The Spacy Thread

[anime52k8]

I think its possible that fighters may be really tiny. Don't for get that the Mercury Capsule was "worn" rather than "rode".

but the Mercury capsule didn't have to carry weapons, long range sensors, powerful engines and enough fuel to get into a dog fight. it it did was coast around the earth for a day; and it needed a 7 story rocket booster to do it.

And don't forget, this is a spacecraft that was made before miniturisation had become truly effective. I imagine that you could build a capsule today the same relative size with much more in the way of components in it. So why not space fighters?

ok, but if miniaturization is advanced to the point that you can cram engines, fuel, weapons, avionics, sensors, life support, FTL etc. onto a fighter that's the size of a mini-van why does its mother ship have to be nearly a mile long?

[sketchley]

What I mean is that they used both names in tandem, even though those two mythological figures aren't really related to each other.

Technically, they weren't created or named in tandem. The Prometheus was first seen in SG1 season 6, and the Daedalus in SGA season 2 (equivalent of SG1 season 8, if my math's right).

[eugimon]

ok, but if miniaturization is advanced to the point that you can cram engines, fuel, weapons, avionics, sensors, life support, FTL etc. onto a fighter that's the size of a mini-van why does its mother ship have to be nearly a mile long?

it still takes a lot of space to hold food, water, parts, ammunition, fuel, the people to fix crap, pilots, and what not.

And as it relates to BSG, the Galactica is less than half a mile long and the larger ships like the Pegasus were also factories in addition to being carriers capable of producing vipers.

edit: never mind, apparently they retconed the size of the Galactica to a mile or so long.

But still, the size makes sense considering that in the BSG-verse they can't just magically materialize food, water or even air. They also burn actual fuel (magically powerful and efficient but still actual fuel). And a great deal of the space inside a battlestar is taken up with mechanics. The launch catapults, the hanger bays, the repair bays, the engines, etc.

Edited September 12, 2010 by eugimon

[anime52k8]

it still takes a lot of space to hold food, water, parts, ammunition, fuel, the people to fix crap, pilots, and what not.

Then wouldn't you need space for fuel, ammunition, oxygen etc. on the fighter?

And as it relates to BSG, the Galactica is less than half a mile long and the larger ships like the Pegasus were also factories in addition to being carriers capable of producing vipers.

edit: never mind, apparently they retconed the size of the Galactica to a mile or so long.

the only number ever given for the new galactica has been the ~4,700ft number. for the original series I've seen it described as anything from 2,000ft long to almost 3 miles long. in any case, big ship.

But still, the size makes sense considering that in the BSG-verse they can't just magically materialize food, water or even air. They also burn actual fuel (magically powerful and efficient but still actual fuel). And a great deal of the space inside a battlestar is taken up with mechanics. The launch catapults, the hanger bays, the repair bays, the engines, etc.

actually I think the largest amount of space is taken up by needlessly wide hallways. seriously though, why does a ship like the Galactica need these big, roomy hangers and HUGE landing strip area when all it launches are little raptors and vipers that are all less than 30 feat long.

and again, if you can make all the electronics and mechanical components really tiny on a fighter, why do engines and all the mechanics need to be so big on the capital ship?

:edit:

didn't really want to make a second post to bring this up; as someone who doesn't know anything about star wars besides whats on screen in the films (which I haven't seen in years) could someone explain to me why the executor class needs to be 19 kilometers long?

Edited September 12, 2010 by anime52k8

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

:edit:

didn't really want to make a second post to bring this up; as someone who doesn't know anything about star wars besides whats on screen in the films (which I haven't seen in years) could someone explain to me why the executor class needs to be 19 kilometers long?

Part of the Empire wanting to visually impress and scare everyone into submission as part of the "Tarkin Doctrine'.

But after that bit of reasoning, Lucas was too busy selling Ewok dolls to worry about why such a big ship should not have pounded the puny rebel cruisers into scrap within 1 minute and why they don't have redundant bridge controls and shield generators. The original stats on the Executor was pitifully laughable too. 144 fighters and something like 150 Turbolasers!!!!! WTF!??! (I mean, even the regular mile long ISD was credited with only 72 fighters... bah!)

Edited September 12, 2010 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Ghost Train]

I think its possible that fighters may be really tiny. Don't for get that the Mercury Capsule was "worn" rather than "rode".

And don't forget, this is a spacecraft that was made before miniturisation had become truly effective. I imagine that you could build a capsule today the same relative size with much more in the way of components in it. So why not space fighters?

Man.... would have sucked if you had to take a dump.

[Dynaman]

and again, if you can make all the electronics and mechanical components really tiny on a fighter, why do engines and all the mechanics need to be so big on the capital ship?

In Galactica the proportions are off compared to a current US navy aircraft carrier, but not by much. (halways being the biggest offender).

as for the reason.

A fighter will be made just large enough to house everything, and not one bit larger. Maintenance will not be done outside of a mother ship/carrier.

The capital ship on the other hand will need to have maintenance done while under way, and room will be allocated to allow the maintenance on the ship itself and seperate maintenance bays for the small craft that it carries. All the spare parts needed will be kept in the carrier as well, including all the spares for the small craft. So every bit of space saved on the small craft has to be added to the carrier/base ship.

Once again though - Hollywood still likes to overdo it...

[frothymug]

Technically, they weren't created or named in tandem. The Prometheus was first seen in SG1 season 6, and the Daedalus in SGA season 2 (equivalent of SG1 season 8, if my math's right).

Well, my point is that there are an infinite number of naming combinations that they could have used, but they chose those two. I'm just pointing out the fact that it's just too convenient to be coincidental. If it is purely coincidence, then I look forward to the universe ending very soon.

[eugimon]

Part of the Empire wanting to visually impress and scare everyone into submission as part of the "Tarkin Doctrine'.

But after that bit of reasoning, Lucas was too busy selling Ewok dolls to worry about why such a big ship should not have pounded the puny rebel cruisers into scrap within 1 minute and why they don't have redundant bridge controls and shield generators. The original stats on the Executor was pitifully laughable too. 144 fighters and something like 150 Turbolasers!!!!! WTF!??! (I mean, even the regular mile long ISD was credited with only 72 fighters... bah!)

It helps to think about SW as a fantasy movie that happens to have technology. There's no reason for any of their tech other than whatever lucas thought was cool. Why is it that TIE fighters have no shields or jump engines but the poorly funded, ragtag rebel fleet does on all their fighters?

[eugimon]

Then wouldn't you need space for fuel, ammunition, oxygen etc. on the fighter?

Vipers don't sortie for any real length of time and even in the show they run out of both fuel and ammunition. They're not designed for staying power.

the only number ever given for the new galactica has been the ~4,700ft number. for the original series I've seen it described as anything from 2,000ft long to almost 3 miles long. in any case, big ship.

The new Galactica is supposed to be 1400m long, shorter than an ISD.

actually I think the largest amount of space is taken up by needlessly wide hallways. seriously though, why does a ship like the Galactica need these big, roomy hangers and HUGE landing strip area when all it launches are little raptors and vipers that are all less than 30 feat long.

and again, if you can make all the electronics and mechanical components really tiny on a fighter, why do engines and all the mechanics need to be so big on the capital ship?

Really? The Galactica easily has the narrowest hallways of any mainstream capital ship design. Even the hanger bay is FILLED with stuff. Busted vipers being rebuilt, parts, weapons racks etc. It also helps to remember that the Galactica is only carrying a fraction of her intended crew and viper/raptor compliment. She was a decommissioned floating museum when the Cylons attacked. Compare that to Star Trek where hanger bays are the size of football fields and there's one shuttle parked in the middle.

And Vipers don't carry jump engines, raptors do and even they can't jump very far. One of the reasons why the guts on the Galactica are so big is because she CAN jump far.

:edit:

didn't really want to make a second post to bring this up; as someone who doesn't know anything about star wars besides whats on screen in the films (which I haven't seen in years) could someone explain to me why the executor class needs to be 19 kilometers long?

And there's no justification for any of the tech in SW. It's a fantasy show. They do stuff because lucas thinks it's cool. How can light just stop after 3 feet? How can light deflect light? How does the EMpire not afford shield and jump drives but the Rebel Alliance can? Why haven't they ever gone after the Calamari when they're building capital ships for the Rebels? Why don't they install guard rails on any of their catwalks?

Edited September 12, 2010 by eugimon

[VF-19]

The hallways on the Galactica are also big enough to get a Viper through. Although, you may have to take the wings and vertical stablizer off to fit the body through the hallway. It was mentioned in the miniseries when they had to get the vipers from the museum to the operational pod.

[Ghost Train]

I sense much hate towards RDM Galactica's designs. Like with any scifi there is just some stuff that's totally off, they did strive to get a lot of things right though:

- Contrasting analog controls on the Mk II Viper vs. the 100% digital systems on the Mk VII, and why the latter proved to be vulnerable and the former still useful.

- Usage of RCS on Vipers and Raptor to maneuver with a full range of motions consistent with vacuum. i.e. no banking or any atmospheric manuevers we would see in a modern day atmospheric fighter.

- Less than perfect radio voice quality

- No magic shields, deflectors and what not on capital ships, armor still rules the day.

[Tober]

My favorite design is the Lambda Shuttle from RotJ

The Snowspeeder is my favorite fighter design.

I also liked the Black Boa and Copperhead from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.

[Uxi]

Oh yeah, I'd be remiss if I failed to mention my favorite starfighter design:

[taksraven]

Now for some true retro......

Simple, yet stylish AND with a very unique launch method. I always thought that the energy being generated by the friction off those rails was such a waste of power, gotta love it though......

I love these shots too. Zentradi having fun with the ship...

And, of course, some alien technology from the era. Stunning stuff for the time.....

[Scream Man]

They named the ships Daedelus and Prometheus in SG? Is there some kind of reason those two ships are so closely related in naming conventions, or are they just drawing inspiration from SDF-Macross? (or did SDF-Macross draw inspiration from an earlier work?)

Well Prometheus was their first ship, and the only one of it's class. The Daedelus was the first 'Daedelus Class" ship, which also featured the Apollo, Odyssey and the George Hammond.

[Kelsain]

It helps to think about SW as a fantasy movie that happens to have technology. There's no reason for any of their tech other than whatever lucas thought was cool. Why is it that TIE fighters have no shields or jump engines but the poorly funded, ragtag rebel fleet does on all their fighters?

I dunno. I always thought this was a bit of a copout. In the movies, the rebel fighters weren't really any stronger than the TIE fighters. Most X, Y, and A's (don't recall ever seeing a B-wing shot) popped with one shot too. Maybe two hits for dramatic effect. Sometimes the structure of the fighter survived after the first shot, but just long enough to veer off & crash.

[Wanzerfan]

Speaking about Star Wars...

I give you the Ebon Hawk.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[Mog]

The Hawk's okay; it was functional and served its purpose in the game.

But it's pretty obvious they were doing an homage to the Millenium Falcon.

The Hawk isn't anything to write home about.

[Phyrox]

Oh yeah, I'd be remiss if I failed to mention my favorite starfighter design:

I had the original tie fighter game, and I swear the defender had a noticably different "canopy" geometry than other craft in the tie family. So why do all of the images of it that appear in later works after the original ignore this?

[Vepariga]

I dunno. I always thought this was a bit of a copout. In the movies, the rebel fighters weren't really any stronger than the TIE fighters. Most X, Y, and A's (don't recall ever seeing a B-wing shot) popped with one shot too. Maybe two hits for dramatic effect. Sometimes the structure of the fighter survived after the first shot, but just long enough to veer off & crash.

true,but most SW fighter craft are only equipped with deflector shields,not Energy shields,with deflectors it doesnt protect against direct hits,when the rebel craft get wacked from TIE's they are usually dead on the engines. The 2nd Death Star had a energy shield hence they had to pull up or they would have all slammed into an invisible wall and there was one on the Hoth base too that prevented orbital bombardment,in other words the energy shields that really protect are bloody huge.

[taksraven]

I had the original tie fighter game, and I swear the defender had a noticably different "canopy" geometry than other craft in the tie family. So why do all of the images of it that appear in later works after the original ignore this?

Not the worst moment in Tie-Fighter SW history. Anybody seen the few editions of the early Star Wars comics where they were drawn BACKWARDS, so the thrust was coming out of the canopy and the "Gun" was the engine? Bad stuff.

Taksraven

[Keith]

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

true,but most SW fighter craft are only equipped with deflector shields,not Energy shields,with deflectors it doesnt protect against direct hits,when the rebel craft get wacked from TIE's they are usually dead on the engines. The 2nd Death Star had a energy shield hence they had to pull up or they would have all slammed into an invisible wall and there was one on the Hoth base too that prevented orbital bombardment,in other words the energy shields that really protect are bloody huge.

I just ignore the SW 'canon' when it comes to Imperial military tech and capabilities. Was the Hoth base that much bigger than an Executor? Why can't the Executor have an 'energy shield' too that can stop all bombardments?

Why can't they 'energy shield' that small vent on the 1st Death Star? Or have multiple grates with openings smaller than the smallest missile in the exhaust vent (or even a bit more kinks and angles)?

[reddsun1]

to all the wing commander fans, what do think about this gorgeous machine.

(also, let us have a moment of silence for the poor English Electric Lightnings that had to die to make this crap )

Now THAT was a disappointing film. Deserves a mention in the "worst sci-fi film ever" thread, too. Truly some of the most wretchedly ugly spaceship designs ever to grace a screen, big or small.

Edited September 13, 2010 by reddsun1

[Dynaman]

Why can't they 'energy shield' that small vent on the 1st Death Star? Or have multiple grates with openings smaller than the smallest missile in the exhaust vent (or even a bit more kinks and angles)?

Nobody thought a small one man fighter was a threat - or else they would have a tighter defense.

Real tanks have been built with big honking exhaust ports on the side (WW2 French) and lots of other design flaws no need to worry about that one on the Death Star, if Luke had not been there (last Jedi, yada yada) then no one would have hit the thing. I'd like to know who placed the tractor beam controls though.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Dynaman

[reddsun1]

One way I thought the BSG remake fell short of the original was in the design of the military ships. This advanced, spacefaring culture has a military with what, basically 1 capital ship design, 2 fighter designs, and 1 support vessel design? The Raptor was a pretty lame "successor" to the original Shuttle; while it (Shuttle) was not sexy, it was more practical and believable--in essence a big space-going truck, with a boxy design to accomodate people, supplies, whatever needs hauling. The Raptor, on the other hand, is less convincing as a support vessel; shouldn't have tried to make it a jack-of-all-trades (didn't they use it for elec warfare too?). It's like going from a deuce and a half, to a PT cruiser.

Edited September 13, 2010 by reddsun1

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Nobody thought a small one man fighter was a threat - or else they would have a tighter defense.

Real tanks have been built with big honking exhaust ports on the side (WW2 French) and lots of other design flaws no need to worry about that one on the Death Star, if Luke had not been there (last Jedi, yada yada) then no one would have hit the thing. I'd like to know who placed the tractor beam controls though.

I know I know. Too small to hit, no one will get thru yadda yadda. Look its still dumb! Real world designs had to trade off weight and performance. A 99 gajillion ton Death Star doesn't have to worry about 100 tons more armour.

BTW, did you know that for the Battleship Yamato, they were paranoid enough to have an armoured grate inside the funnel? They didn't want a 'Star Wars' type lucky bomb/shell flying into the machinery spaces thru the exhaust gap so they put an 8 inch+++ thick grate over the opening.

[Zor Primus]

Funny how when this movie first came out I thought we'd actually make it there by the year of the movie title...the Discovery and Leonov from 2010: The Year We Made Contact.

[sketchley]

Funny how when this movie first came out I thought we'd actually make it there by the year of the movie title...the Discovery and Leonov from 2010: The Year We Made Contact.

Ah... that was a good movie, if you ignore that it's a sequel to a much, much greater movie (as a sequel, it sucks).

Nevertheless, I really liked the spacewalks in that movie, and especially the use of a ballute to slow it's speed.

The music is also great - listen to Gundam 0083, and you'll hear it, too!

[Wanzerfan]

I just ignore the SW 'canon' when it comes to Imperial military tech and capabilities. Was the Hoth base that much bigger than an Executor? Why can't the Executor have an 'energy shield' too that can stop all bombardments?

Why can't they 'energy shield' that small vent on the 1st Death Star? Or have multiple grates with openings smaller than the smallest missile in the exhaust vent (or even a bit more kinks and angles)?

Probably because the energy requriements of such a shield would drian the ship's reactor rather quickly. That, and the heat it would most likely throw off would make placement of such a system in a starship rahter problematic. Edited September 13, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[lechuck]

Nothing beats the elegance and gracefulness combined with power that is the Galaxy class, especially that stardrive section.

Another favourite of mine is the Prometheus class and its multi vector attack mode.

And last but not least, shuttlecraft type 11. The sleekest one out there.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Probably because the energy requriements of such a shield would drian the ship's reactor rather quickly. That, and the heat it would most likely throw off would make placement of such a system in a starship rahter problematic.

There was never any mention of heat and shields in the SW universe that I knew of*. And would the Hoth base have a reactor bigger and more powerful than the honking huge Executor?

*Don't see the shield causing heat problems in Endor either and the DS2 was like a gazillion times bigger than an SSD.

OK ok, this is a non-debate in the sense that SW tech doesn't make sense. As I said, I gave up trying to rationalise it from the start.

LeChuck : Galaxy is nice but I think in many angles, the Sovereign Class looks better. More of a sleek aggressive muscle look.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[reddsun1]

Don't mean to sound like a broken record. But sometimes, you can't help but come back to the classics. There are times when everything just seems to fall into place: the proportions, the stance from just about any angle, whatever it may be; but the x-wing just stays right up there near the top for me.

Sure, it's got practically NO rearward vision. But it's like the Spitfire of Space--it just looks the part. You can tell it's a thoroughbred, and it's meant to be a scrapper.

[F-ZeroOne]

and just a few hours ago, i came across this at a toyshop. i think it's from godzilla though so maybe it wasn't a spaceship. looks a bit like a mig ferret:

Not 100% sure but I think its from the Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla films, the most recent ones - it was used (in pairs or threes, I think) to transport MechaGodzilla around. Which also meant that each craft had a pretty impressive thrust/weight ratio seeing as the biological Godzilla tips the scales at about the 55,000 tonne mark...