HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

So who would be Lazlo Zand?

Worst character EVAR!!!! I believe that he was "exclusive" to the novelisations, and was part of that whole "protoculture shaping" thing or whatever it was, that took up a lot of page space in the novelisations but never appeared in anything that had been animated.

It made the Southern Cross novelisations an especially hard read......

[Keith]

I think that is one of the things that people on both sides of the respective fandoms forget, that the situations surrounding both franchises are children of circumstance (Certain management issues not withstanding). In the case of BW, the financial self sufficiency wasn't there for them at the time thus leading to the various deals that we know of now. With HG, the circumstances of TV broadcasting stipulations led to the use of the three series. People often blame Macek for what he did but in many ways he was a very big anime fan. If I am not mistaken the original goal was a straight forward dub with only name changes. Also he helped save many of the original cells to Akira that are now in a museum (I believe in Ohio, but not sure).

In the end, it seems various circumstances from the 80's have had the long term effect that we have now.

There was no stipulation that required them to mesh shows together, that was a "choice." Because they went for a specific syndication bracket, and because they decidfed against going under a main anthology header "robotech" with different shows carried within it, they bogged themselves down with the hassle of trying to tie together 3 unrelated shows.

[Dynaman]

It would depend on the kind of agreement. Most wouldn't... But then again, I don't think many try to be in the situation that BW was in. BW made its mistake by not having enough cash/backing/promotional opportunities for the project. It was either scrap the entire project when so much time/effort/money was already done or have someone else help finance it. They choose the latter and here we are.

I didn't mean the deal between BW and Tatsunoko which was required for BW to get the show off the ground, I meant the one between Tats (or BW - or whoever it was) and HG, there was no need for them to sign away so many merchandising rights for so long a time. I could see if the Japanese companies had a clause that allowed HG to use the rights but not "own" them (not talking about the copyright issues, just the merchandising rights).

[azrael]

I didn't mean the deal between BW and Tatsunoko which was required for BW to get the show off the ground, I meant the one between Tats (or BW - or whoever it was) and HG, there was no need for them to sign away so many merchandising rights for so long a time. I could see if the Japanese companies had a clause that allowed HG to use the rights but not "own" them (not talking about the copyright issues, just the merchandising rights).

It was between Tatsunoko and HG. BW was never involved in that negotiation.

Do companies still do that? Yes. Do companies still do it for so long? Probably not. Tatsunoko owns those merchandising rights so they can do whatever they want with those. All HG has to do is literally slap the "Macross" name on 1 product, show they are enforcing their trademark, and renew it every 10 years to maintain the trademark. HG is using those rights they purchased from Tatsunoko. They don't "own" it and Tatsunoko could buy back HG's portion of the agreement at any time. But since neither side is moving, we're still at the same spot we were for almost 10 years.

[mrhillz]

It was between Tatsunoko and HG. BW was never involved in that negotiation.

Do companies still do that? Yes. Do companies still do it for so long? Probably not. Tatsunoko owns those merchandising rights so they can do whatever they want with those. All HG has to do is literally slap the "Macross" name on 1 product, show they are enforcing their trademark, and renew it every 10 years to maintain the trademark. HG is using those rights they purchased from Tatsunoko. They don't "own" it and Tatsunoko could buy back HG's portion of the agreement at any time. But since neither side is moving, we're still at the same spot we were for almost 10 years.

But what about the Toynami 1/100 valks. If they release any this year, could that screw things up? Or would it have to be something from HG themselves.

[azrael]

But what about the Toynami 1/100 valks. If they release any this year, could that screw things up? Or would it have to be something from HG themselves.

IIRC, Toynami is producing those toys for HG, so there's no problem.

[Dynaman]

HG is using those rights they purchased from Tatsunoko. They don't "own" it and Tatsunoko could buy back HG's portion of the agreement at any time.

Unless Tats has the ability to pull the rights from HG, wether HG wants them to or not, then HG in effect owns them for all intents and purposes. The only right they don't appear to have (or have not exercised) is the right to transfer what they bought.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Dynaman

[Jasonc]

I was just listening to a couple of whacked out RT fans talking about how HG can use the Macross designs because since it was all brought in with Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, it makes no sense to them that HG can use those designs, but not Macross. I heard that, and just about died laughing. Southern Cross and MOSPEADA weren't in the court cases that SDF Macross was in, so those would have no bearing on the Macross rulings. Furthermore, Southern Cross and MOSPEADA weren't from Big West, were they? Really, why try to rationalize and twist facts to make them work, when reality is proving a whole different thing? They don't even believe HG legal, when they stray away from using Macross desings. OK, that was my input for the day, carry on.

[azrael]

Furthermore, Southern Cross and MOSPEADA weren't from Big West, were they?

No. Southern Cross was made and produced by Tatsunoko. Big West did some promotion for it but that's about it. Mospeada was made by Artmic and produced by Tatsunoko.

Really, why try to rationalize and twist facts to make them work, when reality is proving a whole different thing? They don't even believe HG legal, when they stray away from using Macross desings.

Nostalgia is the driving force these days. And as many people have mentioned, nostalgia only goes so far before they need to bring in new fans.

[Jasonc]

No. Southern Cross was made and produced by Tatsunoko. Big West did some promotion for it but that's about it. Mospeada was made by Artmic and produced by Tatsunoko.

Nostalgia is the driving force these days. And as many people have mentioned, nostalgia only goes so far before they need to bring in new fans.

Yeah, that's what I thought. They are, once again, trying to lump in half-assed truths to fit their argument against what most her already know. For some reason, they feel they need to argue this point to try to prove people wrong in this, but I can see where they are trying to make this work. The thinking, "If HG can use Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, they can use Macross" seems like a very ignorant way to rationalize an argument. As the saying goes, "If common sense is so common, how come so few have it?" rings true once again.

Thanks, Az for the Artmic and Tats info. Reinforces the idea of some people really needing to think before they open their flaps.

[Keith]

Fastest way to shut down any robotech zealot, is to simply ask "well, if HG can use whatever they want, and release whatever they want, then why haven't they!" End of story.

[Legioss]

Fastest way to shut down any robotech zealot, is to simply ask "well, if HG can use whatever they want, and release whatever they want, then why haven't they!" End of story.

Doesn't even faze em. They'll give you Sentinels as an example of HG using Macross designs. Tommy said it so only a lying Macross purist would say it wasn't true.

[Seto Kaiba]

Doesn't even faze em. They'll give you Sentinels as an example of HG using Macross designs. Tommy said it so only a lying Macross purist would say it wasn't true.

Unless you also point out that Carl Macek himself said that Harmony Gold had to have faux-Macross designs made for Sentinels by Tatsunoko because they couldn't use the ones from Macross series at his Robocon 10 interview, transcripts of which were printed in multiple Robotech comics from that year... then they run to the moderators for a banhammer.

[ps99042]

Unless you also point out that Carl Macek himself said that Harmony Gold had to have faux-Macross designs made for Sentinels by Tatsunoko because they couldn't use the ones from Macross series at his Robocon 10 interview, transcripts of which were printed in multiple Robotech comics from that year... then they run to the moderators for a banhammer.

Well, obviously the Robocon 10 comments were taken out of context or transcribed incorrectly. Don't forget how effective the banhammer is as well. Now, there's almost no traffic to the rt.com site which just proves Kevin's point that it's a bad idea to show the sidequel trailer online.

[Keith]

And hell, "The Sentinels" is the biggest argument against HG being able to use Macross designs.

-Bootleg DYRL flight suits...a bit dubious, but too badly animated to compare.

-Character deisgns were "all" unrecognizable. Yes Max had blue hair & glasses, but looked nothing alike. Milia looked like a very masculine feemale biker of androgenous persuation.

-Misa looked like, well, let's just say it, sh!t.

-Hikaru looked like super generic badly drawn proto-bishonen with hair over his eye.

-Britai had a freakin' bucket over his head, just to be sure they didn't get sued for the eyeplate prostesis.

-Exedore was a short purple dude with major male pattern baldness.

-The SDF-3 was the prototype for Exosquad's exocarriers, non transformable, & bulgy.

-Minmay was arguably the least terrible of the redesigns.

The only thing that looked like "Macross" in that movie, were the stock footage clips inserted. At this point, I doubt HG could even get away with inserting stock footage into a newer production. Hell, take a look at "the shadow chronicles," and the only reason you would ever guess that 'Rick Hunter" is who he is, is because they call him by name.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Keith

[Legioss]

Sentinels actually does use a few copyrights owned by Big West, the names which are spelled different but said the same way. Lynn Minmei has her Macross name and still looks kind of like the Macross character. I don't see a way to claim it's a new character. That's obviously Minmei/Minmay in a different art style with her hair down. A handful of character names from Macross are also no coincidence. But these guys are saying Tatsunoko can do that again, in 2011, because they did it in 1986.

It's like you said, they would have done it in Shadow Chronicles. Marcus would have talked about the Zentraedi in his narration. Maia would have said she's Zentraedi. They can't even say Zentraedi and this was right after releasing Battlecry and a bunch of comic books with Macross characters. Either Harmony Gold's Macross rights for animation have noticeably changed or they've just started respecting those limits and either way it's the same. They're so stupid. They're obsessed with making new movies about a show they know they don't own the designs or names for when they don't have to. WB is dumb too. They really think they've licensed Macross to make a movie with it?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, obviously the Robocon 10 comments were taken out of context or transcribed incorrectly. Don't forget how effective the banhammer is as well. Now, there's almost no traffic to the rt.com site which just proves Kevin's point that it's a bad idea to show the sidequel trailer online.

Yeah, that was exactly how Maverick_LSC reacted to having that pointed out to him, he claimed it was a remark taken out of context and tried to claim that it really meant that Carl Macek didn't want to use the iconic Macross designs. It really drives home a pattern... the most vocal Robotech fans are usually the least knowledgeable. The more you know about it, the less likely you are to actually attempt to defend it as something worthwhile.

And hell, "The Sentinels" is the biggest argument against HG being able to use Macross designs.

[...]

Hell, take a look at "the shadow chronicles," and the only reason you would ever guess that 'Rick Hunter" is who he is, is because they call him by name.

Exactly... and as Carl Macek himself explained, the reason that the cast looks only vaguely like the Macross characters that they're supposed to be and that the factory satellite was redesigned to look nothing like it did in the series is because Harmony Gold had full foreknowledge that they couldn't use the designs from Macross, and tried to work around the problem by having Ippei Kuri and Naito Anmo create new designs for the returning "Macross Saga" cast and mecha to avoid infringing on any copyrights.

Sentinels actually does use a few copyrights owned by Big West, the names which are spelled different but said the same way. Lynn Minmei has her Macross name and still looks kind of like the Macross character. I don't see a way to claim it's a new character. That's obviously Minmei/Minmay in a different art style with her hair down.

As I've explained already, the character was redesigned... the whole goal was to make them look at least vaguely recognizable but remain visibly different from the copyrighted Macross designs Harmony Gold knew they couldn't use. It's walking a fine and rather ethically unsound line, but it was enough to let them mount a modest defense if Big West's lawyers came calling. Then again, it'd really be no exaggeration to say that Robotech itself is about as ethically sound as a knock-off brand like "Sany". The use of some names and terminology doesn't seem to be a huge issue... if it was, they wouldn't have used those names in Sentinels, since the legal issues surrounding their use of Macross was apparently a major issue for the project.

It's like you said, they would have done it in Shadow Chronicles. Marcus would have talked about the Zentraedi in his narration. Maia would have said she's Zentraedi. They can't even say Zentraedi and this was right after releasing Battlecry and a bunch of comic books with Macross characters.

Of course, you have to understand the legal distinction here... Harmony Gold does have the merchandising rights for the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series outside Japan. Comic books and video games are both technically merchandise, and thus Harmony Gold can use the designs of the original Macross series in those as they see fit. The Shadow Chronicles movie isn't a merchandise item, it's a derivative work because it's a motion picture, and thus they couldn't legally use the copyrighted Macross material in it, just like they couldn't use it in Sentinels.

Either Harmony Gold's Macross rights for animation have noticeably changed or they've just started respecting those limits and either way it's the same. They're so stupid. They're obsessed with making new movies about a show they know they don't own the designs or names for when they don't have to. WB is dumb too. They really think they've licensed Macross to make a movie with it?

To be frank... there's no indication that Harmony Gold's rights to the original Macross series have changed. The substance of the court rulings can basically be summed up as "nothing changed". The distribution and merchandising rights to the series weren't affected by the rulings, so Harmony Gold's limited rights to Super Dimension Fortress Macross haven't changed. If the lawsuit did one thing, it seems to have put a scare into Harmony Gold. Notice that the first thing they did for Shadow Chronicles was to use a miniseries of comics to dispose of anything and everything with even a tenuous visible link to Macross. They seem to have been genuinely afraid that using anything that smacked of Macross would have Big West's lawyers laying siege to their offices within a fortnight, because they even got rid of the "safe" but possibly recognizable Sentinels redesigns. They killed off or disposed of the entire surviving Macross Saga cast, and redesigned Rick Hunter so that they only way anyone would know it was meant to be the same guy would be if someone told them. They even made sure that there were no direct references to the Macross Saga in the movie.

Even though there are plenty of areas in Shadow Chronicles where it's clear that Harmony Gold is trying to work around the legal issues by adding Macross-like aspects to their Mospeada-based story, the Shadow Chronicles movie is practically screaming its message of "See! We're staying off your turf! Don't sue us!". The live-action movie is a somewhat different case, since there's no problem with WB using the broad strokes of the Macross Saga story (Zor's Battlefortress and all that), they just can't draw on the iconic visuals of the Macross story. So, of course, they've made it no secret that the live-action movie isn't a direct adaptation, but rather a reimagining. In the unlikely event that the film actually gets made, and Warner Bros and Maguire Entertainment haven't spent the entirety of the last 5 years quietly boggling at the idiocy of buying such a legally problematic license, it'll be nothing like Macross... the broad strokes of the Robotech "Macross Saga" story will be there, but otherwise it will be something completely different by necessity.

Personally, I'm inclined to suspect that WB bought the license with the intent to sit on it so nobody else could use it.

[Renato]

The only thing that looked like "Macross" in that movie, were the stock footage clips inserted.

Don't forget the DYRL-inspired flight suits at the start, though.

[Legioss]

I know they only have the distribution and the merchandise. I was just saying that's how they were being obvious about avoiding Macross copyrights in Shadow Chronicles. If they had the rights, they certainly would have used them in those places in the movie. The Robotech.com cult (tongue twister) claims this isn't the case and HG was avoiding Macross copyrights by coincidence. Either that or they'd say that Rick Hunter being in the movie is proof all your Macross belong to HG, missing the point that it's the names and designs. But yeah, basically we agree.

[taksraven]

Exactly... and as Carl Macek himself explained, the reason that the cast looks only vaguely like the Macross characters that they're supposed to be and that the factory satellite was redesigned to look nothing like it did in the series is because Harmony Gold had full foreknowledge that they couldn't use the designs from Macross, and tried to work around the problem by having Ippei Kuri and Naito Anmo create new designs for the returning "Macross Saga" cast and mecha to avoid infringing on any copyrights.

I dunno what yer talking about, man.......

[Keith]

Don't forget the DYRL-inspired flight suits at the start, though.

I mentioned those. In fact, those were the first things I mentioned.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Keith

[ps99042]

I mentioned those. In fact, those were the first things I mentioned.

I always thought of it more as a transitional uniform design to Southern Cross not that I liked them. But I still think it's ridiculous that Rick Hunter got old so fast in Shadow Chronicles when he looked similar to his Macross design in Sentinels. I've never seen anyone change so dramatically in appearance due to age in real life. Must have been the Protoculture fumes.

[Funkenstein]

I always thought of it more as a transitional uniform design to Southern Cross not that I liked them. But I still think it's ridiculous that Rick Hunter got old so fast in Shadow Chronicles when he looked similar to his Macross design in Sentinels. I've never seen anyone change so dramatically in appearance due to age in real life. Must have been the Protoculture fumes.

Its the pressure to live up to fanboy expectations that made him grow so old, so fast.

[Jasonc]

...

It's like you said, they would have done it in Shadow Chronicles. Marcus would have talked about the Zentraedi in his narration. Maia would have said she's Zentraedi. They can't even say Zentraedi and this was right after releasing Battlecry and a bunch of comic books with Macross characters. Either Harmony Gold's Macross rights for animation have noticeably changed or they've just started respecting those limits and either way it's the same. They're so stupid. They're obsessed with making new movies about a show they know they don't own the designs or names for when they don't have to. WB is dumb too. They really think they've licensed Macross to make a movie with it?

I've been told this by Tommy Yun way back when. It's also been told before that by Carl Macek. Anybody watch the documentary on the Shadow Chronicles DVD? (thought you guys wouldn't have) Well, they cut out my friend and his wife's interview because they mentioned the name Macross, and because their children are named after two of its characters. Then, there was a fan cosplay that was shot with someone dressed as a Valkyrie, and that was cut because they didn't want to get sued for that as well. That's what HG legal team told the HG RT staff during that time.

So, either these lunatic fringe fans are either stupid, or suffer from some serious delusions...either/or.

Its the pressure to live up to fanboy expectations that made him grow so old, so fast.

QUOTED FOR THE F!@#ING TRUTH! LOL

[Tom Bateman]

A lot of truth in this thread recently.

Keith: Fastest way to shut down any robotech zealot, is to simply ask "well, if HG can use whatever they want, and release whatever they want, then why haven't they!" End of story.

Touché, sir. Touché.

Seto Kaiba: Yeah, that was exactly how Maverick_LSC reacted to having that pointed out to him, he claimed it was a remark taken out of context and tried to claim that it really meant that Carl Macek didn't want to use the iconic Macross designs. It really drives home a pattern... the most vocal Robotech fans are usually the least knowledgeable. The more you know about it, the less likely you are to actually attempt to defend it as something worthwhile.

As the organizer of Robocon 10 and someone who spent a lot of time talking with Carl about these very issues, I can assure you, Carl's comments were not taken out of context.

Sentinels designs look that way for a reason, as does RTSC for that matter.

Maverick_LSC doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Seto Kaiba]

I always thought of it more as a transitional uniform design to Southern Cross not that I liked them. But I still think it's ridiculous that Rick Hunter got old so fast in Shadow Chronicles when he looked similar to his Macross design in Sentinels. I've never seen anyone change so dramatically in appearance due to age in real life. Must have been the Protoculture fumes.

Now, the weird thing is that the whole "rapid aging" thing doesn't seem to be just between those two incarnations of the character... in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles miniseries, Rick literally goes COMPLETELY GRAY between panels. Sure, there's a time skip, but he goes from having a no gray at all in one panel to totally gray in the next, and it's a span of less than a year in the story too...

As the organizer of Robocon 10 and someone who spent a lot of time talking with Carl about these very issues, I can assure you, Carl's comments were not taken out of context.

Sentinels designs look that way for a reason, as does RTSC for that matter.

Maverick_LSC doesn't know what he's talking about.

Boy, corroborative evidence just doesn't come any more definitive than that.

[azrael]

... Sure, there's a time skip, but he goes from having a no gray at all in one panel to totally gray in the next, and it's a span of less than a year in the story too...

I'll just stick to this:

Its the pressure to live up to fanboy expectations that made him grow so old, so fast.

[Keith]

Now, the weird thing is that the whole "rapid aging" thing doesn't seem to be just between those two incarnations of the character... in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles miniseries, Rick literally goes COMPLETELY GRAY between panels. Sure, there's a time skip, but he goes from having a no gray at all in one panel to totally gray in the next, and it's a span of less than a year in the story too...

Clearly Rick Hunter ran out of his "Just For Men" gel, and was forced to let his true colors show.

[Renato]

I mentioned those. In fact, those were the first things I mentioned.

Oh yeah. Oops. Sorry!

[terry the lone wolf]

Now, the weird thing is that the whole "rapid aging" thing doesn't seem to be just between those two incarnations of the character... in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles miniseries, Rick literally goes COMPLETELY GRAY between panels. Sure, there's a time skip, but he goes from having a no gray at all in one panel to totally gray in the next, and it's a span of less than a year in the story too...

Boy, corroborative evidence just doesn't come any more definitive than that.

I thought the graying was due to stress over Lisa getting badly hurt & losing their child and not really a aging issue.

[Smegalot]

But that fact still remains that they changed the characters to not look at all like there orginal Macross Counter parts. ANd I agree how the Zentradi and the original war was not talked about at all in the RTSC and Rick was the only charcter that has survived the rest were from Southern Cross and mosepeda. And Rick didn't really look like a Rick.....

So it does seem that they do not want to have any refence to Macross shown in there anime that they produce. Sentinels was early as not many people really know about Macross in those days. But they don't seem to want to show any of it now. Or even refer to it in any of there animated work. But they still hold on to it for reasons unknown....lol

Still I have never watched a franchise slowly die before. So it is interesting to see what they do.

My 2 cents worth

[VF5SS]

robotech is dead. what are you guys even arguing anymore

[Keith]

robotech is dead. what are you guys even arguing anymore

Because even though Robotech is dead, HG's stranglehold on all things Macross that they shouldn't be interfearing with isn't.

[Einherjar]

robotech is dead. what are you guys even arguing anymore

Apparently, it's not in China. Then again, Astro Plan, meh.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Einherjar

[Darkwater]

After hearing about this poo for years, here's what I took away from it.

-If it's something that takes place within the Macross Saga (Battlecry, various Wildstorm comics, etc), it's considered a "spin-off" and they could use the original Macross designs.

-It it's something that takes place AFTER the Macross Saga (Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles), they couldn't use the designs, thus the alteration.

I had also heard that much of what HG could and couldn't do was open to interpretation, but HG legal would err on the side of caution. Thus, no mention of any proper name that appeared in Macross (like Zenradi) or any proper name that sounded like one of the ones in Macross. Lisa=Misa, Minmei = Minmay, Max = Maximillion, so they're all a no-go.

I once was at a small meetup of fans at a comic shop with Tommy in 2003 an he mentioned they weren't going to be allowed to use Macross designs in the "new upcoming series." I was like "what about Rick Hunter?" and he responded "It won't look like Rick Hunter."

Tommy has since taken all of that back in public statements, saying that they have the license to use all of the characters, and anything you hear differently in fanboy speculation.