Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur

[Graham]

Judging from the picture from operation "Phanton Sword" on page 97 of Master File (scan attached), the mounting pylon for the NP-BAP-15c Booster Unit is definitely angled and attaches to the back of the fighter, not the shoulders.

I may try to jury-rig a mount out of stiff card and tape for the toy, just to see how it would look. I'm also curious to see, if the mount had a hinge on it, would there be enough clearance for the boosters to fold down on to the back in Batroid mode.

Graham

[sketchley]

pg 066 shows where the NP-BAP-15c Booster Units join on - the same spots as the FBF-1000A Fold Booster; neither the dorsal spine nor the stowed shield.

[Graham]

pg 066 shows where the NP-BAP-15c Booster Units join on - the same spots as the FBF-1000A Fold Booster; neither the dorsal spine nor the stowed shield.

Yes, but page 66 shows the position only in the most general sense. I'd love to see some close up lineart of the mounts, showing exactly what they look like and exactly where they attach, especially in relation to the Fold Booster. And of course to know whether they can be used in Battroid mode or have to be ejected to transform.

There is a limited amout of real estate available in that particular area of the 19, especially when the Fold Booster is already attached.

Also, page 67 clearly has a mistake when it lists the mount position of the VF-19F/S's NP-BAB-21 boosters at postion 6, when they should be at postions 8 & 5.

Graham

[Vic Mancini]

(scan attached),

Graham

Those are some massive leg fast packs. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at in the intake area, but I can see now that the legs are angled down at the "Gerwalk leg hinge" sort of like how the VF-1's legs are configured when it's equipped with super parts.

The standard VF-19 leg attachments don't do that.

[Graham]

Those are some massive leg fast packs. It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at in the intake area, but I can see now that the legs are angled down at the "Gerwalk leg hinge" sort of like how the VF-1's legs are configured when it's equipped with super parts.

The standard VF-19 leg attachments don't do that.

You do have to angle the legs down on the Yamato 1/60 YF-19 toy to fit the leg FAST packs (1 click down of the joint below the intake).

Also, the side view lineart of the VF-19 w/FAST Packs on pages 84-85 of Master File, shows the legs angled down to fit the leg FAST packs.

Yes, I know this is different from Kawamori's original lineart, but Kawamori's lineart featured a lot of anime magic to make transformation work.

Graham

[Vic Mancini]

You do have to angle the legs down on the Yamato 1/60 YF-19 toy to fit the leg FAST packs (1 click down of the joint below the intake).

Also, the side view lineart of the VF-19 w/FAST Packs on pages 84-85 of Master File, shows the legs angled down to fit the leg FAST packs.

Graham

That's true, but the Yamato's configuration was pretty minimal compared to what I'm seeing in that picture from the Master File. That picture above of the 19 with it's legs angling down really resembles the VF-1 with super parts.

So do the 19's leg fast packs now fit completely underneath the wing roots? That area around the wing roots and the FPs on the original line art was one of the most anime magical aspects of the original design. And the reason why Yamato had to put in those slots on the leg armor for the wing roots, I guess.

[TehPW]

I keep seeing people bitching about reton info & specifications for the Vf-19 series but maybe there's another way to look at this.

One way, is that, unlike Star Trek, where pretty much one person's been in charge of keeping the cannon material straight (Mike Okuda), is that more than a few pep's get to write all the nice fluff for us to salavate over... and they might not be talking to each other to keep thier notes as straight as we'd hope...

another, unlikely but if this was REAL, then i'd figure it would occur...

the specs change because of location. A VF-19 might operate at certain figures and specification on one system (on-plant & local space within that system) and will very likely have different specs in another system. the numbers will always be non-specific because noplace will be the same in terms of athmosphere density at surface range, temperatures, etc...

anyway i just hate reading about fussing and finger pointing (unless finger is said used to cause farts... o.O)

where is this pic of the VC-19. what is it

and i LIKE that phantom VF-19. that looks preeeety.

Edited June 20, 2010 by pensives_wetness

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, I know this is different from Kawamori's original lineart, but Kawamori's lineart featured a lot of anime magic to make transformation work.

Not necessarily a bad thing... the need for absolute realism goes out the window once you start telling a story about people using giant robots to fight spirit sucking evil magic monsters with the power of rock. If the transformation doesn't quite work out the way the series shows, that's no big deal... it's the magic of overtechnology at play. It does say rather a lot about the Master File's writers that they went to such trouble to find ways for "overtechnology magic" to be carried out by relatively mundane means.

One way, is that, unlike Star Trek, where pretty much one person's been in charge of keeping the cannon material straight (Mike Okuda), is that more than a few pep's get to write all the nice fluff for us to salavate over...

But, with the exception of what is now Macross's parallel world continuity, we DO have the one guy keeping the canon material straight and largely deciding what's what in the Macross universe... Shoji Kawamori. What started the whole discussion about a potential retcon of the VF-19's specs was sketchley noting that Kawamori was listed as a "supervisor" on the Master File and that the alleged retcon lined up with material which had been published in Macross Chronicle.

Macross has had this kind of "tech manual" book before too, and just like the tech manuals for Star Trek they were always considered non-canon.

the specs change because of location. A VF-19 might operate at certain figures and specification on one system (on-plant & local space within that system) and will very likely have different specs in another system.

True... though the reason the whole bruhaha started was because the alleged retcon/typo changed the stats of the version seen in the animation. Specifically, the VF-19F/S used by the Macross-7 fleet's Emerald Force and produced locally by the fleet's Three-Star manufacturing ship. You're spot-on that performance will be affected by whatever the local atmospheric conditions are, but that's not what the debate was about.

where is this pic of the VC-19. what is it

Large image is large, scan previously posted earlier in this thread.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[TehPW]

So i'll assume that the VC-19 is a basically a moke airframe without transformation in the main body and cockpit fuselage, outside of the engine nacelles... maybe Gerwalk if the arms are included... well i guess it's an example of if you have money & stupid... LOL

what exactly does the recon pod do? Elint? ECM? Photorecon? when they did that conjectur, what real world aircraft or system was thier insperation?

[Seto Kaiba]

So i'll assume that the VC-19 is a basically a moke airframe without transformation in the main body and cockpit fuselage, outside of the engine nacelles... maybe Gerwalk if the arms are included... well i guess it's an example of if you have money & stupid... LOL

I'm not sure if anyone's actually dug into it and done a detailed translation of the bit about the VC-19V "VIP-calibur". From what I gathered while skimming the book a few hours ago while chatting with Talos, the VC-19V is derived from the either the Block 17 or the Block 20 version of the VF-19C as a dedicated (probably non-transformable) official-use light transport for high-ranking military and government personnel. It can seat five in the passenger compartment, and a crew of two in the cockpit.

This is actually something that's been done before in the real world, though it was done with bombers instead of jet fighters. During WW2, the US Army was using a derivative of the B-25J Mitchell bomber (designated VB-25J) as staff and VIP transport planes. Two of the six VB-25Js produced ended up as the personal transports of General Eisenhower and General Arnold.

what exactly does the recon pod do? Elint? ECM? Photorecon? when they did that conjectur, what real world aircraft or system was thier insperation?

Y'know, I haven't bothered to check... I doubt it's ELINT or ECM, given the way that the pod is mounted. Might be photo-recon. Kinda reminds me of the FFR-31MR/D Super Sylph from Yukikaze.

[sketchley]

Translation update: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.0

Best to start from the top, as I'm starting to split posts. Also, best to consider it a scanlation, despite the vast majority of it being proper translations.

Anyhow, current angle of attack on the project: translation of only the titles, subheadings, etc, etc.. Some of the captions and all of the labels on the diagrams have been translated (usually going from the top down)

completed (with aforementioned angle): pg 020-043

work-in-process: pg 044-059, 063~

virtually completed translation: 060-061

I'm really intested in completing the translation of the section on the Supika Incident. However, I'm going to hammer out as much of the "scanlation" as I can before I get sick of it.

Cheers.

[TehPW]

I'm not sure if anyone's actually dug into it and done a detailed translation of the bit about the VC-19V "VIP-calibur". From what I gathered while skimming the book a few hours ago while chatting with Talos, the VC-19V is derived from the either the Block 17 or the Block 20 version of the VF-19C as a dedicated (probably non-transformable) official-use light transport for high-ranking military and government personnel. It can seat five in the passenger compartment, and a crew of two in the cockpit.

This is actually something that's been done before in the real world, though it was done with bombers instead of jet fighters. During WW2, the US Army was using a derivative of the B-25J Mitchell bomber (designated VB-25J) as staff and VIP transport planes. Two of the six VB-25Js produced ended up as the personal transports of General Eisenhower and General Arnold.

Y'know, I haven't bothered to check... I doubt it's ELINT or ECM, given the way that the pod is mounted. Might be photo-recon. Kinda reminds me of the FFR-31MR/D Super Sylph from Yukikaze.

The US-3A COD Viking comes to mind as well, as far as real world comparasions are concerned...

[Graham]

Translation update: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.0

Cheers.

Great job. I find the translation of page 43 very interesting:

Confirms the space specialization of the E/F/S/P types and and also gives an explanation for the revised shape or the LERX, or "extension of the (wing) glove from the strake", as they call it.

But following on from the information presented on page 43, the VF-19P should logically, have the most atmospheric maneuverability of all the VF-19 variants, given that it has canards, ventral fins, full size forward swept wings and the ankle thruster ring.

Anyway, very interested whether the other pages (perhaps the block number section), will reveal how widespread the adoption of the VF-19F/S is in UN Spacy service, compared to the VF-19A.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

VFC--vortex flow control---is this an airframe part or a system? Technically, you could call the Hornet's LEX strake that.

Fowler flaps--unexpected, rare on military fighters. (VF-1 has them though, double-slotted, even--though I figure that's more because the F-14/F-111 have them)

LERX extension housing (vernier)fuel---hmmn. I wonder if that's the only/primary reason for them being bigger.

[Seto Kaiba]

The US-3A COD Viking comes to mind as well, as far as real world comparasions are concerned...

Not quite the same type of conversion job, since the US-3A COD Viking was a utility cargo hauler that could use some or all of its cargo space to take passengers, while the VB-25J Mitchell and the fictitious VC-19V are dedicated VIP/staff transports built for the sole purpose of shuttling around bigshots and their attendant swarm of minions.

Confirms the space specialization of the E/F/S/P types and and also gives an explanation for the revised shape or the LERX, or "extension of the (wing) glove from the strake", as they call it.

Not surprising... though I found it interesting that the VF-19's engine-mounted verniers are using diverted engine exhaust instead of propellant tanks. I wonder if that applies to the vernier ring too?

[Graham]

Not surprising... though I found it interesting that the VF-19's engine-mounted verniers are using diverted engine exhaust instead of propellant tanks. I wonder if that applies to the vernier ring too?

I would think that it does apply to the ankle vernier ring. It's mounted right on the engine, so it makes sense to use diverted engine exhaust.

I would imagine on the various 19 varients, propellant is mostly used for the triple vernier cluster that is mounted aft of the canards/cockpit.

Graham

[sketchley]

I would think that it does apply to the ankle vernier ring. It's mounted right on the engine, so it makes sense to use diverted engine exhaust.

It does (translation's there... maybe I used different terminology), as well as additional fuel injected into the exhaust.

[David Hingtgen]

Remember, a jet's exhaust is created at the last turbine stage---not the nozzle. The nozzle's purpose is to optimize the flow of the exhaust. Plenty of things can (and do) happen between the turbine and the nozzle---most commonly, that's where you put an afterburner assembly in. Less often, a secondary or even tertiary intake.

And in the VF-19S apparently, there's going to be bleed ramps or something that go to the ankle verniers.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The VF-19P looks BAD ASS, dig the head sculpt. I have not seen Dynamite 7 yet, so is it armed with a speaker pod or with a cannon like the VF-19A/F/S? Also, is it just used by Planet Zola, or UN Spacy too, and in what numbers? Is it limited production?

[DarcSyde]

Is there any place I can find the VF-1 and VF-19 Master Files?, HLJ and HMV Japan are discontinued, ebay costs way to much.

Thanks

DarcSyde

[azrael]

Is there any place I can find the VF-1 and VF-19 Master Files?, HLJ and HMV Japan are discontinued, ebay costs way to much.

VF-1 Master File and the VF-19 Master File are only sold out at HMV, HLJ, and HobbySearch and will probably be back in stock in about 2-3 weeks. You could also try ordering both from Kinokuniya and have them ship it to you. Some of the listings on Ebay are the same price if I were to import it so I don't see how Ebay would be more expensive.

[DarcSyde]

Cool,Thx for the info,

I'll wait 2-3 weeks,

Also are they worth the price?

Thanks

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Cool,Thx for the info,

I'll wait 2-3 weeks,

Also are they worth the price?

Thanks

Without a doubt, YES. There is nothing like them currently in print.

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-19P looks BAD ASS, dig the head sculpt. I have not seen Dynamite 7 yet, so is it armed with a speaker pod or with a cannon like the VF-19A/F/S? Also, is it just used by Planet Zola, or UN Spacy too, and in what numbers? Is it limited production?

Eh... a little from column A, and a little from column B. The VF-19P's supposed to be a colony market variant developed from Basara's VF-19 Custom and used by the planet Zola's patrol force. Presumably the Zola Patrol would've armed their VF-19Ps with the same type of nonlethal shock gun pod they'd equipped their VF-5000s with, rather than the standard GU-15 Gatling cannon or speaker pod launchers. The speaker packs mounted on the VF-19P's shoulders in the line art are non-standard equipment developed by a Zolan scientist named Lawrence to allow Basara to sing to the galactic whales for the purpose of attempting to communicate with the galactic whales, and were also mounted on a VF-19P that Basara "borrowed" to sing to the galactic whales.

(NB: Like all VF-19s in 7, the lineart for GERWALK mode shows the fighter holding a speaker pod launcher)

Exactly how widespread deployment of the VF-19P was... your guess is good as mine. Thus far, the only customer for the VF-19P identified in canon sources has been the Zola Patrol.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[David Hingtgen]

to allow Basara to sing to the galactic whales.

I just wanna quote that.

[Seto Kaiba]

I just wanna quote that.

Yeah, there's no way to make that NOT sound incredibly hokey... tho I went back and fixed my minor factual error about what the speakers were originally for.

[Talos]

Is there any place I can find the VF-1 and VF-19 Master Files?, HLJ and HMV Japan are discontinued, ebay costs way to much.

Thanks

DarcSyde

Amazon.co.jp has both and they should both be in stock. They ship internationally.

[Vespaeda]

My last day on Okinawa and while making my last rounds of favorite 'swag' shops, I stopped in a tremendous DVD/Manga/Porn Shop on Rt 329, Aza Kohagura, on the Haebaru Town/Naha city line.

Most DVD & manga shops have a curtained off section chock full of hardcore in the back;the flip-side are the mega-porn shops that supplement business with a healthy stock of generic sport/hobby, news and culture mag sections, still in the front as a buffer. This particular one always had a rich selection of animation art books, although tending toward Moe and girly-stuff, as well as high-end vinyl & resin figurines. I could always get up-to-date Kokufan, Scale Aero & Great Mechanics here.

Despite the bad economy, the single shelf devoted to Dengeki, Replicant & others 'mooks' had blossomed to 2 full aisles since my last visit in July. The new variety was staggering-- I was a kid in a candy shop and had to restrain my spending[gotta mail it all before my flight t'mrrow!).

I just spent ~$150 on the following:

1)Variable Fighter Master File-VF-19 Excalibur

2)Design Works:Art of Hidetaka Tenjin

3)Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works:Macross & Orguss

4)Into the Sky: Mikimoto Haruhiko Illustrations

5)Great Mechanics RGM-79 Data Book{complete GM Mobile Suit design progression up thru the Jegan/F-91 era GMs)

6)Macross Chronicle #50(last one, I think?)

Now I know how women feel about shoe shopping! I guess its "on the other foot"

[sketchley]

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553

A few more pages worth of titles and headings translated: 044-047.

Spot translations of the SPP-8 "Popcorn pack" and LPP-12 propelled laser pod also completed.

[Graham]

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553

A few more pages worth of titles and headings translated: 044-047.

Spot translations of the SPP-8 "Popcorn pack" and LPP-12 propelled laser pod also completed.

Very interesting, but not at all what I expected.

Always thought the SPP-8 would be a conventional micro-missile pod.

Graham

[Graham]

Just noticed that on the markings pages, both the A type and F/S types have wingtip verniers. Nice to have confirmation of that.

Graham

[Knight26]

Ok, I positted something similar to this the 1/60 VF-19 Kai toy thread but I will repeat it a little here. How much of the design retcons seen in the master file do people think will migrate over to the new VF-19 toy?

There are two big ones in my opinion, the common thigh the master file shows, whereas before every VF-19 after the VF-19F had a new more rounded thigh design, which I never cared for, and the wing fold design. Now the wing fold might not be possible to reproduce, those linkages within the wing would make it very weak and at the 1/60 scale much harder/more expensive to manufacture. The thigh retcon though opens up a world of possibilities, including a VF-19A/C, that uses the new common parts.

According the master file, with exception of the canopy openning (YF-19 having the split, and all others rear hinging), the 19 series all has the following common parts:

Forward fuselage (with the exception of the canopy on the YF-19, and the two seater 19B/D)

Thighs

Arms (Biceps->hands)

Chest

Crotch

IMHO these are the most important/largest most major assemblies of the 19 Series.

This also leaves the following parts different between the models.

LERX (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Vertical Stabs (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Lower Legs (YF->19D (common), 19E-19Kai (common))

Wings (YF->19D (common), 19F/S (common), 19E/Kai (unique))

Heads (YF->19D (common), all others unique)

Shields (YF->19D (common), 19E->19Kai (common))

Shoulders (YF->19D (common), 19E->19S (common), 19Kai (unique due to opennings))

Canards (YF->19E/P/Kai (common), 19F/S (common verniers))

Guns (YF->19S (common), 19Kai (unique))

With the except of the lower legs and wings, most of these are fairly minor assemblies.

What do people think? For the most part I consider these parts of minor design impact if all the others are common. If the master file design retcons do show up in the new toy, it could mean more VF-19 toys of multiple variants, but would people accept the design retcon? It might not even mean a YF-19 V3 toy, but the use of the VF-19Kai toy parts, if the list I provided proves accurate, could still easily yield VF-19A/C toys with reusing and some minimal redesign of parts from the YF-19 toy.

Graham if I am forgetting any parts reuse/uniqueness please excuse/correct me.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Knight26

[Talos]

Coincidentally, Knight, I've been working on something that could illustrate what you were saying some.

Since I liked the VF-19F/S redesign in the book, I decided to do the same thing with the Hasegawa-based VF-19A profile line art I was working on. I have all the parts that I've changed in orange here to illustrate. It's not finished, the cockpit canopy needs to be changed, along with some details on the upper fuselage, the head/laser, wings, and the gunpod (the VF-19F one lacks the five vents on the side that the YF-19's has).

[Dobber]

Actually the 19f/s have a slightly different canopy shape too in the Master file (Not as drastic as they are in the line art)....as do the Basara Types...sorry can't remember what the letter variant is for it. But I doo like the more commonality of the variants in the book.

Chris

[Talos]

Actually the 19f/s have a slightly different canopy shape too in the Master file (Not as drastic as they are in the line art)....as do the Basara Types...sorry can't remember what the letter variant is for it. But I do like the more commonality of the variants in the book.

Chris

Yep, you're right. I haven't yet added that to mine, but it is coming. It slopes instead of going horizontal like the aft-canopy of the YF-19.

Also, I believe you're thinking of the VF-19E, which was the basis of Basara's VF-19 kai.