Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur

[azrael]

Ok, I positted something similar to this the 1/60 VF-19 Kai toy thread but I will repeat it a little here. How much of the design retcons seen in the master file do people think will migrate over to the new VF-19 toy?

Well, considering the Master File appears to be using the artwork of Hasegawa and Yamato.... I would say how much of the designs of the VF-19 toy(s) were placed into the Master File...

[Graham]

There are two big ones in my opinion, the common thigh the master file shows,

Well, although some of the CG art in the Master File shows a common intake, the front view line art on pages 66 & 67 shows the two district intake shapes that we have come to associate with the YF-19/VF-19A and VF-19E(Kai)/F/S/P.

In fact all the side view line-art also seems to show the two distinct intake shapes, although admittedly the difference is a tad more subtle than Kawamori's original line-art.

Graham

Actually the 19f/s have a slightly different canopy shape too in the Master file (Not as drastic as they are in the line art)....as do the Basara Types...sorry can't remember what the letter variant is for it. But I doo like the more commonality of the variants in the book.

Chris

Yes the shape of the bottom edge of the canopy on the VF-19E/F/S/P/Kai is very different to that of the VF-19A.

Graham

Ok, I positted something similar to this the 1/60 VF-19 Kai toy thread but I will repeat it a little here. How much of the design retcons seen in the master file do people think will migrate over to the new VF-19 toy?

There are two big ones in my opinion, the common thigh the master file shows, whereas before every VF-19 after the VF-19F had a new more rounded thigh design, which I never cared for, and the wing fold design. Now the wing fold might not be possible to reproduce, those linkages within the wing would make it very weak and at the 1/60 scale much harder/more expensive to manufacture. The thigh retcon though opens up a world of possibilities, including a VF-19A/C, that uses the new common parts.

According the master file, with exception of the canopy openning (YF-19 having the split, and all others rear hinging), the 19 series all has the following common parts:

Forward fuselage (with the exception of the canopy on the YF-19, and the two seater 19B/D)

Thighs

Arms (Biceps->hands)

Chest

Crotch

IMHO these are the most important/largest most major assemblies of the 19 Series.

This also leaves the following parts different between the models.

LERX (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Vertical Stabs (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Lower Legs (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Wings (YF->19D (common), 19F/S (common), 19E/Kai (unique))

Heads (YF->19D (common), all others unique)

Shields (YF->19D (common), 19E->19Kai (common))

Shoulders (YF->19D (common), 19E->19S (common), 19Kai (unique due to opennings))

Canards (YF->19E/P/Kai (common), 19F/S (common verniers))

Guns (YF->19S (common), 19Kai (unique))

With the except of the lower legs and wings, most of these are fairly minor assemblies.

What do people think? For the most part I consider these parts of minor design impact if all the others are common. If the master file design retcons do show up in the new toy, it could mean more VF-19 toys of multiple variants, but would people accept the design retcon? It might not even mean a YF-19 V3 toy, but the use of the VF-19Kai toy parts, if the list I provided proves accurate, could still easily yield VF-19A/C toys with reusing and some minimal redesign of parts from the YF-19 toy.

Graham if I am forgetting any parts reuse/uniqueness please excuse/correct me.

Will give a proper answer to this post in the next day or two. Too tired and drunk too much red wine right now to give a proper reply.

Graham

[Graham]

Coincidentally, Knight, I've been working on something that could illustrate what you were saying some.

Since I liked the VF-19F/S redesign in the book, I decided to do the same thing with the Hasegawa-based VF-19A profile line art I was working on. I have all the parts that I've changed in orange here to illustrate. It's not finished, the cockpit canopy needs to be changed, along with some details on the upper fuselage, the head/laser, wings, and the gunpod (the VF-19F one lacks the five vents on the side that the YF-19's has).

Although you can't see it on the side view line-art, another difference that the E/F/S/P has is an additional verner thruster located at the mid-wing pivot point that the VF-19A lacks.

I'm glad you also caught the additional vernier located below the hybrid sensor on the nose of the VF-19E/F/S/P. I only recently noticed that myself!

Graham

[Graham]

Forearms (sans shield) have always been another shared part between the YF-19/VF-19A and the VF-19E/Kai/F/S/P.

Regarding the commonality displayed in the Master Files CG pics for the Chest, Groin and Thighs areas, I'm wondering if this is just laziness on behalf on the CG illustrator. I note the CG battroid pic on page 53, shows the VF-19F, with the VF-19A's chest guns.

In Kawamori's lineart, the chest, thihs and groin of the VF-19Kai/F/S/P have always been distinct and different from the YF-19/VF-19A types.

Graham

[Graham]

Interesting that Master Files shows the VF-19E/F/S/P with the VFC (Vortex Flow Controller) on the nose, whereas previously it was only the YF-19/VF-19A that was shown with the VFC.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

What's the Vortex Flow Controller?

[Vic Mancini]

What's the Vortex Flow Controller?

I'm curious too.

Regarding the common intake seen on some of the A-types and F/S-types, I wonder if that has something to do with the component design mentioned in Sketchley's translation. Like, maybe you can slap a VF-19A's intake/thighs on a VF-19F's frame and come up with a hybrid of the two? Just guessing.

"Because each part in the VF-19 series has a component construction, it is easy to optimize the air frame structure according to the usage, environment and so on."

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.0

[Talos]

Although you can't see it on the side view line-art, another difference that the E/F/S/P has is an additional verner thruster located at the mid-wing pivot point that the VF-19A lacks.

I'm glad you also caught the additional vernier located below the hybrid sensor on the nose of the VF-19E/F/S/P. I only recently noticed that myself!

Graham

Yeah, I made sure to get that one in there. I decided against putting on the wing root one, since it'd be barely visible and wouldn't look good at all. Besides the wings on both, I'm mostly finished, by the way.

And yeah, the CG guy was lazy reusing those parts. In my opinion, based on what I saw in there and then worked with drawing the above, I'd say that the thigh on the second generation (VF-19F and later) is thicker and deeper then the YF-19/VF-19D.

[Graham]

What's the Vortex Flow Controller?

No idea about what the text in Master Files says, but from the pics, it seems to refer to the verniers and strakes on the nose (posibly part of the shoulders as well).

In the older TIAS Mac Plus movie bok, this was refered to as the Active Airflow Control System (or something like that).

In Kawamori's lineart, the VF-19E/F/S/P, has never been shown with these nose verniers previously, but Master Files now shows them for all models of 19.

Grahm

[Talos]

No idea about what the text in Master Files says, but from the pics, it seems to refer to the verniers and strakes on the nose (posibly part of the shoulders as well).

In the older TIAS Mac Plus movie bok, this was refered to as the Active Airflow Control System (or something like that).

In Kawamori's lineart, the VF-19E/F/S/P, has never been shown with these nose verniers previously, but Master Files now shows them for all models of 19.

Grahm

The Bandai kit schematics I used to make my old VF-19F had a diamond-shaped panel in the exact same place the MF VF-19F has that nose thruster.

[Graham]

Yeah, I made sure to get that one in there. I decided against putting on the wing root one, since it'd be barely visible and wouldn't look good at all. Besides the wings on both, I'm mostly finished, by the way.

And yeah, the CG guy was lazy reusing those parts. In my opinion, based on what I saw in there and then worked with drawing the above, I'd say that the thigh on the second generation (VF-19F and later) is thicker and deeper then the YF-19/VF-19D.

Great job with the comparison pics.

I find it interesting that the Bandai 1/250 scale VF-19kai/F/S/P toys have larger tail fins than the Bandai 1/250 scale YF-19 toys, where as the VF-19 Master File has the YF-19/VF-19A with the larger tails. Then to throw another spanner in the works, Kawamori's lineart seems to have the tails of all types about the same overall size (although with the lineart being all hand drawn, it's all a bit subjective IMO).

I noticed another error by the CG artists in Master Files. All the CG pics of the various 2 seater recon and ELINT varations have the wrong canopy. In the side-view line-art these types are drawn with an all new style 2-seater canopy, but the CG pics show them with a normal VF-19A type canopy.

Graham

[Talos]

Great job with the comparison pics.

I find it interesting that the Bandai 1/250 scale VF-19kai/F/S/P toys have larger tail fins than the Bandai 1/250 scale YF-19 toys, where as the VF-19 Master File has the YF-19/VF-19A with the larger tails. Then to throw another spanner in the works, Kawamori's lineart seems to have the tails of all types about the same overall size (although with the lineart being all hand drawn, it's all a bit subjective IMO).

I noticed another error by the CG artists in Master Files. All the CG pics of the various 2 seater recon and ELINT varations have the wrong canopy. In the side-view line-art these types are drawn with an all new style 2-seater canopy, but the CG pics show them with a normal VF-19A type canopy.

Graham

What I think is also interesting about the tail fins is that the VF-19A/C FAST Pack-equipped birds have the tail in the same place as the VF-19F, since the legs are lowered like the Super VF-1s.

As far as the model, I think that was more...time saving...then an error. Very much done deliberately. Since they already had the VF-19A model, they just stuck the ELINT parts onto it.

[Graham]

Interesting passage from the VF-19S Hi-Metal box.

Relevant to this thread.

Good English as well.

Graham

[Mr March]

Yeah, the English is not bad at all. In some ways, it reads eerily like something I would have written for the VF-19 profile on the M3. Same sort of method, using what we see in the anime to build something readable for the profile. But I suppose now that we have the Chronicle, Macross trivia has become much more plentiful

[lechuck]

Yeah, the English is not bad at all. In some ways, it reads eerily like something I would have written for the VF-19 profile on the M3. Same sort of method, using what we see in the anime to build something readable for the profile. But I suppose now that we have the Chronicle, Macross trivia has become much more plentiful

This is exactly what I felt too, while reading this over in the toy section. I was thinking... "Did they rip this from Macross Mecha Manual?"

But I was to lazy go and actually check it up.

[Graham]

Interesting passage from the VF-19S Hi-Metal box.

Relevant to this thread.

Good English as well.

Graham

Two things immediately struck me when I read the passage on the VF-19S Hi-Metal Box.

1) where it says:

"The VF-19S is piloted by Lieutenant Docker, former VF-17D pilot in Diamond Force. A former VF-19 Combat Test Pilot....."

I found the part about Docker being a former VF-19 Combat Test Pilot extremely interesting. This could just refer to the very short time, where he was shown flying the 'Test Colors' VF-19S in episode 20 of Macross 7. Or, it could also mean that in a former assignment, he has previous experience testing the VF-19. This would go a long way to explaning why he was given command of Emerald Force, rather than giving it to Gamlin.

2) Also of extreme interest: "The Blazer Valkyrie could be called the fleet's most powerfull mainstay fighter. The first Blazer Valkyries deployed in the Macross 7 fleet where given to the elite Emerald Force".

That it refers to the Blazer as "mainstay fighter" and also mentions that "the first Blazer Valkyries". Both phrases seem to imply that at least in the Macross 7 fleet, the Blazer not only equipped Emerald Force, but probably after the Protodeviln war went on to replace the VF-11C.

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

That it refers to the Blazer as "mainstay fighter" and also mentions that "the first Blazer Valkyries". Both phrases seem to imply that at least in the Macross 7 fleet, the Blazer not only equipped Emerald Force, but probably after the Protodeviln war went on to replace the VF-11C.

Issues of the Master File's unreliability aside, wasn't that already a long-established fact of life in Macross before Macross Frontier came out? The whole point of the Project Super Nova tests was to select the next main variable fighter, and the VF-19 won that. Prior to Macross Frontier establishing that the New U.N. Spacy adopted the VF-171 instead as a cost-saving move, the VF-19 was already slated to eventually replace the VF-11.

[Graham]

Issues of the Master File's unreliability aside, wasn't that already a long-established fact of life in Macross before Macross Frontier came out? The whole point of the Project Super Nova tests was to select the next main variable fighter, and the VF-19 won that. Prior to Macross Frontier establishing that the New U.N. Spacy adopted the VF-171 instead as a cost-saving move, the VF-19 was already slated to eventually replace the VF-11.

Although it's well known that the YF-19 won project Super Nova and the VF-19 was indeed slated to replace the VF-11, everything we've seen and read up to and including Frontier (but prior to Master Files), seemed to indicate, that the VF-19 was in the end due to its cost and complexity only ever produced in extremely small quantities for Special Forces units and Ghosts and the VF-171 made up the eventual mainstay replacement for the VF-11.

Excluding Master Files, this is the first clear indication, that adoption of the VF-19 was perhaps more widespread, at least among certain fleets, than previously thought.

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

Although it's well known that the YF-19 won project Super Nova and the VF-19 was indeed slated to replace the VF-11 [...] this is the first clear indication, that adoption of the VF-19 was perhaps more widespread, at least among certain fleets, than previously thought.

Now, if memory serves, it's been stated or at least heavily implied that at some point prior to Macross Frontier colony fleets obtained (or perhaps always had) some degree of autonomy in selecting what to equip their defense forces with. Macross Chronicle established that there are some fleets that forgo the use of manned fighters altogether and exclusively use the AIF-7 Ghost on said mecha's sheet. Also, weren't the VF-25 Messiah and VF-27 Lucifer supposed to be fleet-exclusive VFs? It may even go back as far as the Megaroad-13, since the colony that the fleet established was apparently using VF-14s when the main VF of the U.N. Spacy was the VF-11.

Anyhoo, getting to the point... if my recall is good here, when was there ever anything to say the Macross-7 fleet COULDN'T continue production of the VF-19 Excalibur? I mean, sure... they would be faced with a choice between the expensive, complex VF-19 and the new cheap, versatile VF-171, but it wouldn't be that unreasonable for them to decide to go with the devil they know over the devil they don't, especially after you factor in retooling costs.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Graham]

My point is that it is nice to have another writen source confirming (or at least implying), that the VF-19 is in more wide spread use than previously thought (at least with certain fleets and/or planets).

Graham

[raptormesh]

I would imagine the 19 and its upgraded derivatives coupled with the VF-171 would parallel the Hi-Low mix of fighters of the F-22 and F-35 in the real world. A small number of Excaliburs would establish space superiority for the flexible 171s that could act as missile boats, recon etc.

Well, at least in my mind it seems rather fun to picture them working together.

And of course, the VF-22S++ would be the specfor mainstays but I'm OT.

[cool8or]

I just received mine this week, and I'm very happy with it.

It seems like this book has been very successful too, isn't? What valkyrie should be the next in these book series? VF-0? VF-25? Sorry if you talk about this before, but I didn't find it...

[Seto Kaiba]

It seems like this book has been very successful too, isn't? What valkyrie should be the next in these book series? VF-0? VF-25? Sorry if you talk about this before, but I didn't find it...

There was some speculation either early on in this thread or in the last one about what would come next in the Master File series. It seems somewhat unlikely that they'll do a VF-4, -9, -11, -14, -17, or -22 Master File book, since those models were touched on in either the VF-1 or VF-19 Master File books, or didn't have enough exposure and backstory for them to devote a whole book to them. I'd suspect the next (and possibly final) VF Master File will be the VF-25, which'll talk about the VF-171 and VF-27 in passing.

[Graham]

Ditto, I also think the next (and possibly final) book in the series will be about the VF-25.

They do seem to be concentrating on the 'hero' mecha, which makes sense from a commercial standpoint.

Graham

[Talos]

There was some speculation either early on in this thread or in the last one about what would come next in the Master File series. It seems somewhat unlikely that they'll do a VF-4, -9, -11, -14, -17, or -22 Master File book, since those models were touched on in either the VF-1 or VF-19 Master File books, or didn't have enough exposure and backstory for them to devote a whole book to them. I'd suspect the next (and possibly final) VF Master File will be the VF-25, which'll talk about the VF-171 and VF-27 in passing.

You also forgot the VF-0, which gets some coverage in the VF-1 Master File.

You're probably right about the next one being VF-25, really.

In the meantime, I'm still working on my VF-19s too. I usually don't show any of my colored art in this part of the board, but since I assumed Graham would be interested, I thought I would make one exception. I'm doing these in two different styles. The first is unshaded anime-style coloring like the Macross Mecha Manual's, which you can see on this VF-19F of Macross-7 that I started. Still needs the wing line art, then most of the markings and stripping, but it's getting there. The other is what my long-term project with this is, a fully shaded and detailed aircraft profile view of the VF-19 family, starting with the VF-19A which I'm showing here.

Enjoy!

[Zinjo]

Interesting passage from the VF-19S Hi-Metal box.

Relevant to this thread.

Good English as well.

Graham

I seriously doubt that was written by a native Japanese person. Particularly due to the correct use of the indefinite article "a". Getting a native English speaker who has strong Japanese language skills or was spoon fed the information is the most likely culprit.

I am not saying it couldn't be a native Japanese speaker who wrote it, it just seems very unlikely to me. The paragraph is very sophisticated compared to the typical English usage we've seen from Japan.

It would be like our Japanese as a second language members writing a highly sophisticated and nuanced paragraph in Japanese. It isn't impossible, just not likely given their experience with the language no matter how extensive.

IMHO

[Graham]

Wondering whether Egan Loo might have been hired to write for Bandai.

Graham

[sketchley]

I seriously doubt that was written by a native Japanese person.

You know, that's not a very nice thing to say.

For example, how many native Japanese speakers were born and raised in an English speaking country, thereby speaking fluent English AND Japanese?

And let's not forget those that have achieved considerable education and are able to get a higher score on a TOEIC/TOEFL/IELTS/IELTS Academic test than a "native speaker" from an English speaking country?

Anyhow, there is only one undeniable fact: the manufacturer cares enough about the international market to hire a professional to do the translation. Kudos to them, and I hope that there is more from where it came from.

Edited July 20, 2010 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

You know, that's not a very nice thing to say.

For example, how many native Japanese speakers were born and raised in an English speaking country, thereby speaking fluent English AND Japanese?

And let's not forget those that have achieved considerable education and are able to get a higher score on a TOEIC/TOEFL/IELTS/IELTS Academic test than a "native speaker" from an English speaking country?

Anyhow, there is only one undeniable fact: the manufacturer cares enough about the international market to hire a professional to do the translation. Kudos to them, and I hope that there is more from where it came from.

I somehow knew you'd comment on that post...

My comment has little to do with decorum and more to do with pragmatism.

At no point did I say it was impossible, however, based on "experience" this is one of the very few times we've had a sophisticated English description on a product made for the domestic Japanese market.

Academic tests do not demonstrate a working knowledge of a language, only the ability to correctly answer questions in and about that language.

English in it's entirety, would be as easy to master for a non-natural English speaker as would the complex nuances of written Japanese (particularly Kanji) for a non-natural Japanese speaker. In other words, very difficult without many many years experience, but not impossible.

My statement is more a commentary on the difficulty of writing a coherent sophisticated paragraph in English (for a non native speaker) as opposed to any diminishing of English speaking Japanese people. The language can be damn hard to learn, never mind master it. Even for those born to it.

However, I too appreciate Bandai's efforts to ensure the English description is understandable to the international market. It shows outstanding business acumen...

Edited July 20, 2010 by Zinjo

[Graham]

Let's keep this to discussions on the YF/VF-19 please.

Graham

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I haven't posted in this thread for a while. Is the VF-19S the best of the VF-19 variants? The larger moment arm and ankle vernier ring were mentioned a while back, and from the discussion, it seemed that though the 19S was made for enhanced performance in space, it was no slouch at all in the atmosphere, unlike other space-superiority fighters like the VF-4 and others(14?).

Also, given that both the S models for the 19 and 22 were produced in limited quantities, which one is the better fighter? I always wondered why Max took a 22s in Operation Stargazer instead of an Excalibur variant.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[Graham]

Yes, the VF-19F/S should be no slouch in an atmosphere, with its extra verniers, powerful engines and large control surfaces on the wings and tail. With option longer wings shown in VFMF it should be even better.

However, asking whether it is the best of the 19 varients is opening a can of worms, given the controversy that exists regarding what is an accurate engine thrust rating for the VF-19S.

In theory, the alround best 19 variant would be a VF-19P, fitted with VF-19F engines. This would give the highest thrust and the largest number of atmospheric control surfaces.

Graham

[sketchley]

Also, given that both the S models for the 19 and 22 were produced in limited quantities, which one is the better fighter? I always wondered why Max took a 22s in Operation Stargazer instead of an Excalibur variant.

Graham tackled your first question, so I'll try to answer your second:

Because Shoji Kawamori wanted to have the VF-22 appear at least once in Macross 7.

In universe, it's probably because of two factors: the number of internal weapons the VF-22 can carry, and it's enhanced flight controls. By that, I mean the BDI control system, and not the other kinds of controls.

[azrael]

In universe, it's probably because of two factors: the number of internal weapons the VF-22 can carry, and it's enhanced flight controls. By that, I mean the BDI control sub-system, and not the other kinds of controls.

Fixed.

Just to be clear, the VF-22's BDI system is only there to help. It's still a conventionally controlled fighter and the BDI is there to simply help the pilot with mundane tasks during periods of intense flying.

[sketchley]

Now that I have a bit more time to reply, there are a couple more points that needed expansion in the "why the VF-22" post:

A VF-22 without Super Parts has superior active stealth performance than a VF-19 or any other craft with Super Parts. Sure, the VF-19 may have the edge on atmospheric performance overall, but the VF-22 has a greater amount of internally carried weapons.

There was something else that made the non-Super Parts equipped VF-22 better than a Super Parts equipped VF-19 in that situation, but I can't remember what that is now >.<

Thanks Azrael for the clarification, too.