HG and Robotech Debates

[Keith]

This was also done in the U.S. release of Gunbuster. One song was completely removed from the show due to its extremem likeness of Chariots of Fire, I believe. I've always wanted to re-edit that and put it back in.

You'll also note that this was done more out of paranoia than anything, although the scene in question was curiously left out of the movie compilation. This is actually the first I've heard of 0083 missing music, if any release were going to have music edits done, I'd think it would have been F91.

[Renato]

You'll also note that this was done more out of paranoia than anything, although the scene in question was curiously left out of the movie compilation.

Did they leave in the scene where they explode the giant bomb and use the sound of Slimer getting "busted" from the movie Ghostbusters? Because that one is obviously a sample directly taken from the film, thus a way more serious infringement than BGM which sounds similar to Chariots of Fire (which could be used for the sake of parody, which is what that scene obviously was).

Edited April 25, 2011 by Renato

[Keith]

Did they leave in the scene where they explode the giant bomb and use the sound of Slimer getting "busted" from the movie Ghostbusters? Because that one is obviously a sample directly taken from the film, thus a way more serious infringement than BGM which sounds similar to Chariots of Fire (which could be used for the sake of parody, which is what that scene obviously was).

Yup, that's still there.

[Beltane70]

Did they leave in the scene where they explode the giant bomb and use the sound of Slimer getting "busted" from the movie Ghostbusters? Because that one is obviously a sample directly taken from the film, thus a way more serious infringement than BGM which sounds similar to Chariots of Fire (which could be used for the sake of parody, which is what that scene obviously was).

From what I understand, sound effects are not copywritable, so they're actually safe, there.

[Dynaman]

From what I understand, sound effects are not copywritable, so they're actually safe, there.

No - you can not use sound effects without permission. But as with all things in the law it is a complicated issue. Licensing sound effects (or cross licensing) seems to be fairly easy though - many movie gunshots from the sixties (from different studies) all sounded pretty much the same for example.

[sketchley]

The Gundam 0083 composer, Mitsuo Hagita, blatantly ripped off several composers and used tracks lifted from movies like (...) 2010,

A-HA!

Now only to find confirmation of the Evangelion copy of the James Bond song from OHMSS...

[Renato]

From what I understand, sound effects are not copywritable, so they're actually safe, there.

They sampled, without crediting, directly from the film itself. It is not jut "a sound effect", it is an entire couple of seconds worth of segment from the actual audio track of the movie. If they had taken a sound effect from a generic library, there would probably be no problem.

Yup, that's still there.

Well, then, maybe Hikuro can tell Bandai to look in the mirror before casting the first stone...

[TheLoneWolf]

I don't think Bandai Visual has anything to be concerned about. While sampling the Ghostbusters audio clip is an infringement of Columbia Pictures' copyright, it's such a trivial infringement that it would probably be deemed de minimus, thus not actionable. The fact that Gunbuster has been around for 23 years and Columbia Pictures still hasn't noticed or cared only serves to reinforce a de minimus infringement. Also, it's unlikely that Bandai Visual knowingly contributed to this infringement or is even aware of it. Furthermore, Bandai's removal of the "Chariots of Fire" song actually demonstrates that they've attempted to be proactive in preventing copyright infringement. Good faith efforts like that reflect well upon Bandai.

If future releases of Gunbuster end up missing that Ghostbusters audio clip, we'll now know who to blame.

And to get this thread somewhat back on track, the cease and desists that Hikuro's fandubs have received may indicate that Bandai Visual and/or Toei currently possess DYRL's distribution rights outside of Japan.

[Darkwater]

Sound effects are usually sold in a collection of audio files/CD/tapes that are either licensed or sold on a one time buyout basis, and they're usually sold to multiple production companies. When they don't have the time/money to have someone go out and create these effects from scratch, they usually just get it from a library. Chances are Gunbuster and Ghostbusters just used the same effect from the same library.

[Keith]

Sound effects are usually sold in a collection of audio files/CD/tapes that are either licensed or sold on a one time buyout basis, and they're usually sold to multiple production companies. When they don't have the time/money to have someone go out and create these effects from scratch, they usually just get it from a library. Chances are Gunbuster and Ghostbusters just used the same effect from the same library.

Which would make sense "if" they sampled only the proton pack sound, or the slimer sound. However, with both together...

[Darkwater]

Which would make sense "if" they sampled only the proton pack sound, or the slimer sound. However, with both together...

Actually if it were more than one, then it would seem more likely that both productions used the same SFX package. It would be a lot of work to obtain a split track audio master of Ghostbusters to steal only two sound effects.

[HappyPenguins]

blah blah blah, go back to talking about Robotech gosh dangit, don't you know theres so much happening right now? So much to talk about, how dare you not talk about Robotech!

[Legioss]

If Bandai and/or Toei has DYRL, that would explain HG's standard "confusion" excuse as to who has those rights. Whenever HG doesn't have the rights to some part of Macross they say "Nobody knows who has it. There's so many lawsuits flying around all over the place. It's so confusing!" or they'll give some vague double meaning answer implying a lie like "Does HG have the rights to use Macross characters in new animation?", "Yes, HG has all the rights to Robotech. Yes we can use Macross characters. Didn't you see the comics?"

[TheLoneWolf]

Sound effects are usually sold in a collection of audio files/CD/tapes that are either licensed or sold on a one time buyout basis, and they're usually sold to multiple production companies. When they don't have the time/money to have someone go out and create these effects from scratch, they usually just get it from a library. Chances are Gunbuster and Ghostbusters just used the same effect from the same library.

That is true. But the Ghostbusters audio clip that's sampled in Gunbuster isn't limited to foley, it also included voicework from Ivan Reitman, who provided Slimer's groans and gasps.

[macross_fan99]

So how does HG find new Robotech fans these days? Or are they just holding on to a dedicated bunch from 25 years ago?

I find it hard to believe that they could be bringing in many new fans with the animation alone since it really hasn't aged very well and there is nothing new to get people's attention or make Robotech a household name. Plus even the people who DO watch the animation aren't guaranteed to become fans.

So, any new fans or a small dedicated group that is slowly dying out?

[Jasonc]

So how does HG find new Robotech fans these days? Or are they just holding on to a dedicated bunch from 25 years ago?

I find it hard to believe that they could be bringing in many new fans with the animation alone since it really hasn't aged very well and there is nothing new to get people's attention or make Robotech a household name. Plus even the people who DO watch the animation aren't guaranteed to become fans.

So, any new fans or a small dedicated group that is slowly dying out?

I personally don't know, or have even heard of any new Robotech fans coming in since Shadow Chronicles came out. That said, there maybe a few, but it doesn't seem like the movie warranted a new resurgence in Robotech. In fact, since Shadow Chronicles has been out, it seems like their core fanbase has been shrinking. It seems evident by the smaller amount of people on their website.

[Seto Kaiba]

So how does HG find new Robotech fans these days? Or are they just holding on to a dedicated bunch from 25 years ago?

Beats me... during my six year tenure on Robotech.com and my time on other Robotech fan-sites, I didn't see much in the way of new fans coming into the fanbase. My experiences with the fan community pointed to "re-discovery" as the most common reason people would become active in the Robotech fandom. Sure, every now and then you'd get someone who'd been introduced to the Robotech series by a friend or just picked it up at random, but the vast majority of new arrivals were people who'd seen Robotech when it was on TV in the 80's or 90's and looked it up out of idle curiosity.

The "new" fans who'd rediscovered Robotech seldom lasted long though... most of them would either get bored and leave after a few months, or would get banned for acting their age (28-36, typically). Just two years after Robotech.com opened, Harmony Gold had already managed to drive away most of the long-time "veteran" fans, and had already made a good start in whittling down the casual fanbase to just its most devoted, obsessed, and fanatical members. Nowadays, they seem to have run out of old viewers who rediscover the series and are focusing on their largely unsuccessful attempts to bring new fans into the fanbase by peddling Robotech in countries progressively further down the development index.

So, I guess you could say that they're mostly hanging onto a dedicated bunch from 13-25 years ago, but they're not really doing a great job of hanging onto that crowd either.

So, any new fans or a small dedicated group that is slowly dying out?

The latter, definitely... the only piece of new animation they've put out (Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles) failed to cause the huge influx of new fans they were hoping it would, and generally flew under the radar.

[Smegalot]

I agree that the Robotech fanbase is dieing. Just check out the numbers on the poles (I admit that I joined up as a member years ago) it is just over 2000 in number, which is less than half, compared to the numbers that they had years ago, and I bet the number is dropping still. Ah the end of a franchise. To watch them purposely squash it.....And push the fans away...I guess HG must be a tax write off

I agree with Seto, that I think that they though RTSC would bring fans in to want to see the orginal series. But it is harder to get the younger generation to watch the older anime. My partners kids only want to see the new stuff. And I don't think they are are wanting to see the Robotech, or my older stuff, like the orginal Gundam and Votoms. They seem to want the to see stuff like Bleach and Naruto and the Teen ones like Vampire Knight.

It is interesting to read about DYRL, saying that HG really don't have distribution rights for it in some way. I mean people would love to see a properly and professionally dubbed version unlike the one ADV did for Macross. I personally think they did the orginal Macross bad to make the RT version seem better.

But it does make sense why that have not released it and how they seem to be having so many issues with it. Maybe they can't really distribute anything Anime in Macross related themselves. Only Robotech Macross is what they are aloud to distribute. Which makes complete sense in some ways. As people have said before Macross Plus and Macross II seem to of made it through their grasp, and are still on sale. Mind you I am only guessing this theory. SO I could be completely way off.

Enough of my rambling I have to go back to work...

Edited April 27, 2011 by Smegalot

[Jasonc]

I agree that the Robotech fanbase is dieing. Just check out the numbers on the poles (I admit that I joined up as a member years ago) it is just over 2000 in number, which is less than half, compared to the numbers that they had years ago, and I bet the number is dropping still. Ah the end of a franchise. To watch them purposely squash it.....And push the fans away...I guess HG must be a tax write off

I agree with Seto, that I think that they though RTSC would bring fans in to want to see the orginal series. But it is harder to get the younger generation to watch the older anime. My partners kids only want to see the new stuff. And I don't think they are are wanting to see the Robotech, or my older stuff, like the orginal Gundam and Votoms. They seem to want the to see stuff like Bleach and Naruto and the Teen ones like Vampire Knight.

It is interesting to read about DYRL, saying that HG really don't have distribution rights for it in some way. I mean people would love to see a properly and professionally dubbed version unlike the one ADV did for Macross. I personally think they did the orginal Macross bad to make the RT version seem better.

But it does make sense why that have not released it and how they seem to be having so many issues with it. Maybe they can't really distribute anything Anime in Macross related themselves. Only Robotech Macross is what they are aloud to distribute. Which makes complete sense in some ways. As people have said before Macross Plus and Macross II seem to of made it through their grasp, and are still on sale. Mind you I am only guessing this theory. SO I could be completely way off.

Enough of my rambling I have to go back to work...

Luckily, Macross Plus and II got through. Those came out before all this drama, and it's possible that had all of the court cases never happened, more Macross may have made it. It's not a for certain, but I am happy to be able to get Plus and II.

I am kinda weary of calling Robotech "dead". I would definitely say cold and stagnant, and with the shrinking fan base out there, it may seem dead, but I don't know if dead. At least not yet. If you wanna thank anyone for that, you can thank...

Kevin McKeever, for not knowing what marketing is, and for making unprofessional comments and snide remarks to and about fans to help drive away people who would care about the franchise.

Robotech Moderators, for making most normal fans of the franchise embarrassed to be Robotech fans with utter stupid actions, comments, and ideas. Also for banning a large amount of fans, keeping the numbers thin.

Remaining Robotech staff, for epically failing at delivering anything worthwhile, and for totally disregarding what the fans want, and doing only what they want.

Heck, I'm surprised some here aren't thanking these people for castrating their own franchise they supposedly support. So, there you go. tip your hat to anyone of those listed, or if you have, or know your own person you can think of, give them the courtesy to thank them for a job well done in pushing Robotech into a deeper and deeper hole.

[Smegalot]

The RT still has some left. I would of loved to see RTSC move on to a newer series (whic is what it should of done), and will stop calling it dead. But it does need something to get it going again. As a company they just need to produce stuff and get it out there. It seems the only way any franchise survives these days. the best franchises continually bring out new stuff to keep the punters interested, Star Wars, Transformers, G.I. Joe etc. they have gained new fans as they are always looking to get newer fans and not rely on older ones to keep it going. I think it is just the beast of business. To make money and gain interest you must produce "product" to keep people interested. Just hoping on word of mouth doesn't work these days. You have to get it out to new people, and not rely on forums and fan discussions to keep any franchise going.

Man am I rambling on here....

[Atharun]

The RT still has some left. I would of loved to see RTSC move on to a newer series (whic is what it should of done), and will stop calling it dead. But it does need something to get it going again. As a company they just need to produce stuff and get it out there. It seems the only way any franchise survives these days. the best franchises continually bring out new stuff to keep the punters interested, Star Wars, Transformers, G.I. Joe etc. they have gained new fans as they are always looking to get newer fans and not rely on older ones to keep it going. I think it is just the beast of business. To make money and gain interest you must produce "product" to keep people interested. Just hoping on word of mouth doesn't work these days. You have to get it out to new people, and not rely on forums and fan discussions to keep any franchise going.

Man am I rambling on here....

How true this is. When you look at franchises that depended on small fan communities for hopes of a revival, you will see many failures. Take Gargoyles for example. It has a small but passionate fanbase that had hoped for some sort of revival. Even Greg Wesiman has stated he wanted it to be revived but would need Disney to be willing to do so. When the company owning the property won't take action then all you're left with is people who can hope but not much else.

[terry the lone wolf]

Beats me... during my six year tenure on Robotech.com and my time on other Robotech fan-sites, I didn't see much in the way of new fans coming into the fanbase. My experiences with the fan community pointed to "re-discovery" as the most common reason people would become active in the Robotech fandom. Sure, every now and then you'd get someone who'd been introduced to the Robotech series by a friend or just picked it up at random, but the vast majority of new arrivals were people who'd seen Robotech when it was on TV in the 80's or 90's and looked it up out of idle curiosity.

The "new" fans who'd rediscovered Robotech seldom lasted long though... most of them would either get bored and leave after a few months, or would get banned for acting their age (28-36, typically). Just two years after Robotech.com opened, Harmony Gold had already managed to drive away most of the long-time "veteran" fans, and had already made a good start in whittling down the casual fanbase to just its most devoted, obsessed, and fanatical members. Nowadays, they seem to have run out of old viewers who rediscover the series and are focusing on their largely unsuccessful attempts to bring new fans into the fanbase by peddling Robotech in countries progressively further down the development index.

So, I guess you could say that they're mostly hanging onto a dedicated bunch from 13-25 years ago, but they're not really doing a great job of hanging onto that crowd either.

The latter, definitely... the only piece of new animation they've put out (Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles) failed to cause the huge influx of new fans they were hoping it would, and generally flew under the radar.

Yeah like China or Brazil. Y'know third world nations...

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree with Seto, that I think that they though RTSC would bring fans in to want to see the orginal series. But it is harder to get the younger generation to watch the older anime. My partners kids only want to see the new stuff. And I don't think they are are wanting to see the Robotech, or my older stuff, like the orginal Gundam and Votoms. They seem to want the to see stuff like Bleach and Naruto and the Teen ones like Vampire Knight.

Eh, that wasn't a theory... to revitalize the Robotech franchise with an influx of new fans by making Robotech accessible to a much younger target audience of anime enthusiasts was one of the things Harmony Gold was hoping to accomplish with Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. As you know full well, it's a goal they failed miserably to achieve. Between the contents of the movie and their frequent and increasingly frantic attempts to defend it from criticism, the Shadow Chronicles movie has succeeded in driving more fans away from the franchise than it could have ever hoped to bring in. There's nothing that illustrates just how little Harmony Gold understands the anime industry quite as much as the realization that the Bleach and Naruto crowd is the very audience that they're targeting with Shadow Chronicles... the only thing they could think of to appeal to that target audience was completely out-of-place fanservice.

Luckily, Macross Plus and II got through. Those came out before all this drama, and it's possible that had all of the court cases never happened, more Macross may have made it. It's not a for certain, but I am happy to be able to get Plus and II.

Likewise... and Macross II being my all-time favorite, it certainly doesn't hurt my feelings that I can at least get that one and some of its related publications via legitimate channels here in the states.

I am kinda weary of calling Robotech "dead". I would definitely say cold and stagnant, and with the shrinking fan base out there, it may seem dead, but I don't know if dead. At least not yet. If you wanna thank anyone for that, you can thank... [...]

To be honest, I would've pronounced Robotech dead back in 1987 after the Robotech movie and Robotech II: the Sentinels both crashed and burned for various reasons. Yes, those two failed features were Harmony Gold's first and last honest attempts at a continuation of Robotech. Everything that came after... from Robotech 3000 and Shadow Chronicles, to the novelizations, comic books, and video games... is nothing more than Harmony Gold beating a dead horse on the off-chance that the shaking will fool some legendarily thick people into believing that it's still alive.

Yeah like China or Brazil. Y'know third world nations...

Okay, I'll just say it... I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not, but explaining why would be treading a bit close to the ever-prohibited subject of politics.

[mrhillz]

I thought Robotech had a little bit of a revival about 10 years ago with the DVD releases, was it just an adrenaline shot that wore off after a few years?

Edited April 27, 2011 by gaiden

[Legioss]

It was Toonami with it's anime and an 80s fad. Yeah, it wore off. The new series never happened. It takes a new series for a revival of Robotech.

In addition to that, you got to consider that in the 90s there were 4 VHS releases (Palladium, Streamline, Streamline Perfect Collection, and new FHE), an LD release, Exo-Squad toy reissues, new novels, new RPGs, new comics, new soundtrack, a Robotech convention, and an attempt at making a new series. Compare that to this decade. Isn't it about the same?

Edited April 27, 2011 by Legioss

[taksraven]

I personally don't know, or have even heard of any new Robotech fans coming in since Shadow Chronicles came out. That said, there maybe a few, but it doesn't seem like the movie warranted a new resurgence in Robotech. In fact, since Shadow Chronicles has been out, it seems like their core fanbase has been shrinking. It seems evident by the smaller amount of people on their website.

That's also due to the banhammer being waved around to deal with voices of discontent.

[MIsaHayase]

That's also due to the banhammer being waved around to deal with voices of discontent.

I personally don't have the time to go to each of my forums everyday and sort through all of the individual topics. I need a forum like this one and my other fave that emails me either daily with posts or emails me when there are new posts of interest in topics I have posted in. I met a few folks over on the Robotech Chat room, but now we spend more of our time on yahoo im or just texting each other.

[Beltane70]

If Bandai and/or Toei has DYRL, that would explain HG's standard "confusion" excuse as to who has those rights. Whenever HG doesn't have the rights to some part of Macross they say "Nobody knows who has it. There's so many lawsuits flying around all over the place. It's so confusing!" or they'll give some vague double meaning answer implying a lie like "Does HG have the rights to use Macross characters in new animation?", "Yes, HG has all the rights to Robotech. Yes we can use Macross characters. Didn't you see the comics?"

I thought the confusion with the rights to DYRL was with who outside Japan had the rights.

[Legioss]

I thought the confusion with the rights to DYRL was with who outside Japan had the rights.

The alleged confusion and yes, that's I'm talking about.

[Gubaba]

The alleged confusion and yes, that's I'm talking about.

But it was AnimEigo that said they couldn't untangle the DYRL rights, not HG.

[Duke Togo]

But it was AnimEigo that said they couldn't untangle the DYRL rights, not HG.

^^^This

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought Robotech had a little bit of a revival about 10 years ago with the DVD releases, was it just an adrenaline shot that wore off after a few years?

Nah... at least, I definitely wouldn't call what happened back then a "revival" of the Robotech franchise. It didn't have anything that wasn't already available in previous releases, and didn't do much to draw the attention of the average anime hobbyist. It was, like most Robotech releases, something that appealed primarily to people who had already seen the series. Things died down quite swiftly once they exhausted the interest of the nostalgic folks who picked it up because they remembered it from "back in the day".

In addition to that, you got to consider that in the 90s there were 4 VHS releases (Palladium, Streamline, Streamline Perfect Collection, and new FHE), an LD release, Exo-Squad toy reissues, new novels, new RPGs, new comics, new soundtrack, a Robotech convention, and an attempt at making a new series. Compare that to this decade. Isn't it about the same?

Compared to this past decade, the 90's were a pretty good time to be a Robotech fan. Sure, we've had about the same number of reissues of the same old TV series and direct-to-video movie spawned by another false start, but that's really about it. The comics were every bit as awful then as they are now, but there were a hell of a lot more of them and several attempts at an ongoing series instead of just a handful of limited-edition miniseries titles. The 90's also had the novelizations, only a select handful of which got re-released. Really, all Harmony Gold and Robotech have to show for the 00's is a pair of mediocre video games, overpriced toys, just a few dreadful comic books, and an overlong intro cutscene passing itself off as a stand-alone movie.

That's also due to the banhammer being waved around to deal with voices of discontent.

Waved around nothin'... they've used that thing so much it's in danger of wearing out.

[Keith]

I think about the time the robotech license degraded from cross platform console games, to cellphone games, is about when the franchise died.

[Smegalot]

But it seems to be a long painful death...

[Keith]

But it seems to be a long painful death...

No, I believe the legal term for the current state of the franchise, is "Weekend At Bernies"