FNG's thoughts on Macross

[ff95gj]

Most of the haters probably don't care anymore, but truth be told, I think a lot of us just feel unwelcome here now because the minute we spark up a personal opinion on 7, we get ripped to shreds. If you don't like M7, you can't play here, you're a troll. I've been on this forum for a few years now, and some jack-hole called me a troll because I said I didn't like 7.

Got the same feeling too. If one does not like M7:

- You don't know enough about the Macross series to understand that M7 is a well-implemented, if not perfect, embodiment of the Macross messages (teachings).

- You cannot accept new things.

- You are of the minority. <implication: your opinion is considered statistical outsiders - meaning you are just abnormal>

- It was a big hit in Japan. You said you don't like it? <implication: you don't have taste>

- You don't have taste. <explicitly>

Baseline: it's your own fault if you don't like M7.

Oh, one thing I don't like M7 is that it divided us. If we Macrossers had united we might have defeated the Gundams.

[peter]

Got the same feeling too. If one does not like M7:

- You don't know enough about the Macross series to understand that M7 is a well-implemented, if not perfect, embodiment of the Macross messages (teachings).

- You cannot accept new things.

- You are of the minority. <implication: your opinion is considered statistical outsiders - meaning you are just abnormal>

- It was a big hit in Japan. You said you don't like it? <implication: you don't have taste>

- You don't have taste. <explicitly>

Baseline: it's your own fault if you don't like M7.

Oh, one thing I don't like M7 is that it divided us. If we Macrossers had united we might have defeated the Gundams.

haha, yes, Gundam is the bain of my existence....everytime I see a copy of Hobby Japan, or Dengeki Hobby, I lament that there is not an image of Macross splashed across the cover......bloody Gundam....

[Seto Kaiba]

WTF? Rooted in reality? Giant robots that transforms into airplanes?? A machine that can increase or decrese the body size?? Have you thought how absurd it does sound? it is more plausible that Belldandy (a goddess) can do it.

Eh... honestly, I think "advanced technology did it" is still probably a more plausible explanation for a fantastic occurrence than "a wizard did it". Granted, it's not meant to be entirely realistic or 100% plausible... if it were, it wouldn't be SF or nearly as entertaining.

Got the same feeling too. If one does not like M7: [...]

Yeah... I got that too, to a certain extent. It never made me feel particularly unwelcome (it was the "you're a Macross II fan? That show sucks!" sort of behavior that did that), but after a while that sort of thing did get a little tiresome. I've only rarely had people give me grief for criticizing Macross 7 though... and a lot of that was, I admit, mostly an attempt to get me to give the show another (fair) chance... which I only got around to doing with the recent re-release of the series. I'm still not fond of it, but I no longer think it's completely without redeeming qualities.

In my experience, Macross 7 rarely goes over well with serious-minded people. It's the same type of show as Gurren Lagann or G Gundam where you have to suspend rationality for a while and just appreciate it for the crazy, pointlessly hot-blooded, completely over-the-top spectacle that it is. If you can make that leap and ration yourself to 1-2 episodes per day, you can usually find Macross 7 at least halfway enjoyable. It's definitely not a show that's meant to be marathonned, and I'm inclined to suspect that that's the reason behind at least some of the more profoundly negative impressions of the series.

Oh, one thing I don't like M7 is that it divided us. If we Macrossers had united we might have defeated the Gundams.

Bah... there's plenty of divisions in the Gundam fandom as well. Just look at all the hate heaped on Gundam SEED by western fans... or Gundam Wing... or for that matter, Gundam ZZ.

[ff95gj]

In my experience, Macross 7 rarely goes over well with serious-minded people. It's the same type of show as Gurren Lagann or G Gundam where you have to suspend rationality for a while and just appreciate it for the crazy, pointlessly hot-blooded, completely over-the-top spectacle that it is. If you can make that leap and ration yourself to 1-2 episodes per day, you can usually find Macross 7 at least halfway enjoyable. It's definitely not a show that's meant to be marathonned, and I'm inclined to suspect that that's the reason behind at least some of the more profoundly negative impressions of the series.

M7... It's just not my cup of tea. Even if it's a standalone anime. The fact that it belongs to the Macross universe makes it more difficult to swallow. It's not about rationality.

I love Gurren Lagann for its hot-bloodness. Kamina is the only male character of whom I own a figure. G Gundam, while I don't really like it, I can appreciate as a different Gundam show. Although I still don't deal well with the concept of Sailor Moon Gundam.

I can take space monsters like giant aliens (who can shrink nicely through a cylinder) and Vajras (who share a communication thought network) easily. I actually like the ideas. OK, even space whales are fine. But space-flying alien vampires, music energy shield, space monster designs from the 70s (the huge protodevilns)... <comments removed after a second thought>

And I didn't marathon M7 BTW (2 episodes shouldn't be counted as marathon I guess). I've learnt not to marathon videos in one go. You actually miss a lot of things because you cannot take in everything at once.

Bah... there's plenty of divisions in the Gundam fandom as well. Just look at all the hate heaped on Gundam SEED by western fans... or Gundam Wing... or for that matter, Gundam ZZ.

Let's face it: if they don't divide at all, we Macrossers won't stand a chance.

P.S. I can't wait to get my Robot Spirit RX-78 and Sananju coming this month.

[Seto Kaiba]

M7... It's just not my cup of tea. Even if it's a standalone anime. The fact that it belongs to the Macross universe makes it more difficult to swallow. It's not about rationality.

Oh, I'll agree it's not for everyone... it doesn't exactly rank high on my list of favorite Macross titles, but I revised my opinion of it upward slightly after getting my hands on a higher quality fansub.

It's just my take on what you've said, but it sounds like at least part of the reason you dislike the Macross 7 series is a matter of rationality... specifically, trying to reconcile the goofier aspects of it (Protodeviln, sound energy, spirita) with the somewhat more serious titles that make up the rest of the continuity. If that's the case, then I certainly can't blame you... I have that same problem with it. Liking it or not liking it doesn't make anyone any more or less of a Macross fan... but I do think that people should give it a fair chance and decide for themselves instead of letting other people tell them "No! It's horrible! Skip it!", as I said in the early pages of this thread.

The thing about marathoning the series... well, in my experience the first instinct of anyone who downloads a series in batch form is to dive right in and watch as much as they can. There are a lot of shows where you can get away with that, but Macross 7 is definitely not one of them. The first twenty or so episodes are so monotonous and samey they doing that is probably the single fastest way to learn to hate the show.

[ff95gj]

Oh, I'll agree it's not for everyone... it doesn't exactly rank high on my list of favorite Macross titles, but I revised my opinion of it upward slightly after getting my hands on a higher quality fansub.

It's just my take on what you've said, but it sounds like at least part of the reason you dislike the Macross 7 series is a matter of rationality... specifically, trying to reconcile the goofier aspects of it (Protodeviln, sound energy, spirita) with the somewhat more serious titles that make up the rest of the continuity. If that's the case, then I certainly can't blame you... I have that same problem with it. Liking it or not liking it doesn't make anyone any more or less of a Macross fan... but I do think that people should give it a fair chance and decide for themselves instead of letting other people tell them "No! It's horrible! Skip it!", as I said in the early pages of this thread.

The thing about marathoning the series... well, in my experience the first instinct of anyone who downloads a series in batch form is to dive right in and watch as much as they can. There are a lot of shows where you can get away with that, but Macross 7 is definitely not one of them. The first twenty or so episodes are so monotonous and samey they doing that is probably the single fastest way to learn to hate the show.

I would say that I don't really mind how irrational the content gets... Just present it right. It sounds stupid that the story line says "giant aliens don't want to go to war after hearing a song", but it pulled out great for me. It sounds okay that "protoculture left some hi-tech stuffs on earth and became legends and relics", but I don't like it when seeing flying stones and the birdman shooting lasers around.

** And this is entirely personal opinion whether it is presented "right" or not. So people are not right or wrong in liking or disliking M7. Or M0 for that matter. **

I must have to agree though, if everything goes "rational", we would have less argument. It would be boring though. I like the Gundam series with Newtypes better.

Personally I think marathoning is a waste (did it in my youth when I had not many things else to do). It's like swallowing a nice dinner in 30 secs.

[s001]

I choose Robotech over Macross 7 any day of the week. Go.

[peter]

I choose Robotech over Macross 7 any day of the week. Go.

Uh, yeah, Robotech Minmei makes me want to go on a killing spree. Rick Hunter makes me want to eat my gun after it's all said and done.

Edited November 18, 2010 by peter

[shiroth]

I choose Robotech over Macross 7 any day of the week. Go.

I never thought i'd see the day..

[s001]

Wow, looks like I killed this topic hehehehehehehehe sorry.

[Noyhauser]

Got the same feeling too. If one does not like M7:

- You don't know enough about the Macross series to understand that M7 is a well-implemented, if not perfect, embodiment of the Macross messages (teachings).

- You cannot accept new things.

- You are of the minority. <implication: your opinion is considered statistical outsiders - meaning you are just abnormal>

- It was a big hit in Japan. You said you don't like it? <implication: you don't have taste>

- You don't have taste. <explicitly>

Baseline: it's your own fault if you don't like M7.

Oh, one thing I don't like M7 is that it divided us. If we Macrossers had united we might have defeated the Gundams.

Feeling excluded for not liking Macross 7 is kinda laughable considering the history of this board. Basically four years ago you were personally ridiculed if you liked Macross 7 on Macrossworld. Here's a good example, and just imagine that this was the rule rather than the exception. There were people like me and keith who said, wait a second, there are some good points about it (although I'm not blind to its pretty obvious deficiencies.)

Personally, I really couldn't care less if you like it or don't. Its not for everybody. But don't expect me or others to cry that you feel "marginalized"

Edited November 20, 2010 by Noyhauser

[sketchley]

Feeling excluded for not liking Macross 7 is kinda laughable considering the history of this board. Basically four years ago you were personally ridiculed if you liked Macross 7 on Macrossworld. Here's a good example, and just imagine that this was the rule rather than the exception. There were people like me and keith who said, wait a second, there are some good points about it (although I'm not blind to its pretty obvious deficiencies.)

Personally, I really couldn't care less if you like it or don't. Its not for everybody. But don't expect me or others to cry that you feel "marginalized"

Correction, 2 years ago. Maybe even sooner. From my experiences, the last time I saw someone being ridiculed for liking Macross 7 wasn't very long before the start of the "The MW rewatches M7 together Thread", which started just over a year ago.

So, yeah. Laughable & no tears, either.

[ff95gj]

Hmm... I wasn't here 4 years ago, and history doesn't affect me, but current affairs do.

And you had every right to pant that it is perfectly okay to love M7. And I see that you do know your rights.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm sorry if what I'm going to say has been said, but I didn't feel like dozing off whilst reading 5 pgs of text.

I am a Macross fan, no denying that, However, I got my introduction to mecha through MechWarrior 2. Needless to say I came to view mecha as war machines and was given to a vision of Americanized mechs. I learned that FASA had taken from Robotech, which had in turn taken from Macross. I've not seen Robotech, nor do I think I really want to now that I've seen Macross. Gundam brought me to the world of anime at some point between my first intro to mecha, and first seeing Macross. I have seen all the Macross series in multiple, except for frontier.

Ok, put on the flame retardant skivvies because here we go...

I liked Macross Zero, the battles were intense and the story writing was good. The bird man thing was kinda hokey and unbelievable from the human perspective, however, having taken world history, cultural anthropology, and philosophy, I have been aware of Extraterrestrial Intervention theories for a while, not implausible, (also in-universe they are proven true.) I have the VF-0A toy, and holds a prominent place on my shelf. I genuinely cared about the characters, and we got to see the genesis for the variable fighter program. All in all, good prequel. I recommend it.

SDF Macross. Oh where do I begin. The love triangle, the war story, the VF-1! Classic. When I saw SDF:M the only thing I had to compare it to was Gundam. Specifically 08th MS Team. I loved that Gundam show, SDF:M was much better. The Main theme I got from Macross in its entirety is that culture is our strength, our collective Identity drives us to overcome adversity. That is most prominently shown in SDF:M. Again the character writing was good, I cared about them. The love triangles within a love triangle (or the triforce of love as I call it) was a neat departure from the ordinary ho hum Hollywood melodrama. Hikaru loved Minmay and Kaifun loved Minmay, but Misa loved Hikaru and Kaifun, but Hikaru also loved Misa, that was complicated and illustrated a complexity in human relationships I had never perceived before ( I have since). The battles were well done for such early anime, and the mecha was really sweet, It combined two of my favorite things: Aircraft and Mecha. It did borrow from some earlier science fiction, but it was done at the conceptual level for the setting, which is tasteful and acceptable. I loved it so much I got the dvds. Also I have Four VF-1 Toys, 2 toynami 1/100s, a Ver 2 Yamato 1/60 Skull One with fast packs, and the original Yamato VF-1A TRU 10th anniversary, all occupy places of honor on my shelves.

DYRL, Retelling of the tv series, with some minor plot inconsistencies, but survivable. Liked it.

Macross Plus. First Macross I had seen in entirety, I enjoyed the setting and story. Basic Macross Building blocks, Giant transforming robot mechs, love triangle, epic battles. The Contract competition was a nice change of pace for me. The YF-19 and YF-21 stole the show, but my favorite was the simple, and humble, VF-11B. I was unable to obtain an 11 bravo, instead I have an 11 charlie on my desk at my right hand if you will. Not much else to say other than, how is it that the USAF is trying to do exactly what the X9 was supposed to do in M+, when Kawamori-san already proved that unmanned fighters will be vastly inferior to manned fighters (more on that some other time)?

If Y'all will bear with me a bit longer...

Macross 7. Decent sequel. Max was my favorite character from SDF:M. I related to him the most (no homo). I was upset that he was promoted out of his job, but we still got to see him do some ass kicking before the end of the series. That said, the dogfights and action sequences were good. The awkwardness of Gamlin Kizaki was good for quite a few laughs, though the romance between a pilot, (24 yrs old based on rank of LTjg at the beginning), and a 15yr old girl, was odd to my western sensibilities. Love triangles abound, not surprising given the length of the show. The Mecha were the coolest I had seen. I have a VF-11C as previously mentioned, and will buy a VF-17S when/if Yamato releases one. The Song energy thing was hinky, as was the rampant pacifism. As a student of war, I can't imagine any other way to defeat an enemy other than to crush his ability and will to fight. If they had integrated the song energy in a different way that didn't involve the "Super Sentai Sound Force" many fans may have related better. None the less, still enjoyed it, and it was a good way to kill a couple of days off being sick.

Finally Macross Frontier. I did not particularly enjoy the gundam seed syndrome the show suffered from. The adolescent ace pilots and the Vajra. Fighting space bugs with a variable fighter was not what I had hoped for when I saw the first episode. Alto was too emo and angsty, and the only reason I continued to watch was because I liked see Ozma Lee and Klan Klan kicking ass, and to see Alto get his ass handed to him. I waited in vain, because it never really happened. The Mecha were ok, they had a disturbing amount of kibble and and odd bulk to the skeletal looking fighter. I have the 1/72 Bandai VF-25F ( at least I think it's 1/72, if it is, it's as big as my vf0, so that's a big friggin ship), and I find the way it transforms to be weird and ungainly. I leave it in fighter mode most of the time because of the wierdness of the design. Frontier too suffers from the Super Sentai syndrome. Also, I HATE PRIVATE MILITARY CONTRACTORS. I do not identify with them, and despise the concept. The fact that the heroes are all mercs rubs me the wrong way.

Final Tally:

MZero-Good

SDF:M-Good

DYRL?-meh

M+-Good

M7-Fun

MF-get surgery before you watch it, you'll need the pain meds

[Keith]

Gundam SEED Syndrom? Well maybe Brera a bit, but everything else was just updated Macross TV.

[Jeff J]

I think any time you watch anime or play Japanese-developed video games, you run a pretty good risk of having to suffer through "Gundam Seed syndrome" in one way or another. Macross Plus is the only project in the franchise that features ace pilots who come anywhere close to corresponding to real life ace pilot ages. Guld was about 26 and Isamu was about 25. I think Basara, at 21, was the oldest main pilot and/or protagonist of any other Macross series. Everyone else was in his or her teens. You get (IMO) the unfortunate situation in which you have teenagers, with teenager problems, inhabiting teenager bodies, operating war machines out in heavy combat. SDF Macross sort of hides that problem because besides hanging out with schoolgirl Minmay, Hikaru doesn't really live a teenager's life and could pass as a regular young military recruit. Macross 7 kind of avoids the issue because of Gamlin's professionalism, but falls back on that problem because Basara is impractically emo and Mylene is obviously a kid. I suppose Frontier is probably the worst in that regard because when the protagonists aren't in combat or singing, they're in high school, so I can agree to your point.

Here's a quick aside about the abundance of teenage protagonists in Japanese action projects. Square Enix had an infamous presentation demonstrating the differences between Western and Japanese action heroes (P.S. Sankaku Complex isn't necessarily PG content; possibly NSFW). In fact, Square Enix was so concerned with the difference in demand from the respective audiences, they won't even release one of the games in the Nier series because the hero isn't manly enough (Sankaku Complex, again).

Edited November 22, 2010 by Jeff J

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, put on the flame retardant skivvies because here we go...

Okay... that kind of warning isn't a good sign.

I liked Macross Zero, the battles were intense and the story writing was good. [...] I genuinely cared about the characters, and we got to see the genesis for the variable fighter program. All in all, good prequel. I recommend it.

Huh... that's a rare one for me, I'm not used to seeing someone praise the story and the characters when they talk about Macross Zero. The usual opinion I've seen (and agree with) is that Macross Zero is great mecha porn but mediocre in all other regards, with a severely disjointed narrative. Still, to each their own.

The YF-19 and YF-21 stole the show, but my favorite was the simple, and humble, VF-11B.

Huh... you're the second person I've seen say that in 24 hours. Weird... but totally understandable. I, for one, wish the VF-11 had gotten a lot more love in the main Macross continuity. It's a little plain, but it's a nice design that adds something new to its classic roots.

The awkwardness of Gamlin Kizaki was good for quite a few laughs, though the romance between a pilot, (24 yrs old based on rank of LTjg at the beginning), and a 15yr old girl, was odd to my western sensibilities.

Ah, yes. You can't really measure the UN Spacy by the same yardstick as other, real-world militaries. In point of fact, Gamlin is actually only 19 years old. He joined the UN Spacy at age 15, and completed the three year pilot training sequence in only two years.

The Song energy thing was hinky, as was the rampant pacifism. As a student of war, I can't imagine any other way to defeat an enemy other than to crush his ability and will to fight. If they had integrated the song energy in a different way that didn't involve the "Super Sentai Sound Force" many fans may have related better. None the less, still enjoyed it, and it was a good way to kill a couple of days off being sick.

Pretty typical reaction, all told..

Finally Macross Frontier. I did not particularly enjoy the gundam seed syndrome the show suffered from. The adolescent ace pilots and the Vajra.

Uh... you might want to take stock of the rest of Macross before you level that particular complaint. Quite a few of Macross's leading characters are "adolescent ace pilots". Hikaru was only 16 at the start of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, as was Max, while Kakizaki was 17 and Milia was 15. Macross II's Hibiki and Sylvie were both 17 during the OVA. Macross 7's Gamlin was 19. Macross Zero's Shin Kudo was only 18. Age-wise, the pilots in Macross Frontier were unremarkable. Alto and Michael were 17 and Brera was 19. Guys in their 20s, like Guld, Isamu, and Basara, are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the main cast.

Alto was too emo and angsty, and the only reason I continued to watch was because I liked see Ozma Lee and Klan Klan kicking ass, and to see Alto get his ass handed to him. I waited in vain, because it never really happened.

Forgive me for saying so, but that's a rather odd complaint for someone who was "brought into the world of anime" by Gundam. Gundam's downright famous for its angsty teenage pilots in most of its universes... and I think it's safe to say that in terms of emoness or angst, Alto has nothing on the likes of a young Amuro Ray, Camille Bidan, Judau Ashta (in the second half), Uso Ebbing, Kira Yamato, Relina Peacecraft, Saji Crossroad, etc.

and I find the way it transforms to be weird and ungainly. I leave it in fighter mode most of the time because of the wierdness of the design.

It's an odd one, that's to be sure... an attempt to move away from the passively stealthy designs of previous shows, and odder for being a VF-1 that transforms like a VF-19.

Frontier too suffers from the Super Sentai syndrome. Also, I HATE PRIVATE MILITARY CONTRACTORS. I do not identify with them, and despise the concept. The fact that the heroes are all mercs rubs me the wrong way.

Not sure how Frontier could be said to suffer from "super sentai syndrome"... but I do agree on the subject of PMCs. They were trendy as heroes for a while, now they're trendy as villains... particularly in video games. It irked me to see the New UN Spacy portrayed as barely competent while swaggering mercenaries with all the latest toys wade nigh-invincibly through combat. It's hardly a realistic depiction of PMCs either... SMS is more like MITHRIL from Full Metal Panic! than anything.

[azrael]

...but I didn't feel like dozing off whilst reading 5 pgs of text.

See, I tell you people, the age of Facebook/Twitter and texting has ruined people's ability to sit and read.

The Song energy thing was hinky, as was the rampant pacifism. As a student of war, I can't imagine any other way to defeat an enemy other than to crush his ability and will to fight.

How is that pacifism? Weaponizing Song Energy did crush their ability and will to fight. Every time the Protodeviln were hit by it, they ran away.

Alto was too emo and angsty,

As are most of the protagonists in Gundam.

[anime52k8]

Also, I HATE PRIVATE MILITARY CONTRACTORS. I do not identify with them, and despise the concept. The fact that the heroes are all mercs rubs me the wrong way.

I'm just going to come right out and say it; this is probably the dumbest thing you could possibly have your panties in a twist about. Tell me, do you get all indigent and bent out of shape about captain harlock because it glorifies and romanticizes piracy?

It's a stupid title that has no relation to any real world equivalent, get over it. From a narrative stand point they're the same as every other Paramilitary organization that shows up in giant mecha anime to save the day because the regular military is too incompetent/corrupt to do their jobs.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm just going to come right out and say it; this is probably the dumbest thing you could possibly have your panties in a twist about. Tell me, do you get all indigent and bent out of shape about captain harlock because it glorifies and romanticizes piracy?

Eh... seeing as Valkyrie Driver's profile lists him as a current serviceman in the US Air Force, his attitude toward private military contractors is understandable enough to me. Most of the currently active and retired soldiers I'm acquainted with tend to take a dim view of PMCs as a whole. In light of all the problems with Blackwater, I don't think it's hard to see why they dislike them either... nor is it that hard to understand why Valkyrie Driver would find it irritating that Macross Frontier's protagonists belong to a Mithril-esque private army whose employees are openly contemptuous of real soldiers while they swagger around nigh-invincibly in next-gen mecha. Now, I'm no soldier, but I've had enough close friends in the service where I can definitely understand how he might find that irritating.

It's entirely a matter of his viewpoint... that you don't understand it doesn't make him wrong or unreasonable.

It's a stupid title that has no relation to any real world equivalent, get over it. From a narrative stand point they're the same as every other Paramilitary organization that shows up in giant mecha anime to save the day because the regular military is too incompetent/corrupt to do their jobs.

In most cases, the paramilitary organization who shows up to save the day when conventional forces just won't cut it is a either a wholly secret organization operating outside the law or some form of government sponsored enterprise. SMS may have a contract with the Frontier Government, but they sure as hell aren't answerable to it... just look at the Macross Frontier movie, where they blow off the government's objections and send all their forces (incl. a carrier partly owned by the government) on a rescue mission to save a potential enemy over the objections of of the fleet's government and the New UN Spacy because some civilian cut them a big check.

[nexxstrait]

How is that pacifism? Weaponizing Song Energy did crush their ability and will to fight. Every time the Protodeviln were hit by it, they ran away.

Well. brainwashed humans simply awoke, and protodevlin:

1) fell in love

2) were annoyed to death. Truth is, in fact, that he merely crushed their ability to listen (to his songs). Since he didn't bother stopping and they were not able to hit him with guns, only thing to do was to run away.

[Keith]

In most cases, the paramilitary organization who shows up to save the day when conventional forces just won't cut it is a either a wholly secret organization operating outside the law or some form of government sponsored enterprise. SMS may have a contract with the Frontier Government, but they sure as hell aren't answerable to it... just look at the Macross Frontier movie, where they blow off the government's objections and send all their forces (incl. a carrier partly owned by the government) on a rescue mission to save a potential enemy over the objections of of the fleet's government and the New UN Spacy because some civilian cut them a big check.

To be fair, there's more going on behind the scenes there than meets the eye. According to Kawamori, the way the NUNS work, is that they are a govermnment military to the Frontier "state" fleet, or something to that effect. Bilra funded the Frontier fleet. Bilra Funded the SMS. He clearly had major string pull on both sides, at least in the series.

[Keith]

Well. brainwashed humans simply awoke, and protodevlin:

1) fell in love

2) were annoyed to death. Truth is, in fact, that he merely crushed their ability to listen (to his songs). Since he didn't bother stopping and they were not able to hit him with guns, only thing to do was to run away.

If you're going to be intentionally ignorant, there's no point in you discussing this at all. Song energy/spiritia itself had nothing to do with singing itself. It's the natural energy given off by all living things. Anima Spiritia is the rawest/purest form of said energy, and is radiated by hot blooded passion. The protodevelin subisded on the energy of other living biengs, and couldn't digest the hot blooded anima spiritia. They understood that endlessly feeding on all living things in our universe, would result in the extinction of themselves, in addition to all other life. And as such, Basara showed them the only logical conclusion to their dilemma, to learn how to produce their own energy, making them 100% self sufficient beings.

The overall message of Macross 7, is what do you do when no matter what, your enemy has a bigger badder gun/bomb than you do.

[Seto Kaiba]

To be fair, there's more going on behind the scenes there than meets the eye. According to Kawamori, the way the NUNS work, is that they are a govermnment military to the Frontier "state" fleet, or something to that effect. Bilra funded the Frontier fleet. Bilra Funded the SMS. He clearly had major string pull on both sides, at least in the series.

Oh, I'm well aware of that... but while there's no denying that Richard Bilra probably has a significant influence on the Frontier government as the fleet's sponsor and SMS's owner, he and his little private army still ought to be answerable to people who contracted with them in the first place.

Mind you, in the series they at least make one or two token efforts to establish that SMS is answerable to the Frontier government and the New UN Spacy. They briefly mention how they're testing the latest VF-25 for the military and how there were issues with the government that needed to be resolved for SMS to be allowed to launch the Macross Quarter. We never see Bilra pull strings or going over the president's head... and later on he's bowing to the president's authority when they integrate SMS into the New UN Spacy. Even so, SMS gets rather remarkable latitude in its operations... they never seem to need the military or government's approval, they just do what they bloody well want. Their disregard for authority reaches absurd levels in the movie, as they launch a rescue mission over the objections of the government and military... to rescue a fleet (correctly) believed to be responsible for the Vajra attacks that have cost hundreds of lives... using a ship that's at least partially government property... and all at the behest of a private citizen who's under investigation for espionage. I can't really think of a way for that to get significantly more irresponsible.

It'd be one thing if SMS were a super-secret "allies of justice" type outfit, or even some kind of special forces outside the authority of individual colonial governments... but the story makes SMS out to be a private military contractor that repeatedly blows off the wishes and directives of its client government with impunity. It's only natural that someone in the armed forces would find the way Macross Frontier dismisses real soldiers as uniformly incompetent, cowardly, and incapable of matching the efforts of a PMC staff they probably outnumber over 1000 to 1... never mind that the depiction of PMCs is so far removed from the facts that it would almost be easier to believe Bilra telling a robot to find "five teenagers with attitude".

(Don't get me wrong, I love Macross Frontier... I just don't like the way it treats the military or the way SMS is so openly dismissive of real soldiers)

Edited November 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

If you're going to be intentionally ignorant, there's no point in you discussing this at all. Song energy/spiritia itself had nothing to do with singing itself. It's the natural energy given off by all living things. Anima Spiritia is the rawest/purest form of said energy, and is radiated by hot blooded passion. The protodevelin subisded on the energy of other living biengs, and couldn't digest the hot blooded anima spiritia. They understood that endlessly feeding on all living things in our universe, would result in the extinction of themselves, in addition to all other life. And as such, Basara showed them the only logical conclusion to their dilemma, to learn how to produce their own energy, making them 100% self sufficient beings.

The overall message of Macross 7, is what do you do when no matter what, your enemy has a bigger badder gun/bomb than you do.

I guess the word "irony" is lost to you, but whatever

[valkyriechild]

Nevermind about PMC, i do not even understand how can a company make money(does money even exist in macross?) from whatever kind of economy that can possibly works inside that giga colony ship.

From my viewpoint the only way a community can work in that confined space is suppose to be military life. No market, no money, no economy, no profit making. Everything is rationed.

But hey it is anime, and all i care is the song and space opera.

[Nicaragua]

Nevermind about PMC, i do not even understand how can a company make money(does money even exist in macross?) from whatever kind of economy that can possibly works inside that giga colony ship.

From my viewpoint the only way a community can work in that confined space is suppose to be military life. No market, no money, no economy, no profit making. Everything is rationed.

But hey it is anime, and all i care is the song and space opera.

Maybe it would be something along the lines of ownership or rights to real estate of the destination planet? So the SMS owners would be guaranteed ownership of export pipelines or a percentage of the planetary income for any minerals or resources found.

So in return for risking their butts on the front line for an unspecified amount of time (until they get there) then they get first dibs (or near the top of the list) when it comes to dishing out the premium bits of the new homestead.

Just a guess anyway.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Nicaragua

[Keith]

Oh, I'm well aware of that... but while there's no denying that Richard Bilra probably has a significant influence on the Frontier government as the fleet's sponsor and SMS's owner, he and his little private army still ought to be answerable to people who contracted with them in the first place.

I'm actually curious why this topic never comes up in regards to situation like the AEUG in relation to the TITANS/EFSF. Sure the NUNS hadn't reached the level of curruption that the EFSF did, but the gist I got is that they were on their way there. Actually, historically in Macross, the protagonists have almost always been somewhat rebellious against the main military force. Global didn't back down to the brass who told him to basically take his 50,000 survivors, and collectively fall on their swords. Isamu could have given less of a crap about anyone's orders. Max & Exedor seem to have played a bit fast & loose with their following of UNS rules, and Roy, Shin & Edgar all peformed a mini coup just to launch. Putting things into that context, it's actually not much of a surprise that Frontier's heroes ar already apathetic about standard military channels, and don't give much of a care for their procedures.

I don't want to get itno the political/psychological aspects of this, but more likely than not this is still Japanese cultural fallout over how their govermnent/miltary handled WWII. And taking it into that context, I don't think U.S. military/fans should take the situation as spitting in the face of military proper in general, but specifically currupt military practices that don't take their peoples best interest to heart. I can't really think of an anime series off the top of my head, where the "heroes" didn't butt heads against their proper military structure. Evangelion, FMP, Votoms, EVERY Gundam series ever, Yamato, SRW, etc, etc, etc. If anything, Japan's anime interpretation of the U.S. military is somewhat positive. Of course I speak of the Gamilus empire in Yamato. Sure they were (initially) the bad guys. And sure they were taken down by the Yamato. But they were shown to be a very honorable methotical strong/smart foe.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Keith

[Killer Robot]

I'm actually curious why this topic never comes up in regards to situation like the AEUG in relation to the TITANS/EFSF. Sure the NUNS hadn't reached the level of curruption that the EFSF did, but the gist I got is that they were on their way there. Actually, historically in Macross, the protagonists have almost always been somewhat rebellious against the main military force. Global didn't back down to the brass who told him to basically take his 50,000 survivors, and collectively fall on their swords. Isamu could have given less of a crap about anyone's orders. Max & Exedor seem to have played a bit fast & loose with their following of UNS rules, and Roy, Shin & Edgar all peformed a mini coup just to launch. Putting things into that context, it's actually not much of a surprise that Frontier's heroes ar already apathetic about standard military channels, and don't give much of a care for their procedures.

I don't want to get itno the political/psychological aspects of this, but more likely than not this is still Japanese cultural fallout over how their govermnent/miltary handled WWII. And taking it into that context, I don't think U.S. military/fans should take the situation as spitting in the face of military proper in general, but specifically currupt military practices that don't take their peoples best interest to heart. I can't really think of an anime series off the top of my head, where the "heroes" didn't butt heads against their proper military structure. Evangelion, FMP, Votoms, EVERY Gundam series ever, Yamato, SRW, etc, etc, etc. If anything, Japan's anime interpretation of the U.S. military is somewhat positive. Of course I speak of the Gamilus empire in Yamato. Sure they were (initially) the bad guys. And sure they were taken down by the Yamato. But they were shown to be a very honorable methotical strong/smart foe.

I'd say Max and Exedore went beyond playing fast and loose and into having to carefully disregard a UNS upper command that seemed willing and eager to order the whole fleet to their deaths, and this while struggling with heartless and glory-seeking officers within the fleet. Anyway, this all is spot on: Macross has always been about the main heroic characters having to deal with the ranks above the headline ship's captain being filled with inept, warmongering, political-jockeying, and overall short-sighted superiors who mostly get in the way of them resolving the real threat. By and large the protagonists have been well aware of this, though how willing they are to speak their minds has been varied, as has their willingness to I'm not really sure where the idea of many fans that the military hierarchy is normally good and respectable comes from any more than I understand the idea that it is or ever has been a franchise mostly about serious military drama. While Macross romanticizes fighting for what you believe in and even enjoying a good fight, it's always made clear villains of those who seek wars, or would rather crush an enemy than understand it. Likewise, it's always made clear that the heroes' side has no shortage of such people and that they need struggled against as much as the enemy.

As for Frontier's unique interpretation of this, a few things. SMS's status as a PMC did change some things, but in the series at least less than some make out. Would it really have been that much different if they were an elite fleet detachment that did most of the scouting, and because of this were more seasoned and better equipped than the forces guarding the fleet itself? Since that's exactly what they were, and all the more so when they were officially folded into NUNS in episode 6 or so. Or if Bilrer was a desk admiral on Island 1 that Wilder answered to, and who gave quiet orders to leave the fleet and investigate because something was very wrong higher up? This also wouldn't be too out of place in Macross context. The movie changes things some, but I'll hold full analysis for after that storyline is over. If I recall, however, SMS hadn't been formally put under direct NUNS authority yet in the movie, had it?

I think it might stand out more that in Frontier, the Frontier fleet military was pretty clean. Underequipped and underprepared to start, this is true, but they were fighting and innovating and doing all they could clearly enough past that initial attack. If the protagonists did the heavy lifting in many engagements, this is largely because they're the protagonists - they got more done than all those faceless VF-11 squadrons on Macross 7, that's for sure. In Frontier, what was new was that the corruption, the conquest seeking, the short-sighted disregard for the good of the people, was due to a corruption in the civilian government, and further that it was not even someone arguably acting badly within legitimate authority, but assassination, betrayal, and a war deliberately engineered by agents of a foreign government. Frontier's military just didn't find out their civilian authority was corrupt until the last moment - and there they promptly acted to do the right thing. Was that Battle Frontier captain, for example a Global or Max? No - but his story role was more akin to that of the higher ups back home that were always in Global or Max's way, and next to them he feels like a pretty upright dude. The same holds true for "the military outside of the protagonists' particular chain of command" compared between the series.

As for the comment on extending this to other Japanese media, I'd take it a step broader than just military commentary and suggest that anime is so full of independent individualists willing to break orders and tradition in large part because Japan is a culture very much about order and tradition, and even for those mostly content with it, the fantasy of breaking free and doing your own thing is a pretty obvious one. All the more so when said rebellion ultimately can save the world. Not like Western media is lacking in it, especially that marketed to young people who deal with authority of schools, parents, and so on every day.

[valkyriechild]

Maybe it would be something along the lines of ownership or rights to real estate of the destination planet? So the SMS owners would be guaranteed ownership of export pipelines or a percentage of the planetary income for any minerals or resources found.

So in return for risking their butts on the front line for an unspecified amount of time (until they get there) then they get first dibs (or near the top of the list) when it comes to dishing out the premium bits of the new homestead.

Just a guess anyway.

It could be, so that means in the end it is all about capitalism is it not? which is a natural thing to be.

Preserving humanity and its culture are just politics after all.

But i still can not stop thinking that all the private organizations that rides along the fleet are unable to make any revenues until they find a habitable planet which then they can colonize and exploit. The longer the journey, the bigger the expenses and the risks would be.

Just like when an oil company surveying for oil deposit, lots of expenses but without any income.

My post seems to become off topic so i will stop here.

[frothymug]

I do want to point out that Colonel Millard was another example of someone who's gone through the same thing that the "brash and disrespectful" young soldiers do. Heck, even Global talks about how Admiral Hayase had to do some improvising of his own when he was just a young commander. The point is that many of the leaders in the military in Macross come from the same backgrounds as the series antagonists. You could just say that these "fly by the seat of their pants" characters are going to become the leaders of tomorrow because they can get sh!t done.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Not sure how Frontier could be said to suffer from "super sentai syndrome"... but I do agree on the subject of PMCs. They were trendy as heroes for a while, now they're trendy as villains... particularly in video games. It irked me to see the New UN Spacy portrayed as barely competent while swaggering mercenaries with all the latest toys wade nigh-invincibly through combat. It's hardly a realistic depiction of PMCs either... SMS is more like MITHRIL from Full Metal Panic! than anything.

Unlike MITHRIL, the SMS just had an air about it, that bugged me. MITHRIL was a bit too fantastic and functioned, as it seemed to me, more like a military organization, than SMS did. The "Super Sentai Syndrome" I refer to is based on how the "elite" SMS had to run out and save the day, while the regular troopers languished in incompetency. MITHRIL, was better equipped in FMP! but overall was as well trained as any professional military. SMS seemed to be somehow on that standard, while the regulars were shown as two cuts below the norm. The whole show seemed over exaggerated to me, and it was over the top to my taste, that's all I was trying to say, other than the PMC comment, But we can talk about that some other time.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Valkyrie Driver

[Keith]

Unlike MITHRIL, the SMS just had an air about it, that bugged me. MITHRIL was a bit too fantastic and functioned, as it seemed to me, more like a military organization, than SMS did. The "Super Sentai Syndrome" I refer to is based on how the "elite" SMS had to run out and save the day, while the regular troopers languished in incompetency. MITHRIL, was better equipped in FMP! but overall was as well trained as any professional military. SMS seemed to be somehow on that standard, while the regulars were shown as two cuts below the norm. The whole show seemed over exaggerated to me, and it was over the top to my taste, that's all I was trying to say, other than the PMC comment, But we can talk about that some other time.

That's not sentai dude.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That's not sentai dude.

granted not flamboyant, and maybe I over used the phrase, but still I found it irritating that SMS was portrayed as the only ones who could save the day. also, I guess the other thing I disliked about frontier, was the space bugs, I think I forgot to mention that.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Valkyrie Driver

[Noyhauser]

Unlike MITHRIL, the SMS just had an air about it, that bugged me. MITHRIL was a bit too fantastic and functioned, as it seemed to me, more like a military organization, than SMS did. The "Super Sentai Syndrome" I refer to is based on how the "elite" SMS had to run out and save the day, while the regular troopers languished in incompetency. MITHRIL, was better equipped in FMP! but overall was as well trained as any professional military. SMS seemed to be somehow on that standard, while the regulars were shown as two cuts below the norm. The whole show seemed over exaggerated to me, and it was over the top to my taste, that's all I was trying to say, other than the PMC comment, But we can talk about that some other time.

I think that might be partly because this is your first entry into the 2050+ timeframe. The backstory is that UN Spacy is going through a decay in its political and military structures and is no longer the effective organization it once was. Its why they are now called the New UN Spacy. You saw it in Digital Mission VFX 2, where a corporate/criminal syndicate hijacks a macross battleship and almost brings down the government... its only a crack pilot team that actually saves the day. Political decay is alluded to in Macross Plus (both visually in the opening fight sequence and by Willard when talking about Super Nova's mission profile) as well.In Frontier, its stated that UN Spacy is a bureaucratic mess and its cheaper to get SMS to undertake a mission than the military.

If you're looking for an academic link to this, think about Mancur Olson's Rise and Decline of Nations. Consider a state that has gone to the point where the vested power groups become so powerful that they basically stifle growth and innovation... I think thats what 2060 in macross looks like.