Variable Fighter Master File VF-19 Excalibur

[Uxi]

Also, given that both the S models for the 19 and 22 were produced in limited quantities, which one is the better fighter? I always wondered why Max took a 22s in Operation Stargazer instead of an Excalibur variant.

Seems clear that the VF-22 was more capable but most likely more expensive (once the whole BDI thing came to light, to say nothing of the Sharon Apple incident on both the general feeling towards AI, if not the Ghost-X). Prototype YF-19 surviving while YF-21 did not, was probably the finally nail wrt Super Nova, but had nothing to do with Max's estimation.

The real IU answer is probably that Max is biased to like the 22's Q-rau looks over the 19's VF-1 heritage.

[Talos]

Seems clear that the VF-22 was more capable but most likely more expensive (once the whole BDI thing came to light, to say nothing of the Sharon Apple incident on both the general feeling towards AI, if not the Ghost-X). Prototype YF-19 surviving while YF-21 did not, was probably the finally nail wrt Super Nova, but had nothing to do with Max's estimation.

The real IU answer is probably that Max is biased to like the 22's Q-rau looks over the 19's VF-1 heritage.

Why would he be biased towards the VF-22? He flew the VF-1 for years and never (as far as we know) piloted a Q-Rau.

All joking aside, though, him in a Q-Rau was a DYRLism, in-universe dramatization for a movie plot.

I can foresee three reasons for the VF-19 to win the competition. One was what was mentioned before, the plane was cheaper and the YF-21 was destroyed in the battle. The second is the configuration. The YF-19 was a conventional design in most respects. The airframe lacked things such as the adaptive wings and BDI that the YF-21 had. This made it more proven and cheaper (and the safer option) right off the bat. The third would be the real-world ATF competition that Supernova is based on. The YF-21 analogue, the YF-23, also lost the competition. Like the YF-21, it was an arguably-more advanced design in the long run, but the Air Force went with the more traditional, conventional design (YF-22, which underwent a massive redesign to become the F-22A we have today).

[sketchley]

Found some quiet time (and energy) to get some more translating of the book done.

Pg 66, 67, 68: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39102#msg39102

(names of the wing armaments in the two charts, and names of all the wing ordinance)

76, 77: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39103#msg39103

(YF-19. Some interesting information on the majority of the 8 YF-19 that were created).

[sketchley]

Finished page 78: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39103#msg39103

VF-19A-D

[Graham]

Very interesting about the VF-19C being the most produced 19 variant as of 2050.

Can't wait to see what the book says about the VF-19F/S.

Graham

[ae_productions]

I have to get this book.

[sketchley]

Finished page 079: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39103#msg39103

VF-19E

It provides a little bit of insight into where the Fire Valkyrie came from.

[Graham]

Very interesting.

Graham

[Lakan]

Sweet looking plane! I miss watching macross frontier.. Whew, those macross planes still are the best lookin' fighter plane in an anime show that I seen.

[Dobber]

So is the info in the Master Files considered cannon? Like the VF-19E....everywhere else it seems that its just the fire valk or Kai or Basara custom and sounds like it was a one off prototype from the earlier series YF/VF-19a/c for the new VF-19F/S, that was given to Basara and the Sound Force. The Master Files seems to show it as a "stop gap" variant that became a regular variant.

Chris

Edited August 3, 2010 by Dobber

[sketchley]

So is the info in the Master Files considered cannon?

Please read the earlier posts in this thread. Your question has the potential of opening a messy can of worms that no one wants to see reopenned.

[Dobber]

Gotcha I was really just more curious about the the Kai/E model.

Chris

[sketchley]

Gotcha I was really just more curious about the the Kai/E model.

Chris

Ok.

In short: there's been no mention heretofore of a VF-19E outside of this publication (that I know of and memory serves). On the other hand, Kawamori Shouji is listed as the books "supervisor".

In other words: it's definitely unclear if the VF-19E is canon or not.

[Dobber]

Thanks Sketchley.

It's such a sweet looking design (to me) and would be a shame if was just a one off.

Chris

Edited August 4, 2010 by Dobber

[sketchley]

Finished pages 080 and 081: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39187#msg39187

VF-19F/S/P and VFA-19A Assault Calibur.

The VF-19F and S descriptions are underwhelming. On the other hand, the VF-19P is full of interesting stuff. The VFA-19A is eye-brow raising. On the one hand, I can see how plausible all of it's features are, and how they relate to things seen in-universe (ie: Isamu crashing into the "head" of the SDF-1), however, it still comes across as a bit rediculous, IMHO.

[sketchley]

Finished pages 082 and 083: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2553.msg39187#msg39187

VEF-19D, VEF-19E, VC-19V & VRF-19D.

I was honestly surprised by the number of typos and errors in these two pages. Were they rushed out? One of them is a bit difficult to spot if you're not paying attention, but the other handful... any good editor would've spotted them!

Anyhow, the two warning-calibur craft are "intersting". The VIP-Calibur is most interesting (hey, it's actually a logical addition), and the Recon-Calibur reminds me of the real-world UAV reconnaissance craft.

In the end, the last two get me thinking that Shinsei Industry was trying to maximize sales with all these variants, as they lost the contract for the main fighter to the VF-171. That's just me, of course, but I think it's an interesting turn of events for a company that just lost a big aerospace contract. The whole situation paints the whole Shinsei Industry, General Galaxy joint production on the YF-24 in a new light, especially what with Shinsei Industry completing the YF-24 Evolution. (Got all the angles covered if the VF-25 (etc.) doesn't pan out, as every VF manufacturer is licensing their technology.)

[Firefox]

If this is not the right section, please move. Thanks!

I just got the VF-19 Master File and realized that the CGIs of VF-19F in the book are very different than Kawamori's orignial design.

The VF-19F in the book is having the VF-19A intake, nose and canopy. I guessed they are cutting cost in CGI department, but it's kind of cool and make more sense in real world.

By the could some one show me the translation of thisbook? I remember reading it somewhere.

Many thanks!

Edited September 24, 2010 by Firefox

[Talos]

If this is not the right section, please move. Thanks!

I just got the VF-19 Master File and realized that the CGIs of VF-19F in the book are very different than Kawamori's orignial design.

The VF-19F in the book is having the VF-19A intake, nose and canopy. I guessed they are cutting cost in CGI department, but it's kind of cool and make more sense in real world.

By the could some one show me the translation of thisbook? I remember reading it somewhere.

Many thanks!

Check out the post right above your's. Sketchley's been doing a translation of some of the pages.

As for the design, read back through the thread. There's a lot of discussion on that very topic. It wasn't to cut costs, but to integrate the VF-19F/S back into the main VF-19 family. I much prefer it to the vastly different one you see in M7.

Liked it enough that I've been working on a profile view of both models, but I haven't been able to touch it in months, unfortunately. I like being able to use the VF-19A fuselage for it. It definitely enhances the design. If you look closely, though, the VF-19F canopy and intakes are actually different then the VF-19A's. The intakes are deeper and the aft part of the canopy has been reshaped.

[Firefox]

Fantastic profile, Talos. On the empenage section it shows that the vertical tail for VF-19A+ is 18% larger that the VF-19A. The subsequent model (VF-19C, D) seems to revert back to the A model. Hope it has some explanation with it.

[Firefox]

If anyone take a loser look at the line art (side profiles) on page 78, you probably noticed that the shoulder fairing for the A, B is different from the C, D as well. Does anyone know if it is explained in the text?

[Zinjo]

Can anyone post a pic of the "C" (don't have the book yet...)

[spent my money on the hybrid False Diva BD...]

The principle differences I gleaned between the "A" and the "F" is that aerodynamics were revisited in the "F" production line. The fuselage is far more streamlined in the production models.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Can anyone post a pic of the "C" (don't have the book yet...)

It's pretty much cosmetically identical to the VF-19A.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Talos]

Fantastic profile, Talos. On the empenage section it shows that the vertical tail for VF-19A+ is 18% larger that the VF-19A. The subsequent model (VF-19C, D) seems to revert back to the A model. Hope it has some explanation with it.

Thanks, glad you like them! Just need to actually sit down and finish the line art one of these days, then work on shading and coloring them. As far as the tail, there were stability problems with the VF-19A, so I think the enlarged tails were an attempt at fixing that. I don't remember why the C/D went back to the old tail.

It's pretty much cosmetically identical to the VF-19A.

Pretty much. One of the biggest differences is the wing. On the VF-19A and the YF-19, the trailing edge of the wing is angular and has an extension on the inner flaps. The VF-19C has a wing like Basara's and the VF-19P in M7, with the straight trailing edge, as seen here. http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19p/vf-19p-fighter.gif

[sketchley]

Pretty much. One of the biggest differences is the wing. On the VF-19A and the YF-19, the trailing edge of the wing is angular and has an extension on the inner flaps. The VF-19C has a wing like Basara's and the VF-19P in M7, with the straight trailing edge, as seen here. http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19p/vf-19p-fighter.gif

Nope. You're confusing the VF-19C with the VF-19E. The VF-19E is what both the Basara Nekki custom and the VF-19P are based off of (aka the image you linked to).

The VF-19A/B/C/D all have the same wing.

[Talos]

Nope. You're confusing the VF-19C with the VF-19E. The VF-19E is what both the Basara Nekki custom and the VF-19P are based off of (aka the image you linked to).

The VF-19A/B/C/D all have the same wing.

Hmm, I haven't opened my copy of MF in awhile (since I haven't been working on my profile drawings), but you're right. I checked one of my scans on my computer, the page with the Angelbirds scheme, and it has the VF-19C with the original wing. Thanks, sketchley.

[Nicaragua]

Why would he be biased towards the VF-22? He flew the VF-1 for years and never (as far as we know) piloted a Q-Rau.

All joking aside, though, him in a Q-Rau was a DYRLism, in-universe dramatization for a movie plot.

I can foresee three reasons for the VF-19 to win the competition. One was what was mentioned before, the plane was cheaper and the YF-21 was destroyed in the battle. The second is the configuration. The YF-19 was a conventional design in most respects. The airframe lacked things such as the adaptive wings and BDI that the YF-21 had. This made it more proven and cheaper (and the safer option) right off the bat. The third would be the real-world ATF competition that Supernova is based on. The YF-21 analogue, the YF-23, also lost the competition. Like the YF-21, it was an arguably-more advanced design in the long run, but the Air Force went with the more traditional, conventional design (YF-22, which underwent a massive redesign to become the F-22A we have today).

I think it was that the YF-19 was just a better overall fighter. There is a montage scene in Macross Plus where you see the scores for the fighters across several categories and the YF-19 is way ahead. Its just before (and possibly what prompts) the live ammo incident.

I think the VF-19 was just a better all round fighter while the VF-22 could be more specialised as a tactical stealth bomber for operation stargazer - just like what was proposed for the real life YF-23.

[sketchley]

I think it was that the YF-19 was just a better overall fighter.

Correct, that' why it won. (The other way to look at it is that it's art imitating life.

while the VF-22 could be more specialised as a tactical stealth bomber

Correction: special forces stealth fighter.

Time and again, the various Macross series have focused on up-close dog-fighting and neglected beyond-visual range encounters or the usage of tactical ordinance (some of it is implied, but it's rare to see it animated). Which is the greatest weak point of Macross, IMHO (despite the realism, it has a very romanticized portrayal of air-to-air (space-to-space?) combat.)

[Zinjo]

I tend to wonder if the principal reason the VF-19C was so prolific was because it was bought by colony worlds as well.

It could simply be a matter of timing. The VF-11 was the main naval fighter at the time and the VF-5000 was a popular colonial fighter, but after a while the colonies have to upgrade. So why not upgrade to the 19C which has all the avionic benefits of new technology and is optimized for atmospheric operations.

Mac 7 showed us that not all emigration fleets were willing to switch over to the 19's as main line fighters, but tended to utilize them in a special forces role as well. Particularly the E -S series' where they were optimized for space operations.

Time and again, the various Macross series have focused on up-close dog-fighting and neglected beyond-visual range encounters or the usage of tactical ordinance (some of it is implied, but it's rare to see it animated). Which is the greatest weak point of Macross, IMHO (despite the realism, it has a very romanticized portrayal of air-to-air (space-to-space?) combat.)

That may be so, but realism is often NOT dramatic...

[Seto Kaiba]

I tend to wonder if the principal reason the VF-19C was so prolific was because it was bought by colony worlds as well.

Likely... but since cost was apparently a significant factor in the decision to drop the VF-19 as the future main VF in favor of the VF-171, one has to wonder if it was only the more affluent colonies that bothered trying to equip their defense forces with VF-19s in large numbers. About the only time we see VF-19s operating in large numbers is around Earth in 2051.

So why not upgrade to the 19C which has all the avionic benefits of new technology and is optimized for atmospheric operations.

Why not? Well... there were the changes in tactical policy that occurred during the 2040s that put a greater emphasis on the use of unmanned fighters, and the emergence of a cheaper new main VF that was easier for pilots to handle, versatile, and cheaper to boot that showed up around the same time the VF-19 was starting to be adopted by various fleets. (The VF-171)

Edited October 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Nicaragua]

Time and again, the various Macross series have focused on up-close dog-fighting and neglected beyond-visual range encounters or the usage of tactical ordinance (some of it is implied, but it's rare to see it animated).

Long range ordanance seems pretty much made redundant in Macross due to the enhanced ability to track and destroy incoming missiles. It dosnt seem to be much of an effort to destroy entire volleys of close range high maneuvreability missiles so what chance do single long weapons have ?

[sketchley]

Not just missiles, but also bombs (something indicated as being present on the VF-1, but not on later craft).

Nevertheless, focusing just on missiles: they're not redundant. We see large, long range reaction warhead missiles used in both Macross 7 & F.

Anyhow, when I say tactical, I mean the bunker buster type with minimal collateral damage (if the aim is right). For example, a stealth cruise missile.

The book that this topic is about has provided some much needed insight into non-micro missile, non-super/FAST pack missiles, but the rest of the VFs are lacking (notable exceptions being the VF-1, VF-4 and VF-171).

[Nicaragua]

Nevertheless, focusing just on missiles: they're not redundant. We see large, long range reaction warhead missiles used in both Macross 7 & F.

Anyhow, when I say tactical, I mean the bunker buster type with minimal collateral damage (if the aim is right). For example, a stealth cruise missile.

We see long range missiles being used against capital sized targets but not in fighter combat - which was what you were talking about when you were complaining about the lack of long range combat.

[Talos]

Not just missiles, but also bombs (something indicated as being present on the VF-1, but not on later craft).

Don't forget, there is one example of bombs later on. The VA-3 is shown with a full load of them in Kawamori's art.

[Graham]

Long range ordanance seems pretty much made redundant in Macross due to the enhanced ability to track and destroy incoming missiles. It dosnt seem to be much of an effort to destroy entire volleys of close range high maneuvreability missiles so what chance do single long weapons have ?

Also, in the real world, long-range, i.e. Beyond Visual Range (BRV) missiles, are seldom used at beyond visual ranges, due to the mostly politically-driven Rules of Engagement (RoE), which require either (a) a firm visual ID of the target with the mark-one eyeball, rather than just an electronic Radar or IFF ID of the target and/or (b), that you be fired upon first by the enemy, before firing back.

Possibly, similar strict rules of engagement are frequently in place in the Macross universe?

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

I would assume that with overtechnology, it may be easier than ever to "fake" IFF etc, thus making it even MORE of a requirement to visually confirm identity. Perhaps that explains the very garish squadron and personalized markings we see so much?