yf-21 for being the only valk I'm aware of that is still a fully functional plane with all it's limbs missing.

[Radd]

By definition the VF-1 would be the "most innovative". I'd have said, "most innovative since the VF-1".

Even then, plenty of room for personal judgement and opinion. How do you define innovation in fictional transforming aircraft? Technology? Performance boosting enhancements? Visual style? Transformation?

The 19, 21/22, VB-6 and VA-3 all probably stray the most from the VF-1 and VF-4 design fundamentals, with the VB-6 being one of the few designs not based at all on older

variable fighter designs going for taking an old destroid and making it variable instead.

The Cutlass probably has the most unique transformation, followed by the VF-4.

The VF-17 is the only design based on a stealth fighter. The VF-4 is the only design based on updating a pre-jet WWII fighter into something modern. Only the VF-14 is based on the very unique looking SR-71 Blackbird.

The YF-21/VF-22 is the only battroid designed to look like a Q-Rau, but then do we consider the Variable Glaug as a VF? The 21 alone brought in the BDI system for controlling the fighter with thought alone. The 21 and 22 both have the flexible wings, unless I'm mistaken.

Do we consider when they were produced within the Macross timeline, or when Kawamori sketched them out?

[Valkyrie Driver]

Radd brings up an interesting point. Well, the VF-11 could be innovative as it is the first VF to incorporate a ballistic shield, and a reloadable weapon. the VF-5000 is the first to incorporate fully internal missile armaments. The VF-17 Incorporates passive stealth features, and the ability to achieve escape velocity without boosters. The VF-4 for integrating heavy beam weaponry as a primary armament. The YF/VF-19 is radically different, the transformation is more complex, the wing is a FSW configuration, it has Internal missile armaments, beam cannon, ability to achieve escape velocity under it's own power, ballistic shield, reloadable weapon. It is a culmination of everything that came before it, plus the PinPoint Barrier and Panoramic cockpit. The YF-21/VF-22 was the most radically different, as it deviated the most from the original layout. the engines became the backpack unit, rather than the legs. The Pilot recieved input from BDI. but essentially all the guts were a culmination of what came before. To me I'd say the most innovative would be the one that made the biggest impact on variable fighters, since the VF-1, Which I'd say is the VF-11. It did the the ballistic Shield first, and it did the reloadable weapon first, which has been standard on all VF's since.

[sketchley]

There are some errors in your post.

Well, the VF-11 could be innovative as it is the first VF to incorporate a ballistic shield, and a reloadable weapon.

Ballistic shield: as a dedicated shield, yes. However, the VA-3 has dual purpose ballistic shields/wing units.

If VFMF:VF-1 Wings of Space is valid, then the VF-1X/VF-1P are the first with a re-loadable gun pod. If it's not valid, than the VF-3000 is, as they're all using the same weapon.

the VF-5000 is the first to incorporate fully internal missile armaments.

Pending the development of the VA-3 (believe you me, I've looked, and natta), the VA-3 could be the first with internal micro-missile launchers.

The VF-17 Incorporates passive stealth features, and the ability to achieve escape velocity without boosters.

The VF-5000 has been indicated as the first to use passive stealth features.

The VF-1 was shown as the first to reach low orbit unassisted (SDFM eps 01 & 02). Though, if you add the caveat of being able to perform in combat after achieving orbit, then that would be the VF-4.

The VF-4 for integrating heavy beam weaponry as a primary armament.

Correct.

The YF/VF-19 is radically different, the transformation is more complex, the wing is a FSW configuration,

The VF-9 is the first with forward-swept wings AND has a more complex transformation (wings become the torso). The VA-3 and VF-4 also have more complex transformations.

Y/VF19 con't: plus the PinPoint Barrier and Panoramic cockpit.

Though it might be the first VF to have a PPB, the Monster Destroid was the first small-scale unit to be equipped with a PPB.

If "panoramic cockpit" equals "wrap around imaging monitor", than yes, it's the first. (former equates to unhindered view (which is not canon, as things like the instrument panel and seat get in the way), latter equates to "slightly" hindered view (screens under the feet, etc).)

The YF-21/VF-22 was the most radically different, as it deviated the most from the original layout. the engines became the backpack unit, rather than the legs.

VA-3 predates the YF-21/VF-22, and also has engines that form a backpack unit. The VF-4, VF-14 series, and VB-6 also deviate a lot more than the YF-21/VF-22 from the VF-1's "original" layout.

YF-21/VF-22 con't: The Pilot recieved input from BDI.

correct.

Now that that's out of the way,

To me I'd say the most innovative would be the one that made the biggest impact on variable fighters, since the VF-1, Which I'd say is the VF-11.

I have to disagree. The VF-3000, despite not being mass-produced, had a far greater impact than the VF-11. In as much as the VF-4 adopted the control system developed for the VF-3000, and the VF-5000 was developed based on the VF-3000's test data. Both being direct predecessors to the VF-11, which only really did one new thing: work equally well in all regimes (a problem since the very beginning, despite the VF-1 being generally accepted as an all-regime fighter).

After that, I'd like to say the VF-17, but I'm waffling between it and the YF-19/YF-21 Project Supernova AVF, followed by the YF-24 Evolution, as the ones that have made the next largest impacts.

Edited January 16, 2011 by sketchley

[Valkyrie Driver]

Sketchley, I was unaware of a bunch of those VF's you mentioned, as I've only got what I've read, and seen to go by. I thank you for pointing out the flaws in my argument, The Point I was trying to make still stands, there were multiple contributors that culminated in the 5th gen variable fighters seen in Macross Plus/Macross 7. I can only cram so much info into my brain.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Which is the greater innovation? The ones with one improvement, or the one with the most improvements?

[sketchley]

(...) The Point I was trying to make still stands, there were multiple contributors that culminated in the 5th gen variable fighters seen in Macross Plus/Macross 7.

Nods.

However, I've never seen the AVF (Advanced Variable Fighter) from M+ described as "5th generation". I think that's a real-world terminology slip-up.

If memory serves, I don't think variable fighters have ever been referred to by generation. If they were, then it would be something along the lines of:

Gen 1: VF-1

Gen 1.5: VF-4, VF-5000, etc.

Gen 2: VF-11, VF-14, etc.

Gen 3: VF-19, YF-21, etc.

Gen 4: YF-24, VF-25, etc.

[sketchley]

Sketchley, I was unaware of a bunch of those VF's you mentioned,

Here's the most complete list that I've been able to come up with:

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics.htm#Variable_Fighters

[Valkyrie Driver]

Nods.

However, I've never seen the AVF (Advanced Variable Fighter) from M+ described as "5th generation". I think that's a real-world terminology slip-up.

If memory serves, I don't think variable fighters have ever been referred to by generation. If they were, then it would be something along the lines of:

Gen 1: VF-1

Gen 1.5: VF-4, VF-5000, etc.

Gen 2: VF-11, VF-14, etc.

Gen 3: VF-19, YF-21, etc.

Gen 4: YF-24, VF-25, etc.

That was my own thing, I guess I miscounted, again, my bad. That list would describe it better, than I was attempting to.