Most successful VF

[sketchley]

Something to get out of the way first:

The most successful VFs in the real world are:

VF-1

VF-25

VF-19 (correct me if I'm wrong here, as I don't collect toys/models)

Canon in-series information:

VF-1: 5,459+ made

VF-4: 8,245+ made

VF-19: 1,000 indicated, approximately 2,000+ implied.

Megaroad Fleets: 30 made, 2 destroyed during constructed. 28 launched.

New Macross/Island Cluster fleets: 25 known to have been launched.

Number of craft in the Macross 7 fleet (inferable to other New Macross Fleets):

VF: 1,800

VA: 600

VB: 9

VE: 120

Uraga: 20 (65-75 VF in each; M7 era)

Guantanamo: 45 (up to 70 VF in each; MF era)

Northampton: 120

The information implies that there are (if a Megaroad class fleet has half as many VFs as a New Macross fleet, and the Island Cluster class has the same amount - I figure the balance is filled by unmanned craft):

VF: 70,200

VA: 23,400

VB: 351

VE: 4,680

Impressive numbers, eh? One must keep in mind, in addition to the oversimplification of numbers per fleet, that the numbers are only for super long range emigration fleets. It's not much of a stretch to double that number, for things like emigrant planet defence forces and so on.

Now, of those large numbers, the majority were launched in the period that the VF-11 and VF-171 were the main fighters.

Therefore, I figure the following:

The most successful VF is the VF-11, with 35,000 to 45,000 made.

The second most successful VF is the VF-171: 25,000 to 35,000 made.

It's unclear how many of the VF/A-14 were produced, but I'd say a number equal or greater than that of the VF-4 (say, 10,000).

The same for the VF-5000 (10,000 or so made).

The other thing to look at is Variable Attackers. Macross Chronicle states that the successor to the VA-3 was the VB-171. So, despite the VB-4, VB-5 and so on, the VA-3 was (and still is!) the main attacker for a good 30+ years. Therefore:

The VA-3 is the most successful attacker, with a 15,000 to 20,000 made.

The VB-171 is the second most successful attacker, with around 3,500 to 5,000 made (if I'm reading Macross Chronicle correctly, it was introduced around 2050. Therefore, it's been around for almost a decade).

These are, of course my thoughts and interpretations of the data. I'm curious what you're interpretation is. Just keep in mind that it's implied that there are around:

100,000 VF made in total

35,000 VA

1,000 VB

10,000 VE

PS: what got me thinking about this? Talk in the "Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur" thread that the implied 2,000 VF-19 being made is too high a figure. It got me asking how many VF have been implied as being made by canon information.

[Graham]

Interesting topic and I concur that the VF-11 is likely the most produced VF in terms of sheer numbers in service.

If certain fleets such as the Macross 7, ended up eventually replacing all their VF-11 with the VF-19 on a 1-1 basis, post-Protodeviln war (as seems to be infered by the recent Hi-Metal information refering to the 19 as a mainstay fighter), the total number of VF-19 produced could easily reach higher than 2000+. Although I feel that due to the cost and complexity of the VF-19, a 1-1 replacement was unlikely. However, given that the VF-19 is a far more capable fighter than the VF-11, it may have been decided that a smaller quantity, say something like a 1-2 replacement was acceptable (all pure speculation on my part).

Not sure I agree with the estimate figures for the VF-171 though, they seem a bit on the high side. Just my gut feeling is that in the 2050s, manned craft numbers have been trimmed drastically, so that there is only a skeleton force of manned VFs and unmanned craft (Ghosts) now make up the bulk of the forces. Although again, this likely varies, as we have seen from fleet to fleet and planet to planet.

Please feel free to correct me if any of the above speculation on my part has already been contradicted by officially published info.

Graham

[ae_productions]

Hey! How do you guys get this information. Is there a specific sourcebook you use? This is a great topic!

[sketchley]

the total number of VF-19 produced could easily reach higher than 2000+.

Agreed, however I've based that extrapolation on the time that it took to reach the 1,000th, total time "mass produced", minus the lack of it being adapted as the main fighter.

Of course, VFMF:VF-19 states with the VF-19P that Emigration fleets and Immigrant Planets continue manufacturing the VF-19P under contract (or something along those lines), so the number of VFs (P variant mostly) could be significantly higher. This is in agreement on your speculation of a 1:1 or a 1:2 replacement for certain fleets.

Not sure I agree with the estimate figures for the VF-171 though, they seem a bit on the high side. Just my feeling is that in the 2050s, manned craft numbers have been trimmed drastically,

It may be. Nevertheless, we haven't been provided a total number of ships in the M Frontier or Galaxy Fleets. So, I've based the numbers on a doubling of the number of carriers from a New Macross fleet, halved by the unmanned craft, as some fleets have more manned craft than others (M Frontier) and others have much more unmmanned craft than manned (M Galaxy), coupled with the number deployed to emigrant planets.

Nevertheless, the VF-4 had roughly 10,000 craft produced in it's 10 year run as main fighter, and for the last portion of it, it was the main fighter in conjunction with the VF-5000. So, I can easily see at least 20,000+ being made. 35,000 may be a little high. But on the other hand, I can't see more than that being made.

Hey! How do you guys get this information. Is there a specific sourcebook you use? This is a great topic!

Various books. Such as:

Macross Chronicle

Variable Fighter Master File (VF-1 and VF-19)

This is Animation Special: Macross Plus

[sketchley]

Before I forget:

VFMF:VF-19 Excalibur states that the "standard" number of forces on an emigrant planet are:

16 Space Cruisers

48 Stealth Space Destroyers

9 Space Carriers

about 600 VF-11C (described as the main force)

more than 100 VF-14A (described as a self-defence force)

So... that's a lot more variable craft, pending on the number of emigrant planets.

I should probably revise the "most successful variable attackers" to:

VA-3

VF-14A (or VF/A-14?)

VB-171 (I strongly feel that this could be 2nd, mostly because due to it's commonality with the VF-171, it'd be adopted as the main attacker/bomber quite quickly. Though considering it's only been around for, at most, a decade, where the VF/A-14 has been around for close to 30 years...)

[Noyhauser]

Interesting topic and I concur that the VF-11 is likely the most produced VF in terms of sheer numbers in service.

If certain fleets such as the Macross 7, ended up eventually replacing all their VF-11 with the VF-19 on a 1-1 basis, post-Protodeviln war (as seems to be infered by the recent Hi-Metal information refering to the 19 as a mainstay fighter), the total number of VF-19 produced could easily reach higher than 2000+. Although I feel that due to the cost and complexity of the VF-19, a 1-1 replacement was unlikely. However, given that the VF-19 is a far more capable fighter than the VF-11, it may have been decided that a smaller quantity, say something like a 1-2 replacement was acceptable (all pure speculation on my part).

Not sure I agree with the estimate figures for the VF-171 though, they seem a bit on the high side. Just my gut feeling is that in the 2050s, manned craft numbers have been trimmed drastically, so that there is only a skeleton force of manned VFs and unmanned craft (Ghosts) now make up the bulk of the forces. Although again, this likely varies, as we have seen from fleet to fleet and planet to planet.

Please feel free to correct me if any of the above speculation on my part has already been contradicted by officially published info.

Graham

I agree with you here. It seemed to me as if the VF-11 is the F-16 of its day (and what the F-111 was intended to be originally.) The VF-4's disappointing cost and performance caused the proliferation of partial replacements: the VF-9, the VA/F-14, and the 3000/5000. However by 2030 it was clear that this was costly and the performance of these stopgaps weren't at all satisfactory. The VF-11 appeared at a time to replace an entire generation of fighters affordably and with colony fleets reaching their maximum extent. The VF-19 also seems to be costly and with the threat diminished, it wasn't procured to the same extent. It may have remained a elite fighter, and a whole generation of low cost alternatives appeared instead to replace the VF-11 (the VF-171, VF-19P and Ghosts.) In reality the VF-19 may have been a repeat of the VF-4. Also consider that the main threat to colonies and macross fleets are Zentredi, or scattered rebels, which offer a pretty consistent threat capability. Thus there isn't so much a need for continually producing high capability fighters.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Noyhauser

[azrael]

I agree with you here. It seemed to me as if the VF-11 is the F-16 of its day (and what the F-111 was intended to be originally.) The VF-4's disappointing cost and performance caused the proliferation of partial replacements: the VF-9, the VA/F-14, and the 3000/5000. However by 2030 it was clear that this was costly and the performance of these stopgaps weren't at all satisfactory. The VF-11 appeared at a time to replace an entire generation of fighters affordably and with colony fleets reaching their maximum extent. The VF-19 also seems to be costly and with the threat diminished, it wasn't procured to the same extent. It may have remained a elite fighter, and a whole generation of low cost alternatives appeared instead to replace the VF-11 (the VF-171, VF-19P and Ghosts.) In reality the VF-19 may have been a repeat of the VF-4. Also consider that the main threat to colonies and macross fleets are Zentredi, or scattered rebels, which offer a pretty consistent threat capability. Thus there isn't so much a need for continually producing high capability fighters.

The VF-3000 wasn't a VF-4 replacement, more like a VF-1 extension that didn't pick up steam. The Chronicle notes that the VF-11, was the first true replacement for the VF-1 as an all-environment fighter (jack-of-all-trades, master-to-none-deal), which is why it was loved.

[sketchley]

(...) The VF-4's disappointing cost and performance caused the proliferation of partial replacements: the VF-9, the VA/F-14, and the 3000/5000.

You'll have to read up on your Macross history: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2264.msg35166#msg35166

Probably the greatest error is the part about the VF/A-14. Namely, it was involved in a competition with the VF-11 to determine the next main fighter of the UN Forces to take over from the VF-4 / VF-5000 main fighter combi.

I remember reading somewhere that the competition between the VF-11 and VF-14 was called project "Nova", but I'm not sure if it was a canon source or not.

[jenius]

I remember reading somewhere that the competition between the VF-11 and VF-14 was called project "Nova", but I'm not sure if it was a canon source or not.

Perfect, now we need "Macross Plus Zero"! It can open with a scene of a VF-4 kicking rear.

[azrael]

Probably the greatest error is the part about the VF/A-14. Namely, it was involved in a competition with the VF-11 to determine the next main fighter of the UN Forces to take over from the VF-4 / VF-5000 main fighter combi.

I remember reading somewhere that the competition between the VF-11 and VF-14 was called project "Nova", but I'm not sure if it was a canon source or not.

It appeared in the VF-14's entry in the Chronicle.

[hulagu]

Perfect, now we need "Macross Plus Zero"! It can open with a scene of a VF-4 kicking rear.

I wish they would refine the VF-4 battroid appearance at some point. It looks somewhat awkward, like a crude afterthought.

[sketchley]

I wish they would refine the VF-4 battroid appearance at some point. It looks somewhat awkward, like a crude afterthought.

*cough* VF-14 *cough* Fz-109

[Noyhauser]

You'll have to read up on your Macross history: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2264.msg35166#msg35166

Probably the greatest error is the part about the VF/A-14. Namely, it was involved in a competition with the VF-11 to determine the next main fighter of the UN Forces to take over from the VF-4 / VF-5000 main fighter combi.

I remember reading somewhere that the competition between the VF-11 and VF-14 was called project "Nova", but I'm not sure if it was a canon source or not.

My bad, I haven't seen the Macross Chronicle stuff... thinking about it now its just a bad error on my part; the VF-14 was of the VF-11's vintage, not a 2020 fighter. Regardless the overall point stands; the VF-4 was just too expensive as a mainline fighter, couldn't really cover all the mission roles required and was partially supplanted by a series of other fighters, or never fully replaced the VF-1 in service. The VF-11 offered an airframe that was clearly superior in all areas and affordable for a large number of users.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Noyhauser

[Seto Kaiba]

I wish they would refine the VF-4 battroid appearance at some point. It looks somewhat awkward, like a crude afterthought.

It is a bit ugly, isn't it? I'm not too fond of the VFs that transform such that the shoulders don't look like they have a full range of motion... the Pheyos is another one that's on my list for that. Still, the current VF-4 battroid mode isn't the original one... it used to look a lot more like a VF-1 battroid, with a head turret similar to that of the VF-1SR Attack Valkyrie.

Regardless the overall point stands; the VF-4 was just too expensive as a mainline fighter, couldn't really cover all the mission roles required and was partially supplanted by a series of other fighters, or never fully replaced the VF-1 in service.

Isn't that a Robotech-ism? It might just be that I'm exhausted after a long day at work, but I don't remember any Macross publication that calls the VF-4 too expensive as a main VF or not capable enough to cover a variety of mission roles. Just going by what we see of them in the canon depictions, the U.N. Spacy seems to like them just fine all the way up through the 2040s. Hell, they were even used as a test platform for newly developed spirita weapons during the war with the Varauta Army. The U.N. clearly still thought they were useful, since they did keep upgrading them to keep them in service as late as 2047.

(This is, of course, to say nothing of the parallel world continuity of Macross II... in which the VF-4 Siren was enormously successful. It remained in frontline service for over fifty years with evolutionary upgrades, and it made several technological "firsts"... including being the first VF in all of Macross to canonically mount a beam rifle, and the second to have its own complement of pilot-controlled drone craft, the first being the VF-2SS Valkyrie II from the same continuity)

EDIT: To clarify the above, I'm talking production order in terms of shows... chronologically the VF-4ST Strike Siren was first out with pilot-controlled drones

The VF-11 offered an airframe that was clearly superior in all areas and affordable for a large number of users.

Clearly superior in all areas? That's going to be a hard sell to make... after all, the VF-11 only carried missiles in its super parts, while the VF-4 didn't need super parts at all. Plus the VF-4 also had, by all accounts, six hardpoints for under-wing munitions, of which we never really see the VF-11 with any. Of course, there's the issue of the VF-11 having somewhat more main engine power, but the VF-4 also has two other sets of engines for which thrust ratings aren't known at the present time (a set of ramjets and a set of rocket boosters). The VF-4 has integrated forward-facing guns, while the only beam gun on the VF-11 faces rearward and it has to use its gunpod for any close-range engagements in all modes.

There ya go... I've poked a couple pretty sizable holes in the VF-11's alleged superiority in all areas, and I'm not even trying yet.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

Isn't that a Robotech-ism? It might just be that I'm exhausted after a long day at work, but I don't remember any Macross publication that calls the VF-4 too expensive as a main VF or not capable enough to cover a variety of mission roles. Just going by what we see of them in the canon depictions, the U.N. Spacy seems to like them just fine all the way up through the 2040s. Hell, they were even used as a test platform for newly developed spirita weapons during the war with the Varauta Army. The U.N. clearly still thought they were useful, since they did keep upgrading them to keep them in service as late as 2047.

Well....costs could be seen as a reason. We do know that the VF-4 wasn't quite as good in performance as the VF-1 in atmosphere, hence the VF-5000. So they're double-dipping on fighters by having the VF-5000 and the VF-4, both acting as the main fighter at the same time. By having the VF-11 as the main fighter, they would have eliminate cost of double dipping.

[Zinjo]

I'd have to say produced units + length of service = success.

Especially in the era before the mid 2040's when it appears that emigration fleets start to gain more and more autonomy from the central government and the Spacy. By 2050, the idea of central control over the colony worlds and fleets has essentially evaporated and a federation of nation states evolves.

Essentially the Macross 7 fleet chose to agree with Spacy that they'd adopt the VF-19 has their main fighter, however other colony worlds and fleets may not have accepted the recommendation.

In 2059 it has become common practice that colonies and emigration fleets develop their own fighter aircraft based on federally funded R&D prototypes and are not bound by what the main Spacy fleets adopt. I believe it is most likely that federal Spacy fleets under Earth control will adopt the VF-24 as their main fighter, while other colonies and fleets may license the VF-25 or the VF-171EX fighters. The possibility also now exists that worlds may only license some of the technology that went into the VF-25 or VF-171EX and use it to upgrade their existing fighter squadrons.

The possibilities are wide open now.

Thank you Kawamori

[sketchley]

I haven't seen anything indicate that the VF-4 has a high cost-performance ratio, either.

The one thing one must keep in mind about the VF-4 is that it was designed as a space fighter, at the sacrifice of atmospheric performance. Thus the adoption of the VF-5000 - a fighter optimized for atmospheric performance at the sacrifice of space performance.

Anyhow, it's all in the link I posted.

[Seto Kaiba]

We do know that the VF-4 wasn't quite as good in performance as the VF-1 in atmosphere, hence the VF-5000. [...] By having the VF-11 as the main fighter, they would have eliminate cost of double dipping.

But that, in and of itself, raises another question... why would the U.N. Spacy return to using a jack-of-all-regimes fighter like the VF-11 when they know the vast majority of the combat the fighters would see would be in space? One can only wonder why they went with an all-regime unit like the VF-11 and then went right back to regime-optimizing variants in the next generation of main VFs. Perhaps the VF-11 was every bit as underwhelming in other space conflicts as the ones attached to the 37th Colony Fleet were against the Varauta Army's VF/VA-14-derived mecha, designs based on a fighter that excelled in space performance.

I haven't seen anything indicate that the VF-4 has a high cost-performance ratio, either.

As far as I know, the whole business about the VF-4 having an unacceptably high cost-performance ratio is a Robotech-ism... their explanation for why the VF-X-4 (which they call YF-4) is conspicuously absent after the "Macross Saga".

On reflection, I think he probably got that idea from the VF-5000 entry on the Compendium Wiki. It doesn't look like the article's been updated to account for the fact that the VF-5000 shared the main fighter designation with the VF-4 due to their being regime-optimized. Right now, it's still using the statement that the VF-5000 ousted the VF-4 as main VF due to its lower costs.

(For me, it's kind of strange seeing all this stuff that's come to light in Chronicle about the VF-4 and VF-5000 being a space-and-atmosphere tag team like the VF-2SS and VF-2JA, since I don't recall seeing anything explicit to that effect prior to Chronicle... of course, it could just be that the focus of my research was on the parallel world continuity exclusively until recently.)

I definitely agree that the VF-11 and VF-171 are probably the most prolific VFs out there in the main continuity, though I wouldn't be so hasty to discount the VF-14, since it supposedly enjoyed a great vogue with colony planets, emigration fleets, and survey fleets after its introduction.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

But that, in and of itself, raises another question... why would the U.N. Spacy return to using a jack-of-all-regimes fighter like the VF-11 when they know the vast majority of the combat the fighters would see would be in space?

Are we so sure that they would see combat in space a majority of the time? What happens when they find suitable planets? The UN wanted flexibility. They were not getting that with the VF-4/VF-5000.

I definitely agree that the VF-11 and VF-171 are probably the most prolific VFs out there in the main continuity, though I wouldn't be so hasty to discount the VF-14, since it supposedly enjoyed a great vogue with colony planets, emigration fleets, and survey fleets after its introduction.

I won't discount it either, but considering its usage, I'd say it would probably be <10,000.

[Graham]

Hell, they were even used as a test platform for newly developed spirita weapons during the war with the Varauta Army. The U.N. clearly still thought they were useful, since they did keep upgrading them to keep them in service as late as 2047.

Whoa!..............where are you getting this information about the VF-4 being used as a test platform for newly developed spiritia weapons? First I've heard of this?

Graham

[Noyhauser]

Isn't that a Robotech-ism? It might just be that I'm exhausted after a long day at work, but I don't remember any Macross publication that calls the VF-4 too expensive as a main VF or not capable enough to cover a variety of mission roles.

In the Macross Compendium notes for the VF-5000 and the VF-9 (which I was at the time the go-to resource before Chronicles) it was clear the popularity of these fighters was in part based on their affordability vis-a-vis the Lightning. I suspect this may have been stated explicitly in M3. The Chronicles stated explicitly that it wasn't effective in the atmosphere.

Just going by what we see of them in the canon depictions, the U.N. Spacy seems to like them just fine all the way up through the 2040s. Hell, they were even used as a test platform for newly developed spirita weapons during the war with the Varauta Army. The U.N. clearly still thought they were useful, since they did keep upgrading them to keep them in service as late as 2047.

Um the platform they used for newly developed spirita weapons was this:

Kinda looks like a VF-11 to me. Nothing suggests at all that the VF-4 continued after 2030 (actually everything stated contradicts this), unless you consider the option to use them as a playing unit in a Macross VFX definitive proof that its a mainline fighter.

Clearly superior in all areas? That's going to be a hard sell to make... after all, the VF-11 only carried missiles in its super parts, while the VF-4 didn't need super parts at all. Plus the VF-4 also had, by all accounts, six hardpoints for under-wing munitions, of which we never really see the VF-11 with any. Of course, there's the issue of the VF-11 having somewhat more main engine power, but the VF-4 also has two other sets of engines for which thrust ratings aren't known at the present time (a set of ramjets and a set of rocket boosters). The VF-4 has integrated forward-facing guns, while the only beam gun on the VF-11 faces rearward and it has to use its gunpod for any close-range engagements in all modes.

There ya go... I've poked a couple pretty sizable holes in the VF-11's alleged superiority in all areas, and I'm not even trying yet.

And yet despite all you've written, they replaced the VF-4 with the VF-11 which was stated to be superior in Macross chronicle. How superior? "shows abilities exceeding that of the VF-4, VF-5000 and so on in each regime, and was adopted as the UN Forces' main force VF" superior.

And having superparts isn't a negative in my mind at the least. They are considered an integral part of the design and not considering them is kinda self serving. A real world comparison would be to restrict any discussion on modern day fighters (F-15, 16) capabilities to their clean configuration. In reality it gives the fighter the flexibility that the VF-4 was lacking with. On weapons its tough to compare the VF-4's beam cannon versus the VF-11's gunpod... but we do know that every single fighter after the VF-4 carries one. If anything that suggests that beam weaponry exclusively was not considered sufficient.

So there ya go, thats how pretty sizable holes look like empty assertions.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Noyhauser

[Seto Kaiba]

Whoa!..............where are you getting this information about the VF-4 being used as a test platform for newly developed spiritia weapons? First I've heard of this?

Okay, on review of the material I may be slightly mistaken. It's somewhat unclear whether or not the so-called "mind system" in Macross 7 Trash is a spirita weapon or if the technology's just similar. Either way, it's basically a beam weapon that runs on emotional energy. The system was apparently installed on a flight of VF-4's for testing, where it resulted in the destruction of one of the aircraft and the death of its pilot. The manga's kind of vague as to dates, but as it was what prompted 1st Lt Mahara Fabrio to retire at the start of the manga, it was presumably in either early 2046 or late 2045.

Either way, they didn't exactly have as shortage of VF-4's if the test flight was anything to go by. There were a good two or three dozen of 'em out at once. (Not quite as bizarre as seeing the classic ARMD design mingling with other ships in the 37th Colony fleet, or a QF-3000E converted into a two-seat leisure spacecraft... but it's close)

[Seto Kaiba]

In the Macross Compendium notes for the VF-5000 and the VF-9 (which I was at the time the go-to resource before Chronicles) it was clear the popularity of these fighters was in part based on their affordability vis-a-vis the Lightning.

Well, clearly that's going to have to be updated/corrected with the new information, now isn't it? Makes me wish I was a faster translator, but you can't have everything in life...

Um the platform they used for newly developed spirita weapons was this:

Refer to my previous post... I was talking about the mind system from Macross 7 Trash, which is either a spirita weapon or at least extremely close to one in principle, being that it's a system for collecting and weaponizing negative emotional energy. It's from Macross 7 Trash, one of the canon manga titles from the main continuity.

Nothing suggests at all that the VF-4 continued after 2030

Nothing at all... except, y'know... the Macross Compendium, Macross Chronicle, Macross 7 Trash... quite a list when you think about it. It wasn't the MAIN variable fighter, but there's no denying that it was still in service as late as 2047. You might want to check your facts before posting so we don't have to wade through a big list of corrections each time.

And yet despite all you've written, they replaced the VF-4 with the VF-11 which was stated to be superior in Macross chronicle. How superior? "shows abilities exceeding that of the VF-4, VF-5000 and so on in each regime, and was adopted as the UN Forces' main force VF" superior.

Does it say "exceeds in every category" or "completely surpasses"? No. It doesn't. In fact, it's quite vague about how the VF-11 supposedly surpasses the VF-4 and VF-5000, though the previous paragraph seems to imply it surpasses them in flight performance, not necessarily other fields like armament. As such, most of my points still stand.

Also, it doesn't help to throw something sketchley pointed you to earlier today at me and act as though you'd known it all along.

And having superparts isn't a negative in my mind at the least. They are considered an integral part of the design and not considering them is kinda self serving.

Isn't it? It makes the fighter a bigger target, impairs stealthiness (of course that kind of goes out the window anyway when you're talking giant robots), and without them the VF-11C is armed only with a gunpod and rear-facing laser. Compare that to the fighters that don't need super packs to carry a normal combat load, like the VF-4, VF-5000, VF-14, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22, etc.

In reality it gives the fighter the flexibility that the VF-4 was lacking with. On weapons its tough to compare the VF-4's beam cannon versus the VF-11's gunpod... but we do know that every single fighter after the VF-4 carries one. If anything that suggests that beam weaponry exclusively was not considered sufficient.

Ooookay... so your assertion here is that a fighter that doesn't have/use wing hardpoints and relies exclusively on micro-missiles stored in its super packs is less versatile than a fighter that has semi-conformal missiles recessed into the airframe AND multiple hardpoints for carrying a wide variety of munitions? To quote an old robot phrase... "Does not compute".

Anyway, the idea that the VF-4's guns are insufficient falls flat on two fronts. One, there is another, rather successful fighter that also relied on beam armaments... the VF-27. Also, there are VF-4 variants that can (and do) use 30mm gatling guns instead of beam cannons. Though I'm not sure how credible it is (and would suggest treating it as unfounded speculation until such time as we source it), I've also heard some noise about some sources saying the VF-4 can also take a gunpod. Maybe sketchley can shed some light on that last note, since he's done a few of the Great Mechanics articles.

As a side note, the Zentradi Army might also want a word with you for your "beam guns alone won't cut it" position...

So there ya go, thats how pretty sizable holes look like empty assertions.

Not to rain on your parade, but your self-congratulations here seem somewhat premature.

Just because the VF-11 eventually replaced the VF-4 as the main variable fighter doesn't necessarily mean it was better in every way... just that it was an improvement in the fields the U.N. Spacy felt needed improving or focusing on. (Which, of course, the kind people at Chronicle have helpfully pointed out for us)

Edited July 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

Bloody hell, I just realized I never actually responded to the thread topic post... better late than never, right? (and I promise I won't multipost like this again... having kind of an airhead afternoon)

Therefore, I figure the following:

The most successful VF is the VF-11, with 35,000 to 45,000 made.

The second most successful VF is the VF-171: 25,000 to 35,000 made.

It's unclear how many of the VF/A-14 were produced, but I'd say a number equal or greater than that of the VF-4 (say, 10,000).

The same for the VF-5000 (10,000 or so made)

Now, I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion that the VF-11 Thunderbolt is almost certainly the most widely produced VF out there. It did, after all, have the good fortune to enter service right around the time Earth started launching the large-scale long distance colony missions. If we take the 37th to be typical of those fleets, most of the ones launched before the VF-171 was put into production probably had upwards of 1,500 VF-11's... and that's not even close to their theoretical maximum capacity. (Given the carrying capacity numbers in Chronicle and elsewhere, it would appear that they're operating at about a fifth of their maximum capacity)

Likewise, I agree that the second most successful VF is probably the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, but I'm hesitant to estimate the numbers that high since it was introduced in that era where colony fleets were allowed to determine their own defenses. Some fleets nominally went for an all-Ghost approach, and presumably others opted to continue producing the fighters they were already in the process of introducing (like the VF-19).

I'd agree with the VF/VA-14 wholeheartedly, since that supposedly enjoyed a great vogue with the colony market as a space fighter, and was used on survey missions and whatnot as well. Not my favorite VF, but undeniably effective given that it lost out in Project Nova and STILL managed to do extremely well for itself... even after being captured and jammed full of alien hardware.

The one area where I'd probably differ is in the VF-5000... it was a lost-cost atmospheric counterpart to the VF-4, which means that since they seem to favor repulsing the Zentradi in space, stocking up on 'em probably wasn't a high priority. It makes me wonder if the VF-5000G and T-G used by the Zola Patrol are upgraded military units that were surplussed out, or new models made for the colony market.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Noyhauser]

Does it say "exceeds in every category" or "completely surpasses"? No. It doesn't. In fact, it's quite vague about how the VF-11 supposedly surpasses the VF-4 and VF-5000, though the previous paragraph seems to imply it surpasses them in flight performance, not necessarily other fields like armament. As such, most of my points still stand.

Also, it doesn't help to throw something sketchley pointed you to earlier today at me and act as though you'd known it all along.

Ah, because I did? What evidence prior to the Chronicle's publication contradicted the fact that the VF-11 was superior? And what actual evidence do you have (besides your inferences on weapons or whatever) that actually state the VF-4 was superior in some way to the VF-11?

The thrust of all the material states the VF-4 was unsatisfactory in some way (whether it be cost or capability) requiring a supplementary fighter during its service and a wholesale replacement by the VF-11. I really doubt anybody would claim otherwise.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Noyhauser

[Graham]

Refer to my previous post... I was talking about the mind system from Macross 7 Trash, which is either a spirita weapon or at least extremely close to one in principle, being that it's a system for collecting and weaponizing negative emotional energy. It's from Macross 7 Trash, one of the canon manga titles from the main continuity.

Thanks for clarifying the source.

I must admit that Trash is not something I really paid much attention to or liked.

Graham

[Talos]

I don't have the time at the moment for a full reply, but there are a couple VF-4 points I would like to make.

Yes, it does not have FAST packs, but when it comes down to it, isn't the VF-4 basically a standard VF (read: VF-1) with the DYRL Strike pack built in? It has the rockets and the twin beam cannons built in, which means it can use them in atmosphere too. I forget which book it is that has it, but there's a shot of what could be a possible VF-X-4, looking for all the world like a VF-1 with FAST packs attached to the wings. It was the same book as the one that had the reference to Meltrandi wrestling as a sport in post-SW1 Earth.

The other one is the carriage of 12 full-size missiles faired into the body without using a single hardpoint. We're not talking mini-missiles here, but AMM-1-size (in fact, I think they're even called AMM-1..., despite being bigger then what we see on the VF-1) missiles. Not even a VF-19 has that.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Talos

[sketchley]

In the Macross Compendium notes for the VF-5000 and the VF-9 (which I was at the time the go-to resource before Chronicles) it was clear the popularity of these fighters was in part based on their affordability vis-a-vis the Lightning. I suspect this may have been stated explicitly in M3. The Chronicles stated explicitly that it wasn't effective in the atmosphere.

Ahh. I understand. It's not that the VF-4 was stated as being expensive, but it's implied that it's cost-performance is worse than the other VFs that were developed roughly at the same time.

And having superparts isn't a negative in my mind at the least.

Nods. Mind you, Macross Chronicle and other sources give the impression that craft that need super parts are less desireable or otherwise looked down-upon in-universe. But I think that stems more from the super parts being needed for the extra fuel to have a decent mission range, rather than the additional firepower that they provide.

[sketchley]

Yes, it does not have FAST packs,

Technically the non-Studio Nue timeline has a FAST pack equipped VF-4 appear in one of the games. Of course, said game also has it appear in a battroid form that looks suspiciously like the VF-1. That said, no one will disagree with you that it doesn't have FAST packs in the Studio Nue timeline.

but when it comes down to it, isn't the VF-4 basically a standard VF (read: VF-1) with the DYRL Strike pack built in?

Yes and no. (Or something right or left). MC translation of the VF-4 article: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2503.msg37738#msg37738

and the bit in the Game and Advanced section: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2481.msg37165#msg37165

I forget which book it is that has it, but there's a shot of what could be a possible VF-X-4, looking for all the world like a VF-1 with FAST packs attached to the wings. It was the same book as the one that had the reference to Meltrandi wrestling as a sport in post-SW1 Earth.

That would be "Macross Perfect Memory".

The other one is the carriage of 12 full-size missiles faired into the body without using a single hardpoint. We're not talking mini-missiles here, but AMM-1-size (in fact, I think they're even called AMM-1..., despite being bigger then what we see on the VF-1) missiles. Not even a VF-19 has that.

They're not called the AMM-1. As far as I've come across, they're referred to as "Half Embedded* Type Long Range Missiles"

*Alternatively, Semi-Recessed could also be used.

[sketchley]

More VF-4 fun:

I was skimming over the VF-14 description in "Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works", and his notes on the design say that it is the successor to the VF-4. Now, there are two ways to interpret that: the in-universe successor, or the out-of-universe design successor (both VF-4 and VF-14 are visually based off of the SR-71).

In universe, it makes a bit of sense, as both the VF-4 and 14 have enlarged fuselages that allow for a greater amount of fuel to be stored. The VF-14 also has a load of "large" missiles stored within the engine nacelles (Bifors AAM-01S, if anyone's asking), so they have comparible armaments, too.

[Talos]

Technically the non-Studio Nue timeline has a FAST pack equipped VF-4 appear in one of the games. Of course, said game also has it appear in a battroid form that looks suspiciously like the VF-1. That said, no one will disagree with you that it doesn't have FAST packs in the Studio Nue timeline.

Oh yes, I'm quite aware of the VF-4 Siren being equipped with VF-1-style FAST Packs (as well as dual gunpods, if I recall correctly). I was referring to the Lightning III in this case.

Yes and no. (Or something right or left). MC translation of the VF-4 article: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2503.msg37738#msg37738

and the bit in the Game and Advanced section: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2481.msg37165#msg37165

I was speaking more to pure configuration, actually. The boosters and beam cannons of the Strike VF-1 integrated into the airframe, along with the 12-missile armament. All without using a single one of the plane's hardpoints or degrading its ability to operate in atmosphere. I see that as a great strength of the design. One bit I noticed in your translation. Is the caption of Hikaru's VF-4 in there really referring to it as a VF-4G? Also, the prototype designations there totally sound like WWII RLM ones. VF-4 Vx prototypes, then a VF-4A-0 trial production run mirror RLM practices.

That would be "Macross Perfect Memory".

Yeah, that's the one. Thank you.

They're not called the AMM-1. As far as I've come across, they're referred to as "Half Embedded* Type Long Range Missiles"

*Alternatively, Semi-Recessed could also be used.

I swear I saw something online mentioning them. I remember, because when I saw that I did a double-take and then complained about it later to Seto and a couple others since it didn't make any sense (since the two missiles look nothing alike).

Edited July 22, 2010 by Talos

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks for clarifying the source.

I must admit that Trash is not something I really paid much attention to or liked.

No problem... I didn't like Macross 7 Trash very much either, but I've got a good memory for details, and it just sort of jumped out at me when I read it, along with the classic ARMD in the 37th Colony Fleet and Mahara's partner's converted QF-3000E.

And what actual evidence do you have (besides your inferences on weapons or whatever) that actually state the VF-4 was superior in some way to the VF-11?

Inferences nothing, we have hard facts about the weapons... and the ability to carry a diverse assortment of munitions for a wide variety of operations was one of the major selling points of the main VF that replaced the VF-11 too... the VF-171 Nightmare Plus.

The thrust of all the material states the VF-4 was unsatisfactory in some way (whether it be cost or capability) requiring a supplementary fighter during its service and a wholesale replacement by the VF-11. I really doubt anybody would claim otherwise.

Now you're injecting an unsupported inference onto what the sources actually say. Yes, the VF-4 was found to be lacking in atmospheric performance, but as Chronicle said it was a fighter that was geared towards space combat anyway... so I guess you could call it deficient by design. The VF-4 and VF-5000 were, as Chronicle said, replaced not because they were bad or inadequate, but because the U.N. Spacy wanted to have an all-regime fighter again. It's just that simple.

Nods. Mind you, Macross Chronicle and other sources give the impression that craft that need super parts are less desireable or otherwise looked down-upon in-universe. But I think that stems more from the super parts being needed for the extra fuel to have a decent mission range, rather than the additional firepower that they provide.

One could argue that the move toward internal munitions bays and micro-missile launchers was in all likelihood a move intended to eliminate, or at least reduce the need for, super parts. They do go so far as to point out that (conventional) super parts were considered undesirable on the VF-19 prior to improvements in the active stealth system that relaxed the restrictions a bit.

Technically the non-Studio Nue timeline has a FAST pack equipped VF-4 appear in one of the games. Of course, said game also has it appear in a battroid form that looks suspiciously like the VF-1. That said, no one will disagree with you that it doesn't have FAST packs in the Studio Nue timeline.

Indeed... that's the VF-4{S/SP/ST} Siren from Macross: Eternal Love Song, one of the two NEC PC Engine games created to fill in part of the gap between the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie and Macross II: Lovers Again OVA. It did, as you've said, have a set of optional FAST packs where it kept (among other things) its funnels.

(Yes, you read that right, the VF-4 Siren's super parts had Gundam-style funnels, though computer-controlled like the GN Fangs from Gundam 00 instead of by psycommu like normal funnels in the Universal Century)

Oh yes, I'm quite aware of the VF-4 Siren being equipped with VF-1-style FAST Packs (as well as dual gunpods, if I recall correctly). I was referring to the Lightning III in this case.

No, the VF-4 Siren never had dual gunpods... it did, however, have a VERY large beam rifle oddly reminiscent of the Zeta Gundam's hyper mega launcher... (possibly brought about by the fact that the OVA's mechanical designers had worked on Zeta Gundam, Gundam ZZ, and Char's Counterattack before working on Macross II and its prequel games)

[Graham]

Mind you, Macross Chronicle and other sources give the impression that craft that need super parts are less desireable or otherwise looked down-upon in-universe. But I think that stems more from the super parts being needed for the extra fuel to have a decent mission range, rather than the additional firepower that they provide.

I think it's a bit of both.

No matter how many external hard points a VF has or how many internal weapons bays, FAST Packs are going to provide extended combat persistence (endurance), in terms of additional weapons and fuel, thus allowing the VF to stay in the fight longer. Simply put, a VF without FAST Packs is going to run out of weapons and fuel (in space), sooner than a VF with FAST Packs.

Graham

[Graham]

One could argue that the move toward internal munitions bays and micro-missile launchers was in all likelihood a move intended to eliminate, or at least reduce the need for, super parts. They do go so far as to point out that (conventional) super parts were considered undesirable on the VF-19 prior to improvements in the active stealth system that relaxed the restrictions a bit.

The problem with internal weapons bays, is that while they do help with stealth, they are always going to be limited in the number and type of ordnance they can carry, due to limited internal volume.

Thus a VF that relies soley on internal weapons bays (and internal fuel, in space), will always have to break-off combat sooner than a VF with additional weapons and fuel mounted on external hardpoints and FAST Packs.

Frankly, I doubt we wil ever see an end for the need for FAST Packs or optional Armor for VFs in the Macross universe.

I know if I were in a VF-19F/S facing massed foes, I'd much rather have FAST Packs fitted, giving me 200+ missiles, rather than relying only on my 12 internal missiles in the leg bays.

Graham

[sketchley]

I was speaking more to pure configuration, actually.

Ok.

Is the caption of Hikaru's VF-4 in there really referring to it as a VF-4G?

Gets out MC binder.

Flips to VF-4 page.

If you're referring to "The fighter form of the VF-4G (Ichijo's craft is pictured).", then that was a mistake on my part. It should be "The fighter form of the VF-4 (Ichijo's craft is pictured)." [Translation also corrected.]

Also, the prototype designations there totally sound like WWII RLM ones. VF-4 Vx prototypes, then a VF-4A-0 trial production run mirror RLM practices.

That's how they appear. The designations are also not limited to the VF-4, and crop up with other variable craft from time to time.

I swear I saw something online mentioning them. I remember, because when I saw that I did a double-take and then complained about it later to Seto and a couple others since it didn't make any sense (since the two missiles look nothing alike).

I've been making a missile resource for the Macross role playing game that I'm running. The canon missile names and information is in green: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics/Missiles.htm#Medium_Range_Missiles

There are a lot of missiles referred to as AIM or something similar (AMM, AOM, ASM, HAIM, CHM, SACHM, AAMS, AAMM). So, it could have been a similar looking name.

What I find most intriguing is that the VF-14, the successor to the VF-4 in-universe (MC entry confirms it), has AAM-01S. Not quite AIM-01, but remarkably similar. Perhaps the VF-4's missiles are AAM-01?