FNG's thoughts on Macross

[s001]

DYRL?-meh

You take that back!

DYRL is the essence of Macross itself.

This guy is joking right?

[nexxstrait]

You take that back!

DYRL is the essence of Macross itself.

This guy is joking right?

I don't like DYRL all that much either, both as a Macross title and (especially) as a stand-alone movie. MPlus movie on the whole is still the best theatrical Macross rendition to date

[Nicaragua]

I don't like DYRL all that much either, both as a Macross title and (especially) as a stand-alone movie. MPlus movie on the whole is still the best theatrical Macross rendition to date

Same here, i dont get why DYRL is held in such high regard on these forums.

[Gubaba]

Same here, i dont get why DYRL is held in such high regard on these forums.

Why wouldn't it be? Two more hours to spend with characters we know and love, beautifully rendered and with great music. What's wrong with that?

[Bri]

Finally Macross Frontier. I did not particularly enjoy the gundam seed syndrome the show suffered from. The adolescent ace pilots and the Vajra. Fighting space bugs with a variable fighter was not what I had hoped for when I saw the first episode. Alto was too emo and angsty, and the only reason I continued to watch was because I liked see Ozma Lee and Klan Klan kicking ass, and to see Alto get his ass handed to him. I waited in vain, because it never really happened.[...] Frontier too suffers from the Super Sentai syndrome. Also, I HATE PRIVATE MILITARY CONTRACTORS. I do not identify with them, and despise the concept. The fact that the heroes are all mercs rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not a big fan of the love triangle of Frontier but I like the Vaijra and the MF storyline. The "bug" like nature of the Vaijra was essential to dehumanize the enemy and pull off the DYRL plot inversion with the human forces now in the role of the Zentradi.

Forgive me for saying so, but that's a rather odd complaint for someone who was "brought into the world of anime" by Gundam. Gundam's downright famous for its angsty teenage pilots in most of its universes... and I think it's safe to say that in terms of emoness or angst, Alto has nothing on the likes of a young Amuro Ray, Camille Bidan, Judau Ashta (in the second half), Uso Ebbing, Kira Yamato, Relina Peacecraft, Saji Crossroad, etc.

A difference is that post-evangelion mecha shows often have pilots that are effeminate and fabulousin addition to being angsty. These bishonen tropes date back to the increased influence of shoujo mange on anime in the late 90s. The new Bones mecha Star Driver takes the Bishi concept to a whole new level of testosterone estrogen fueled epicness.

Not sure how Frontier could be said to suffer from "super sentai syndrome"... but I do agree on the subject of PMCs. They were trendy as heroes for a while, now they're trendy as villains... particularly in video games. It irked me to see the New UN Spacy portrayed as barely competent while swaggering mercenaries with all the latest toys wade nigh-invincibly through combat. It's hardly a realistic depiction of PMCs either... SMS is more like MITHRIL from Full Metal Panic! than anything.

Unlike MITHRIL, the SMS just had an air about it, that bugged me. MITHRIL was a bit too fantastic and functioned, as it seemed to me, more like a military organization, than SMS did. The "Super Sentai Syndrome" I refer to is based on how the "elite" SMS had to run out and save the day, while the regular troopers languished in incompetency. MITHRIL, was better equipped in FMP! but overall was as well trained as any professional military. SMS seemed to be somehow on that standard, while the regulars were shown as two cuts below the norm. The whole show seemed over exaggerated to me, and it was over the top to my taste, that's all I was trying to say, other than the PMC comment, But we can talk about that some other time.

When have military organisations been portrayed as positive in anime? At best they presented as bureaucratic, wasteful, corrupt institutions and usually ineffective against any major threat. It's always one group, unit or ship including a number of high-school aged kids that is different from the norm and save the day, nothing new or different in MF there.

[anime52k8]

A difference is that post-evangelion mecha shows often have pilots that are effeminate and fabulousin addition to being angsty. These bishonen tropes date back to the increased influence of shoujo mange on anime in the late 90s. The new Bones mecha Star Driver takes the Bishi concept to a whole new level of testosterone estrogen fueled epicness.

The bishonen male pilot thing goes back to way before evangelion; you can see it as far back as Gundam 0079 and I'm sure there are even older examples that I can't think of off the top of my head.

still I don't really see how that effects characters like Alto. To me Alto comes off as a very much like a slightly more mellow version of Camille Bidan from Gundam Z.

[Bri]

The bishonen male pilot thing goes back to way before evangelion; you can see it as far back as Gundam 0079 and I'm sure there are even older examples that I can't think of off the top of my head.

still I don't really see how that effects characters like Alto. To me Alto comes off as a very much like a slightly more mellow version of Camille Bidan from Gundam Z.

Camille and Amuro are bishonen in the original definition of the word, but I was talking about bishonen-tropes. Modern bishies based on shoujo type manga: aka feminine, long tall characters who look like they have a personal stylist on call and have a need to share their dark brooding nature to the world. Think Twilight. Often accompanied by a sempai or best friend character for Fujoshi fanservice. Camille and Amuro cannot really be mistaken for teenage girls, otherwise Char would have nailed them on the spot

Same way as Minmay is "moe" before the term was coined. However she is not a moe-stereotypical character like Ranka, who starts of as a standard airhead type moeblob with fixed set of behaviours (although she improves in time).

As for where Eva comes in: it is often credited with starting off the change in anime from primarily plot driven shows to character driven works. It also set off character cults. Kaworu Nagisa is imo the first true modern bishie in anime. Gundam Seed really "perfected" the principle for mecha with Kira and Arthran.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Bri

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

DYRL is the essence of Macross itself.

+1

[ff95gj]

DYRL is not for people without Macross knowledge. I believe one will be lost in the story. But for SDF lovers, I can't see why it is not a welcomed, upgraded recapture of the original series. Especially the original anime quality is not really well drawn.

Personally my best still go to the original SDF, but DYRL is more than just meh to me.

[sketchley]

I have mixed feelings about DYRL. At the end of the day, it's a lesser Macross, because of the story aspects as ff95gj said, and, though I don't have a problem with the underlying art per se, there are a lot of scenes where there is way too much detail. To the point that it gets confusing if you don't know what you're looking at (ie more confusing for the Macross uninitiated).

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

there are a lot of scenes where there is way too much detail.

You don't hear that much

[Killer Robot]

I find DYRL amazing for visuals and sound, vacant for plot and connection to characters. It's a whole lot of fun after SDFM, but in the same way that it's fun to finish a 90s Playstation game with all its blocky polygons, then be treated to a nice CGI music video that means nothing on itself but gives a high-detail face to the good memory of what you just played through. (In my particular case I got things backwards and saw it before I saw SDFM. It was pretty, but meant nothing to me at the time.)

Problem is, as time has gone by, and with successive Macross releases like Plus and Frontier, it's gotten less visually standout, and so the flaws just stand out more even for a viewer more familiar with SDFM. It's still hardly awful, but if I'm going to put something on a pedestal today for being concise and visually impressive, I'll go with the more strongly plotted Macross Plus. Which also has its flaws as a Macross title, but nothing's perfect.

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

While I agree familiarity with SDF is important for a complete enjoyment of DYRL?, I feel that it has its own charms above the visuals.

1)The visuals, not just detail, but style, in my opinion are outstanding and unlike the Mac F movie and Mac Plus movie, it did not reuse animation in its re-telling, bonus points there. Sure Macross Frontier and ZERO are pretty, but DYRL?, much like Mac Plus, is hand drawn, lending its own unique sense of style that the newer CG productions cannot touch, and when they try it looks a little funny (Reactive Armour Roy scene in Zero anyone?) DYRL? is visually the first or second best hand drawn Macross (depending on your feelings about PLUS).

2)I felt that DYRL? had a more adult feel to it, and a more serious tone then SDF. Some people don't like that; however, I do and Macross Plus and ZERO also have this in common. Roy's death, the desolate earth, Minmei's rescue scene and the last battle all had a more dramatic, epic feeling to it then SDF. Earth was destroyed in Ep 27 SDF during the battle, where in DYRL? it was already gone, making it more dramatic as we really understand that the SDF-1 is really the last of humankind, whereas during Love Drifts Away, we aren't quite sure the entire extent of the earths destruction (later finding out it was mostly complete).

3)People complain about poor/little development of secondary characters, but I feel that they did not really deviate from SDF and so if you had watched SDF, the characterization of the secondaries while it would be nice, was not needed. Like I said above, DYRL? is better enjoyed with a familiarization with the SDF characters.

Anyway, to each there own, but I do think DYRL? is fantastic and it makes me sad that people don't like it but LOVE the new Frontier movie.

Edited November 29, 2010 by Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX

[valkyriechild]

I also miss the traditional hand drawn animation in anime mechas, which quite rare these days.

No matter how good CGI is, there are some things that can not be achieved unless it is hand drawn, i can not explain it though.

Time has change, and japan is not in the 90's anymore. Besides CGI is getting cheaper.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think that might be partly because this is your first entry into the 2050+ timeframe. The backstory is that UN Spacy is going through a decay in its political and military structures and is no longer the effective organization it once was. Its why they are now called the New UN Spacy. You saw it in Digital Mission VFX 2, where a corporate/criminal syndicate hijacks a macross battleship and almost brings down the government... its only a crack pilot team that actually saves the day. Political decay is alluded to in Macross Plus (both visually in the opening fight sequence and by Willard when talking about Super Nova's mission profile) as well.In Frontier, its stated that UN Spacy is a bureaucratic mess and its cheaper to get SMS to undertake a mission than the military.

If you're looking for an academic link to this, think about Mancur Olson's Rise and Decline of Nations. Consider a state that has gone to the point where the vested power groups become so powerful that they basically stifle growth and innovation... I think thats what 2060 in macross looks like.

I think I get where you're going, the military industrial complex and the political machine merge into a pre-bolshevick type oligarchy? That would make sense, and the comparison to Soviet Russia being their military's general lack of quality training compared to westernized schools of war?

[Valkyrie Driver]

Ok ok, I get it. I guess the teenage pilots thing was not as evident, or they appeared more mature than the average teenager. That may have a lot to do with the fact that most of the teenagers I knew growing up were middle American farmboys. Maybe teenagers are more mature outside the states, certainly they are when they join the military. Still, I was just sort of confronted with the angsty "bishonen" trope more openly in frontier. I dunno, maybe I need to watch frontier again, to get a better impression on it. If nothing less I'll get the cool mecha porn, and... klan klan was hot... I guess I just like supporting characters better, cuz I'm never in the limelight...

[Noyhauser]

I think I get where you're going, the military industrial complex and the political machine merge into a pre-bolshevick type oligarchy?

Eh, thats a lot of jargon and terminology that doesn't all go together that well.

From what we've seen, the democratically elected leaderships aren't weak vis-a-vis their military colleagues in Macross. If anything the opposite is true... politicians play their proper role in the decision-making process. Moreover the military has not faced a major threat in several decades (like the Space War One), leading it to become excessively bureaucratized and inflexible. In reality I think they believe all they need is enough firepower to take on a Zentredi fleet... thats alll. Civilianization is a term we use for it. And if there was a "military industrial complex" you wouldn't see NUNS be equipped with 20 year old upgraded versions of the VF-17, and struggling to upgrade them

That would make sense, and the comparison to Soviet Russia being their military's general lack of quality training compared to westernized schools of war?

Are we talking about the Soviet army circa 1940 or 1980? Because by the latter date its arguable that their training had improved to the extent that they were not far off from NATO forces... probably enough to beat us.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Noyhauser

[Seto Kaiba]

In reality I think they believe all they need is enough firepower to take on a Zentradi fleet... that's all. [...] And if there was a "military industrial complex" you wouldn't see NUNS be equipped with 20 year old upgraded versions of the VF-17, and struggling to upgrade them

Uh... I know this is a bit of a non sequitur, but you're misrepresenting things a bit. The VF-171 isn't an upgrade version of the VF-17, it's a new aircraft developed from the VF-17. It's also not twenty years old. The Nightmare Plus's first flight was in 2046, and by all indications it didn't enter service until the 2050s. It's described as highly versatile and cost-effective, with balanced performance and outstanding maneuverability. It's hardly the discount clunker you're painting it as. It got punk'd by the Vajra because they're every bit as painfully uber as the next-gen VF-25 and VF-27, not because it was substandard.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[frothymug]

The NUNS of Frontier was pretty quick to get their asses into gear and throw some major upgrades into the VF-171, once they developed anti-Vajra munitions. Gotta give them credit for upping their game so quickly to meet the challenge head-on. Let's not forget our dear friends of Diamond Force in eps 14 and 24 whoopin' up on some nasty bugs flying both the VF-171 and VF-171EX.

[Valkyrie Driver]

If you look at the soviet russia example, Soviet military technology had always been at least 10 years behind the US. Now I'll agree that the 1980's soviet military had improved training, but western militaries had higher standards for their personnel. The average US trooper was more intelligent than his Soviet Counterpart. (Russia has closed this gap easily with the collapse of communism.) Granted this is a generalization, but the comparison is still good. The Military-industrial complex doesn't necessarily mean that the gear will be better, or more advanced. Again russia makes a good example, Their fighters during the cold war were designed to be simple to manufacture and operate. Ease of maintenance and their rugged and robust design contribute to their ability. Though recently they've started to incorporate fly by wire tech so they can use relaxed static stability for making more maneuverable fighters.

[sketchley]

The average US trooper was more intelligent than his Soviet Counterpart.

Wow.

Just wow. That's a repugnant statement. Do you have IQ tests to back that statement up?

(Just so you're aware of where I'm coming from: when I read trooper, I understand "ground infantry".) I have seen (own eyes, news, the patronizing messages that AFKN broadcast to their own personnel), things that have highlighted the lack of intelligence amongst US troopers.

So, it begs the question that if those bad apples are painting the US troopers badly, couldn't the same be true of the Soviet Counterparts? And that the relative intelligence and wisdom of either side's troopers are relatively the same?

[Dynaman]

Wow.

Just wow. That's a repugnant statement. Do you have IQ tests to back that statement up?

To take this in another direction. The Soviet policy of sending their "allies" the second rate equipment is more in line with the thread up till now. Russia and the most trusted of the Warsaw Pact countries got the best stuff, on down the line till we have the least reliable countries getting equipment that was only really usable for controlling the local population. This is not just for cynical reasons - you don't want the good stuff being accidently "found" by the werstern allies in a ditch, where they could then research it...

On the western allies front, the superpowers once again got the best equipment, down the line till the least economically developed nations had equipment that was, once again, not useful for much more then local population control. Same reason about not wanting it to fall into the other side's hands still applies.

[Noyhauser]

Uh... I know this is a bit of a non sequitur, but you're misrepresenting things a bit. The VF-171 isn't an upgrade version of the VF-17, it's a new aircraft developed from the VF-17. It's also not twenty years old. The Nightmare Plus's first flight was in 2046, and by all indications it didn't enter service until the 2050s. It's described as highly versatile and cost-effective, with balanced performance and outstanding maneuverability. It's hardly the discount clunker you're painting it as. It got punk'd by the Vajra because they're every bit as painfully uber as the next-gen VF-25 and VF-27, not because it was substandard.

Uh, I didn't say it was "clunker," but certainly a derivative model of an older fighter. Its kinda like the F-15 Silent Eagle. I think the series makes it clear that the colony forces are not a front line fighting force and are limited in their experience and capabilities. Anything beyond a basic level of missions is given to SMS.

Wow.

Just wow. That's a repugnant statement. Do you have IQ tests to back that statement up?

(Just so you're aware of where I'm coming from: when I read trooper, I understand "ground infantry".) I have seen (own eyes, news, the patronizing messages that AFKN broadcast to their own personnel), things that have highlighted the lack of intelligence amongst US troopers.

So, it begs the question that if those bad apples are painting the US troopers badly, couldn't the same be true of the Soviet Counterparts? And that the relative intelligence and wisdom of either side's troopers are relatively the same?

Its also factually incorrect. The Soviet Union was very good about education; it was considered one of the core rights people have. In the areas of science and maths, they were near western standards of education. Moreover literacy was at 98% and higher than in the United States, if I remember correctly. The system basically collapsed with the soviet union and education is nowhere near where it once was.

[Seto Kaiba]

Uh, I didn't say it was "clunker," but certainly a derivative model of an older fighter. Its kinda like the F-15 Silent Eagle.

You might not have said it explicitly... but you were certainly heading that way. The VF-171 was neither as old as you claimed, nor is it merely an upgrade of the existing version. There were some fairly significant changes between the VF-17 and VF-171, including (but not limited to) a redesigned airframe with better performance in atmospheric flight, better stealth and defensive systems, and improved ease of control. But for the having the engines downtuned, the relationship between the VF-17 and VF-171 is more like that of the F/A-18C/D Hornet and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

I think the series makes it clear that the colony forces are not a front line fighting force and are limited in their experience and capabilities. Anything beyond a basic level of missions is given to SMS.

Oh, the series does explain why the New UN Spacy forces attached to the Macross Frontier fleet aren't taking center stage... and that ain't why. Luca and Michel's dialogue in episode 4 explains that the reason the gov't keeps sending SMS to do everything is that mobilizing SMS involves a lot less red tape than mobilizing troops from the NUNS garrison to do the same job. That is why they keep giving missions to SMS. Bureaucracy, not incompetence or a lack of capability. Once the NUNS upgrades its gear for greater effectiveness against the Vajra, they prove they're just as capable as SMS (if not moreso, numerical advantage and all) at wrecking the Vajra's sh*t.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Noyhauser]

You might not have said it explicitly... but you were certainly heading that way. The VF-171 was neither as old as you claimed, nor is it merely an upgrade of the existing version. There were some fairly significant changes between the VF-17 and VF-171, including (but not limited to) a redesigned airframe with better performance in atmospheric flight, better stealth and defensive systems, and improved ease of control. But for the having the engines downtuned, the relationship between the VF-17 and VF-171 is more like that of the F/A-18C/D Hornet and the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

Oh, the series does explain why the New UN Spacy forces attached to the Macross Frontier fleet aren't taking center stage... and that ain't why. Luca and Michel's dialogue in episode 4 explains that the reason the gov't keeps sending SMS to do everything is that mobilizing SMS involves a lot less red tape than mobilizing troops from the NUNS garrison to do the same job. That is why they keep giving missions to SMS. Bureaucracy, not incompetence or a lack of capability. Once the NUNS upgrades its gear for greater effectiveness against the Vajra, they prove they're just as capable as SMS (if not moreso, numerical advantage and all) at wrecking the Vajra's sh*t.

Whatever Seto, as with everything else in the world you know better about the disposition of NUNS forces, aerospace design history and even what I meant to say.

[Keith]

Whatever Seto, as with everything else in the world you know better about the disposition of NUNS forces, aerospace design history and even what I meant to say.

The really cool thing is, you can call Seto when your girlfdiend/wife ask's you what you want for dinner, and he'll totally know the answer too. Can't tell you how many times he's pulled my ass out of the fire there.

[Seto Kaiba]

The really cool thing is, you can call Seto when your girlfdiend/wife ask's you what you want for dinner, and he'll totally know the answer too. Can't tell you how many times he's pulled my ass out of the fire there.

Oh, totally... the one thing I can't tell you is why kids love cinnamon toast crunch.

Whatever Seto, as with everything else in the world you know better about the disposition of NUNS forces, aerospace design history and even what I meant to say.

'kay... nothing's been said here that's worth getting that upset about. You were right that what's hamstringing the New UN Spacy is an excessive bureaucracy, that much is easily supportable. The only problem was the few assumptions you made based on that... e.g. that the NUNS is an inexperienced, incompetent batch of idjuts with dated and inadequate equipment. Their problem (aside from all the bureaucracy) is that they're a well-equipped and highly versatile force that got stuck fighting an enemy that gave the galaxy's greatest civilization pause for thought and only the newest and most advanced weapons (the not-approved-for-military-adoption VF-25) had what it takes to fight them on a level footing.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Dynaman]

Their problem (aside from all the bureaucracy) is that they're a well-equipped and highly versatile force that got stuck fighting an enemy that gave the galaxy's greatest civilization pause for thought and only the newest and most advanced weapons (the not-approved-for-military-adoption VF-25) had what it takes to fight them on a level footing.

The early dialog in the show between Ozma and the NUNS forces doesn't help, Ozma basically calls them incompatent idiots. (At least the subs I watched) Seeing the NUNS forces get trounced lends some creadence to this.

What the viewers don't find out till later is that the Vajra very quickly (in BORG like style) adapt defenses to any threat - and by the time of Frontier's start the Vajra had already been up against NUNS equipment before. The SMS can adapt to this, since they get to test new stuff and deploy it without an excess of paperwork, while the NUNS - well...

Edited December 3, 2010 by Dynaman

[Nicaragua]

The early dialog in the show between Ozma and the NUNS forces doesn't help, Ozma basically calls them incompatent idiots. (At least the subs I watched) Seeing the NUNS forces get trounced lends some creadence to this.

What the viewers don't find out till later is that the Vajra very quickly (in BORG like style) adapt defenses to any threat - and by the time of Frontier's start the Vajra had already been up against NUNS equipment before. The SMS can adapt to this, since they get to test new stuff and deploy it without an excess of paperwork, while the NUNS - well...

I dont see how that makes SMS more effective than the NUNS though. At the beginning of the series then there is no special ammo or weapon being used by SMS that the standard NUNS havent had access to, which means that they are just using the same weapons that the Vajra should have already had a chance to adapt to.

I think you guys are just overanalysing this. The SMS forces are supposed to be super duper elite and thats that.

[Seto Kaiba]

The early dialog in the show between Ozma and the NUNS forces doesn't help, Ozma basically calls them incompatent idiots. (At least the subs I watched) Seeing the NUNS forces get trounced lends some creadence to this.

Granted, Ozma is fairly contemptuous of the New UN Spacy forces in the Macross Frontier series... but he isn't anything like impartial, being that he's a former NUNS pilot who quit out of guilt and he's being snide from behind the relative safety of a next-gen VF with battleship-grade armor and enough firepower to let him fight the Vajra on an even footing. I doubt he'd be so cavalier about it if he were the one in flying the VF-171.

I dont see how that makes SMS more effective than the NUNS though. At the beginning of the series then there is no special ammo or weapon being used by SMS that the standard NUNS havent had access to, which means that they are just using the same weapons that the Vajra should have already had a chance to adapt to.

Eh... at the beginning of the series, SMS is still using next-gen weaponry against the Vajra. They stick to the gunpods a lot, and by all indications we're talking about AP rounds of significantly greater power in a caliber nearly half-again as large as that used by the previous generations. The description of the VF-19 "monkey model" on the website for Macross the Ride suggests that it needed significant modifications to prevent the GU-17A's greater recoil from damaging the airframe... that alone speaks to a substantial increase in firepower.

I think you guys are just overanalysing this. The SMS forces are supposed to be super duper elite and thats that.

Oh, I don't deny it... SMS is one "allies of justice" complex short of being Mithril. All I'm saying is that the NUNS isn't incompetent, they're just hamstrung by bureaucracy and lacking the bleeding edge weaponry necessary to be big damn heroes like SMS. ;-)

[Valkyrie Driver]

Its also factually incorrect. The Soviet Union was very good about education; it was considered one of the core rights people have. In the areas of science and maths, they were near western standards of education. Moreover literacy was at 98% and higher than in the United States, if I remember correctly. The system basically collapsed with the soviet union and education is nowhere near where it once was.

I guess, I've been reading bad info. I'd like to discontinue this particular line of discussion as, I appear to be wrong and will need to do more research on the subject.

As for the VF-171, the comparison to the F-15 silent eagle is accurate. It seems to be a revamped and updated design, with some noticeable changes to the aerospace frame. It would be comparable to a modern produced f-86 saber with updated avionics, weapons and engines.

[sketchley]

The SMS forces are supposed to be super duper elite and thats that.

That's probably the best description there is. Personally, I prefer "because the plot dictates it be so", but that's just me.

[Nicaragua]

Eh... at the beginning of the series, SMS is still using next-gen weaponry against the Vajra. They stick to the gunpods a lot, and by all indications we're talking about AP rounds of significantly greater power in a caliber nearly half-again as large as that used by the previous generations. The description of the VF-19 "monkey model" on the website for Macross the Ride suggests that it needed significant modifications to prevent the GU-17A's greater recoil from damaging the airframe... that alone speaks to a substantial increase in firepower.

But surely no matter what calibre or quantity of shells are being flung at the Vajra isnt going to be anything too different than what they have encountered (and adapted to) from their millenia of existance or recent battles against Macross Galaxy? The Vajra have fought (and adapted to) capital ships so how is a new gunpod going to make them break a sweat?

Im sure you can think of a reason but its not going to be something obvious to the average viewer, and so the fact remains that SMS are better because they are written that way.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Dynaman]

But surely no matter what calibre or quantity of shells are being flung at the Vajra isnt going to be anything too different than what they have encountered (and adapted to) from their millenia of existance or recent battles against Macross Galaxy? The Vajra have fought (and adapted to) capital ships so how is a new gunpod going to make them break a sweat?

From the show it is obvious they must "forget" certain defenses over time - it goes without saying that they must have gone up against one of those old Zentradi battle suits before (from the episode where Alto is going through his initiation battle)

[Million Star]

Wow.

Just wow. That's a repugnant statement. Do you have IQ tests to back that statement up?

(Just so you're aware of where I'm coming from: when I read trooper, I understand "ground infantry".) I have seen (own eyes, news, the patronizing messages that AFKN broadcast to their own personnel), things that have highlighted the lack of intelligence amongst US troopers.

So, it begs the question that if those bad apples are painting the US troopers badly, couldn't the same be true of the Soviet Counterparts? And that the relative intelligence and wisdom of either side's troopers are relatively the same?

Considering during the `80s most Soviet troops were conscripts and all US troops were volounteers I don`t find this surprising at all. The Soviets had a war to fight in Afghanistan and would have been less picky about intelligence, the US however had the luxury of peace and the ability to pick and choose their personell to a higher degree. You could also argue that freedom and capitalism moulds individuals to be more free thinking and have more initiative and free thought than a communist who is taught to be a cog in a wheel. This also may have accounted for more intelligent US troops.

You can also look at US performance in Grenada and Panama and see the level of tech and precision employed was already miles ahead of the Soviets fighting during the same era in the `Stan. It takes more intelligence and training to operate the more advanced equipment that the US had.

I mean you can see that communist tactics have never been brilliant in any conflict, peferring brute force and mass sacrafice for the greater good than well thought out tactics that save lives. You might say that individual human life is more valuable in a society like the US as well, so they fight `smarter`.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Million Star