UN Female pilots in Macross universe

[nexxstrait]

Ok, I was just making some considerations on the presence (or rather absence) of female pilots and Ship captains officers in the Macross universe in the UN forces.

Starting from the beginning:

- SDF Macross: there seem to be no UN female pilots until Mirya shows up (and she is an ace). Misa is, to date, the only female Ship Captain we know of for sure*

- Macross II: Female pilots are the standard but there seems to be no female Ship Captains

- Macross Plus: no female pilots or captains

- Macross 7: no female pilots except Mylene in a special unit and Mirya (again)

- Macross 7 Dynamite: no UN female pilots or captains, as Liza belongs to Zolan Patrol defence unit

- Macross 0: while we have at least one female marine, there are no UN female pilots or captains. Nora belongs to the Anti Unification movement

- Macross Frontier: no NUNS female pilots (Michael's sister excluded) or captains. Kanaria, Klan and her team belong to a private contractor. In the comic adaptation, however, the VF171 squadron captain is female.

- I'll throw in VFX2 as it seems canon: there are two female pilots.

Paradoxically, Zentradi seem to be much more gender-balanced than terrans. In SDF Macross Laplamiz not only is a ship captain but she wears the same unifor as male ship captains (see Kamjin). Maybe because they lost culture and have stepped out of their roles (in the authors' idea)? I hope not, but evidence is against this: Laplamiz on earth has cut her uniform to resemble a skirt and the terrible ace pilot Mirya, seconds after being micronized, begins: 1) to cry 2) wants to get married (!). Come on!!

Why is there such a gap between sexes? I can understand SDF Macross, it was a sign of the times. But given that the other Macross shows are set in the future, it seems absurd that there is no real evidence of UN forces female pilots being the standard and not an exception (Macross II aside) or that women occupy pivotal command posts in the military from 2013 onwards. The fact that they still wear skirts in 2059 says it all. Are the UN gender biased or is it just the authors being chauvinists?I'd like that Kawamori went the Macross II way and gave us a more mixed cast of fighter pilots, instead of having the main female roles relegated to the would-be-housewife that must be rescued by "real men".

*(Kim Kabirof being the unknown one)

Edited October 14, 2010 by nexxstrait

[BlueMax]

I guess the country of origin of the the meta-series gives a clue about this phenomenon.

From what I see/ intepret, japan is still pretty much a chauvanistic society, and some professions/ jobs are just not traditionally done by females or under-represented.

Even out of Japan, I guess alot of countries still have varying degress of chauvinism and traditional gender roles to play.

[anime52k8]

I think the reason you don't see more evidence of women in important positions throughout macross is because outside of the core cast of characters, the people making the shows just don't give a damn about the background characters and how they're presented. Really, beyond the core group of pilots and the single bridge crew that the show focuses on, none of the officers and crews and pilots we see running around and getting blown up have any meaning or importance other than to fill space behind the main characters.

think about it this way. out of the hundreds of ships and thousands of fighters that make up a feet, how many of situations do we actually get to see or hear conclusively whether or not an individual is actually male or female? (hint: not many)

Now of course when we do see or hear a pilot or ship captain they're typically male, but that has little to do with purposeful sexism and actively trying to oppress women and enforce conventional gender norms. Really it's because the audience is less likely to pay any notice to/give a sh*t about a male nondescript filler character than a female nondescript filler character.

As for the Central cast of characters, the reason we always see male pilots and female singers and the like is because Macross is an extremely formulaic show that Relies on a very specific Collection of archetypal characters. every show is built around having very specific characters interacting in very specific ways, and the show just wouldn't work the same way if you start trying to change that.

really that's one of the core problems with macross II. MacII tries to be unique by changing up the established cast lineup, and it ends up falling flat because the emotional connections between the characters aren't there anymore.

Edited October 13, 2010 by anime52k8

[anime52k8]

and another thing...

The comparison between humans and zentradi in terms of gender roles and gender equality is an interesting one. There's a definite and in all likelihood intentional level of Gender-neutrality depicted in zentradi society that isn't there in human society.

The way I see it, the Zentradi's depiction as lacking gender differentiation is meant to illustrate their lack of understanding of emotions, as they do not recognize or understand the emotional differences between men and women. furthermore this is a critical factor as to why they lack concepts of things like love; the don't have love because they have as a society repressed all their emotions.

Edited October 13, 2010 by anime52k8

[nexxstrait]

{part 2}

really that's one of the core problems with macross II. MacII tries to be unique by changing up the established cast lineup, and it ends up falling flat because the emotional connections between the characters aren't there anymore.

{continued...}

And that's exactly one of the reasons I like II. Also 7 marks the appearance of the first male singer that is also not a standard fighter pilot. I would gladly watch a Macross with a female leading pilot character which is not there just to tease juvenile fans with tight attires and exposed boobs, for a change.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, I was just making some considerations on the presence (or rather absence) of female pilots and officers in the Macross universe in the UN forces.

Actually... there's not nearly as absent as you think.

Also, not to split hairs or anything, but almost every female character who's in the military has held an officer rank. They might not be in command, but they're definitely officers by rank.

- SDF Macross: there seem to be no UN female pilots until Mirya shows up (and she is an ace). Misa is, to date, the only female Ship Captain we know of for sure*

Depending on how things pan out with Macross: the First, this may or may not remain the case... in any event, you have the bridge bunnies who all rank 2nd Lt. or better. The Macross's chief engineer presumably holds an officer rank since she's serving on a military ship.

- Macross II: Female pilots are the standard but there seems to be no female Ship Captains

In all fairness, we only ever see the bridge crew of one UN Spacy ship in Macross II: Lovers Again, unless you're counting the time Sylvie's squadron borrowed that rescue ship. Given the character design art, all of the bridge bunnies on the Gloria were officers too. Of course, we've also overlooked the canon prequels to Macross II, and the female pilots they contain. Macross 2036 had Komilia Maria Jenius as a VF pilot, squadron leader, and main character to boot. Likewise, Macross: Eternal Love Song had two female pilots in the main character's squadron, plus the female flight controller on the Prometheus.

- Macross Plus: no female pilots or captains

Because we only really saw two pilots up close...

- Macross 7: no female pilots except Mylene in a special unit and Mirya (again)

Uh... what about Mahara Fabrio in Macross 7 Trash? She was a pilot and a commissioned officer, and she was one of the pilots trained by Milia (like Gamlin). IIRC, she was also a squadron leader or held some other kind of leadership position in her formation. Not sure about that Zentradi girl who worked for Colonel Bacelon though. Sound Force is technically a UN Spacy unit as well, since even if its leader is an uncooperative berk their gear is still developed and issued by the UN Spacy.

- Macross 7 Dynamite: no UN female pilots or captains, as Liza belongs to Zolan Patrol defence unit

Considering the UN Forces stay pretty much uninvolved in this one, that's not surprising...

- Macross 0: while we have at least one female marine, there are no UN female pilots or captains. Nora belongs to the Anti Unification movement

Unclear, actually... officially, that female marine (Katie) was assigned to the VF-0 team, so she may could have been a pilot. After all, the Marine Corps do have their own pilots too.

- Macross Frontier: no NUNS female pilots (Michael's sister excluded) or captains. Kanaria, Klan and her team belong to a private contractor. In the comic adaptation, however, the VF171 squadron captain is female.

Considering we only actually get three NUNS pilots who have names, and only two of whom get faces to go with it, that's not that surprising either. Cathy Glass was a commissioned officer though... holding the rank of 1st Lt. and working in the Joint Chiefs of Staff office. There's actually been a recent development on this front, since Grace's co-conspirators refer to her by not only her name, but the military rank of Colonel as well.

- I'll throw in VFX2 as it seems canon: there are two female pilots.

IIRC, there were female pilots in VF-X as well... and Macross M3 too.

More to come.. had too many quote tags.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

Part 2.

Paradoxically, Zentradi seem to be much more gender-balanced than terrans.

Um... just pointing out the obvious, but that might have something to do with them having no knowledge of traditional gender roles or, for that matter, anything that doesn't involve shooting people and blowing things up...

Laplamiz on earth has cut her uniform to resemble a skirt and the terrible ace pilot Mirya, seconds after being micronized, begins: 1) to cry 2) wants to get married (!). Come on!!

Considering they had literally zero experience with culture beforehand... I think you're judging them way out of context and far too harshly. Remember, we're talking about people who quite literally had no knowledge of any life outside of war, so when they got introduced to culture it would have come as quite a shock and been quite legitimately the biggest thing since sliced bread in their eyes. You also seem to have overlooked many ponts in Milia's career where she held positions of great authority... after her marriage, she joined the UN Spacy as an officer (2nd Lt.) and served as an ordinary fighter pilot, special forces fighter pilot, test pilot, flight instructor, the executive officer of a starship, and eventually rose to the rank of Major before becoming the mayor of City-7... and she did all that while raising EIGHT kids.

Why is there such a gap between sexes?

As I've just illustrated, there's rather a lot less of one than you think... since your definition of "officer" seems to be a bit off, and you've missed a fair few canon titles that prominently feature female pilots and officers. Almost every military woman in Macross to date has been an officer, and there have been more than a few women who were also pilots.

I can understand SDF Macross, it was a sign of the times. But given that the other Macross shows are set in the future, it seems absurd that there is no real evidence of UN forces female pilots being the standard and not an exception (Macross II aside) or that women occupy pivotal command posts in the military from 2013 onwards.

This would be a viable complaint if we weren't limited to a tiny slice of Macross's universe... we can't claim to have a complete picture of the UN Forces since most of Macross is set on colony ships out in the galactic boonies or in relatively small, self-contained events that don't involve a lot of people directly. To be blunt, there's no evidence that there aren't lots of women in the service and holding high-ranking positions. We obviously have at least one major exception in the most recent Macross title... you are, of course, also glossing over women in civilian positions of authority, like various concert promoters and managers, the Mayor of City-7, etc. The problem is you're drawing a false conclusion based on a VERY limited sample population, much of which is drawn from Macross shows where soldiers don't take center stage...

The fact that they still wear skirts in 2059 says it all. Are the UN gender biased or is it just the authors being chauvinists?

Or could it be that not every sci-fi series set in the future has to establish gender equality by the way people dress? It's not like the species is going to abandon conventional notions of gender roles and human sexuality overnight just because Earth got shot up. There are plenty of women in positions of authority in Macross, and plenty willing to go out and get shot at... a disproportionate percentage of whom are held up as being much better at it than their male colleagues. Furthermore, you seem to have also overlooked that not all of the old variants of the UN Spacy uniform had the women wearing skirts... most prominent was the Macross M3 uniform, which was unisex and sported trousers instead. IIRC, Lucy Macmillan's uniform in Macross Plus was basically identical to Isamu's.

I think it's more than a little bit chauvinist to suggest that women can't be credible authority figures without forfeiting their sexuality in the bargain.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[anime52k8]

Also 7 marks the appearance of the first male singer that is also not a standard fighter pilot.

Honestly though, Basara isn't the main protagonist; he's barely even a character, He's a plot device. Basara's whole function is to run around singing and initiate interaction/development in and between other characters. The core of the show is still the relationship between Gamlin (the male fighter pilot) and Maylene (the the female singer).

[nexxstrait]

Honestly though, Basara isn't the main protagonist; he's barely even a character, He's a plot device. Basara's whole function is to run around singing and initiate interaction/development in and between other characters. The core of the show is still the relationship between Gamlin (the male fighter pilot) and Maylene (the the female singer).

Well, if Basara isn't the main character, then Macross 7 has no main character.

More on Seto Kaiba's observations (but it seems he didn't get my point at all) when I get the time to answer more in-depth.

Edited October 13, 2010 by nexxstrait

[Ghost Train]

Get back to the bridge/CIC woman!

[frothymug]

You mentioned the female marine in Zero in one of your posts. I think she is also in the scene when they take Mao and Nutuk up in the helicopter to the Asuka. She's the marine who is talking to Aries from the helicopter. See? Women are helping!

[Roy Focker]

Most woman pilots appear in manga and video games. In the animation they are very rare and tend to be more expectional pilots. Milia and Nora are aces. If they were average in skill they wouldn't be piloting at all.

How about male operators in the Macross universe? There was only two of them. One was gay and the other was Shammie's bitch.

[Seto Kaiba]

More on Seto Kaiba's observations (but it seems he didn't get my point at all) when I get the time to answer more in-depth.

Is that so?

Just my take on it, but to me it looks like you're complaining that Macross is sexist and that women are severely underrepresented among the line officers and pilots of the UN Forces based on incomplete information, several faulty conclusions, lack of context, and an apparent misunderstanding about what constitutes an "officer". I've already pointed out a number of women you overlooked who were officers, pilots, or both. In fact, I've already pointed out that virtually every female soldier we've seen in Macross has been an officer. Likewise, you missed several examples of a unisex uniform in Macross in your haste to complain about the uniform designs that have skirts. The real kicker is that you've somehow overlooked the simple fact that the only Macross series since the Macross Plus OVA to make UN Forces soldiers the focus of the story was Macross Zero. The stories of Macross 7, Macross Frontier, and their follow-ups all focus on the civilian population... with minimal representation from the UN Forces. You're drawing conclusions about gender representation in the UN Forces based, in large part, on shows where the military was not the focus of the story (or even prominently featured).

Of course, I could also be lazy and point out the obvious... that Macross is a show about giant fighting robots. It's going to be primarily targeted toward a male audience, so it makes sense for them to make many of the characters who are the focus of the show's action the same gender as the target audience so they'll be easier for the viewers to identify with...

Edited October 14, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

So I finally had the time to read your post and, as I said, you somehow missed my point or did not pay attention. But you are right in one thing. In the first sentece I made a reference to lack of female officers, but I meant mainly Ship Captains (as can be inferred from the rest of the post). It is true we don't see any female Admiral or UN Headquarters female outside of a spaceship's bridge. And it's pointless that you bring into the equation non UN characters since I was quite clear I only took UN into consideration (see Topic title). I simply stated the facts: from what is shown, there is a general lack of women pilots and ship captains in the "canon" Macross universe (as far as the Videogemes go, only VFX II - perhaps I? - are included in the chronology). When Global and Misa go to Alaska base, there are no women among the high UN gotha. When Max, as captain of Battle7, contact earth UN highest officers, again there is not one woman among them.

Or could it be that not every sci-fi series set in the future has to establish gender equality by the way people dress? It's not like the species is going to abandon conventional notions of gender roles and human sexuality overnight just because Earth got shot up. There are plenty of women in positions of authority in Macross, and plenty willing to go out and get shot at... a disproportionate percentage of whom are held up as being much better at it than their male colleagues. Furthermore, you seem to have also overlooked that not all of the old variants of the UN Spacy uniform had the women wearing skirts... most prominent was the Macross M3 uniform, which was unisex and sported trousers instead. IIRC, Lucy Macmillan's uniform in Macross Plus was basically identical to Isamu's.

In SDF Macross Hikaru clearly states what he thinks of women in the military, and the career of Misa seems to have been an harsh one. Again, she is an exception. And nowadays the trend is to have women and men in the military dressed all in the same way. Female ship operators in zero had skirts, too. I'll go further: in Macross we even have space suits (Klan) with high heels! If this isn't male sexual fantasy!

I think it's more than a little bit chauvinist to suggest that women can't be credible authority figures without forfeiting their sexuality in the bargain.

Now you're seeing things: were did I ever wrote this? And how is wearing a skirt making a woman more woman?

Of course, I could also be lazy and point out the obvious... that Macross is a show about giant fighting robots. It's going to be primarily targeted toward a male audience, so it makes sense for them to make many of the characters who are the focus of the show's action the same gender as the target audience so they'll be easier for the viewers to identify with...

Which doesn't exclude the possibility for males to wish for less gender role-stereotyped characters. I did like Macross II, but the main fighter pilot was female. Are you implying that II was less successful because the "fighter" was a woman and a male audience could not identify in a civilian reporter?

I guess I just wish some things in Macross were less "mainstream" or based on conventional stereotypes, so I apologize if I appear blunt, don't read what I wrote as a personal attack or anything like that!

Ok, time to go to bed!

Edited October 14, 2010 by nexxstrait

[Seto Kaiba]

But you are right in one thing. In the first sentece I made a reference to lack of female officers, but I meant mainly Ship Captains (as can be inferred from the rest of the post).

But that's inherently misleading... as being the captain or executive officer of a starship isn't the only command position an officer can hold. The other bridge operators are line officers too, and they have command authority over various aspects of the ship's operation... the most obvious of these being the flight controller. In point of fact, there are far more command positions beyond simply commanding a ship or fleet. Restricting it to merely female starship captains (or the absence thereof) based on an EXTREMELY limited sample population drawn in large measure from shows that don't prominently feature the military cast smacks of an attempt to distort the facts to support the conclusion you want.

it's pointless that you bring into the equation non UN characters since I was quite clear I only took UN into consideration (see Topic title).

But that's also extremely unfair to the female cast of Macross, since there are plenty of women in positions of civilian authority. You're arguing that Macross is sexist, and making a conscious effort to shift aside a sizable body of evidence to the contrary.

I simply stated the facts: from what is shown, there is a general lack of women pilots and ship captains in the "canon" Macross universe (as far as the Videogemes go, only VFX II - perhaps I? - are included in the chronology).

Gee... if that's the case, kindly explain the presence of Macross M3 and Macross Digital Mission VF-X in the Macross Compendium's timeline. For that matter, both VF-X games and Macross M3 got covered in Macross Chronicle too. I think you might want to check your facts thoroughly before you start complaining again.

Additionally, since you saw fit to include Macross II, you might want to take note that both Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song are part of its timeline too. They're canon, and the female pilots and officers who appear therein are quite applicable to this topic.

When Global and Misa go to Alaska base, there are no women among the high UN gotha. When Max, as captain of Battle7, contact earth UN highest officers, again there is not one woman among them.

And yet, that doesn't rule out the presence of women in fleet command roles or anything else... of course, in the modern day you don't exactly see 50% or more of the Joint Chiefs of Staff made up of women either.

In SDF Macross Hikaru clearly states what he thinks of women in the military, and the career of Misa seems to have been an harsh one. Again, she is an exception.

News flash... everyone had a pretty harsh military career during the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, and you yourself said that we have to sort of waive that one due to attitudes at the time. Obviously subsequent Macross shows are not at all averse to letting women kick ass and take names... e.g. Sylvie Geena, Canaria, Nora Polyansky.

And nowadays the trend is to have women and men in the military dressed all in the same way. Female ship operators in zero had skirts, too. I'll go further: in Macross we even have space suits (Klan) with high heels! If this isn't male sexual fantasy!

As I've said once already in this thread, you might want to check your facts before you post. In many nations (including the US!), the female variant of the standard service uniform includes a skirt with the option to wear trousers instead. This holds true for all five branches of the United States armed forces... and we're far from being the only ones who do that. Real-life female combat pilots wear skirts in many modern navies and air forces. It's not unusual or in any way sexist... they have the option to wear trousers and they choose not to.

It's a safe bet that Kawamori and co. modeled the UN Spacy on the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and other real-world militaries, which makes their decision to make a skirt part of the standard female uniform perfectly logical and not at all indicative of the chauvinism you're trying to read into it.

In all fairness, there's really no accounting for Klan Klang's high heeled spacesuit... but then again, anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that male sexual fantasy is pretty much the entire purpose for Klan Klang's character.

Which doesn't exclude the possibility for males to wish for less gender role-stereotyped characters. I did like Macross II, but the main fighter pilot was female. Are you implying that II was less successful because the "fighter" was a woman and a male audience could not identify in a civilian reporter?

Of course not... but let's also remember that the main character of Macross II was Hibiki, not Sylvie.

I guess I just wish some things in Macross were less "mainstream" or based on conventional stereotypes, so I apologize if I appear blunt, don't read what I wrote as a personal attack or anything like that!

Oh, don't worry... you could insult me until you were blue in the face with very little risk of actually offending me. The thing that's irritating is that a lot of your complaints largely stem from faulty assumptions and misconceptions on your part. You've gone off half-cocked and arrived at a misleading conclusion because you didn't thoroughly check your facts beforehand.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

But that's inherently misleading... as being the captain or executive officer of a starship isn't the only command position an officer can hold. The other bridge operators are line officers too, and they have command authority over various aspects of the ship's operation... the most obvious of these being the flight controller. In point of fact, there are far more command positions beyond simply commanding a ship or fleet. Restricting it to merely female starship captains (or the absence thereof) based on an EXTREMELY limited sample population drawn in large measure from shows that don't prominently feature the military cast smacks of an attempt to distort the facts to support the conclusion you want.

Ok, let's broaden the officers status to include also bridge officers (mainly communication and radar officers). With the exception of Misa, we never see a single female ship captain anywhere. Nor a single UN "big boss" female officer: in SDF Macross, when Global and Misa go to Alaska base, the high military council seems to have no women in its ranks. The same holds true for the UN officers Max is talking to when contacting Earth Headquarters. II makes no difference. It's obvuois that maybe there are indeed female high officers and pilots, but it's never clearly shown anywhere (except pilots in II). And that's strange.

But that's also extremely unfair to the female cast of Macross, since there are plenty of women in positions of civilian authority. You're arguing that Macross is sexist, and making a conscious effort to shift aside a sizable body of evidence to the contrary.

I wondered if the UN Spacy is, a thing you seem to avoid aknowledging on purpose. This is the second time you try to bring civilian or other military organizations into the equation, but I have always referred only to UN spacy (again, it's stated in the topic), so this has no relevance.

Additionally, since you saw fit to include Macross II, you might want to take note that both Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song are part of its timeline too. They're canon, and the female pilots and officers who appear therein are quite applicable to this topic.

I included II as it seems to be the only Macross production to actually have female pilots as the standard. You are the expert here, so if you say its derivative videogames have female pilots I have no reason to doubt it. This is interesting, as the aborted II universe seemed more gender balanced than the actual official Macross universe. How about ship captains and general officers in II timeline?

And yet, that doesn't rule out the presence of women in fleet command roles or anything else... of course, in the modern day you don't exactly see 50% or more of the Joint Chiefs of Staff made up of women either.

No, but I hope that by 2059 thing will be more evened out.

News flash... everyone had a pretty harsh military career during the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, and you yourself said that we have to sort of waive that one due to attitudes at the time. Obviously subsequent Macross shows are not at all averse to letting women kick ass and take names... e.g. Sylvie Geena, Canaria, Nora Polyansky.

Again, Kanaria and Nora do not belong to the UN or NUN spacy.

As I've said once already in this thread, you might want to check your facts before you post. In many nations (including the US!), the female variant of the standard service uniform includes a skirt with the option to wear trousers instead. This holds true for all five branches of the United States armed forces... and we're far from being the only ones who do that. Real-life female combat pilots wear skirts in many modern navies and air forces. It's not unusual or in any way sexist... they have the option to wear trousers and they choose not to. It's a safe bet that Kawamori and co. modeled the UN Spacy on the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and other real-world militaries, which makes their decision to make a skirt part of the standard female uniform perfectly logical and not at all indicative of the chauvinism you're trying to read into it. In all fairness, there's really no accounting for Klan Klang's high heeled spacesuit... but then again, anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that male sexual fantasy is pretty much the entire purpose for Klan Klang's character.

And that makes me sad (for the Klan part, I mean). Didn't know about the US uniforms thing, so you may have a point here. Then again, in Italy Police and Military forces did that some years ago but now have a standard "unisex" uniform (and we're not exactly an open minded country when it comes to gender equality). Again, if it's fine to have it in SDF Macross and 0, I find it difficult to believe that by 2059 this form of sexism is still the norm.

Of course not... but let's also remember that the main character of Macross II was Hibiki, not Sylvie.

Macross II had 3 main characters: Hibiki, Sylvie and Ishtar

Oh, don't worry... you could insult me until you were blue in the face with very little risk of actually offending me. The thing that's irritating is that a lot of your complaints largely stem from faulty assumptions and misconceptions on your part. You've gone off half-cocked and arrived at a misleading conclusion because you didn't thoroughly check your facts beforehand.

Well, I never insulted you, if you feel irritated that's your problem . And the facts I reported in my first post still hold true, as much as you'd like them not to.

Edited October 14, 2010 by nexxstrait

[Chronocidal]

Well, didn't Jack Archer have a female wing-... uhh, I mean.... *looks around nervously, then points* Look! A diversion! *runs*

I may have missed her being mentioned earlier, but Michael's sister was a pilot as well.. unfortunately, in her case, I think one of the biggest commonly portrayed obstacles to female pilots wound up being her downfall. Obviously you can't assume that relationships with other pilots will happen, and have a negative effect on their performance.. but it's a very real possibility that I imagine a lot of people would rather avoid altogether. The Zentraedi took care of it preemptively by having the men and women fight in separate groups to begin with.

[edited for realizing what I typed didn't make sense even from my own experience] Yeah, what I had said here really was pretty much just assuming female pilots would cause drama. It obviously could happen, but no more than it already does between guys.

In a Macross sense though, with the human race in the state it was, sending females into combat seems like it'd be a rather dumb thing to do.. If I was them, I'd be wanting to preserve all those essential internal organs necessary for making more humans.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Chronocidal

[Dynaman]

All Macross trivia aside though.. to put it bluntly, fighter squadrons are not a female friendly environment. Aside from the assorted maintenance crew, etc, you just don't see many women pilots, and there are an abundance of reasons.

Actually, at least in the US there is only ONE reason you don't see many female fighter pilots - they are NOT allowed to be fighter pilots. Don't forget that in WWII there were a lot of female fighter pilots (they were only allowed to shuttle planes to the combat theater and not allowed to fly combat).

Also - the Russians have had many female pilots (and regular soldiers fighting alongside men) since WWII.

[EDIT] I should say in WWII, I don't know about after that.

So to put it bluntly - the idea that women in combat slots will cause friction is just sexist nonsense.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Dynaman

[nexxstrait]

So to put it bluntly - the idea that women in combat slots will cause friction is just sexist nonsense.

Agreed. And Chronocidal, the phrase "I'd be wanting to preserve all those essential internal organs necessary for making more humans" brings up (to my eyes) a rather unpleasan parallel woman=flesh machine that makes kids.

[David Hingtgen]

??? I can think of US female F-16, F-15E, F-18, and F-14 pilots. I don't recall a female F-14 pilot in combat, but a RIO for sure. I know VFA-105's current commander is female, and has personally lead low-level strikes into Afghanistan. Both of the current female Thunderbird pilots have seen combat IIRC, one in the F-15E, one in the F-16C.

And there's the famous F-16C squadron at Eielson, which had so many female pilots they could do entire missions all-female.

And while not technically a *fighter* plane---need I even mention KC "Killer Chick", possibly the most famous A-10 pilot of all?

::edit:: Or just go here: http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/news.html

[Killer Robot]

It's been touched on, but I really need to add the specific that I'd like to see the occasional human female in the cockpit. Even when you allow for the exceptions, it seems the bulk of named male pilots are human, and almost all the females are part to fully Zentradi so that they fit in with that established female warrior race. I didn't see Macross II until after Frontier came out, and it got my hopes up some until Sylvie explained she became a pilot because she was inspired by her Meltran grandmother. Canaria got to do some awesome stuff, but as noted she's a private contractor, and besides got to fly the tank of a bomber that only goes in after the fighters clear the airspace. Coming back to Nora who was AUN.

The fact that female operators must be officers of some rank is true enough, but that being a near-universal trend itself isn't exactly an indication that it's a sexually equal future either, especially when you see all male captains. Still, I'll grant some of this is each series having that much as reference to the one previous.

Also, I suppose that last I knew Japan was a country where, say, women can be police officers but only male officers can carry guns and the women get to get the coffee. Gender role is still big in general there, so maybe it looks like a more progressive future from that viewpoint, I don't know.

[Dynaman]

??? I can think of US female F-16, F-15E, F-18, and F-14 pilots. I don't recall a female F-14 pilot in combat, but a RIO for sure. I know VFA-105's current commander is female, and has personally lead low-level strikes into Afghanistan. Both of the current female Thunderbird pilots have seen combat IIRC, one in the F-15E, one in the F-16C.

[snip]

Very recently changed on me then, I knew there were AH-64 female pilots - but that is the army. (very recent would be anything since 1991, alas time is speeding up since then)

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, let's broaden the officers status to include also bridge officers (mainly communication and radar officers).

If we were using the actual definition of officer status, then virtually every woman we see in the UN Forces is an officer. You seem to be confusing your impression of what an officer is (someone in command) with what actually constitutes an officer (holding a commissioned officer rank). Still, the majority of the female officers we see hold command positions anyway.

With the exception of Misa, we never see a single female ship captain anywhere.

And let's ask ourselves... how many ship captains figure prominently in the story of the various Macross shows? Five. The women have a 20% share there right off the bat. Still, you have to remember that Macross has a big universe, and we're only seeing a tiny slice of it. Just because we're not seeing them doesn't mean they're not there. It just means they haven't been given center stage yet. Women are, generally speaking, a minority in a modern military... I can't imagine any reason that would change significantly in a short period of time, especially after Earth's population was decimated.

Nor a single UN "big boss" female officer: in SDF Macross, when Global and Misa go to Alaska base, the high military council seems to have no women in its ranks. The same holds true for the UN officers Max is talking to when contacting Earth Headquarters.

As I've pointed out once already, the bigwigs in the UN Forces Command at Alaska base were likely holdovers from the various national military forces after the formation of the UN Forces. The antecedent militaries would have been predominantly male, and as such it makes sense for the officers drawn from them to fill out the UN Forces top brass would have also been predominantly male. If Macross Plus's General Gomez is any indication, many of the top brass at the UN Spacy circa 2040 are veterans of Space War 1, where the military was (like in real life) predominantly male. In theory, if large numbers of women are enlisting too then we ought to see the genders start to balance out in the top brass circa 2059, but since everything's decentralized under the NUNS banner we never saw them contact Earth for help.

I wondered if the UN Spacy is, a thing you seem to avoid aknowledging on purpose. This is the second time you try to bring civilian or other military organizations into the equation, but I have always referred only to UN spacy (again, it's stated in the topic), so this has no relevance.

No, quite the opposite. I'm trying to point out that in your increasingly desperate and nonsensical attempts to conclude that Macross's creators are sexist and/or chauvinistic, you're overlooking a lot of female characters in positions of power and authority. They're not military, true... but it's still relevant to your accusations that the franchise is somehow biased against women.

I included II as it seems to be the only Macross production to actually have female pilots as the standard. You are the expert here, so if you say its derivative videogames have female pilots I have no reason to doubt it. This is interesting, as the aborted II universe seemed more gender balanced than the actual official Macross universe. How about ship captains and general officers in II timeline?

Oh, there's no need to take my word for it... I can cite sources. I can even provide pictures if you'd like. It's not exactly a 50-50 split in terms of genders, but female pilots (incl. human female pilots) are a fair bit more visible in the DYRL-II parallel world continuity. Unfortunately, the only appearance the UN Spacy's general staff makes is in the Macross II OVA. Likewise, starship captains make very few appearances, since the UN Spacy largely uses captured Zentradi ships and builds very few ships of its own prior to 2055. The closest we get is a female flight controller from a Daedalus II-class carrier. The only captains who figure prominently in things are our good pals Vrlitwhai 7018 and Captain Balzae.

And that makes me sad (for the Klan part, I mean). Didn't know about the US uniforms thing, so you may have a point here. Then again, in Italy Police and Military forces did that some years ago but now have a standard "unisex" uniform (and we're not exactly an open minded country when it comes to gender equality). Again, if it's fine to have it in SDF Macross and 0, I find it difficult to believe that by 2059 this form of sexism is still the norm.

Just nitpicking here... but if they have the option to wear trousers instead of a skirt and they make a conscious choice not to then that isn't sexism, that's choice. We've seen several examples of unisex uniforms available in the UN Spacy, and we've seen several female characters wearing them. They obviously exist, so saying that a female character wearing a skirt with her uniform has to be the result of sexism is illogical to the point of being downright nonsensical. You're drawing an absurd conclusion here in an attempt to justify jumping to the main misinformed conclusion you made back in your first post. Gender equality does not mean that everyone has to dress the same regardless of gender.

Macross II had 3 main characters: Hibiki, Sylvie and Ishtar

But the main character whom the story centers on is Hibiki, which was my point. Yes, Sylvie is there and she's a famous female fighter pilot and a babe to boot (for added alliterative appeal), but Hibiki is the character who the action centers around.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Chronocidal]

Agreed. And Chronocidal, the phrase "I'd be wanting to preserve all those essential internal organs necessary for making more humans" brings up (to my eyes) a rather unpleasan parallel woman=flesh machine that makes kids.

True, I didn't mean to draw that parallel. In the Macross storyline that problem disappears anyway because of advances in cloning, but at the time the Earth got nearly wiped clean, I don't think they knew that would happen. I'm just thinking of the issues in a purely biological sense. Just due to physical limitations of the human body, if you're going to repopulate the species, you're going to want as many available females as possible. While men can potentially just keep producing kids, women aren't baby factories, and there's a limit to how many children they can have safely.

Of course, I'm ignoring any emotional or psychological factors here entirely... this is more like what I kind of assumed would happen with the Vulcan race after the recent reboot Star Trek movie (that whole seven year wait thing isn't going to hold up well, I think). No matter how practical you can make it sound, you're not going to be able to mandate human reproductive trends without a nasty backlash.

I remember watching some clip from the mid 80's about women flying F-14s, and how people were adjusting to that. I should probably revise or retract what I said before actually.. it's not so much that it's a female-unfriendly environment, it's just something I haven't seen in person, and the pilots I do know are all guys. I just have to remember that correlation isn't causality here I guess. The pilots I do know are a pretty rampant goofy kind of sausage fest, but whether they're like that all the time, or just because they know they're in an all guy environment is up for grabs. I think it'd be interesting to see what effect a few female pilots would have on the squadron.

Personally, I wish I knew any female pilots myself. Just something about flightsuits...

[nexxstrait]

If we were ... around.

Despite your assumption that there are indeed female ship captains aplenty outside the main characters's cast, all the background characters in commanding positions (again, spaceship captains or UN headquarters) that I'm aware of and that we actually see, or have glimpses of, are ALL male (unless you are called Mirya and technically you are a civilian - and only if your husband isn't available, of course).

Do you want to bring civilians into the equation? Since you asked so nicely, let's see how this strictly out-of-topic and quick research goes.

Macross politician (SDF): male.

Macross mayor (SDF): male.

The Mayor of the city with the micronizing chamber (SDF): male.

Frontier president (Frontier): male.

SNN boss (II): male.

SMS boss (Frontier): male.

Snow town headvillage (M7 movie): male

Sharon Apple label's boss (PLUS): male

Mayan head of the village (0): male

City 7 major (Macross 7): female (oh, wait, that's Mirya! Again! Man, she's everywhere).

I must add that I do believe that the Macross authors (since this seems to be the case in all canon Macross series to date with II as a possible - non-canon - exception) are somehow gender biased or at least have a quite stong male-centric view of things and portray the Macross world as such. Maybe they don't do it on purpose, but that could be even worse... I hope the future will prove me wrong

PS: Seto, Macross II main characters are still Hibiki AND Sylvie AND Ishtar, no matter what you claim.

Edited October 15, 2010 by nexxstrait

[talonlm]

I remember watching some clip from the mid 80's about women flying F-14s, and how people were adjusting to that. I should probably revise or retract what I said before actually.. it's not so much that it's a female-unfriendly environment, it's just something I haven't seen in person, and the pilots I do know are all guys. I just have to remember that correlation isn't causality here I guess. The pilots I do know are a pretty rampant goofy kind of sausage fest, but whether they're like that all the time, or just because they know they're in an all guy environment is up for grabs. I think it'd be interesting to see what effect a few female pilots would have on the squadron.

Personally, I wish I knew any female pilots myself. Just something about flightsuits...

Women getting into combat aviation was a huge adjustment for the males in the Air Force. Absolutely huge. A male-centric culture of warfighters that dated back to 1917 wasn't something to be broken up without some feathers being ruffled. The culture of the entire combat arms side of the house had to change, which is an entirely different thread from this one, so I'll limit this to actual job performance.

The first few women in were, as you would expect, far above the norm for the average person. Thick-skinned (a must!), very intelligent, tough minded, tested well, trained well, and genrally excelled at everything they attempted. As the glory children moved along, normal people started showing up, and, predicatbly, they passed and failed at the same level as men. There was some bitching when the PT standards were set lower for women than men, but these were fairly reasonable changes taking women's physical makeup into consideration (the same reason you will never see women in front line ground combat units--political correctness isn't going to stop a bayonet).

Today, twenty-plus years on, are there as many women as men serving in Air Force combat units? No. Couldn't begin to tell you why. Maybe living in a tent with ten or twelve of your best friends for six months a year where you get to walk half a mile through gravel in the rain as some schmuck lobs mortar rounds into the compound doesn't appeal to the average female college graduate. Who knows. But the ones who do volunteer are just as mentally tough and ready to get the job done as anyone. I've flown with a few women over the years and can't complain. Seen more than a few men screw up the same job women were doing quite well at . . . but I've also seen more than one woman drop the ball, too, and no one is afraid to call them on it anymore than they would a man. There are still some cultural issues to contend with . . . the 'goofy sausage fest' still happens now and again with predictable results . . . but women's biggest impact on the military was their overall lack of impact on the military. Once a few minor changes were made to accomodate them, it was back to business as usual.

Not surprised to see how the Japanese put women into their shows; seems to match with what little I know of their general views of their society. Existing in the post-Boldolza world, I can certainly see the arguments against a policy of confining women to the combat support arena. One would think with such a limited supply of personnel the concern would be lead on target, not what kind of underwear they put on the morning.

[Seto Kaiba]

Have it your way then. Despite your assumption that there are indeed female ship captains aplenty outside the main characters's cast, all the background characters in commanding positions I'm aware of and that we actually see or have a glimpse of are ALL male

Yes, I'm aware of that... but as I've already said several times (and you've studiously ignored), we only get to see a tiny slice of Macross's vast universe. You're trying to draw conclusions about the universe as a whole on the basis of an extremely small sample population and the (misguided) assumption that women are equally as numerous as men in the UN Forces, or any military for that matter. This is, again, not indicative of sexism at all, but rather that more men than women find the military an attractive long-term career option. More and more, I think that instead of examining the facts and then coming to a conclusion based on them, you started with the conclusion you wanted to be outraged about and tried to find only those facts that superficially fit what you're trying to say.

I also can't shake the hunch that your beliefs about proper gender roles in a military environment are drawn more from Star Trek than actual knowledge of military affairs.

Do you want to bring civilians into the equation? Fine, since you asked so nicely [...]

Yet again, you conveniently omitted a significant number of women in positions of power and/or authority. Even if we discount the fact that most of the influential musicians in the Macross universe are women, we still have an interesting combination of characters to work with... such as:

Myung Fang Lone: Sharon Apple's producer

Akiko Hojo: Record label executive producer

Sazapi (sp?): Television producer (helped Mylene launch her solo career)

Sara Nome: Tribal religious leader

Mao Nome: Leading xenobiologist, head of the 117th Research fleet's study of the Vajra

Aries Turner: UN Forces (OTEC?) researcher, genius, pioneer of Protoculture research

Ranshi Mei: Xenobiologist, Dr. Nome's research partner in the 117th Research Fleet

Grace O'Connor: Xenobiologist, Dr. Nome's research partner, Sheryl Nome's manager/producer, presumed to be inventor of the galaxy-wide zero-time fold network concept, nearly conquered the galaxy.

Canaria Berstein: Licensed doctor, combat pilot

Milia Jenius: Mayor, City-7

Maria Fokina Barnrose: Leader of the Vindirance anti-government organization.

Mahara Fabrio: UN Spacy pilot (retired), Coach of the Black Skull T-Crash team.

Pasha: Manager, Black Skull T-Crash team.

Luxor Jebiru: Top T-Crash solo competitor.

And, by the way, Macross II main characters are still Hibiki, Sylvie and Ishtar, no matter what you claim.

I'm not denying that Ishtar and Sylvie are main characters too... but Hibiki is the focus of the story, like him or not.

I must add that I do believe that the Macross authors (since this seems to be the trend in all canon Macross series to date with II as a possible - discarded - exception) are somehow gender biased, but maybe they don't do it on purpose (and that could be even worse...).

Yeah, there's no evidence of that... except in the misconceptions and (hopefully unintentional) omissions you've made in this thread. There's just no evidence of this chauvinistic agenda you're trying to tell us is secretly at work here.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[nexxstrait]

Women getting into combat aviation was a huge adjustment for the males in the Air Force. Absolutely huge. A male-centric culture of warfighters that dated back to 1917 wasn't something to be broken up without some feathers being ruffled. The culture of the entire combat arms side of the house had to change, which is an entirely different thread from this one, so I'll limit this to actual job performance.

The first few women in were, as you would expect, far above the norm for the average person. Thick-skinned (a must!), very intelligent, tough minded, tested well, trained well, and genrally excelled at everything they attempted. As the glory children moved along, normal people started showing up, and, predicatbly, they passed and failed at the same level as men. There was some bitching when the PT standards were set lower for women than men, but these were fairly reasonable changes taking women's physical makeup into consideration (the same reason you will never see women in front line ground combat units--political correctness isn't going to stop a bayonet).

Today, twenty-plus years on, are there as many women as men serving in Air Force combat units? No. Couldn't begin to tell you why. Maybe living in a tent with ten or twelve of your best friends for six months a year where you get to walk half a mile through gravel in the rain as some schmuck lobs mortar rounds into the compound doesn't appeal to the average female college graduate. Who knows. But the ones who do volunteer are just as mentally tough and ready to get the job done as anyone. I've flown with a few women over the years and can't complain. Seen more than a few men screw up the same job women were doing quite well at . . . but I've also seen more than one woman drop the ball, too, and no one is afraid to call them on it anymore than they would a man. There are still some cultural issues to contend with . . . the 'goofy sausage fest' still happens now and again with predictable results . . . but women's biggest impact on the military was their overall lack of impact on the military. Once a few minor changes were made to accomodate them, it was back to business as usual.

Not surprised to see how the Japanese put women into their shows; seems to match with what little I know of their general views of their society. Existing in the post-Boldolza world, I can certainly see the arguments against a policy of confining women to the combat support arena. One would think with such a limited supply of personnel the concern would be lead on target, not what kind of underwear they put on the morning.

Definitely interesting insight.

Also thanks David Hingtgen for the link to the article

Edited October 15, 2010 by nexxstrait

[nexxstrait]

Back from the week end! On to the Seto post.

Yet again, you conveniently omitted a significant number of women in positions of power and/or authority. Even if we discount the fact that most of the influential musicians in the Macross universe are women, we still have an interesting combination of characters to work with... such as:

[lists]

First of all, I don't watch Star Trek. Second, even if I did intend to include civilians and non-UN in places of power in my first post, I still see no politicians in you list except the already mentioned (by me) Miria.

Let's see your list in detail:

Myung Fang Lone: she was just a pawn and had no real decision power (re-watch plus)

Akiko Hojo: ok

Sazapi (sp?): who???

Sara Nome: still had to answer to the elder (strange, for a religious leader). But ok.

Mao Nome & Ranshe Mei: we really don't see that much of them in Frontier to draw conclusions

Aries Turner: head of a research group... and she was a genius

Grace O'Connor: she was clearly following orders (see her as a Mata Hari in space) and goes on executing them naked...

Canaria Berstein, Mirya: already mentioned

Maria Fokina Barnrose: ok (and this confirms that you have to be non-UN Spacy to lead something)

Characters from M7 Trash (really!): re-read the comic and you'll see why there is no reason to even mention them.